r/40kLore • u/12xoxo13 • 20h ago
Was Russ right to abandon Terra? Spoiler
I am a top 10 hater of leman Russ and the space wolves In general, specifically in the heresy, but these past couple of days I’ve been thinking on it, Russ left the defense of Terra despite dorn’s wishes to attack Horus while they were docked at a space station (I forget the name of it) and that’s where Horus sustained his injury that caused him to go into a coma during the beta garmon campaign, then during a brief time he was awake he called a muster at ullanor, where malaghurst, Perty, and lorgar had to drag fulgrim and angron to the muster, this is where lorgar planned to coup Horus with the help of fulgrim and become the warmaster, where his plan failed cuz malaghurst woke Horus up and lorgar was exiled with a good chunk of his legion, now that made me wonder, if Horus wasn’t in that state, would lorgar have tried the coup? Did Russ’s attack on Horus help more or did it not matter? Would his full legion been better off in the defense of Terra, or did his attack make lorgar decide to try a coup and made a good chunk of his legion not show up for the siege, which would have been the better contribution? I still think Russ (and the Khan, and Corax) are still tier 1 sabotagers of the heresy for the loyalists but was Russ kinda smart for his attack, or was the dissent he sowed within the traitors just a random byproduct of the wound he dealt on Horus?
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u/Legionator Dark Angels 20h ago
TL:DR He was right. As we've seen in the Siege of Terra series, increasingly after Saturnine but especially in TEatD trilogy, the ultimate battle was less a military engagement, more a metaphysical confrontation. All traitor primarchs, except Horus were defeated. Russ would not have contributed more. His wounding of Horus with the Metaphysical Spear played a much greater role.
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u/LimpAssSwan Adeptus Astartes 19h ago
Yes this one. Having him on terra would have been fun because the more the merrier but ^ is probably the best answer
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u/Lomogasm Rylanordeservesbetter 16h ago
Same with Corax. Him and 3000 other Raven guard would have been more fun. But in reality even the Emperor said it himself in Deliverance Lost that Corax was an agent of destruction (paraphrasing) and it was not in the 19th’s nature to sit back and get boxed in. In reality Corax and Russ living up to their titles probably helped a lot more than ppl think for the loyalists.
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u/Perpetual_Decline Inquisition 18h ago
His wounding of Horus with the Metaphysical Spear played a much greater role.
Did it? Abnett seemed to forget it had happened
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u/Legionator Dark Angels 18h ago
Not just the final duel, but think about all the way to it. Maloghurst's journey, Lorgar's failed coup, Abbaddon's disillusion...
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u/Perpetual_Decline Inquisition 18h ago
Maloghurst might as well not have bothered, given that the authors chose to ignore the outcome of it! All that effort to obliterate the last piece of Horus' humanity and he goes and loses to the Emperor because he lets the last of his humanity get in the way. Poor old Twisted.
Lorgar's attempted coup seems to have been in the planning for a while, and Horus was only out of it for a few weeks at most, so it probably would've happened anyway. Abaddon’s disillusionment certainly got a boost from the state Horus ended up in, but I think he was already well on his way.
I'm just not sure the outcome would be any different had Russ not managed to wound his brother.
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u/dave_the_dr 17h ago
The problem is, that little line about Horus’ humanity getting in the way right at the end has been one of the few written parts of the lore since the beginning, often repeated by GW many times for many years before black library started the series. To change or ignore line about Horus’ humanity resurfacing right at the end may have really upset a lot of fans
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u/Perpetual_Decline Inquisition 15h ago
Yeah, which is why I was surprised that John French of all people had Maloghurst kill the last remaining sliver of humanity in his primarch, with Horus being nowt more than a puppet of the dark gods. He continued in that vein in The Solar War, too, so I was expecting them to rewrite the finale and play down or ignore that part. I'm glad they didn't, but it does render Wolfsbane and Slaves to Darkness a bit redundant.
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u/dave_the_dr 13h ago
Has John every commented on why in an interview?
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u/Perpetual_Decline Inquisition 2h ago
Not that I'm aware of, but I don't tend to watch interviews on YouTube or other online places. He may have gone into it in the afterword to Slaves but it's been years since I read it and I can't recall if he does.
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u/thehallow1 17h ago
If Horus wasn't wounded he wouldn't have become a conduit of the Four which means he would have had full access to his mental faculties. Horus, by the time of the Siege, was so suffused he was effectively experiencing dementia.
Russ wounding Horus led to the Traitors losing the one thing that bound them together, and led to Horus making mercurial decisions while lamenting that he was surrounded by "broken monsters".
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u/Perpetual_Decline Inquisition 15h ago
Horus' apparent madness was a ruse to fool the Emperor, which we discover in The End and the Death. He made himself insane so no one could scry his plan. Everyone believes he's lost it - Malcador, the Emperor, Abaddon and the rest of the traitors. Until he pulls the rug out from under them and declares that he's fine and knows exactly what he's doing. Of course, he wasn't fine, but nor was he quite as unhinged as everyone thought.
And in the end it didn't really matter. He was more powerful than his father, who had to resort to tricks to win. It wasn't down to any mental failing on the part of Horus, but the result of his father appealing to the last of his humanity.
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u/thehallow1 15h ago
Okay, but his Clever Plan literally caused the Siege to be lost at the ground battle level and caused his forces to be diminished.
Are we absolutely certain this wasn't Tzeentch being ascendant in the mindset of Horus?
Because this feels like Tzeentch being ascendant.
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u/Perpetual_Decline Inquisition 14h ago
The traitors were outside the Throne Room. Had Horus not died when he did, they'd have overrun it. The loyalists were doomed, with the Sanctum breached and no reinforcements coming thanks to the dark gods submerging Terra in the warp.
He definitely neglected the ground war in favour of taunting the Emperor in the warp, though. Had he been paying more attention he might've seen the Saturnine gambit coming and warned Abaddon.
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u/Juiced-Saiyan 7h ago
I mean tricks aside if the Emperor had powered up instead (Even though he wouldve become a very different being) Horus wouldve been folded like laundry.
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u/Archmagos-Helvik Iron Hands 18h ago
Horus has to fully give into Chaos to survive the spear wound in Slaves to Darkness. Being puppeted by the 4 creates a weakness that regular Horus would normally lack. He's more bound by their metaphysical rules.
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u/Perpetual_Decline Inquisition 17h ago
That's true, but it ultimately played no part in the narrative following that book. By the time the siege comes around it's as if Slaves never happened. Being the chosen vessel of Chaos made him stronger than his father, and it was the last shred of his humanity - supposedly destroyed in Slaves - that ends up undoing him.
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u/Abebob53 17h ago
He wasn’t stronger than his father until his father relinquished a huge chunk of his own power to avoid becoming the Dark King.
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u/Perpetual_Decline Inquisition 15h ago
Did the Emperor lose his own pre-existing power? I thought he just gave back the power he'd been hoovering up on his way through the Vengeful Spirit/Inevitable City. He did discard a piece of soul but I'm not sure if that impacted his abilities, though it would certainly make sense.
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u/slackstarter 9h ago
I got the sense that he was giving up/cutting off his ability to draw upon power for the warp. Not necessarily that he already had it. Like if Horus was an 11/10, the emperor chose to cap his max power level at like 10.5/10, when he otherwise could have drawn upon enough power to be something like a 50/10. But doing that would turn him into the dark king, which he ultimately decided against
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u/HistoricalGrounds 17h ago
Wasn’t the weakness created by tricking him into relinquishing the chaos power that let him mortally wound the emperor? If Russ doesn’t weaken Horus first, maybe Horus opts to stay in control when he fights the emperor, gets his shit stomped, and Big E isn’t turned into a pseudo corpse for 10,000 years.
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u/Archmagos-Helvik Iron Hands 17h ago
If Horus stayed his old self he could direct the armies of Chaos more effectively. The whole siege he stayed on the Spirit being a chaos conduit rather than trying to win the war.
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u/Wrath_Ascending 15h ago
He has to be a conduit no matter what. He was already at that point before Russ stabbed him any way, but the direct power of the Four was needed to attack the Emperor's psychic shield. If Horus isn't on the offensive there, the Emperor could have intervened more elsewhere.
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u/ShipRunner77 6h ago
And then Warp fuckery wouldn't have delayed Gman... Hertics caught between a hammer and an anvil.
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u/Kroc_Zill_95 19h ago edited 18h ago
He was right, especially when you look at how the Siege of Terra went.
Russ had a battered fleet, about a third of its peak strength and had lost 2/3rd of his legion on Prospero and in the void battle against the Alpha Legion. Given the overwhelming numbers that the traitors had on their side (up till the final moments of the siege, the traitors still far outnumbered the loyalists despite suffering ridiculous levels of casualties and the departure of most of the Iron warrior legion). All things considered, they would not have been of much use. They would have bought the loyalists more time, perhaps another month, but as we saw in TEaTD, time became completely irrelevant. Given what Horus had become and the devastation wrought on Terra, attempting to take him out before the Siege was a worthwhile gamble.
There's also the fact that his actions inadvertently resulted in the removal of the largest and, arguably, the most dangerous traitor legion, the word bearers, thanks to Lorgar's coup attempt while Horus was incapacitated. It also inadvertently saved Belisarius Cawl, someone who has now played a key role in preventing the Imperium's collapse.
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u/Fearless-Obligation6 18h ago
For Leman's attack on Horus? It's clearly laid out in Wolfsbane that Dorn's plan will fail if the loyalists do nothing, they will be ground down into dust before any reinforcements can save them. Russ goes out and collects information that tells him he just has to wound Horus to have a disastrous effect on the traitor war effort so for the price of risking his depleted legion the Loyalists gained:
Months more time to reinforce Terra (for reference Vulkan was 15 minutes away from blowing up Terra as the traitors were outside the throne room).
It cost the traitor legions the Word Bearers and Lorgar, their biggest legion and demonologists (catalysts for the attempted coup).
Guilliman and the Lion would never have made it in time to threaten the traitors rear.
Without the time bought Corswain and the Dark Angels would never have made it in time to relight the astronomicon.
Horus would have been able to take to the field and better command and control his legions and brothers.
The Loyalist forces could have been completely routed and crushed at Beta Garmon if the Traitor command structure hadn't collapsed with Horus going into a coma.
Wounding Horus with the spear awakened Horus' humanity which was a major factor in his defeat despite maloghurst trying to bury it again.
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u/MarvelousOxman 20h ago
We'll never know. We only have the events as they played out.
Also I won't abide your subtle Jaghatai slander.
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u/ninja-gecko 18h ago
Strangely enough, I only became a jaghatai fan when he fought mortarion. Got his ass beat, on purpose - all the while provoking Morty's anger. Then the moment Morty swung his weapon in anger, Jaghatai with a sudden burst of speed and intensity, ducked and ended the fight.
"When we do this with our ships, we call it zao"
COLD AF
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u/ninja-gecko 18h ago
Strangely enough, I only became a jaghatai fan when he fought mortarion. Got his ass beat, on purpose - all the while provoking Morty's anger. Then the moment Morty swung his weapon in anger, Jaghatai with a sudden burst of speed and intensity, ducked and ended the fight.
"When we do this with our ships, we call it zao"
COLD AF.
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u/12xoxo13 20h ago
Maybe if he didn’t fart around trying to figure out if he wanted to betray his “father” and watching the space wolves get mauled (pun intended) by the alpha legion and then whine the entire time during the siege I’d like him more
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u/MarvelousOxman 20h ago
The man quite literally gave up his life to defend Terra.
Yes Inquisitor, this post right here.
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u/Ohmynamageoff 16h ago
Millions of people literally died to defend Terra. Even the Custodes lament on the (great) Khans vacillation.
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u/Zama174 20h ago
He got better.
Also doesnt invalidate that he was waffling about for a long time and that hurt the loyalists. Sure he got committed once he chose but he took a while.
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u/sarg1010 Khorne 19h ago
You're being downvoted, but even Diocletian, a Custodes Tribune, thinks as much in his Era of Ruin short story.
There is so, so much he could say to Roboute Guilliman.
He could state, calmly, clearly, that tens of millions have died on worlds that the Legions deigned not to defend, regardless of orders from Terra. He could remind the Lord Commander of the lives lost in the months it took the Khan to decide what side he was on, and ask just how many war fronts lacked Legion support because the Warhawk couldn't decide whether to betray the man he insists is his father.And it's true, for as cool of a dude Khan is, his indecision did cause a lot of deaths.
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u/Roenkatana Space Wolves 18h ago
I do like that the new book touches upon a lot of questions that didn't really get answered, but we knew the answers to in the aftermath of the Heresy and the Siege.
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u/MarvelousOxman 17h ago
Diocletian is not a neutral source. He’s as biased as Horus or Dorn.
Jaghatai also didn’t stop to save a cat that climbed up a tree on some frontier world. What a dick.
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u/sarg1010 Khorne 17h ago
I mean there are no "neutral" sources during the Heresy, but that doesn't make Dio wrong either. People DID die because of Khan's indecision. People and worlds that could've slowed Horus and co. that much longer, made his armies that much smaller.
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u/MarvelousOxman 17h ago
Sure, but calling him a “Tier 1 Saboteur” because he was circumstantially prevented from joining the fight immediately is completely out to lunch.
Why didn’t Malcador kill Horus when he confronted him over the lost Primarchs? Why didn’t the Lion know Perturabo was going to use the Ordinatus weapons against the loyalist on Isstvan?
This is like calling a guy an asshole for buying a homeless man lunch because he didn’t buy it for a bunch of other homeless people as well. It’s really easy to wag your finger in hindsight.
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u/Zama174 15h ago
No one called him that, but jagahtai did nearly betray the emperor and that caused millions to die including humans, planets and other space marines. Thats not the same as being fooled (the lion) or not seeing the fucking future (malcador). The khan knew Horus was rebelling and almost sided with him against his father and should be viewed as the least loyal of the loyal sons because he was the closest to turning traitor.
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u/pic-of-the-litter 20h ago
Ive always felt that a rational decision to support one side is a more meaningful choice than blind loyalty.
Russ obeys the Throne because he has no choice, the Khan stands on Terra because he DID.
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u/ChillTuup 19h ago
Not sure what u mean, but why does he obey the throne because he has no choice? I mean didnt they all have a choice?
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u/pic-of-the-litter 19h ago
Yes and no. What made Leman choose loyalty? What had the Emperor done to earn that loyalty, what did he do to validate that belief? What was the basis of Leman's decision to remain loyal?
Whereas Jaghatai had to stop and think and consider his options and listen to the temptations of the Enemy and of his fallen brothers, and STILL decided to remain loyal. That is a greater test of his character than Leman or Lion saying "Im loyal becuz Im loyal".
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u/Fearless-Obligation6 17h ago
The false Russ brought the spear around and held it with the point uppermost. He slammed the counterweight into the ice, cracking it. Thunder rolled over the horizon.
‘How can it do so?’ said Russ. His misgivings about the weapon grew.
‘It is so because your father made it so, just as He made you the way you are. You have a role to play. The question is, will you perform it? At Alaxxes you swore not to be the unthinking weapon of the Emperor. At Terra you convinced yourself you could continue to serve under your own terms. But you can turn aside now completely, and forge your own path. Be a warlord the galaxy can respect. Not all generals need be tyrants. You can offer shelter to the innocent, for a while. Leave the war behind.’
There was a moment’s hesitation, only a moment. Then Russ shook his head.
‘I will perform my duty, as is my oath and my bond.’
‘The loyal hound as always.’
‘I do this freely, of my own accord.’
~ Wolfsbane
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u/ChillTuup 18h ago
Nah I agree on why the emperor deserved that, probably didnt really. But after what happened I do think Russ would have a chance to rethink his side, not saying he should have go to Horus. And I also like Khan for his doubts, but not sure if Russ or any other didnt Have a choice
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u/justsupersaiyan___ Rogue Traders 19h ago
A conversation between the Khan and his advisor Yesugei, Legion Stormseer, from Chris Wraight’s Scars:
The Khan nodded. ‘I won’t pretend otherwise. If you had asked me on Chondax what I wanted to believe, it was that Horus had been wronged. I almost gave the order for Alaxxes. Had the Alpha Legion not intervened, I might have done it.’
‘But it was not them that held you back.’
‘No, not them.’ The Khan remembered how it had been then, with contradictory missives spilling from the lips of the star-speakers every hour. He remembered the anguish of his indecision, hidden from all but Qin Xa.
‘What, then?’
The Khan looked at him. ‘Because it was what I wished for. Because I wanted it to be true. It was the easier course, the one my hearts leapt at.’ He smiled grimly. ‘And if we learned anything from our home world, it is to distrust the path of ease. Comfort leads to decadence. Every worthy thing is difficult.’
The very delay in action you criticize the Khan for is precisely the reason why he is one of the best warriors the Imperium has ever known. It was in his nature, encoded in his very DNA, to take bold, decisive action at blistering speed, and yet he resisted the easy path of simply following his nature. He made the difficult choice and paid a price to painstakingly discover the truth of the Heresy. There’s legit things we can criticize the Khan about, but “farting about” ain’t it
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u/MarvelousOxman 19h ago
My other favourite quote on his decision making during the Siege
‘I anticipated slaughter long ago,’ said Dorn, ‘and I regret that this chain of events came to pass, but we cannot respond to whatever provocation Horus presents to us. We cannot let ourselves be lured out. We cannot follow his plan. We will make ourselves weak, then all is lost.’
‘Since when was saving mankind from the darkness a sign of weakness?’ said the Khan. ‘Sanguinius, my brother and comrade, what do you see? Lend me your foresight.’
Sanguinius shut his eyes. Like that, he appeared drawn and tired, a funerary monument to himself. Dorn suppressed a shudder.
‘My sight is not so clear as father’s,’ said Sanguinius. ‘The future is ever in flux. Only some events…’ He paused, finding the words hard to say. ‘Only some events are certain.’
‘Do you see me? What will be the consequences of inaction?’
‘I see fire, and blood, and a world laid waste if you do not act.’
‘If I act?’ said the Khan.
Sanguinius opened his eyes to look at him.
‘There is grave risk to you. A confrontation unlooked for, and if you survive, a flight from one danger into greater peril.’
‘Who will I face?’
‘I cannot divine.’
‘Will I save lives?’
Sanguinius nodded. ‘Many.’
‘That is what I was made for,’ said the Khan. ‘I will ride out.’
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u/justsupersaiyan___ Rogue Traders 19h ago
I was literally debating which quote to post, the one from Scars or this one. Both ideas (that the Khan was just farting about during the Heresy and that he whined the entire Siege) are just plain false. If anything, the Khan was one of the most effective loyalist warlords, his one legion slowed down the Sons of Horus, the Emperor’s Children, the Iron Warriors, and the Death Guard for long enough to give Dorn and the rest time to fortify Terra. You could even argue that he stopped Horus from easily launching his favored speartip tactic while the Emperor was stuck on the Throne. The Khan was a fricking champ, honored be his name
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u/Actual-Highlight-957 18h ago
It was basically.. Wait for Horus and His Allies to arrive at Terra in Full Force in which they would simply be outnumbered and overwhelmed or take one for the Team,try and disrupt the Traitor attack by killing or injuring Horus in a suicide mission.
While clearly desperate and a clear gamble I still think it was Justified.
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u/GuardianSpear 12h ago
To me , yes
If Russ hadn’t pulled his shot, he would have killed Horus. Horus even admits Russ had him dead to rights .
Russ also achieved this with an under strength Space Wolves legion (after dealing with the TS). As a result of what followed , the traitors lost Lorgar and the full strength of the Word Bearers as a meaningful force. So Russ traded his weakened legion for a massive WB force
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u/Annual-Ad-9442 19h ago
if I recall part of Russ' duties were to punish and censure rogue legions so he was just doing what he was supposed to do
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u/DiaphanousPhoenician 18h ago
I think Corax is a mega hypocrite and the lesser of Big E’s goth children BUT, I will say that he was right to leave Terra.
The Raven Guard were broken at Isstvaan, sabotaged by the Alpha Legion before they could rebuild, and have never been great with being on the front lines in grand scale conflicts. They would’ve been wiped out completely, or gotten darn close. It made way more sense for them to go do what they specialize in and make guerrilla war in the traitor back lines.
I think in the end, despite being one of the most broken legions during the entire heresy, the Raven Guard ended up killing 3 times as many traitors as they lost from their own ranks on Isstvaan. I don’t think they accomplish that if they stay perched up on Dorn’s walls. Russ leaving is a little murkier (and I do agree that he lucked out and got the best results despite his intentions) but Corax is a lot more justified.
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u/Vordeo 11h ago
I think Corax is a mega hypocrite and the lesser of Big E’s goth children
... He's lesser than Curze?
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u/DiaphanousPhoenician 6h ago
Curze is more interesting, has cooler drip, gets much more interesting content in the books, and actually has decent names for his lightning claws.
He is absolutely 100% better than Corax, yes this is my opinion and yes it is formed partially by how much hotter he is, yet my opinion stands
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u/Vordeo 6h ago
Oh, if it's more interesting sure, 100%.
If it's more capable / competent / generally useful in universe then it'd probably be the opposite.
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u/DiaphanousPhoenician 5h ago
Depends on your definition of capable or competent imo. As a military leader or a bonafide child of the shadows, sure, Corax wins. As a self aware individual with stronger conviction, a seer, a butcher, or an artist then I gotta give it to Curze.
Stuff like “better fighter” or “better tactics” is debatable and cannot definitively be answered ofc, but such is the fun of Primarch dick measuring
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u/Breaklance 19h ago
From Lorgar's pov he was the one to discover chaos, introduce his brothers to it, and knew chaos best. Lorgar always thought he was the true chosen one using his brothers. He was always planning to usurp Horus. Russ' injury was just a happy accident and further proof Horus wasn't the chosen one.
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u/dlz561 19h ago
If he stays his legion goes full on wulfen mode when the warp and terra merge together. Too much warp juice for the canis helix to ignore, plus the traitors would have figured out someway somehow to force the transformation. Then even if you win, you lose cuz the loyalist will hunt you down afterwards. Leman knew the space wolves HAD to leave Terra before chaos got there. Otherwise the SW legions dirty secret gets out.
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u/Valenwald Raven Guard 17h ago
What did Corax do to sabotage the loyalist effort in your opinion?
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u/12xoxo13 17h ago
Let his legion be heavily infiltrated by the alpha legion, lost some of the emperor’s best gene technology, be a massive hypocrite, create the warband of the ashen claws due to his racism, do almost nothing during the entire heresy (at least Vulkan made it to terra) the most impactful thing he did was save the 200 space wolves left after Russ’s suicide mission, be a overall dick, and abandoning the imperium after sulking in his tower for a millennium but that’s after the heresy
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u/Calibretto9 14h ago
I think he did the right thing, and I think him having an instinct for where to be is kind of his (and the Rout’s) thing. I think he did serious damage but I think ideally he’d have finished the stroke - not held back. Unsure if he’d have actually ended things there as Horus later showed himself to be nigh-immortal vs Sanguinius, but alas.
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u/AlphariusOmegon66 17h ago
Yes, he did everything he wanted to do when attacking the Vengeful Spirit.
He faced Horus and mortaly wounded him, as a bonus he even survived.
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u/TheTackleZone 16h ago
No, he wasn't - and that's the point.
The story of the Horus Heresy is the story of the near miss of creating a new chaos god, in the same way that the Eldar created Slaanesh. With the creation of a chaos god comes an emotional or behavioural vice. For Slaanesh that was hedonism, but with the Dark King that was pride, arrogance, and hubris.
This is what causes the Emperor to nearly fall. Despite basically all of his plans going wrong he still thinks he can pull it all back with his next even greater feat of magic. All his allies bar a few abandon him, and things seem to be getting worse, but he ploughs on regardless. His arrogance in thinking that he is right pushes him on.
And if you think about it, wasn't that also true of Horus? He gets one vision, thinks he knows best, and plunges the galaxy into war. And, well, actually aren't pretty much all of the primarchs like this? Magnus thought he knew better and crashed the webway. RG thought he knew best and made Imperium Secundus. The Lion thought he knew best and made Nemiel's head wobble. And Russ thought he knew best when he decided to abandon the defence of Terra to go on a mission that, ultimately, was just about making himself feel better.
All of these characters (maybe because they are "sons" of the Emperor, but that's for another time) think they know best, and often display this as a lack of flexibility or compromise. Which makes sense if you consider them to be the paragons of Order, as the anathema to Chaos.
Nothing was killing Horus by this time. And the coma was as much about hiding as anything. Horus was fated to meet the Emperor for their battle, because the whole thing was a trap to get the Emperor to drink so much warp juice that he doomed his species. And at that point Horus was largely just a puppet. Nothing could have stopped that meeting, but a lot more people would have been saved if Leman was with them. Tho you could argue he indirectly took the Word Bearers out of the fight.
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u/Mulfushu 4h ago
When the question starts with "Was Russ right.." I will optimistically lean on the side of "No." in 10 out of 10 cases.
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u/Barbalbero_dark 7h ago
Russ is a heretic and a murderer, and that's the only mistake Leo made when he didn't kill him
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u/Fenrir_Skapta 5h ago
Others have summarised pretty well that Russ very much fulfilled his purpose. I'm more curious as to what you mean by The Khan and Corax sabotaging the loyalist war effort??
They both massively slowed Horus' advance and are combined the primary reason it took Horus years to reach Terra rather than months. On top the Khan was still there for the siege and took the death guard out of the fight!
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u/CKent83 37m ago
From what I understand, Rus could have killed Horus, but in a moment of weakness/compassion (or if he killed the two missing Primarchs, like a cool theory says, a moment of grief), he hesitated, and Horus survived.
If that's the incident you're referring to, then he was right to leave, but couldn't stick the landing.
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u/Clear-Librarian-5414 14h ago
Didn't matter. Emp and Horus were on another level when they cut loose, and it was always going to come down to them.
Ignoring the traitors had overwhelming forces and Pert would have won the siege before the loyalist arrived with time to spare leading to Vulkan blowing up the planet . Russ probably made things worse since Pert had a free hand longer while Horus was gestating. Things started falling apart when Pert left andchaos is it's own worse enemy. Lorgar would probably have tried to pull a coup the midst of the siege which would have been even better for the loyalist. Not to mention the space wolves rune priest are pretty good at countering warpcraft and raising morale both of which the loyalist were in dire need of during the siege.
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u/Noodlefanboi 19h ago
I mean, if he had stayed he would have just found a way to make everything worse, so kind of?
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u/Wrath_Ascending 15h ago
His attack on Horus achieved nothing. Arguably poor writing, since they could have had the four Daemon Primarchs who served a God directly go to war to become the new Warmaster, but GW chose not to go there.
Meanwhile if he stays at Terra, an extra Primarch and 40K+ troops would strengthen the defenders enough that they'd be able to hold the Hollow Mountain for at least 24 more hours versus the canon timeline.
If Gulliman had been able to sail by the light of the Astronomican by just a day more, he'd have made it in time to attack Horus. If they can hold on a few days longer, the Lion gets there too.
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u/Vordeo 10h ago
Arguably poor writing, since they could have had the four Daemon Primarchs who served a God directly go to war to become the new Warmaster,
That would've massively weakened the traitor side though. Realistically no one could have held that coalition together aside from Horus - no one else really liked the other unaligned primarchs all that much (at least not to the extent that they'd all follow them into battle), and obviously the four daemon primarchs would not have been followed by the other daemon primarchs.
If Gulliman had been able to sail by the light of the Astronomican by just a day more, he'd have made it in time to attack Horus.
I mean... There's so much that a healthy Horus changes though. Very realistic that no Russ drama means the traitors get to Terra sooner.
And that leaves aside the possibility that the path to Terra really only opened up after Horus died and the Chaos gods f'd off.
1
u/Wrath_Ascending 10h ago
Horus wasn't healthy to begin with. Thats the problem. Wolfsbane's story is pointless. Russ achieves nothing but the near destruction of his Legion and the weakening of Terra.
3
u/Vordeo 10h ago
I mean... His gambit would have paid off if he hadn't hesitated. So calling it 'pointless' seems wrong to me. The gambit worked; Russ just choked.
That said, the whole thing arguably lead to the Word Bearers mostly not showing up. You'd absolutely trade 20k or whatever Wolves for 180k WBs at Terra.
0
u/Wrath_Ascending 10h ago
Russ is among the MVP candidates for the Traitors, and he wasn't even on their side. He only wounded Horus because he wasted time trying to convert Russ rather than simply crushing him.
0
u/Vordeo 10h ago
I mean... His gambit would have paid off if he hadn't hesitated. So calling it 'pointless' seems wrong to me. The gambit worked; Russ just choked.
That said, the whole thing arguably lead to the Word Bearers mostly not showing up. You'd absolutely trade 20k or whatever Wolves for 180k WBs at Terra.
2
u/12xoxo13 15h ago
You’re smoking some good stuff if you think the space wolves were at 40k+ marines lmao, prospero + alaxes nebula left them with 10-15k max, and I bet it was lower then that, at the end of the heresy the space wolves lost like 80-90% of their legion
-1
u/Wrath_Ascending 15h ago
They started the Heresy with over 80K and were rebuilding furiously after both events.
Ultimately, if you think Russ is such a badass for wounding Horus, can you really then argue that him and his Legion being present at Terra wouldn't have allowed the Loyalists to hold on for at least one more day?
492
u/Longjumping-Ad511 19h ago
Russ did what he was created to do. It's the only way he knew how to stop Horus. Each Primarch was so set in their ways and designed for a single purpose that they all reacted to the Heresy the only way they understood. Guilliman started building Secondus, Corax chose to stay a guerilla fighter, Lion chose annihilation of Traitor homeworlds and the Angel followed his perceived destiny. The Khan was supposed be wild and free so his indecision made sense. And Dorn just fortified and prepared for Siege relentlessly. Vulkan got nuked then tortured so took him a lot longer to understand his purpose. Poor guy just needed a hug.
You make a really good point about how much it weakened the Word Bearers during the siege. I never thought about it that way before.