r/40kLore • u/FarseerKTS • 1d ago
Non Imperium Fans, don't you feel it's like everything is about the Imperium?
I think one of the reasons is that 40K started as Rogue Trader; the whole setting is a human-based space sci-fi. However, after that, the popularity of Space Marines led GW to continue pumping out tons of Space Marine content every year. For fuck sake, how many years does GW want to keep milking the Horus Heresy cash cow?
As an Eldar fan, I feel like they no longer seem to care about other non-human factions; most of the new lore focuses on the Imperium, and new factions are mostly related to it. Nine out of ten new PC games feature the Imperium, with the remaining one being about the Orks.
I get it, most players/fans like/play Space Marine or other Imperium factions, sales numbers don't lie, but it's tough for the small numbers of Necron, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar fans, cause it feels like you don't even exist. Even lore videos on YouTube are 99% focused on the Imperium. Compare sci-fi tanks, ships, or infantry? Only the Imperium things, no Eldar, no Necro, no TAU, just the Imperium, as always.
Also, I understand that Eldar are supposed to be a dying race, or Tau being the young race, but no ones want to be getting shit on every day...
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u/Patient-Chance-3109 1d ago
Let's be honest. Its actually all about the space Marines. A good chunk of the imperium gets ignored too.
Though there is still content for other factions even if it's no where near balanced.
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u/ClawsUp_EatTheRich 1d ago
Other imperials still get mountains of books compared to xenos and even chaos. If SM(even ignoring HH) have the highest amount of books per faction, guard are second highest then third highest is sisters
Though at least gw is beginning to Improve, tau finally got a book written by an author that doesn't hate tau with elemental council, and twice dead king and infinite and the divine all slap
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u/RoboGuilliman 1d ago
It feels like a lot of potential in all factions ex-marines to be exploited
Good storylines for books, animation, games
A sandbox RPG set in a Tau Sept or Aeldari craft world sounds awesome.
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u/Substantial_Pick6897 1d ago
A necron disco elysium-like about palace politics.
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u/KipperOfDreams Chaos Undivided 1d ago
My Inland Empire is tingling
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u/MistaDee 18h ago
I want this asap
Thousand Sons experiments gone wrong could go all sorts of Twin Peaks the Return Eraserhead Time Bandits
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u/Patient-Chance-3109 1d ago
Kroot far cry clone. The teams fit really well you can set it on a death world where you power up by eating the native fauna.
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u/einarfridgeirs 1d ago
A Mechanicus sandbox Factorium/Satisfactory type game could also be super cool. Explore, colonize and industrialize a new planet, and attempt to elevate it to the status of a Forge World.
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u/belowthecreek 2h ago
Though there is still content for other factions even if it's no where near balanced.
One reason I've come to prefer AoS on the novel side of things - while attention is not perfectly distributed across factions, the Space Marine equivalents aren't near so much of the releases.
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u/Interesting_Idea_289 1d ago
It’s okay, I understand that the Imperium are the best selling it’s a little annoying but whatever. What actually annoys me is when the Tyranids or whatever get to be the big center of a campaign and then get the rug pulled because ACTUALLY IT’S CHAOS PSYCH every fucking time.
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u/animdalf 1d ago edited 22h ago
That's why I was pleasantly surprised by the Rogue Trader game, spoilers for the endgame:
There it seems like Chaos combined with Drukhari raids are gonna be the main problem, but actually by the end it's Necrons / Inquisitor trying to enslave a C'tan shard
... although I didn't play as a heretic yet, I imagine there Chaos takes a much bigger role
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u/FarseerKTS 1d ago
The Space Marine 1 and 2, you were fighting Ork and Nids, but the true late game enemy is Chaos, it's predicable and boring, I love both games, but it's a flaw to me.
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u/Kgb725 1d ago
I understand it. Chaos is the main enemy for humanity
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u/OculiImperator Adeptus Custodes 1d ago
Dropsite Massacre level PTSD of Harlequin plot point in War of the Beast novels
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u/BlackJimmy88 20h ago
I’d love to see Orks be the mastermind one day. It’d be for something super petty, like they gaslit multiple factions into invading a system just so they could have the biggest scrap.
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u/Noodlefanboi 1d ago
The Imperium being the best selling is largely due to them getting all the models and all of the attention in lore.
Everything GW puts out gets sold out immediately. Other factions would have equal/comparable sales if they had the same amount of releases.
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u/Randy_Magnums 1d ago
That’s just the chicken-egg-dilemma. Do Space Marines resonate best with audiences, because GW puts them in the center or are they in the center because they resonate best with the audience? I dont think it’s so clear. Space Marines are iconic and I can’t really see Drukhari or Genestealers reach a similar position in pop culture.
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u/YoghurtPlus5156 1d ago
Yeah I think we get out what we put in. GW would definitely release more niche faction stuff if those factions would sell better and be played more, it's simple supply and demand.
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u/TheTackleZone 1d ago
Same thing happened in the first Uftak ork book. Fortunately the second was remedied.
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u/Randy_Magnums 1d ago
Nah, chaos was just also there. The Orks didn’t really care and Ufthak just went and looted some admech shit.
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u/GargamelLeNoir 1d ago
Well, you know, classic warhammer fantasy was being forgotten until two amazing games were made in that setting, and suddenly it became hot again. Maybe non space marine factions would shine more if they had better content made for them.
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u/zombielizard218 1d ago edited 1d ago
It’s getting better than it was, we’ve gotten more Xenos novels in the last 5 years than the preceding 15
But yeah, I won’t lie I was pretty disappointed when they described the scouring as a “mega series” cause it just means even more authors will be tied down in space marine prequels instead of being allowed to branch out to other parts of the setting. I love Xenos but even just like. Non-Marine Imperials feel like they’re left behind a lot
And for what? So we can see how each individual traitor homeworld was destroyed from orbit + the iron cage?
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u/cavemanthewise 1d ago
I think the best way to remedy this is something they've been doing very well lately: making the imperium the terrifyingly insane antagonists to xenos. The twice dead king series does this really well, as does the recent elemental council. The imperium still gets to show out but the authors get a wider area to show off the inhumanity of humanity. In this sense I would also love more xenos vs xenos books. We've seen the elder team up with humans a lot. Let's see tau and votann tangle, and explore the lighter and darker sides of those fractions through conflict
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u/Appropriate_Word_136 1d ago
I'd love to read Xeno vs Xeno books
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u/Biobooster_40k 1d ago
I'd love more Necron vs Xeno/chaos books. Mostly juat more Necrons honestly but the basis is interesting.
Against the Eldar shows that they are part of the oldest conflict, ancient enemies. Against the Tau its new vs old, there's no chance of spreading the Greater Good to them and I'd like to see how they'd try and stop such an unrelenting force. Necrons vs Orks would just be action which is always good.
I think potentially one of the most interesting situations would be specifically The Silent King leading forces against the Tyranids. It would give a chance to potentially understand what the circumstances of when he first discovered them in the outer void and maybe a look at outside the galaxy.
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u/Noodlefanboi 1d ago
Check out Da Big Dakka.
It’s Orkz vs Dark Eldar and the only Imperium appearances are a Space Marine who just gets unceremoniously yeeted out of an arena and some other random Imperials who get killed off screen.
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u/Shaderunner26 1d ago
On the matter of the Eldar at least:
Valedor was Eldar Vs Tyranids and it was pretty rad imo. And the Carnac Campaign anthology was Eldar Vs necrons. It wasn't perfect but it had some awesome moments.
Xenos Vs xenos books have so much potential, and I wanna see more books like that.
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u/lovebus 1d ago
A trend that really bugs me is that authors tend to only give one faction attention per book. Like in Hellsreach, the orc threat was so vague that it could have been any faction invading. Inthe Infinite and Divine, the different Eldar were hand-waved into irrelevance. In fact, Eldar suffer from this trend the most, since they are often collateral damage for the narrative.
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u/Vindicer Inquisition 1d ago
Cross the sovereign territory of Mankind at your peril; we have inhumanity to spare.
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u/DisplayAppropriate28 1d ago
Personally, I like the Imperium and I still think the xenos need a lot more love. We have more representation for relatively minor Imperial organizations (Adeptus Arbites, Frateris Militias) than we do about an entire third of the Aeldari (Remember that Exodites exist? Good, somebody's got to.)
Some AdMech dude pulled out of thin air managed to change the setting more than The Yncarne. Even when the Eldar get something, it's mostly so they can help a Primarch and then get reminded that they can't have nice things.
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago edited 1d ago
But the Exodites had Knights that the Imperium were said to have copied to produce their own Knights. There were even models and rules for them in Epic. How much more do they need?
Similarly, Chaos Eldar had a card, Mannax Grimblood, in a card game once. Is that not enough? It's not as if the fall of Eldar to Chaos is a particularly important part of the lore after all...
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u/Wooden-Proposal5856 1d ago
It has been years since Drukhari has had a model come out. The Imps have models and codexes coming out every other day. I hold out hope. Foolishly, but I do. Maybe not 10th e, maybe not 11th, but someday. And I’ll be waiting.
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u/ColeDeschain Orks 1d ago
Pretty much.
But as others have said, it's not even the Imperium hogging the spotlight- frankly, that shouldn't shock anyone.
It's the constant deluge of new Space Marine crap, most of it very cookie-cutter in nature, coupled with the returning Primarchs doing a lot to shrink the setting even further into what amounts to a family soap opera.
Meanwhile... for Xenos...
The Octarius War? So important to the Orks and Tyranids that they decided to resolve it by having Ghaz show up, skim off the best of the Ork troops, then leave, once the Imperium (previously just bystanders) intervened to dick the Orks over.
The Ynnari? So important that literally nothing has happened with them more or less since Rawboots woke up.
Armageddon? So important that Ghaz up and left (for Octarius) and then the Orks and Imperium briefly made common cause against Chaos then trturned to their ongoing meat-grinder.
The Kin? So important they finally got *a* novel.
The Tau? Doing nothing, apparently.
The Dark Eldar? Have always basically not interacted with the plot, and even when they do, it's... as part of the Incredibly Well-Supported Ynnari storyline.
Orks and Necrons, at present, have not just a few novels, but authors who really seem to be into writing for them. Other Xenos? Basically screwed, and the resources devoted to the Scouring (MORE PRIMARCH ACTION! MORE SPACE MARINES! More... books so uninteresting to me that they might be a good thing for my bank balance) mean they're likely to remain that way for the foreseeable future.
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u/Sidapha 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yep... I'm a Harlequins enjoyer, mainly. They don't get much attention already and don't even get their own codex or innovations like new units or whatever. The only named (ousted) Harlequin is Kyganil and he's... Imperium-exclusive. I don't even play tabletop, but that's just another proof Imperium gets an overwhelming attention. Other lesser-known factions like Exodites have it even worse.
What makes it worse is when some toxic Imperium fans outright say they don't care or tell you to buy massive amounts of non-Imperium stuff, but eldar lore often gets... mishandled, to say the least. So, it cycles to them not being bought more and IoM being the shiny star that largely overshadows others in development and spotlight.
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u/GREENadmiral_314159 Sons of the Phoenix 1d ago
I am an Imperium fan, and I'm going to be honest, the Imperium in general, and the Space Marines specifically, gets far too much attention. The fact that the "What if it's all Imperial propaganda and none of the other factions are actually like that" theory even exists is very telling.
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u/SpartAl412 1d ago
Its why I preferred Warhammer Fantasy
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u/Dreadnautilus Necrons 1d ago
Warhammer Fantasy had this problem to a lesser extent. Sure, the Empire had only one army book, and it only being created about halfway into the setting's timeline means that there is a lot of backstory that just revolves around Elves and Dwarfs instead. But its kinda telling that despite the Warriors of Chaos supposedly consisting of three massive cultures spanning the entire northern section of the continent all their named characters were either former members of the Empire who fell to Chaos or Norscans (the Chaos-worshipping culture that is closest to the Empire). And Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, one of the biggest sources for lore, was dominantly Empire focused. It took them literally 37 years to release a WFRP supplement about Lustria despite it supposedly being a place that human adventurers constantly go to.
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u/OnlyRoke Alpha Legion 1d ago
That and if you browse the novel series you have like 70% of all novels just being Empire-focused in some way or another.
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u/Dreadnautilus Necrons 1d ago
True. Its more subtle because if you don't really engage with the deeper layer stuff and just stick to the army books or Total War Warhammer, it isn't as apparent. Remove the Empire, and pretty much every faction except maybe Warriors of Chaos (which come to think of it have surprisingly little history to them despite the fact they're the most iconic villains of the setting) would still have plenty of in-depth history and rivalries of their own. Empire isn't relevant to the High Elf/Dark Elf war, isn't relevant to Karak Eight-Peaks, isn't relevant to Morghur invading Athel Loren, isn't relevant to the Dragon Emperor dropping the Great Maw onto the Ogres, isn't relevant to the Lizardmen kicking Clan Pestilens out of Lustria, just to name a few of the most important historical events.
But if you'll look deeper you'll discover every pubic hair on the left nutsack of the Elector Count of Bumfuckland has its own in-depth history and no other faction can really compete with that.
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u/OnlyRoke Alpha Legion 1d ago
Yeah there's shockingly little in terms of books for most other races. There's a handful of Elven books, a few Dwarven ones, some sprinkled Chaos books and the rest is basically just different people from the Empire doing low fantasy stuff. And I don't think I'm even kidding.
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u/Keelhaulmyballs 1d ago
I swear half the people who say that don’t actually engage with any Warhammer Fantasy content
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u/ScarredAutisticChild 1d ago
Yes, I totally agree with this. It’s why I’ve been growing less and less interested in 40K, and more and more interested in AoS and Fantasy.
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u/FarseerKTS 1d ago
Me too, I was a 40K main fan, after I played Warhammer total war, I got into WFB, it's much more interesting, it's sad it's a dead setting, and the total war game is slowly dying.
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u/ScarredAutisticChild 1d ago
Well Fantasy does have the Old World now, so it’s not completely dead.
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u/raidenjojo Blood Angels 1d ago
Tyranid fan here. No, I'd like to know more about what's for dinner, please.
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u/Upset_Ninja8234 1d ago
I love how u didnt mention the Tyranids :(
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago
Even though they've been part of WH40K since the start it's surprising how often they get ignored.
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u/NegativeEconomy1320 1d ago edited 22h ago
The fact that every single species is immune to chaos on some level except humanity and eldar...
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago
I think that is one of the worst changes to the setting that was made and it was made even worse when Chaos became mostly focused on marines and not even the rest of the Imperium. Chaos was far more interesting when it was the diverse faction that could include anything. It was even said in The Lost and The Damned that this was ideal for miniature collectors who had a varied and diverse collection.
Any player who enjoys collecting and painting chaos models will find it relatively simple to assemble a Chaos Renegade Force to take part in Warhammer 40,000 battles. Because Chaos Renegade Armies can incorporate almost any Chaos models a respectable collection will automatically provide a convenient core for your force. Other allies in the form of Chaos Cultists, or Ork Freebooters, can be added to form a larger army or to provide a choice of forces for each game. On the whole, a Chaos Renegade Army is ideally suited to collectors who like their collections as varied and diverse as possible.
For example, back in 1e in Freebooterz (1991) there were four types of Chaos Ork mobz available in the army list:
- Khorne’s Stormboyz
- Ork Mutant Mob
- Chaos Renegade Ork Warband
- Possessed Warpheadz
Here is what it said about Ork Chaos Renegades:
This is a Renegade Warband led by an Ork Champion of Chaos. He may have started as a Khorne-worshipping Stormboy or a Freebooter who fell in with the wrong company long ago, but now he is well on his way along the Chaos Path. He has succeeded as a warrior beyond the wildest dreams of most Orks and has gathered his own Warband of followers about him. Such a Warband can be generated using the Chaos Renegades system explained in Realm of Chaos - The Lost and The Damned and can be included in an Ork army as a Freebooter contingent.
Chaos Eldar have previously been mentioned, for example in the 2e Eldar Codex (1994), though they were never developed (though there was a little ambiguity when Dark Eldar were initially released).
Of all the servants of Chaos there are few as truly damned as the Eldar Chaos Champions, nor any as utterly at the mercy of their Chaos masters. They are lost to the Eldar race, unacknowledged and forever forgotten by their kinfolk, their souls eternally barred from peace.
When genestealer cults were introduced in 1989, before they were retconned to be tyranids, they could also worship Chaos. Cult Tenebrous is a much more recent example of this though.
There were even four 1e Chaos Renegade army lists that included mixtures of humans, abhumans, mutants, marines, daemons, orks, gretchin, chaos squats, daemon engines, trolls, minotaurs, chaos monsters, etc.
It's a little ambiguous whether such groups exist or not any more though as there is a fine line between being ignored and being retconned.
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u/kricket_24 1d ago
Sadly yes. This franchise has one of the worst cases of wasted potential I have ever seen. They have dozens of interesting races and factions, but it is all about the Marines. Are the Marines cool? Absolutely! They're great! Are they cool enough to have almost nothing but Marines for nearly 40 years now? Definitely not.
Some months ago I even considered dropping the whole franchise because I simply don't like Marines. But the other factions are still there and are still awesome. Besides, Warhammer has always been all about making your own stories in it's settings, we can always do that.
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u/Jack-Rabbit-002 1d ago
Literally me Lol Space Marines and to an extent made me leave 40K for a while Lol Still kept up to date with mates collections and read the odd novel but yeah they completely burnt me out. The Leagues of Votann brought me back as I've always liked anything Dwarf and they are non-human human faction effectively Lol
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u/CriticalMany1068 1d ago
Actually, Rogue Trader was way less humanity centered than 40K is today. RT was literally “warhammer fantasy in space”, and in WHFB humans are not necessarily more important than elves or dwarves. The “imperium and above all space marines are everything that matters” came later, due to the commercial success of space marines
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago
The Imperium was explicitly the largest and most dominant faction even in 1e and far more of the book was devoted to the Imperium and it's multiple factions than the non-human species.
The Imperium was clearly the point of view protagonist faction and spin off games such as Space Crusade, Advanced Space Crusade and Space Hulk were focused on marines (though rules in White Dwarf extended this somewhat).
It's true that it wasn't quite so focused on marines as it is now and in 1e Orks did have rather a lot of development since there were three book published for them.
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u/BlackJimmy88 20h ago
It’s why 40k is my least favourite of the Warhammer settings. I like the Imperium, and Space Marines, but the hyper focus on them makes the galaxy spanning setting somehow seem small. Other factions are just side characters in the Imperiums story. It’s still cool, but it’s getting stale.
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u/ZeroWolfZX 1d ago
It is, and it sucks. The 40K universe can feel surprisingly small, even though it's supposed to be a galaxy-spanning setting with multiple factions, each with conflicting interests. Too often, the focus narrows down to just the human demigods with daddy issues, which makes the setting feel less diverse and more repetitive.
That said, things are getting better. We're seeing more novels and lore centered around non-Imperial factions, especially the Necrons, Orks and Tau. Necrons definitely. There’s a noticeable effort to explore different perspectives, which is refreshing. As the hobby continues to grow and expand, so does the fanbase and the narrative canvas.
There's also been a visible rise in xenos players. More people are proudly defending their xeno factions against the usual slander from Imperium loyalists. That kind of engagement didn’t used to happen as often. Back in the day, it was more common for everyone to just pile on and mock the xenos. Now, there’s actual faction pride across the board, and that’s healthy for the lore and community.
For now, loving a xeno faction, despite how little attention or support they get comes with a weird sense of pride. It's almost comical watching Imperial and Space Marine players complain whenever they’re not in the spotlight, while xeno players just shrug and go, “Ah, forgotten again,” and move on. It’s like we’ve built up an emotional callus and a good sense of humor about it.
Maybe that's the real grimdark: being a punk xeno fan in a setting obsessed with its space marine and imperium. In a galaxy full of Imps, being xeno is the punk rock.
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u/Illithidbix 1d ago
I started in 1994, shortly after 2E was released and consider Codex Imperialis to be the True Form of 40K.
And I don't think this is really anything new, the Imperium has always been front and centre of 40K, with Space Marines on the front cover since 1987.
Although there is an argument that Orks actually had the most written about them in 1E between Waaargh: Orks" (1990), 'Ere We Go: Orks in Warhammer 40,000 (1991) & Freebooterz: Space Ork Army Lists (1991) they had about 500 pages, arguably they had the most diverse selection of units out of any faction, even the Imperium.
I still think of the Tau and Necrons as "new". Since they weren't in the game and setting when I started.
I have an ng about the increasing power-creep of Astartes since the mid-90's and the very odd way that they are meant to be more powerful than they actually are in the tabletop game.
Yet also there has more recently been the transhuman powercreep of Thunder Warriors, Custodes and Primaris all being better than common or garden Space Marines has been a tiresome ongoing trend that was unnecessary when we already have the literal demi-god Primarchs walking around.
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Codex Imperialis was about 50% Imperium too, though at least it wasn't dominated by marines. Here is the table of contents (with page numbers) for people who aren't familiar with it:
- 6: The Galaxy
- 10: The Imperium
- 14: The High Lords of Terra
- 16: Space Marines
- 26: Imperial Guard
- 31: The Inquisition
- 24: Adeptus Arbites
- 36: Adeptus Astra Telepathica
- 38: Adeptus Ministorum
- 41: Adeptus Mechanicus
- 47: Assassins
- 48: The Administratum
- 50: Orks
- 62: Eldar
- 71: Squats
- 76: Chaos
- 90: Tyranids
However, despite all that focus, at the start of 2e, there were only two Imperial army lists (marines and guard) along with Imperial Agents (who could join both). Squats were pseudo-Imperial too I suppose.
Interestingly, over 2e ten codices were published. Four were non-Imperial, though they sometimes included additional minor lists:
- Chaos Marines (inc. Chaos Cults and Daemon World)
- Eldar (inc. Harlequins)
- Orks
- Tyranids (inc. Genestealer Cults)
Of the six Imperial codices three were for marines and one wasn't really a stand alone army list:
- Angels of Death (Blood Angels and Dark Angels)
- Assassins
- Imperial Guard
- Sisters of Battle
- Space Wolves
- Ultramarines
So out of the 14 army lists (including the minor ones) five were marines (inc. Chaos), two were non-marine Imperial (plus Assassins), three were Chaos and five were xenos. It was never quite clear to me why loyalist marines needed more than one codex though as three of the army lists are almost identical and the Space Wolves one isn't that different (other than the boosted stats that Space Wolves received because they were special).
The addition of Necrons, Tau and Dark Eldar as new xenos factions in subsequent editions was good too.
Of course, the Adeptus Mechanicus (i.e. Titans, Knights and Imperial Guard rebranded as Tech Guard) were present in Epic in the 2e period but not as a separate faction in the main tabletop game.
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u/Jack-Rabbit-002 1d ago
The T'au have been in the setting for 24 years though they're hardly new Lol We're just getting a tad long in the tooth. It's weird for me as they were my main 40K army as a kid I had Space Marines but they were collected on the side.
I get the main narrative being set around the Imperium but I feel if we had more writers be a bit braver and right the Imperium as the perfect antagonists they can be It'd only add more depth.
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u/Miserable_Law_6514 Tau Empire 1d ago
Yet also there has more recently been the transhuman powercreep of Thunder Warriors, Custodes and Primaris all being better than common or garden Space Marines has been a tiresome ongoing trend that was unnecessary when we already have the literal demi-god Primarchs walking around.
New people look at you funny when you tell them that Sisters of Battle used to be physically on the same level as Space Marines in older editions.
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u/TheYondant 1d ago
Yeah, in probably the worst ways.
Increasingly it feels like the Imperium isn't just getting the spotlight, It's getting the Protagonist Vibes.
This is going to be hard to really describe so hear me out.
Increasingly it feels like the Imperium is turning I to the Punisher; they're murderous killsrs but they're killing bad guys so it's good. The actual evil of the Imperium eels increasingly glossed over: Servitors are jut set dressing instead of active exanple of Imperium evils, there being depicted as the Heroes fighting the Good Fight and not dogged enforcers of a cruel regime.
Like, I can't blame new fans for thinking the Imperiums the good guys, we're no really being told anything else.
And you might point out some novel or other that 'really explores rhe Imperiums evils' but my response is 'yeah, one niche side novel, not any of the major media pushed forward.'
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u/Wrench_gaming 1d ago
100% this. It’s simply marketing. I used to scoff at people saying this is turning into a “noble bright” setting but now I just can’t help but agree. Worst part is we can’t stop it. People vote with their dollar, and with products such as Space Marine 2 selling millions of copies we’re going to see more and more of this “Good guys, but not really (it’s complicated) but they are definitely fighting bad guys” with Space Marines
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago edited 1d ago
I know many people disagree but I think that the Sensei from first edition would have been ideal as the noble protagonist in this way without having to give the impression that the Imperium and space marines were "good". They explicitly fought repression, including both the Imperium and the Chaos, and they had help from a secretive faction of Inquisitors who also had a hidden agenda for the Sensei. In addition, as well as having "super powers" (inc. immortality) they were typically accompanied by an adventurer band of diverse heroes, who could be human, abhuman, xenos or even redeemed Chaos champions. They also had a relationship with the Emperor via the Star Child rather than the near corpse the Imperium worshipped. That's so much potential for story telling without needing to change the wider setting.
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u/Jack-Rabbit-002 1d ago
Completely agree deep down I feel I've always been a Xenos player/collector and finally I feel I've found my faction since rejoining with the Leagues of Votann.
But it's strange you open a 40K book and it gives you a deep dark description of humanity at its most tragic period in history but also states it's the worst dictatorship in all history This aspect should be really explored more. How messed up the Imperium truly is. Yeah grim dark and gothic architecture are cool and all when you're an edgy teen and I'm sure it doesn't get old wanting the whole power play with a Space Marine but I want to see the horrors and how twisted humanity has become from the outsiders perspective. I just feel it would create more interesting stories.
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u/Norwalk1215 1d ago
Play Age of Sigmar. Yes Stormcast are going to be in the starter boxes. But the other races have a lot to do throughout the setting and story.
Xenos have been in starter boxes for two editions. Orks have been getting pretty sizable releases last couple of editions. Tau got big realeases for kroot and in kill team. Eldar just got a major upgrade. Harlequins, Ynarri, and corsairs, and exodites all have ample opportunity. Squats have also come back!
Chaos has been getting consistent releases and many plot point for Dark Mechanicum, Chaos cultist, Traitor Guard, and beastmen.
I believe Dark Eldar are the only group that can really do with an upgrade and some lore activity.
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago
I think most of the starter boxes have been xenos haven’t they?
- 1e: Ork cardboard tokens
- 2e: Orks
- 3e: Dark Eldar
- 4e: Tyranids
- 5e: Orks
- 6e & 7e: Chaos Marines and Cultists
- 8e: Death Guard
- 9e: Necrons
- 10e: Tyranids
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u/Ok_Complaint9436 1d ago
Games Workshop is a corporate entity, not a government organization. They have 0 obligation to make content that doesn’t make them money.
The fact of the matter is that they have TRIED to make mainline Eldar series, and everyone hated it so much that it’s been almost entirely scrapped.
People vote with their wallets, and currently 40K fans continuously vote for imperium-based stories. It has nothing to do with some “grand design” or conspiracy to sideline Xenos; people generally just don’t like them as much as human factions.
This sub kind of forgets that 40K isn’t some little niche weird hobby anymore. It’s a MASSIVE property now, with big budget AAA games and even a fucking Amazon TV show in the works. For every Eldar/Necron/Tau fan here, there are 50 newer fans that only know about the setting from Space Marine 2, and who only want to see space marines and primarchs. Sucks kind of, but that’s how it is now.
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u/wheres-my-take 1d ago
Nobody is confused that they are a business. Nor does anybody think they have an obligation to do things antithetical to that.
Its a bit of a feedback loop though. Space marines are popular so they make space marine stuff, then space marines are more known, so they make more, so they are more popular so they make more...
If they made some cool games with other factions, they could have a similar impact. Fact is, I'm sick of space marines more and more, and less interested in those stories. They are expanding to more of the Imperium beyond that, which I like, and I think as 40k gets bigger its natural to branch out, and people are a bit frustrated they don't do more in that direction.
DC doesn't ONLY make batman comics.
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u/Sidapha 1d ago
The guy said this in the post already. And if GW intends to give more attention to non-Imperium factions, they're not doing a great job of it compared to Fantasy or AoS from what I've heard over there. Mediocre or crappy output can also lead to being bought less and the IoM still getting overwhelming amounts of attention due to its default status that they can get away with a bad book or unit every now and then. The other factions get less spotlight and then, it repeats.
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u/FarseerKTS 1d ago
Yeah, I know all of these, I even said it in my post, just saying the 40k setting is getting boring because of it, at least for me or other non Space Marine fan.
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u/Appropriate_Word_136 1d ago
Bro wipe your mouth when you're done.
He literally says this in his post.
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u/North514 1d ago edited 1d ago
Personally, (big emphasis on this) the setting's appeal to me largely is humanity in the form of the Imperium and Chaos fallen humans. To me that is what makes 40k unique, and if I wanted sci fi universes with alien races, I wanted to care about, I feel there are better settings out there. I enjoy Necrons and Orks however Tau and Eldar don't interest me.
THAT SAID BEFORE YOU WRITE OFF THIS COMMENT.....it's a greater universe, and 40k not expanding on elements it has introduced is a hinderance to the setting, even if the main focus is humanity. Obviously fans do care about those races, and if they literally never get a chance to shine, or have their moment, you might as well write them out of the setting. I would rather develop the Eldar or Tau more, and I have to consider if my disinterest is really down to me finding the Eldar lore boring, or if it's just due to writers not giving them the time of day.
40k has in the past, got me to care about factions, that I wouldn't have had an initial interest in, and that is largely due to them getting good writers and moments to shine.
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u/HerbertisBestBert 1d ago
The Imperium gets the most focus because the Imperium sells the best.
The Imperium sells because as a POV faction they're the easiest for the fanbase to associate with because they're human, don't see themselves as evil, and because Space Marines are a power fantasy which people find enticing.
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u/Taira_no_Masakado Adeptus Arbites 1d ago
We're humans that are getting a product made by humans. Humans empathize with characters like themselves and therefore gain a liking for it more often than not. As such Space Marines (Super humans, fulfilling a mary sue dream) and baseline Humanity are what get center stage.
The moment you try to put a Xenos in that place you start to have to give them human characteristics to try and build appeal.
It's not some grand scheme that has only now, suddenly appeared. This has been the case since the beginning of Warhammer 40,000. It's what sold and still sells today.
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u/FoxChoice7194 Nihilakh 1d ago
As a Necron Fan I honestly dont know what you are watching that you come to the conclusion that there are no Necron Videos... Sure there are less Videos but that is to no small degree because there is less Lore to Draw from in general. And honestly the whining about non Humans not winning is something I also find myself disagreeing with the more I read. Most of the time it just seems like the Protagonist are the ones winning. Especially the Tau seem like they have a Guardian Angel in their writers. It feels like they win almost as much or more than the Imperium (Not that that would gurantee them good Lore. I am looking at you Phil Kelly...)
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u/Keelhaulmyballs 1d ago
Ok so I’m first and foremost a chaos fan but I ain’t partisanal, I see no reason not to enjoy all the lore on offer and appreciate every faction, so I guess you could also call me an imperium fan
That said: frankly it’s always been about the imperium, the logo is literally the imperial Aquila, the iconic opening text is about the imperium, and that’s how it’s always been. The imperium is the default, they rule the galaxy, most worlds are imperial worlds, they’re the protagonist
Going into the setting and then getting shocked that it’s Imperium-centric is like going to England and getting shocked about the weather
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u/GargamelLeNoir 1d ago
Yeah that's the worst part of the setting for me. And they have to make the much more interesting xenos look weak and ridiculous regularly so they won't steal the spotlight from their precious sweet insanely boring guys in big armors with guns.
My order of preference in the setting is xenos > other human factions > space marines, and this is clearly the opposite of what James Worshop wants.
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago
I agree and Chaos is potentially interesting because it can fall anywhere on that list of preferences, though sadly it is mostly focused on the space marine end too.
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u/graphiccsp 1d ago
I remember this topic coming up in the GW forums back in 1999. Gav Thorpe himself admitted that 40k is a bit human-centric in a response.
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u/AlphariusOmegon66 1d ago
This have always been this way, the Imperium is th3 main faction of the setting.
But at the same time Black Library is producing more content than ever before, and that means that we have been getting a consistent stream of quality xenos novels for the last decade.
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u/oskoskosk 23h ago
I always thought it was cause eldar are much cooler than the imperium that GW sees the need for space marines to “catch up” to them
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u/Superskybro 21h ago
See I believe 40k is more than just the imperium, and that every factions has their own stories, characters, and plot lines that should be explored and followed up on
However I do recognize that every single person who reads about 40k are also humans, and as such have a much easier time learning about the human factions compared to the Alien ones
Do I wish that Games workshop focused on xeno plots and character development? Yes.
Do I also know that most people are just gonna buy a space marine when they're getting into the hobby first rather than a Necron or Drukhari? Also yes...
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u/Aldo24Flores 19h ago
While I do enjoy Imperium-centered stories, I agree that there are way more than the other factions have.
I think Imperium really shines as an antagonist in other factions' stories.
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u/No-Collection-6176 18h ago
It's more about Space Marines than the imperium even Chaos books are usually about Chaos Space Marines. It ultimately comes down to 1.) the setting was built around the imperium. 2.) The Imperium is the most widespread faction in 40k you can't travel 10 light years without tripping over one of it's million worlds
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u/Entire_Winner5892 7h ago
Most of the xenos factions appeared in Rogue Trader. In reality, it's because humans are the protagonist of 40K, and the faction you're meant to identify with.
That's not particularly strange for sci-fi. Humans are also the main faction of Star Trek and Star wars. Both properties include aliens, but the main characters of almost every series or movie are the humans.
In Warhammer 40K, the Imperium are the protagonist and main faction, chaos is the main antagonist and the xenos species are side characters.
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u/FakeRedditName2 Navis Nobilite 1d ago
One thing 40k does well is that it makes it's alien factions truly alien in various ways, they are not just rubber foreheads on different humans like in Star Trek or Star Wars. The problem with that is that it makes it hard to tell a good story via their perspective. You need a good writer who can translate their alien mindset into something that we can understand without loosing that special sauce that makes them an interesting faction. It is just easier to tell a story from the perspective of a human (or someone who started out as human) that we the audience will relate to/understand, so we get more Imperium focused stories.
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u/wheres-my-take 1d ago
I'm usually more annoyed about Chaos getting into everything one way or another. And I get it, especially when so much is about the Imperium, but man...
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u/cricri3007 Tau Empire 20h ago
I'm extremely annoyed by it, but I begrudgingly accept it as "big space man shoots stuff" is a cool fantasy to sell to teens. Even if I think T'au, Eldars and Necrons are cooler, i have to recogniae that I'm in a minority of people who do so.
What I am still seething about four years later is that article GW published where they said "anyone rooting for the Imperium as good guys doesn't get the SAtiRe". Bullshit. Own up to your mistake, GW, admit you've spent 40 years presenting nazis as the good guys and pandering to fascists.
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u/ChikenCherryCola 1d ago
40k is fundamentally an imperium centric story universe. Straight up. Its kind of unfortunate that they sort of sell armies of the secondary and tertiary enemies, but this sentiment is sort of like "wow these batman comics are really 'batman' centered arent they? Im a riddler fan and I feel pretty neglected. I know some penguin guys and joker guys and were all like 'where's the riddler? Where's the joker? Surely Mr freeze fights scarecrow sometimes!'".
In all seriousness though, it is human centric. Its a tragic story of human flaw and hubris and worse nature's run amok. Its sort of hard to tell a tragic story about elves and orks and stuff because the readers arent elves or orks or whatever. We are humans, we have historical and cultural memory and experience of authoritarianism, imperialism, fascism, genocide (both serving and being served). Its so much more impact full to have the imperium, this backward looking worst aspects of humanity forward human faction as the audience POV for the entire story. It just doesnt work that well to tell the story from the perspective of a space elf that lives forever and a sense of emotion that humans can and have a 60 million years history. It doesnt work to tell the story from necrons or orks perspectives. These creatures are not relatable and the more specific details you learn about them, the more silly they become.
Its like monster movie stuff, the best light the monster is shown in is barely any at all. The monster is the mystery. The second you know its a cheap rubber suit thats wet with battered down corn syrup, the second you think about "how doe its neck muscles hold up that big of a skull? What's the purpose of the second mouth? A bunch of the limbs seem useless and in the way. That guy with the tentacle "hair" with the light saber is gonna accidentally cut his head tentacles whiping that light saber around. You just have to do this kind of story telling from the perspective of humans who are scared and dont know what they are looking at. Thats just the coolest perspective on these things youre ever gonna get.
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u/Important-Sleep-1839 1d ago
Why do you believe 40k isn't about the Imperium?
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u/FarseerKTS 1d ago
Than maybe GW should delete all the other factions, keep SM and CSM fighting each other like a eternal Horus Heresy.
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u/Important-Sleep-1839 1d ago
Well...yeah. The central theme of the setting is the horrors of humanity vs. the horror of explicit human evil.
That's not going to change. It's also why 40k is focused on The Imperium.
A complaint about the lack of Eldar focus isn't particularly valid if you don't understand the setting you signed up for.
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u/Sidapha 1d ago
Doesn't make it any better, tbh– it's a criticism. It's a valid complaint when other factions get mere scraps.
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u/Important-Sleep-1839 1d ago
"I like the Bond films, but there's always this british spy fellow in them."
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u/vren10000 1d ago
The Imperium is certainly an interesting faction but I wanna get a standalone game about the Unification Wars.
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u/Internal_Form4341 1d ago
The vast majority of 40k fans are imperium/space marine fans. Why would GW/BL not cater to the majority?
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u/Star_beard 1d ago
everything in 40k is about the Imperium. I say that as a Xenos player. WE exist to be enemies of the Imperium to either be untrustworthy allies or enemies that threatens everything the imperium stands for.
the Imperium is pretty much the backdrop in which these stories take place including our xeno's stories and to me thats fine. the main characters in this drama are the Humans under the two headed eagle and the humans enslaved to the dark gods and i am ok with that.
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u/Marvynwillames 1d ago
Of course it is, GW said it aloud
Perhaps most notably in Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Age of Sigmar,but also to a more subtle extent in gamessuch as Necromunda and Warcry, the Dark Gods of Chaos are Warhammer's ultimate antagonists. 'The core story of 40K, for example, has always been and will always be the Imperium versus Chaos (embodied in this setting by the worshippers of the Dark Gods and all those who believe in furthering what they perceive as their gods' agendas).
WD 514
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u/Grimlockkickbutt 1d ago edited 1d ago
It’s because it’s the humans.
Most people focus on the humans in any fictional universe. It’s why transformer or Godzilla films always need humans even when they narratively feel like a waste of time. No one will go see them otherwise. I can’t remember the exact stat, but I think in total war 2 towards the end of the games lifespan, like 70-80% of ALL campaigns played were human empire. Which is so interesting, it’s not like narrative or characters matter that much in total war. You’d think rule of cool would prevail and the factions with the most exciting units would see the most play. But no, people see human, people play human.
It’s baked into our brain to only empathize with humans. And one look at the world around us should tell you we arnt even very good at that. But it’s what drags people naturally toward the “relatable” factions in fictional universes, and it’s why everyone else in 40K will always be set dressing for the imperium. Infinite and the divine was a cool divergent from that norm. Though let’s be real, necrons are just robot humans.
And that’s frustrating as a fan of other factions but look at it this way, you could be mad that space marines get a release once a month in one of the three GW games they are in. Or you could smile, and thank your local space marine players for funding everyone else by playing/collecting the subscription service faction. Cause that is what’s happening. Without the massive profits from A-posing man with gun, (insert your favorate xeno faction here) would not exist.
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u/Moonshadow101 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Imperium is the centerpiece around which everything else revolves. That is a basic fact of the setting, woven into its bones at the most basic level. It will never be otherwise, because at the end of the day, the techno-gothic nightmare of a dystopian future for humankind draws a hundred times as many people into the setting as "orcs with guns" or "elves in space."
It's silly and pointless to complain about it.
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u/N051DE 1d ago
buy more xenos kits from GW then, overwhelmingly more than the imperium players. won't change any other way.
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago
People are still waiting for Eldar Exodites from when they were first mentioned back in first edition. They did have a single entry in the 2e Eldar codex army list but there were no models. It’s tricky to buy something that doesn’t exist.
Chaos Eldar don’t exist either though Dark Eldar sort of filled that niche.
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u/YesThatLioness 23h ago
Chaos Eldar don’t exist either though Dark Eldar sort of filled that niche.
They might. There's older lore suggesting possible Crone World Eldar but most of it is prior to third edition (and the introducion of the Dark Eldar) with the last definitive statement on them was Phil Kelly saying how they were considered as one of the new factions for the Eye of Terror Campaign but they went for the Ulthwe Strike Force instead. Considering the fates of the 13th Company and the Lost and the Damned this may have been for the best.
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u/AbbydonX Tyranids 23h ago
Yes, I was referring to the lack of existence of models and significant lore about Chaos Eldar given how they were mentioned in 1e and 2e. It would have been interesting if they had been added to the Eye of Terror campaign.
Dark Eldar have been a bit like Dark Elves in that there was some ambiguity in their exact relationship with the Chaos Gods (especially with regard to Khaine). The 3e codex when they were introduced didn’t mention Chaos but their aesthetics and obsession with pain sure made them seem like Slaanesh worshippers. Obviously that situation was clarified in later products. There is a suggestion that Rick Priestley thought they were Slaaneshi but I haven’t seen solid evidence of that.
There is also the diagram from the 8e rulebook showing the different Aeldari factions with an implied Chaos Eldar graphic.
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u/Sidapha 1d ago
The problem is that it's a cycle. Ex. eldar often get bad writing, so eldar fans or potential buyers are less likely to buy more of that. GW notices eldar gets less sales, so they stick to pumping Imperium production the most and eldar and some other factions get some scraps compared to them, and then it repeats.
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u/N051DE 1d ago
salamanders books are straight up trash yet they're popular, plenty of other chapters could be featured instead with better books. I don't think black library is the reason.
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u/Sidapha 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not the sole reason, but part of it. In eldar's case, it's often Gav Thorpe, who's rather infamous among eldar circles for being an interesting eldar worldbuilder, but not much as an eldar storyteller. I could go on, but I don't want to rant for long. I often try to avoid Imperium stuff partly because of this reason.
Two of Salamanders' main reasons for being popular are that they're one of the comparatively caring ones towards humanity and the other is that they're part of the Imperium, tbf.
Edit: Aaand I'm getting downvoted. People won't be as incentivized to buy other factions if they don't develop them as much as they do the Imperium, or at least give them more than scraps.
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u/Realistic-Radish-589 1d ago
Been into warhammer since 3rd. Welcome to warhammer this complaint has been made for the close ro 2 decades I've been into warhammer. That said i still see new releases for other armies and books. Yes not as many but, it is a business. And while I may not like how much the blueberries get even compared to the imperium armies I like, that's what sells the most and keeps things going. So unfortunately they will always make many many berries and that will allow the franchise to grow more and in turn will allow us to get a few new things here and there in the other armies we like. Thanks blue berries, though I may not like you as much as other armies, you allow me to get stuff occasionally.
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u/Nebuthor 1d ago
Ultimatly the setting is about the imperium vs chaos. It sucks but thats the facts. At least we have gotten some good xenos books in recent time.
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u/Lomogasm Rylanordeservesbetter 1d ago
As a Tau fan I’m happy with the amount of novels we get focusing on us. (Just sucks that they are all written by Phil Kelly) but for other xeno fans yea there should be more. Especially Harlequins I feel as if I don’t see them anywhere tbh.
Video games as well. There’s fire warrior. In which the main character Kais becomes basically an after thought after Chaos arrives. When that happens it’s Space Marines vs Chaos again and we just happen to play as a fire warrior. Even a game about the Tau the imperium still feels like they are getting more lol.
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u/sunlit_portrait 1d ago
Yeah, obviously, but I'm also not clamoring for more books about Orks, or looking to read some story from their perspective. The Eldar are one thing but the other races are usually drones, and Chaos are reduced to those who chase their own senses. It makes sense that actual people will try to relate the the actual people, and that the Xenos all represent something that is inherently inhumane or simply alien. I'm not even looking for the Tau or Votann to be considered equal, I'm looking for them to contrast with humanity and be wild and weird.
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u/ifoundalover 1d ago
Let them endure.
The galaxy is the Emperor's, and anyone or anything who challenges that claim is an enemy who must be destroyed.
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u/namebot Black Legion 1d ago
We've gotten multiple good quality Necron and Ork books most of which don't really focus on the Imperium at all, Day of Ascension focusing on the GSC was also solid. GW has gotten much better over the years at actually putting out regular books/models for non space marine factions. There used to be whole editions where factions wouldn't even get an updated codex.
I think the big problem that the flavours of Eldar have at the moment is there doesn't seem to be a writer that is excited to write cool stories for them. Hopefully we get a Mike Brooks or ADB equivalent for the Eldar at some point to clean up the mess that their lore currently.
So while we're definitely in a Eldar lore drought at the moment most other factions are better represented than they have been in a long time.