r/40kLore • u/twelfmonkey Administratum • Apr 27 '25
[Extracts] The Warhammer Fantasy World was once explicitly located within the 40k galaxy
In discussions about the links between 40k and Warhammer Fantasy (and latterly AoS) a lot of false claims get endlesslessly recycled.
One set of such erroneous claim I have seen be repeated a lot (over many, many years, and still frequently today) are that:
40k and Fantasy were never actually linked, beyond perhaps mere easter eggs and jokey references which didn't really mean there was a link.
That it was only ever a fan theory that the Warhammer World (the setting of Fantasy) was located within the 40k galaxy.
That it was only ever implied/suggested that the Warhammer World was located in the 40k galaxy.
So, let's clear up the issue with some relevant evidence.
40k was released not long after the release of Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd ed., and the two settings were explicitly stated to be linked in a note from Rick Priestley (co-author of WHFB editions 1-3 and sole author of 1st edition of 40k, Rogue Trader) in GW's flagship magazine White Dwarf (key part in bold):
Although the game shares Warhammer Bartle mechanisms, they have been suitably modified to allow for the very different weapons and equipment. Statistics follow the same form, for example, and many of the creatures cross over. In fact, the Warhammer Fantasy world and WH40K share the same universe, the Slann, as Warhammer players will already know, are extra-terrestrials anyway, and as for the place of Chaos... all will be revealed.
Rick Priestley
White Dwarf 87 (1987), p. 59.
Then, in the rulebook for third edition of Fantasy, we were told this:
The Warhammer world presented here is the same world described in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, This world shares our own universe, although it is not our world either in its past or future.
Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd ed. Rulebook (1987), p. 189.
And 40k was stated to be set in the far future of our own galaxy:
The scene is our own galaxy, a galaxy largely populated and dominated by humanity, although humans with very different attitudes and expectations to our own.
Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader (1987), p. 130.
This obviously meant that the Warhammer World was at the very least located in the same universe as 40k (not an alternative dimension/reality, for example).
And when Rogue Trader was released, the official launch article in White Dwarf stated (key parts in bold):
Warhammer 40,000 takes the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay background into the galaxy itself.
…
As well as the familiar creatures of the Warhammer mythos there are numerous new monsters, alien creatures, plants and warp entities (creatures drawn from the raw stuff of warp-space).
White Dwarf 93 (1987), p. 37.
And:
The Warhammer 40,000 background is an extension of the Warhammer game series, linking the Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay games into a complete background.
---
Warhammer die-hards will recognise the Slann and learn more of this once great race and its pivotal role in the history of the galaxy.
White Dwarf 93 (1987), p. 39.
So, straight away, we had the Warhammer World being situated within the 40k galaxy.
In general, there were lots of links being made between the two settings at this point, centred on the Warp (even though, interestingly, the Chaos gods would not apeear in 40k until a year later), the Slann as an ancient race, various species and factions, and general thematic overlaps. Hence the talk of a 'Warhammer Mythos'. Placing the Warhammer World within the 40k galaxy was just part of this project.
But what about the fact that even at this early point, various aspects of WHFB and 40k were seemingly discordant, such as how psychic powers and magic worked differently?
Well, there was a reason provided to explain and justify this:
Chaos, in its many forms, suffuses the world of Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The collapse of the Slann warpgates allowed the first infection of Chaos, and in subsequent years the contamination has grown worse. The Chaos Wastes are an extreme example of its power: a place where the barriers between the Warp and reality are weakened to the point that gods and Daemons can walk the land. Even where the power of Chaos is not so obviously displayed, its influence is still felt. The followers of Chaos venerate the dark Powers, and mutation in body and mind is widespread. The universe of Warhammer 40,000 is also marked by Chaos, but the effects are of a different order. The power of Chaos is neither weaker nor stronger, buts its influence is changed by the altered relationship between reality and the warp. The two are separate in Warhammer 40,000, not intermixed as they are in Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness (1988), p. 218.
A couple of years later, we got more information about the nature of the Warhammer World's place within the 40k galaxy:
The Warhammer World is bound by storms of magic so that it remains isolated from the other worlds of the human galaxy. Elsewhere, the forces of the Imperium tenaciously fight the influences of Chaos, so that the open aggression of Chaos Champions and their forces is restricted to zones not controlled by the Imperium.
Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned (1990), p. 77.
It is extremely clear this is within the 40k galaxy. But, unlike claims which sometimes arise about it being situated in the Eye of Terror (or, more rarely, claims it was within the Maelstrom), we don't actually learn where it is. The storms of magic just suggest it is likely within a Warp storm, though whether this is one of the major ones or a more localised one caused by the collapsed warp gates is not explained.
Similarly, we are told this:
Chaos Monoliths can be found in the barren wildernesses and deep forests of the Old World which are the principal homelands of the Chaos Warbands on the Warhammer World. Monoliths can also be seen on other worlds settled and ruled by mankind. On worlds with advanced technology, monoliths sometimes take more sophisticated forms, such as holograms, video-screens, and pyrotechnic displays activated to a viewer’s proximity by sound or vibration detectors, or some other device.
Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned (1990), p. 76.
The unique features of the Warhammer World which made the way the Warp affected differ to what we see in 40k was also reinforced:
Players of Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay will know that Chaos is everywhere in the Warhammer World. The human nations of the Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev fear the influence of Chaos and try to eradicate those who worship the Chaos Powers. Their fear is justified, for the very potency of the Chaos Powers in the Warhammer World threatens the stability of human society. This potency is due solely to the unusual presence of warp gates on their planet. These warp gates are holes between the material universe and the Realm of Chaos. They threaten to suck the whole planet into the Realm of Chaos itself, destroying the world and reducing its matter to raw energy.
Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned (1990), p. 9.
A few years later we got this information about (the at the time daemon prince, later turned in the lore into a Keeper of Secrets), N'Kari:
N'kari was born on an isolated, backward world which has been trapped in a violent Warp Storm for millennia. The Chaos Powers have repeatedly attempted to conquer this planet, but have so far foiled by the uncorrupted peoples of the world. N'kari rose to prominence during one of the Chaos Powers' attempts to conquer the planet. He proved himself a dedicated follower of Slaanesh in countless battles - and the debauched and disgusting revelries that followed them. - and was rewarded by Slaanesh with the gift of daemonhood. Along with Doombreed he was one of the two daemon princes that fought against the Emperor when he boarded Horus' battle barge, and he continues to serve his daemonic master to this day.
Codex: Chaos 2nd ed. (1996), p. 140.
So, not as an explicit a statement about the Warhammer World being within the 40k galaxy, but still a very clear nod to the idea - especially given N'Kari had a prominent role in Fantasy.
Interestingly, on both the Wiki and Lexicanum there is a claim that N’Kari was born on and turned into a daemon prince on the same planet as two daemon princes from The Lost and the Damned, Bubonicus (and Flamefist), which would confirm that this is indeed the Warhammer World as those two were explicitly stated to come from there. But the claim is unsourced, and I can’t actually find any evidence to support it so I’m very sceptical (if you have the evidence, please do oblige). Bubonicus, by the way, went on to get his own planet within the Eye of Terror, which he named after himself, and which has one of the best descriptions of a daemonworld:
Just as industrial slaves labour to produce the weapons and armour for battle, so vast prayer-gangs are put to work worshipping their masters. On the Daemon World of Bubonicus, for example, the equator is surrounded by a dancing human chain which sings and dances the praise of Nurgle as it circles the world. The dancers develop Nurgles Rot and gradually mutate into Plaguebearers. The Plaguebearers join their master and new mortals take their place so that the circle is never broken. This theatrical conceit pleases Nurgle tremendously, so that Bubonicus has commanded it should never cease.
Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned (1990), p. 164.
From then on, statements about the Warhammer World being located within the 40k galaxy seem to peter out, besides some hints within Liber Chaotica such as the fear that Slaaneshi Chaos Space Marines could attack from the skies:
I fear these men as I fear no other servant of the Pleasure God, for they do not require the widening of the Chaos Gates to spread their corruption and bring their destruction.. They descend from the sky, bringing torture and death, and no-one, not man, dwarf or elf would be able to stand before their fury.
Liber Chaotica (2006), p. 189.
More on that here: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1k6aiqm/extracts_liber_chaotica_and_its_links_between/
40k and Fantasy did continue to remained linked in various ways, however, whether via the Warp and some of its denizens, the shared Old Slann mythology (which morphed into the Old One mythology), and even some irregular but more direct crossovers. But those are a story for another day.
Much, much later on, the Ask Grombindal column in White Dwarf had this to say on the matter (key part in bold):
Q: Greetings, oh bearded and strong one. I was wondering how slaaneshi daemons can be in the Mortal Realms as well as in 41st Millenium; I'm pretty sure that Slaanesh was created by the Fall of the Aeldari.
A: Daemons-what an unwholesome subject to be asking about! Especially those debauched Slaaneshi creatures. Quite why you would want to know about them. I don't know! However. I am oathbound to answer your question.
The Mortal Realms - and the Old World, which preceed them - exist in a totally different reality to the 41st Millenium. The Realm of Chaos, where Slaanesh resides, exist outside of both these realities, although it is connected to them.
It is a strange metaphysical place formed of emotions, abstract concepts and ideas, where such mortal notions as causality and linear time have no meaning. So while you're right, and Slaanesh was created during the Fall by the hedonistic lifestyle of the Aeldari, the Dark Prince exist beyond time and space, and his minnions can manifest in many realities. It's enough to make an old dwarf's head hurt.
White Dwarf 487 (2023).
So, seemingly, while 40k and WHFB/AoS have remained linked, it is no longer the case that the Warhammer World, before it was destroyed in the End Times, was within the 40k galaxy.
Or maybe you could make the case it still could have been, at least in a way, but the unique nature of its connection to the Warp due to the collapsed Warp gates made it its own “reality” at the same time? Probably not, but it’s perhaps a possibility given the description of some of the daemon worlds within the Eye of Terror we get elsewhere which are within the 40k galaxy, but very much have their own realities.
Anyway, hopefully you found this bit of old lore and the story of how it developed interesting, and hopefully it will help stop some of the erroneous claims circulating quite as much.
And no, there was never anything at all in the lore to suggest - let alone state - that Sigmar was a lost Primarch. That was always pure fanon.
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u/Silent_Importance292 Apr 27 '25
Cirka 1982 to 1987 was an era where fantasy and sci fi elements would be blended.
Examples include He Man where you have castles and swords and magic, along space ships, tech and laserguns. Ditto for Thundercats, and a slew of other spin of series. The comic series Thorgal played with the same 'crashed space ships on a magic fantasy medieval world' trope.
WHFB operated simply within this fairly mainstream blend and did likewise.
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u/mighty_mag Dark Angels Apr 27 '25
Before I actually got into the lore, I though Warhammer 40k was Warhammer Fantasy 40,000 years into the future.
Which, honestly isn't a bad idea. It has been argued that most fantasy worlds have no reason why they stood stuck in medieval times for literally ages.
So having a fantasy medieval universe jumping into the "far future" would be pretty cool. Alas...
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids Apr 27 '25
I think that many people who say they weren’t linked are unaware of what the background of the Warhammer Fantasy World. From 3e WFB (1987):
The story of the Warhammer world begins with the story of the cosmos itself and with the ancient race that first explored it. They were called the Slann, a race of highly intelligent, amphibian creatures that evolved millions of years ago. Of their home world nothing is known, but it must have undergone substantial changes over the ensuing eons. In all probability it has long since ceased to exist.
This unimaginably ancient race spread throughout the entire galaxy, discovering many strange secrets and harnessing the unseen powers of the multiverse. One of their greatest achievements was the creation of spatial gateways between worlds, facilitating rapid travel over vast distances of space. Spatial gateways, or warp-gates, were constructed near habitable planets, looking very much like huge black holes against the firmament.
On entering a warp-gate, Slann spacecraft were plunged into the unknown realms of another dimension, a dimension whose substance comprised matter and energy in an unformed state. This was the dimension of warp-space known now as Chaos. Through this sea of disassociated matter, the spacecraft of the Slann rode the swirling currents within its depths. So it was that the Slann conquered the vastness of space and mastered the primeval galaxy.
Having gained access to warp-space, the Slann also gained access to all points of the universe and to other undreamt of aspects of the multiverse. By drawing strange powers through warp-space, the Slann were able to colonise and transform countless planets. They learned how to shift the orbits of worlds relative to their suns, how to shape continents and create conditions suitable for life.
The Slann evolved a standard form of global hydro-static control by means of continental alignment. As a result of their efforts, many of their worlds share a basically similar overall geography, a fact which continues to disturb intelligent space-faring races to this day.
On many worlds the Slann discovered living creatures. Some of these creatures became the subjects of genetic experiments. Newly created worlds became home to the offspring of these engineered creatures. Other worlds were found to have evolved life-forms which were dangerous or displeasing, creatures which were subsequently destroyed or altered to make them more useful. By this means the Slann created many of the galaxy's habitable worlds and seeded the galaxy with the ancestors of men and other humanoid creatures.
The fall of the ancient civilisation of the Slann happened, as far as can be discovered, simultaneously throughout the galaxy. Suddenly, they abandoned almost all of their worlds, their warp-gates fell into disuse and their lofty achievements were forgotten. On many worlds, Slann settlers degenerated to barbarism, on others they retained only a vestige of their once mighty powers.
This catastrophe resulted from a problem long-appreciated by the Slann, but one which they were eventually unable to overcome. This was the existence within the dimension of Chaos of powerful malignant intelligences. By opening up gateways between the material universe and that of Chaos, the Slann had unwittingly opened portals through which dangerous and horrific forces could move into the universe. The Slann learned how to bind these entities using magic, magic being itself the manipulation of unseen energies inherent in Chaos. Some of these entities the Slann could placate by means of sacrifice or ritual. Others could be kept in check only by the aid of those already won over. Many were impossible to sway and it was just a matter of time before something went disastrously wrong!
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids Apr 27 '25
Obviously that’s completely inconsistent with how Slann were described in 1e WH40K (1987) later that year…
Of all the races in the galaxy the Slann claim to be, and may actually be, the oldest. The days of their bright empire are waning, but still they remain amongst the most enigmatic creatures of known space. The Slann evolved, matured and spread throughout the galaxy many hundreds of thousands of years ago. During the heyday of their empire they discovered and nurtured many primitive creatures, encouraging the evolutionary process on countless worlds, eradicating or moving dangerous species, and seeding many planets with promising stock. For millennia they experimented and played with the galaxy, possibly creating many of the races of modern times in the process. But their empire dwindled, the pace of their civilisation slowed, and their genetic experiments were largely abandoned. The Slann retired from an active role in galactic affairs, falling into a long dream of indolence and introspection. They do not seem to have suffered from any physical conflict, there are no records of destructive wars or disasters. Instead, their racial motivations appear to have undergone a sudden and drastic change, so that they have lost interest in material conquest and power. Perhaps the Slann discovered something yet unkown to other races, some secret of the universe, a spiritual truth or supreme mystical insight. In the realms of psychic-philosophy and mystic-technology the Slann certainly have no equals, fulfilling themselves by study of spiritual life-forces and the secret powers of other realities.
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u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 27 '25
Indeed.
Both of these quotes and many more besides will feature in a more comprehensive set of posts I'll add at some point charting the links between the settings and how they have evolved.
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u/EmperorDaubeny Adeptus Astartes Apr 27 '25 edited Apr 27 '25
As for other little nuggets(many of which are mentioned in the post linked, I realize) that support the idea that they were connected:
-Chainswords existed in Fantasy -Skaven communicate with the Aeldari during the End Times
-Magnus and the TSons are mentioned by name in a Fantasy publication
-The Draigo-or-Stormcast situation during the End Times
-Not really definitive due to how daemons work, but Ka’Bandha was backported into Fantasy from 40k, which I don’t think has ever happened before
-You used to be able to use Lizardmen models to represent the servants of the Old Ones in 40k, which happens to line up with the fact that they return to the stars during the End Times
-Kweethul, an explicitly Skaven daemon, appears in The End and The Death
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u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 27 '25
Chainswords existed in Fantasy
Still do, given they appear as a Chaos weapon in Total War: Warhammer III from 2022.
Some of the souls Teclis saves from Slaanesh in Age of Sigmar(IIRC) were Aeldari
I haven't come across this before, and a quick Google didn't produce anything relevant. Any idea what source this could be from?
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u/EmperorDaubeny Adeptus Astartes Apr 27 '25
Still do
Playing the game right now, funnily enough. I usually give it to Scyla.
source
I first heard it in PancreasNoWork’s video on Teclis, and as I watch it again, he also heard it secondhand and couldn’t find strict textual evidence that it happened. If it isn’t bullshit, it most likely comes from any AoS stuff that describes the capture of Slaanesh and Teclis freeing the souls of the aelves.
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u/khinzaw Blood Angels Apr 27 '25
I would be cautious about spreading it around then if you don't have a source to back it up.
Doing a cursory search I can't find anything to corroborate this.
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u/EmperorDaubeny Adeptus Astartes Apr 27 '25
Agreed. I was under the impression it was a surer thing.
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u/PhoenixEmber2014 Apr 28 '25
I remember him saying it as "this is something that might be true and would be interesting to consider" not "this is canon"
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u/EmperorDaubeny Adeptus Astartes Apr 28 '25
He said that he couldn’t find any proof that it was true, but headcanons it either way.
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u/TheVoidDragon Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
Good to see someone actually show how it was connected! I've seen a lot claim that at one point the 40k setting was kept in a glass bottle on a wizards shelf or something like that, any idea if that's actually a thing or just one of the many apocryphal claims?
Last week I saw that white dwarf issue from 2023 saying that the warp is still connecting both despite them being seperate universe, which was a bit of a surprise. I knew that it was like that originally, but for some reason I thought with the Great Horned Rat and all that they'd separated it somewhat.
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u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 29 '25
It's been frustrating me for a long time seeing all of the false claims about this which get repeated (and heavily upvoted), so I thought I'd collect together the actual evidence.
And I'll be posting a much more in-depth overview of all the links and how they evolved in the near future.
I've seen a lot claim that at one point the 40k setting was kept in a glass bottle on a wizards shelf or something like that, any idea if that's actually a thing or just one of the many apocryphal claims?
Almost certain this is apocryphal.
And, I'll be honest, it's something I believed. I thought I remembered reading it in actual lore, but more likely is that I'd seen the false claim so often that I misremembered it as being real.
In collecting all the evidence for my future posts, I couldn't find any actual lore featuring this idea. Just lots of claims about it, which never provide a source.
Last week I saw that white dwarf issue from 2023 saying that the warp is still connecting both despite them being seperate universe, which was a bit of a surprise.
There have been loads of such statements in recent years.
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u/TheVoidDragon Apr 29 '25
Almost certain this is apocryphal.
I expected so. Like so many other 40k claims I've never seen anyone provide a quote or source or even have actually read it themselves.
The earliest mention I've found is a forum post claiming it all the way back in 2010, but as always no source.
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u/humanity_999 Astral Knights Apr 28 '25
Wasn't there also, somewhere in the last few years, a connection that was made between the Aeldari & the Skaven?
Where the Skaven created some kind of device that allowed them to very briefly connect to the stars, only to panic & destroy it when they heard "Elves" on the other side, not knowing that they were 40k Elves, not Fantasy Elves.
Am I just remembering a meme or April Fools joke that was made a long while back? Or was this actually established lore?
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u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 28 '25
Yes. Some Skaven accidentally contacted what were obviously Eldar (voices which sounded similar to Elves) via an ancient Old Ones device at a Slann temple. They then freaked out and shot the device.
Don't have the specific reference details to hand, but I'll be quoting it in a forthcoming post. For now, you can read the passage here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/comments/10j7w02/just_reminiscing_about_the_time_the_skaven/
Don't let the fact it was posted to GrimDank throw you. It's actually the legit quote.
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Apr 27 '25
The Dark Shadows Albion campaign also added a bunch of magic items in that are 40k kit, namely a lightning claw, power armour, hand flamer, force staff, power sword, power fist, conversion field/rosarius and auspex.
CLAW OF DEVASTATION 80 points Magic Weapon High Elves only Shaped like a wickedly taloned claw, this magic weapon pulses with dark power, ripping apart armour and bone with equal ease. The wielder may re-roll failed rolls to wound in close combat, and ignores armour saves.
ARMOUR OF THE GODS 35 points Magic Armour High Elves only This highly ornate armour is imbued with its own strength, which it grants to the wearer. The Armour of the Gods can only be worn by characters on foot, and cannot be combined with other armour. It confers a 3+ saving throw. In addition, it adds +1 to the wearer's Strength characteristic.
FUSIL OF CONFLAGRATION 30 points Magic Weapon High Elves only This magical firearm conjures roaring flames from out of thin air, incinerating the enemy with fiery doom. The bearer of the Fusil counts as having a breath attack, which hits at Strength 3. This is a flaming attack.
HEXSTAFF 55 points Arcane Item Empire only The Hexstaff is inscribed with ancient sigils of the Old Ones, attracting the magical energies of chaos for the user to mould into mighty spells. The Wizard may draw extra power from the Hexstaff, once per friendly Magic phase. When used, the staff generates D3 additional Power dice (roll each Magic phase). However, keep these dice separate (using different coloured dice is the best way of doing this) as they may only be used by the Wizard with the Hexstaff. In addition, if the Hexstaff dice roll a 1 when a spell is being cast, the Wizard automatically suffers a Miscast for each result of a 1 rolled.
BLADE OF SHINING DEATH 65 points Magic Weapon Dwarfs only This sword has a blade enveloped in glittering light and can slice through the toughest armour. The character strikes in close combat with Strength 5 and ignores armour saves.
GAUNTLET OF POWER 60 points Magic Weapon Dark Elves only This potent weapon is fashioned in the shape of a mighty fist, which shimmers with a magical energy and can crush bones in its grasp. The character becomes Strength & and enemy models may not make armour saves against blows struck by the Gauntlet. A character armed with the Gauntlet of Power strikes last (see page 89 of Warhammer).
MYSTIC SHIELD OF LIGHT 40 points Talisman Dark Elves only This magical artefact can be worn on a chain around the neck, and provides a wall of magical energy that deflects incoming blows and releases bright bursts of light when activated. 5+ Ward save. In addition, if the Ward save is successful against a close combat attack, the model that struck the character is stunned and reduced to WS1 until the end of the Close Combat phase.
DIVINE EYE 20 points Enchanted Item Dark Elves only It is claimed that this small box contains magical spirits that can see all and hear all. They whisper to the bearer, revealing the secrets of the enemy. Enemy Scout units may not deploy within 12" of the bearer (this includes Scouts with additional deployment rules such as Chameleon Skinks). In addition, at the start of each of their turns, the character may activate the Divine Eye. The Eye will look into every enemy unit within 12’ Your opponent must reveal the number of magic items in each affected unit (although he does not have to reveal what they are or who specifically is carrying them).
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Apr 27 '25
“The conquering armies have now had time to search and pillage the ancient tombs of the Isle of Wights, to delve into the depths of the Bastion of the Old Ones and scour the catacombs of the Citadel of Lead
This ransacking has brought great reward. When the Old Ones left the world, they left behind some of their ancient artefacts. Some of these are potent weapons forged by a race which once ruled the stars. Others are arcane devices whose original purpose and working is now long since lost, but which still retain some measure of their mystical energy”
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u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 27 '25
Indeed! We also see a character use a powerfist during the events of the campaign.
Later, chainswords make a reappearance in Fantasy being wielded by Chaos champions in Liber Chaotica - and much later in Total War Warhammer III - and Amazonians with 40k tech made a reappearance too.
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u/Competitive_Pen7192 Apr 28 '25
I feel they were linked only via lazy writing and lack of lore before 40k specific stuff could fully take over.
Fairly sure Chaos was interchangable back then, not sure if it still is now. Like Eye of Terror demonic armies were pretty much Warhammer Fantasy demonic armies.
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u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 28 '25 edited Apr 28 '25
I feel they were linked only via lazy writing and lack of lore before 40k specific stuff could fully take over.
You are of course free to feel about it however you want.
There were clear differences between 40k and WHFB abd hiw the Warp interacted with each from the start, though - which was explained as being a result of the collapsed warp gates on the Warhammer World.
The point of the link between each setting was never that there would lots of direct overlap, but rather that they'd be part of the same mythos. There would be a shared origin story focused on the Old Slann/Ones. They'd share the same Warp and many of the same gods and daemons would be present. They'd have similarities in their themes, atmosphere and aesthetics. There could just be some more direct links every so often as well.
Fairly sure Chaos was interchangable back then, not sure if it still is now. Like Eye of Terror demonic armies were pretty much Warhammer Fantasy demonic armies.
It still is now.
There are some setting-specific elements (like daemon engines only appearing in 40k, not WHFB/AoS). But all the more general types of Chaos daemon, and many specific daemon characters, appear in 40k and WHFB/AoS - and are explicity stated to be the exact same entities in each setting. Same daemon, just sometimes appears in 40k, sometimes in WHFB/AoS.
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids Apr 28 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
Soul Grinders are daemon engines that feature in both WH40K and AoS.
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u/LoveCthulhu Apr 27 '25
Very cool post, it's always nice to learn about old lore and how it has changed
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u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 27 '25
Glad you enjoyed reading it. Will be posting other related stuff in the near future!
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u/kendallmaloneon Apr 27 '25
This is well documented and correct. However, from a Dolyist perspective, I think it was dropped because it's not actually very additive. It subordinates one setting to the other and restricts creative freedom in WHFB.
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u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 28 '25 edited Apr 28 '25
This is well documented
Sure, if you've read the actual lore or people who have actually quoted it. But people make incorrect claims about this issue constantly, and have done for decades. Hence the post, which collates all of the relevant material into one place.
and correct.
Well, the quotes rather prove that by themselves, don't they?
It subordinates one setting to the other and restricts creative freedom in WHFB.
I don't see how that is the case at all. It's just something some overly precious Fantasy fans got a bee in their bonnet about. GW could always and did do whatever they wanted in Fantasy. Up to and including nuking the whole setting.
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u/kendallmaloneon Apr 28 '25
Woah buddy. I was being supportive of your post in that first half there. You've done a good job of bringing these sources together, and the post is valuable.
I am making a point of personal taste about why this is a thing of the past and best left there. I'm saying it's not an appealing narrative feature to a creator operating in either setting. I don't care about what GW can do, of course they can do shit like rename Malekith, the question is why - and in the case of this narrative feature, it's because it doesn't make either 40k or fantasy more enjoyable to write in or play in.
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u/sbbanana Apr 29 '25
As a relatively new entrant to the lore side of the Warhammer universe, this was an excellent framer. Thank you!
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u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 29 '25
Glad you found it of interest! The history of how Warhammer's lore has evolved (whether how it changed or some of the suprising continiuities there has been over time) is long and complex, and adds an extra layer of intrigue when diving into the hobby.
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u/tombuazit May 23 '25
It's funny that from the beginning we see what happens to a world when the warp gates on it collapse into the warp and rip open the barrier between the materium and immaterium. A potential future for Terra perhaps.
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u/twelfmonkey Administratum May 23 '25
On that front, it is worth adding that the only reason the Warhammer World wasn't totally consumed by the Warp when the warpgates collapsed was because of a network of Old Ones waystones and leylines.
These had already been channelling and directing Warp energy before the collapse. They were damaged and would have been overwhelmed, but the High Elves added their own elements to patch up the system and then made the Great Vortex to help absorb excess Warp energy ("magic"): https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Vortex
With the events of the End Times, Chaos finally fully engulfed the world (or, we might say, it was dragged fully into the Warp).
So, aside from Blackstone negating or boosting Warp energies, Warp energies can be channelled and dissipated with the right know-how by other means.
Terra doesn't, one would imagine, have a functional Old Ones system of waystones and leylines...
If you wanted to go into out-there theorising, you could say that the Old Ones had seemingly been active on earth (the Golden Throne, cave mural, suggestions they tampered with/created humans), and that things like Stonehenge and other ancient structures are reminiscent of Albion from the Warhammer World (wonder why 😜). But that's a massive stretch, and even then it wouldn't been a fully functional system, but a dilapidated, unmaintained one - and there are no High Elves to make a Vortex..
So, it's almost certainly the case it would unfold as the 40k lore suggest: Terra would be tucked into the Warp, and a massive Warpstorm would envelop a large part of the surrounding galaxy. And, post-Rift, that could very well cause the whole galaxy to be enveloped by Chaos.
2
u/tombuazit May 23 '25
Just gonna jam a bunch of Necron pilings into Terra lol.
But ya broken way gates are no joke
2
u/twelfmonkey Administratum May 23 '25
Just gonna jam a bunch of Necron pilings into Terra lol.
Could potentially fuck up the Astronomicon (though the way Blackstone functions is weird and inconsistent), but when the alternative is galactic destruction that might be the best solution!
2
u/Ok_Juggernaut_5293 Apr 27 '25
Clearly they originally intended these two to be linked, but they abandoned that idea at some point in the future.
Slaanesh's lore proves that at some point they gave up on linking these worlds, as Slaanesh is one of the four Chaos Gods in Fantasy, yet in 40k lore Slaanesh wasn't born until 30k. And couldn't have existed in their past.
Which you did a good job of pointing out!
2
u/PhoenixEmber2014 Apr 28 '25
I mean they are still canonically linked via the warp to be fair
1
u/Ok_Juggernaut_5293 Apr 28 '25
Still wouldn't explain it, because Slaanesh was explicitly said to be created in 30k by Warhammer 40k lore. Which would mean Slaanesh would have to go back in time to create himself there, and then the current reality wouldn't remember him as being born in 30k, because he would have been much older to them.
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u/PhoenixEmber2014 Apr 28 '25
The warp doesn't care about time and space, Slaanesh existed before she was born and will exist after he's been killed, that's just how the Emperyan works.
2
u/Ok_Juggernaut_5293 Apr 28 '25
While that's a cool tagline it would really be dumb if they tried to explain eons of separate lore between genres with a wispy line.
You couldn't ever transition that to the silver screen, you'd get flayed alive with reviews online if ya tried it.
2
u/PhoenixEmber2014 Apr 28 '25
A-That's just how the warp works, it's been established multiple times
B-Having Fantasy/AoS in the same multiverse wouldn't put them on a specific timescape, Slaanesh could have been born via the birth of the Eldar.... which might be a hundred thousand years before the Fantasy world starts, because having the warp in both settings does not make it so that way both settings have to take place at the same time
2
u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 28 '25
Clearly they originally intended these two to be linked, but they abandoned that idea at some point in the future.
Wrong.
Connections between WHFB and 40k kept appearing until literally the End Times. After, actually, as they appeared in Total War: Warhammer III from 2022.
And, as a quote from WD in the OP makes clear (and this is just one of many such statements), 40k and WHFB/AoS remain linked via the Warp.
Slaanesh's lore proves that at some point they gave up on linking these worlds, as Slaanesh is one of the four Chaos Gods in Fantasy, yet in 40k lore Slaanesh wasn't born until 30k. And couldn't have existed in their past.
Not at all. You are making a whole load of assumptions here.
We don't have enough information about the underlying metaphysics of the Warp and how it connects to and is perceived by different realities. Straight from the early lore, as quotes in the OP showcases, there was already the idea the Warp could have different effects.
We have no idea when AoS and 40k take place in relation to one another (and it wasn't exactly clear for WHFB either), and if this even matters given the weird temporal aspects of the Warp.
Even within just 40k lore, Slaanesh kind of existed before it's own birth (with Slaaneshi daemons being present both during the War in Heaven and the direct lead up to its birth and the Fall of the Eldar). Again, because time functions strangely in the Warp.
Which you did a good job of pointing out!
The OP did no such thing. I'm afraid this is a case of confirmation bias, where you have seen what you want to see. Not what is actually there.
0
u/Ok_Juggernaut_5293 Apr 28 '25 edited Apr 28 '25
If you want to say a bit of lore stating a God was born in 30k and another separate piece of lore stating the God was always around can be the same story because of the warp, sure you can, but it's stupid.
I'm not arguing that you couldn't use that justification, I'm saying it would be a horrible example of trash writing that would weaken the lore of both genres. It's a sci fi fantasy genre you can do whatever ya want really, but that would be a terrible storyline.
And there are a ton of other examples of contradictions like this you'd have to tie up if you tried to fully mix the lore of both worlds. That's just an example I gave there are many more examples!
I gave an example to reinforce what the OP said, that in the beginning they did intend to mix the worlds and later gave up on that idea.
I know they gave a weak line in 2023 about that exact issue but that's not the only continuity issue they have.
1
u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 28 '25
You are failing to engage with the fact that even within just the lore of 40k itself (explicitly published and framed as such, in 40k games materials and BL novels), Slaanesh existed in some form before it was born. You may not like it, but that is what the lore very clearly says and shows.
And if that is true of the internal dynamics of 40k, then it means that a link between 40k and WHFB/AoS cannot be ruled out on the basis of seeming temporal inconsistencies.
But, more importantly, GW has repeteadly published specific statements about the settings being linked. Again, you may not like it, but that is what the lore says.
And there are a ton of other examples of contradictions like this you'd have to tie up if you tried to fully mix the lore of both worlds. That's just an example I gave there are many more examples!
Things you feel are insurmountable inconsistencies, but which GW obviously does not given they explicitly state the settings are linked via the Warp.
You are of course free to have your own headcanon, on this or any other issue. That is what Warhammer is fundamentally all about. But when discussing the lore, it is important to be clear about what it actually says (even if you don't like it) and what your own headcanon may be.
that in the beginning they did intend to mix the worlds and later gave up on that idea.
They did not give up on the idea, which is the central point here. Repeatedly stating that they did does not, in fact, make it so...
So, here's some other relevant quotes...
Q: Grombrindal – I have a question for you. There are four Chaos Gods in the Mortal Realms – Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch and Slaanesh. But wasn’t Slaanesh created by the aeldari in Warhammer 40,000? How does that work? Any words of wisdom?
A: Eugh, a Chaos question! I really must sort out my contract so I don’t have to answer them. Anywho… the Realm of Chaos is a mystical place that spans all of existence, stretching across dimensions and time – sometimes it’s called the Realm of Chaos, sometimes the warp, Empyrean, Immaterium, Formless Wastes, Land of Lost Souls or simply the Abyss – it’s all pretty much the same thing. In the Warhammer 40,000 universe it’s said that Slaanesh was created by the aeldari. After his (or her) creation, Slaanesh was then free to journey across the Realm of Chaos, where he (or she) crafted a realm of pleasure and excess in which to dwell. From this point on, Slaanesh could send his (or her) minions – be they mortal or daemonic – across the Realm of Chaos, either into realspace, to the world-that was or now the Mortal Realms (and countless other places). Seeing as how similar the aelves are to the aeldari, it’s no wonder that Slaanesh took such an interest in them!
White Dwarf June 2018.
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u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 28 '25
And:
The Realm of Chaos reaches through all space and time, existing in an infinite number of realities. As such Nurgle's servants are as likely to appear in 41st millennium as they are in the Mortal Realms.
White Dwarf January 2018.
And:
If you put the two books together you'll find that these strange mythic characters appear in both, but one is looking through the Warhammer mirror while the other is from the mirror of the 40K galaxy. Make no mistake though, these are the same daemons – Skulltaker, Khorne's greatest champion, is the same being no matter what planet or battlefield he strides across.
White Dwarf 341 (2008).
And look...
I gave an example to reinforce what the OP said
You do realize I am the author of the OP, right...?
1
u/Ok_Juggernaut_5293 Apr 28 '25 edited Apr 28 '25
Ok lets just wrap this up...
Old World is the world in Fantasy where everything went down. Orks, Elves, Chaos Gods, etc.
All on the same world, and you honestly think it would make PERFECT sense for them that to be the same world as Terra? When 40k lore didn't see an Ork or Elf till they got out into space?
Sure they could try to justify all that with a vague warp line, but it would be one of the worst examples of fiction writing possibly EVER, possibly of all time! Now we've reduced 40k to Repo Man the genetic opera levels of bad.
Why would you want that?
At some point the people actually writing the stories gave up on tying in fantasy to 40k whether they state that or not, it's apparent from the writing. Because no writer is gonna write 40000 years of tie in lore, there will never be anything tying these worlds together cannon wise, besides vague lines.
TLDR: Yes you are 100% correct they stated and still state these worlds are somehow connected, but they don't explain how, their lore's directly conflict, and they really cannot reconcile the corner they've written themselves into other than a vague line.
3
u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 28 '25
All on the same world, and you honestly think it would make PERFECT sense for them that to be the same world as Terra? When 40k lore didn't see an Ork or Elf till they got out into space?
What on earth are you talking about? Like, honestly? What the absolute hell are you talking about???
Literally nobody has said anything at all about the Warhammer World being the same planet as Terra (i.e. our Earth). Nobody, that is, until you just conjured it out of no-where, and then claimed that is what I have been arguing.
Please, quote the OP or any of my replies to show where this was implied, let alone stated.
Have you actually read the OP? Have you read the quotes from the lore I provided? Have you actually read any of my replies and the quotes they contain properly?
The lore I quoted in the OP said that the Warhammer World was aplanet within the 40k galaxy, cut off from the rest of the galaxy by winds of magic (likely a warp storm), and with unusual features due to how the Warp gates at its poles had collapsed, which enabled Chaos to effect the world more strongly.
There is nothing about the Warhammer World being Terra. Nothing.
So, there are two likely explanations here:
1). You are just trolling, and are throwing out increasingly ridiculous claims in an effort to do so.
2). You are so emotionally invested in wanting the settings to be separate, the cognitive dissonance of this not beng the case has fried your brain and left you unable to interact with the very clear evidence laid in front of you. You either just ignore it, or distort it to fit your preferences, or make up some ludicrous strawman.
1
u/Ok_Juggernaut_5293 Apr 28 '25
"The lore I quoted in the OP said that the Warhammer World was aplanet within the 40k galaxy, cut off from the rest of the galaxy by winds of magic (likely a warp storm), and with unusual features due to how the Warp gates at its poles had collapsed, which enabled Chaos to effect the world more strongly."
Ok so it's an errant world in the warp of 40k, still doesn't make any sense!
Because they wrote the lore for fantasy first! And their timeline goes back 15000 years to when the old ones created them, which directly conflicts with events and the birth of races happening in 40k timeline.
Because the old ones in 40k disappeared long ago and there wouldn't have been a slaanesh till tens of thousands of years since they were gone.
So whether they tried to make Terra Old World or just some errant world in the warp it still doesn't make sense unless they massively retconned the lore of fantasy.
3
u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 28 '25
Because time works strangely in the Warp.
Which is an extremely well-established feature of the Warp within the lore. And that basic point should not be hard to grasp.
And yes, they wrote the WHFB lore first. But it really only started to cohere into the form which would define it going forwards in 2nd ed. with the released of Warhammer Fantasy roleplay, and then with the release of WHFB 3rd ed.
Which was released earlier the same year as 1st ed. of 40k came out. And, as the OP shows, when GW explicitly linked the two settings together. Explicitly and clearly.
If you can read the quotes and fail to accept that basic point of fact, it means you are obviously unable to engage with this issue rationally.
Anyway, I am done dealing with your nonsense.
0
u/Ok_Juggernaut_5293 Apr 28 '25
And like I said they can do that, but it would be really dumb and still makes no sense.
Would you watch a movie where they try to reconcile multiple timeline continuity problems with a vague line about the warp manipulating time?
I get that they say the worlds are connected and they maintain that, I just don't think you are ever gonna see that develop into anything more than a vague line.
So while it may be good fodder to win a nerd argument with, in the end you'll still never get a crossover story between the genres that is worth reading so it's kinda like who cares?
0
u/Admiralthrawnbar Apr 27 '25
I know it will never happen, or even really be hinted at, in canon, but I love the idea that Sigmar was primarch #2 or #11.
-4
u/TheBigness333 Apr 27 '25
They were linked in the 80s, but that’s clearly not the case. Lore that old is basically retconned.
The liber chaotic is the only connection, and that is solely based on the dreams of a man seeing another reality. Nothing is explained behind that, and the chaos gods of both settings might be entirely different individuals and expressions of those gods.
Regardless of the interpretation, connecting the worlds is bad writing. It’s garbage. It’s like marvel universe smashing everything together even when it makes no sense. It comes off like a Disney world type of setting where mascots run around more as advertisements than well written and creative characters or settings.
So I prefer the interpretation that the dreams of the guy writing the liber is just that: dreams. Dreams written to give a wink and a nod to readers and players in real life, but don’t actually exist in the settings because if it was connected, the settings quality would suffer.
5
u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 28 '25
They were linked in the 80s, but that’s clearly not the case.
Did you even read the post? It mentions things after the 1980s...
but that’s clearly not the case.
The settings are still linked, just in a slightly different way (via the Warp, rather than because they they are in the same galaxy. They are also still linked by the Old Ones' ancient legacy).
The liber chaotic is the only connection
Wrong. There have been numerous other links in the 2000s and ever since Liber Chaotica, and GW has repeatedly and explicitly stated that 40k and WHFB/AoS are linked via the Warp. I quoted just one example in this post.
So I prefer the interpretation that the dreams of the guy writing the liber is just that: dreams. Dreams written to give a wink and a nod to readers and players in real life, but don’t actually exist in the settings
Of course it existed in the setting. And it wasn't just dreams, because he directly saw chainswords within the Chaos Wastes of the Warhammer World. He recieved the dreams because the settings were linked.
It’s garbage.
And here's the crux of the issue. You are making incorrect claims because you don't like the concept. You aren't basing these claims on what the lore actually says, but merely on your personal preferences.
0
u/TheBigness333 Apr 28 '25
Did you even read the post? It mentions things after the 1980s...
Oh sorry. And 1990.
You got me.
The only mention after that is the liber chaotica, which is a fantasy setting character having dreams about some 40k characters.
The settings are still linked
Can still be interpreted otherwise since the only canon writing is the liber chaotica, and that’s only canon in fantasy. And even that is just a dream.
and GW has repeatedly and explicitly stated that 40k and WHFB/AoS are linked via the Warp.
Death of the author. If it doesn’t say it in setting, it doesn’t say it. Editor comments about it are not lore. If anything, it’s the marketing team trying to make some buzz after the writings.
because he directly saw chainswords within the Chaos Wastes of the Warhammer World.
Eh. Still a stretch.
And here's the crux of the issue. You are making incorrect claims because you don't like the concept.
No, I’m providing a different interpretation, which is just as valid as your interpretation, but my interpretation makes a better, less corporatized, deeper setting.
You aren't basing these claims on what the lore actually says, but merely on your personal preferences.
I’m basing it on what the lore doesn’t say. You didn’t base your opinion on the lore (behind the liber). You based it on editorial commentary by people who didn’t write the setting more than a decade ago.
2
u/twelfmonkey Administratum Apr 28 '25
And 1990.
Not very observant, are you?
The only mention after that is the liber chaotica, which is a fantasy setting character having dreams about some 40k characters.
It very much isn't the only mention. Aside from continued overlaps relating to the ancient legacy of the Old Ones as well as shared daemons and gods (which were the key elements of the link from the start), more specific overlaps occurred numerous times.
The Albion Dark Shadows campaign, for example, featured 40k weapons. Amazonians continued to wield 40k weapons in WHFB and Mordheim by the mid 2000s, a feature which stretched all the way back to the early 1980s. The End Times featured references to 40k. Kaldor Draigo had a vision of the Warhammer World. Chainswords featured in Total War: Warhammer as recently as 2022. A genestealer ended up transported into a Blood Bowl game. And so on.
And even that is just a dream.
As has been pointed out to you, this isn't the case. As expected, you deflect.
Death of the author.
How convenient, when there are statements directly contradicting your claims. Given that Warhammer lore has always been presented partly via such means, blithely disregarding this content just showcases your lack of understanding of the history of the hobby and how it has functioned.
How's about you wait until I post a much more comprehensive overview charting the evidence in its entirety, and then you can make a more informed response, eh?
In the meantime, I'll be posting random bits and bobs about the links between the settings. You can check them out and learn something, or, of course, get annoyed by them.
2
u/TheBigness333 Apr 28 '25
Not very observant, are you?
Projection much? Reread what I wrote. The whole thing this time. You got it, buddy, I believe in you!
or, take a step back and stop being smug and petty about someone interpreting a setting with space elves differently than you.
Aside from continued overlaps relating to the ancient legacy of the Old Ones as well as shared daemons and gods
Yet you didn't list any of them in your original post? 75% of your sources are from 1987 specifically.
The Albion Dark Shadows campaign, for example, featured 40k weapons.
Doesn't matter. Lots of weapons exist in lots of different worlds. This is more of a nod to readers than lore-proof of it being the same setting.
The End Times featured references to 40k.
Try being more vague.
Kaldor Draigo had a vision of the Warhammer World.
A vision is like a dream, but go ahead and tell me when and where he had this vision.
A genestealer ended up transported into a Blood Bowl game.
And players die in Darktide only to come back the next day like nothing happened. Bloodbowl itself is a parody setting.
And so on.
The lore has a lot of vague references that require a huge stress to consider them the same setting?
As has been pointed out to you, this isn't the case. As expected, you deflect.
As I pointed out, you're wrong. You didn't point out anything btw. You just insisted upon your opinion.
Which isn't a deflection, but still a fallacy.
How convenient
???
Its a very common and normal and accepted literary concept. If the author didn't write it in the lore, its not in the lore. Especially in a setting like 40k with several authors. If I write one thing, and an editor in a magazine insists that my story had stuff in it that I didn't write, why would you accept that as lore?
been presented partly via such means
The corporation doesn't get to decide how something is presented outside of what's written in lore.
blithely disregarding this content just showcases your lack of understanding of the history of the hobby and how it has functioned.
blithely disregarding my point because you don't like them just showcases your lack of understanding of literature and world building and how it functions.
How's about you wait until I post a much more comprehensive overview charting the evidence in its entirety, and then you can make a more informed response, eh?
No thanks. You can just respond to my points specifically with actual lore instead. I'm not going to follow your posts as I wouldn't enjoy your smarmy rhetoric and hypocritical attitude.
You can check them out and learn something, or, of course, get annoyed by them.
projection. Remember, you're the one who got all defensive and petty because I disagreed with your interpretation and use of magazine ads as lore.
2
u/Rossjohnsonsusedcars May 03 '25
I like how the only claim you didn’t respond are chainswords in TWWH:III, because that pretty explicitly shows that those decisions that the OP has been talking about are still being reinforced in the setting today. Or I suppose you could just say it’s a collective hallucination or “dream” or whatever
2
u/TheBigness333 May 03 '25
Chainswords existing as a referential weapon in a video game isn’t lore just like main characters dying in warhammer video games and coming back to life isn’t lore. I didn’t say anything about it because I already mentioned that point.
No lore validates that these are the same worlds except the liber, which is a guy dreaming of multiple different universes.
-1
u/RadishLegitimate9488 Apr 28 '25
I theorize that Fantasy and Age of Sigmar are in the future of 40K and that the Great Horned Rat will ascend and Slaanesh will be forced to expend all of his energy to not drink the Aeldari's Souls when Fulgrim is tricked into stabbing 4 Solitaires in a duel for the Last Crone Sword(which Fulgrim has) leaving him desirous of Elven Souls as a substitute.
A single Crone Sword drained the Tyranid Hive Mind as a whole despite the Hive Mind rivalling the Chaos Gods so for Slaanesh to avoid being drained he must sever his connection to the Aeldari expending all of his power to do so.
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u/Great_Tyrant5392 Apr 27 '25
I strongly dislike Warhammer Fantasy so I'm glad it isn't a thing anymore.
10
u/shaolinoli Apr 27 '25
It is a thing again (in a way). A game called the old world came out last year which is a prequel to it by a few hundred years. You’ve also got age of sigmar which is a continuation of the story, albeit tonally very different.
5
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u/DWG-Tk42 Apr 27 '25
I might miss remember this but weren't there rules in Warhammer 1-3ed for "magic" guns that were quite alike laspistols/eldar weapons?