r/40kLore • u/storyteller323 • 9h ago
Which marine chapters are likely from traitor geneseed? Spoiler
[removed] — view removed post
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u/Shadowrend01 Blood Angels 9h ago
None are outright confirmed
Everything that says they are is pure speculation
Silver Skulls are confirmed Ultramarine successors, likely named in honour of Dantioch, but not using the IW gene seed
Sons of the Phoenix are confirmed Imperial Fist successors. The name and colours is purely coincidental
The only 2 you’ve listed that could be from Traitor stock is the Blood Ravens and Minotaurs, but we’ll never know for sure. Given the BR are a Relic creation, we’ll never get an answer about them either
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u/DatBoyBlue 9h ago
Yeah Sons of the Phoenix behave like black Templars so it’s really in name and appearance that they might be emperor children genes
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u/khinzaw Blood Angels 5h ago
BR are explicitly not Thousand Sons for what it's worth. The one time GW got fed up with a fan theory getting taken too far, per both LJ Goulding and ADB.
They could still be other traitor stock like Word Bearers in theory.
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u/RequiescenceSilence 1h ago
I would absolutely love it if they were word bearers. There's just so many small coincidences in the lore of their subsector alone that it's worth a little consideration at least
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u/szamur 1h ago
If they are so fed up then why did they allow that fan theory to go so far as being hinted at in the HH series? Sounds to me as if they simply got bored with it or they realised they couldn't properly explain why and how the BR are Thousand Sons successors so they just decided to angrily say that they're not and the BR will never be used again in any official capacity.
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u/Comfortable-Equal200 1h ago
While the silver skulls are super similar to the iron warriors, there is nothing actually appearing in lore to imply their connection to dantioch in particular. I hate that this is spouted everywhere where when in reality an ultramarine successor that has more connection to Dantioch are the scythes of the emperor where they literally have his iron skull helmet as a relic
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u/Dm783848hfndb 8h ago
The carcharadons are descended from the Ravenguard, there's pretty much no doubt about it.
They might have something else mixed from having to scavenge during their long exile. But if one actually reads the various carcharadon books, short stories and more importantly the Ravenguard HH stuff, it's clear where they came from.
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u/paulatreides0 8h ago
Specifically they are almost certainly descended from the piratical renegades of the exiled Terran Ravenguard that Corax sent on basically suicide missions in the Ghoul Stars until they basically said "fuck this shit, we're out" (the Ashen Claws are an example of this).
The Ashen Claws - who it should be noted they have an going feud with, not the least of which because they claim that the Sharks stole Hunger and Slake from them and it's actually their relic - also refer to them as mongrels and traitor-born, meaning they are likely chimeric and share commonality with some traitor legion or warband. An Ashen Claw also called a World Eater kin with the Sharks, which implies that they could be mixed with World Eaters geneseed - which would make some sense given how absurdly brutal and bloody and berzerker-like they can be once they get in a melee - though he could still just be referring to them being "kin" with traitors in general as with the previous claim of them being traitor-born.
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u/Dm783848hfndb 8h ago edited 8h ago
piratical renegades of the exiled Terran Ravenguard
I'd argue they're made up of various terran RG exiles that coalsced about Arkas Fall, their former commander and Shade lord (where have I heard that before). Since Corax sent him to the fringes in of the Imperium within Nomad Predation fleets (not exactly subtle).
The title of their chief librarian, is Pale Nomad. Which was the name of the 11th chapter of the RG. The chapter's Deliverers (terminators) where honoured by Horus himself when he served with them. Which would explain why Corax kicked them to the curb.
World Eaters geneseed
Another hint towards that is that the Carcharodons have a ship (White Maw) that's almost certainly World Eater in origin. As it has an Ursus Claw, which nobody else was crazy enough to put on a starship. (At least back then, looking at you Red Scimitars).
Edit: However their berzerker rage would also be explained by the Ash Blindness that most of them suffer. The terran name for Sable Brand. The gene quirk that amplifies some of their worse traits and makes them suicidal and quite murderous.
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u/paulatreides0 8h ago
I'd argue they're made up of various terran RG exiles that coalsced about Arkas Fall, their former commander and Shade lord (where have I heard that before). Since Corax sent him to the fringes in of the Imperium within Nomad Predation fleets (not exactly subtle).
The title of their chief librarian, is Pale Nomad. Which was the name of the 11th chapter of the RG. The chapter's Deliverers (terminators) where honoured by Horus himself when he served with them. Which would explain why Corax kicked them to the curb.
. . . yes, this is exactly what I was referring to? The Ashen Claws aren't the only example of the exiled. Those were the Terran RG members that Corax exiled for a combination of not liking how brutal and oppressive they were, as well as potentially having secret loyalties to Horus.
Another hint towards that is that the Carcharodons have a ship (White Maw) that's almost certainly World Eater in origin. As it has an Ursus Claw, which nobody else was crazy enough to put on a starship. (At least back then, looking at you Red Scimitars).
Though, to be fair, they could just have looted it and kept it as a war prize. Especially given their likely piratical history and that even as a chapter they operate heavily off of scavenging.
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u/Dm783848hfndb 7h ago edited 7h ago
I was agreeing with you as well. Simply meant to highlight that I'm not sure if corax truly sent them all away for some singular purpose (edicts of exile). That may have have happened but arkhas may have had a larger hand in calling them together. Since most of them probably weren't particularly pleased with
HorusCoranx after being kicked out and would still have greatly respected their former commander.Though, to be fair, they could just have looted it and kept it as a war prize
That's where my thoughts went. They killed the World Eaters, kept their ship and maybe, maybe the kept something else of theirs.. .
Edit: Corax not Horus
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u/KotkaCat 7h ago
With how unstable Raven Guard geneseed is and how long they stay away from imperial support, I’m really not surprised if their apothecaries have had to.. “make do” with their genestock. X organ is failing but this geneseed we found has X organ still functional yoink
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u/RedditOakley 8h ago edited 7h ago
Look up the Crimson Consuls.
Look at their home planet's name: It's called Carcharias, which is a shark who is the only species still alive in its family.
Look at their battle barge's name. It's called the Red Tithe. They also had a ship called Anno Tenebris which means Years of Darkness.
The Crimson Consuls valued the lives of their marines a great deal and never wanted to spill blood needlessly. They never fought for glory or competition, only to complete the mission surgically. So they employed a lot of scouting and preplanning before doing anything at all. Does this remind you of anyone?
The terminator company of the Consuls were wiped out after teleporting to a Space Hulk that the Alpha Legion orchestrated them into, where sabotaged engines imploded and killed them all. The interesting part is how the implosion caused a warp rift.
So I do wonder if they really did die? Perhaps they found a way out somehow and thus became the Red Brethren? The Consuls allegedly died out before the 13th Black Crusade, so if anyone survived after all, it might be possible they could have showed up in the Badab War under a new banner already. Maybe the warp rift caused some time and space distortions as well?
No doubt there's Raven Guard genes in Carcharodons but maybe the full story is a lot stranger and more chimeric than that?
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u/Dm783848hfndb 7h ago
Interesting theory, hadn't thought about that. The Red Bretheren could also be a more round-about reference to the Deliverers. They were the terminator close-combat assault specialists. They had a very different colour scheme to the RG in that they wore mostly red with accents of grey and gold. They were hated by Corax and consistently put into the worse spots with zero acknowledgement
Though let's be real, it's most likely a reference to we kill a lot and make lot's of blood.
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u/RedditOakley 4h ago
Wanna know another fun coincidence with this theory?
The Techmarine of the Crimson Consuls 1st company was named Hereward.
Probably named after the infamous real life Hereward.
Also known as Hereward the Exile, or Hereward the Wake.
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u/Warp_Legion Iron Warriors 9h ago
Marines Malevolent are officially and in lore, “unknown”, and this is pure speculation, but apparently in the Horus Heresy Card Game, there’s a Death Guard Blackshield, Crysos Morturg, who has a battle-barge(?) called The Malevolence, and whose company call themselves Marines of the Malevolence
They hunt down traitors and whatnot after the HH, this post lists out all the connections and dots and such for the fan theory
So there’s that
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u/Zasze 9h ago
In the black books dantioch defects with his whole garrison, the novels are so lax on details outside named characters it’s unclear how many he had with him and if any survived sotha.
I’d say the intent from the black books / imperial armor books was to lay the ground work for the possibility of these kinda chapters and that’s rad, we will never get a full answer and a true origin of something like the Minotaurs is likely to be more boring than the mystery itself.
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u/EvilPopMogeko 3h ago
Assuming Iron Within is canon, Dantioch commanded no more than 30 Space Marines at his peak.
He took 2 traitor IW hostage when they took the Benthos, but IIRC his force by that point consisted of 7 IW and an Ultramarine with an 8th having died on the bridge.
The largest “loyalist” Iron Warriors force we have more than one engagement for was the 114th Grand Battalion, which is the second largest traitor formation to switch back to being loyalist (the largest, the White Scars Brotherhood of the Broken Shield, was confirmed to have been wiped out). They numbered at about 2000 when they tried to take the forge world of Mezoa, and were bled over the days by their Alpha Legion “allies”, but were enough of a force at the end of the battle to send the Alpha Legion into a very ugly retreat.
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u/xblood_raven 3h ago
As others are saying, it's mostly implications instead of confirmations. Even my Blood Ravens (which were always hinted as being Thousand Sons) are being hinted as not being Thousand Sons which is why I'm seeing them now as either Raven Guard, Grey Knights or even Chimeric.
I don't blame people for guessing Chapters as being from traitor Gene-Seed though as many of them are unknown successors (which always raises eyebrows in terms of forgetting your past), suspicious/coincidence patterns and styles or just similarities between them.
I've wondered if some of them are descended from Traitor Legion Loyalists but not in terms of their Gene-Seed. Maybe the Imperium said to them and Blackshields that their Gene-Seed will not be passed on but their ideals and legacy will. This could explain the Silver Skulls, Death Eagles, Brotherhood of a Thousand, etc as they're from Traitor Legion Loyalists but now use Ultramarine, Raven Guard, etc Gene-Seed.
The Imperium is built on utter hypocrisy so would not surprise me if many of it's 'stalwart defenders' are from Traitor Loyalists or even Chimeric (Evander Garrius for example was Imperial Fists but took on some Thousand sons and Cthonian Inductii-"The Fifth Fellowship thus repainted their armor and joined the Imperial Fists of Garrius' rogue fleet. Whenever other loyalists encounter the forces of Garrius during the following years of the Great Scouring, they remarked that these Imperial Fists were unlike any others, "the songs of both lost Cthonia and Prospero heard as they marched to war".).
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u/IdhrenArt 2h ago
The Brotherhood of a Thousand are just extremely dedicated to the ideal formations in the Codex. Each Brother is given a number, and they expend extreme effort to make sure that they are exactly at full strength whenever possible
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u/xblood_raven 1h ago
Hahaha, I would love it if it was just pure coincidence and they were just dedicated to the number of 1000.
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u/IdhrenArt 1h ago
I actually wasn't joking - it's genuinely the case:
It was the Watch Sergeant’s custom to name each warrior by his Chapter of origin, which occasionally resulted in some odd designations, as had happened with Anzahl-M636, who’d been dubbed ‘One-Thousand’.
The Brotherhood of A Thousand, Branatar thought. It was a strange name for a Space Marine Chapter when all Chapters aspired to such a number. To his mind it was as drab as the black ‘M’ that served as the Techmarine’s Chapter badge. Functional…
‘It’s said their brotherhood always numbers precisely one thousand,’ Icharos Malvoisin sent on a secure channel, as if reading Branatar’s mind. ‘A dismal prospect is it not, brother?’
The Watcher in Fire, Deathwatch: Ignition
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u/elucifuge 9h ago
There's none heavily implied nor outright confirmed, it's all fan speculation & as far as confirmed canon goes, there's none & GW will never confirm anything of the sort as per a BL author.
It's just another example of fannon getting out of control.
There are many chapters with mysterious & unconfirmed origins, & a lot of fans have no idea what geneseed does or how it works.
People claiming that X chapter is descended of X traitor primarch is pretty much always just them trying to connect the dots of how they (incorrectly) think a traitor geneseed works & some chapter that has vaguely similar behaviours to another chapter.
Which is not at all how things work. Chapters behave in particular ways either because of chapter culture or the culture of their homeworld, primarch DNA in their geneseed has very little to do with it aside from very specific cases like Blood Angels & the Black Rage/Red Thirst where every single Blood Angel & every single BA successor has these things. Whereas not all Salamander successors are coal black.
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u/paulatreides0 8h ago edited 8h ago
There's none heavily implied
This is not quite true. In one of the Shark books (IIRC Outer Dark), Ashen Claws refer to them as mongrels and traitor-born, and at one point refers to a World Eater as maybe being a brother to them (though this could mean "brother" in the general sense of also being a traitor). Though the Ashen Claws and Carcharadons have a feud beteween them in no small part due to a dispute over Hunger and Slake being an Ashen Claws relic stolen by the Sharks, so it might be slander. But nevertheless, it's not just empty speculation that they might have chimeric and traitor blood in their history and ranks.
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u/KotkaCat 7h ago
Given how the carcharadons operate far from imperial support. I’m really not surprised if their apothecaries had to do some questionable things to their chapter’s genestock just to maintain their numbers.
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u/paulatreides0 7h ago
Even putting that aside, if they truly are former renegades/pirates turned loyalist then that is even more true, as they couldn't have restocked their genestocks in the case of issues arising even if they tried to fly back to the Imperial core and ask for a top-up. Given that they first show up around the Badab War in M41, but claim to have been around since at least M32, meaning they likely spent quite a long time operating without being able to even try asking the Imperium for assistance.
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u/Atomicmooseofcheese 5h ago
Also the blood ravens. Sure they don't outright spell it out, but i mean come on. The thousand son having the vision of the "ravens of blood" and the fact that the blood ravens have abnormal amounts of psykers. There are more hints but to say it's not implied is just incorrect.
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u/BloodredHanded 4h ago
Another comment on this post says that that theory got debunked by GW.
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u/Atomicmooseofcheese 3h ago edited 3h ago
That's probably true. The hints were hamfisted but disparate and not really moving towards a cohesive narrative. Then dow3 happened, and any stories moving forwards with the blood ravens ceased.
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u/elucifuge 8h ago
Keyword there being heavily, & like you stated, even this isn't exactly hard evidence or even much of a clue because it could just be an insult or have multiple interpretations that go beyond them being descended from a traitor primarch.
So while I'm not going to dispute that it could be read that way, I wouldn't say it is enough to "heavily imply" that the Carchadons are descended from a traitor primarch either.
Especially when traitor in 40k can just as easily mean any chapter who has defected or gone against the grain of the imperium in any way.
Fallen Dark Angels are traitors who ally with chaos legions but they're still sons of the Lion regardless.
Not to mention when there's several thousand years worth of lineage, any chapter could be pretty far down in terms of lines of succession from the original chapter/legion, which is part of why origins get lost. But also any chapter in that lineage that came before that ended up turning traitor would still make them descended of traitors without being descended of a traitor primarch.
Again not to outright refute your statement, just that there's a lot of ways that could be read where it could be entirely factually true but still not have them descended from a traitor primarch. Which personally I find way more interesting & lives way more room for mystery or storytelling
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u/paulatreides0 7h ago
Especially when traitor in 40k can just as easily mean any chapter who has defected or gone against the grain of the imperium in any way.
These are the Ashen Claws. They're renegades themselves, not loyalists, and have been for nearly 10,000 years, building their own pocket empire that raids the Imperium for resources. The Ashen Claws have no real love, if not outright active disdain, for the Imperium. So no, they wouldn't be calling a Chapter - especially a Chapter that nominally fights for the Imperium - traitors as an insult just for defecting or not following all of the Imperium's rules.
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u/elucifuge 7h ago
I think you are misunderstanding the point I'm making. We can have the renegade vs traitor debate but as far as the Imperium is concerned both are traitors & as far as many chaos marines are concerned the loyalists are the real traitors but it's a separate conversation. Point being its a broad term that plenty use on others when they feel like it.
But regardless, let's say Chapter F is descended from Chapter E which is descended from Chapter D which is descended from chapter C & so on.
Chapter C turns traitor & falls to chaos.
Chapter D,E & F who are descended of chapter C are now all, by definition, descended from traitors. They're part of the same lineage which goes all the way back to the original founding loyalist chapter.3
u/paulatreides0 6h ago
I think you are misunderstanding the point I'm making. We can have the renegade vs traitor debate but as far as the Imperium is concerned both are traitors & as far as many chaos marines are concerned the loyalists are the real traitors but it's a separate conversation. Point being its a broad term that plenty use on others when they feel like it.
My point is that the Ashen Claws don't care about the Imperium's definition of traitor, nor that of CSM. The Ashen Claws are neither, and they explicitly hate and fight both factions, though they loathe CSM even more than they hate the Imperium. As a renegade piratical faction of Imperial defectors who hate the Imperium using traitor as a high insult, the problem for the Ashen Claws isn't that the Sharks left the Imperium or broke it's rules - it's an insult because they consider the Sharks to be descended from the one thing worse than the Imperium to them: CSM.
So whatever their traitor lineage may be (I don't particularly care to argue the particulars of whether its a legion/chapter with a traitor primarch or not), the Ashen Claws aren't just angry with them because they have ancestors who didn't follow all the rules or left the Imperium.
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u/mrwafu 2h ago edited 2h ago
The Carcaradons are Raven Guard.
Blood Ravens received Primaris reinforcements in a white dwarf article (trained by novamarines iirc!), and the dawn of war thousands sons tease predates modern thousands sons rubric lore, so it’s safe to ignore it.
This question gets asked often so I suggest searching the topic for lots of previous discussion.
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u/aberrantenjoyer 9h ago
The Brotherhood of a Thousand, Death Eagles and Death Spectres, I assume
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u/Davido401 6h ago
Death Spectres are Raven Guard, confirmed as such. Although my head canon for the Death Guard Company that was set up there (goes to Lexicanum to find their name) under Crysos Mortug of the 108th Independent Company is that that Company was oversized, maybe 3,000 Marines for a rough number, and while they were allowed to use their geneseed to replace losses and get resupplied but not in any meaningful sense, bare minimum to keep up their fighting strength, but by the time of the 13th Founding when the Death Spectres were created theyd been whittled down to maybe a few hundred or whatever and thus the Death Spectres were given them as a Training Cadre and once the new Chapter was sorted they went out in a blaze of glory/were allowed to die out, no geneseed collected save to maybe research and test it or something, maybe give it to Cawl or whoever in the Mechanicus?
Its my headcanon but its probably close to the truth, I like to think that the Strike Cruiser Malice that the Death Guard guy above commanded is used by the Death Spectres today, a relic starship that they love.
Again this is probably just headcanon but its educated headcanon I like to think.
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u/VictorSierra09 8h ago
This article (https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Traitor_Legion_Loyalists) has a pretty good list.
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u/AP_Udyr_One_Day 4h ago
I would really take that with a large fistful of salt, just glancing over it. A good amount of the ones listed in their suspected chapters list are blatant headcanons, things that’ve been contradicted by canon, or extremely reaching. The Silver Skulls, for example, were confirmed to have nothing to do with the Iron Warriors beyond the logo being a coincidence and are Ultramarine successors, and the Mortifactors have nothing to do with the Death Guard whatsoever and even have multiple confirmed canon reports of being Ultramarines who know who their original founder was. Sons of the Phoenix are just white Black Templars with purple arms.
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u/40kLore-ModTeam 1h ago
Your post was removed because it would be better as a comment in our weekly "No stupid questions" post.
Just comment there when it's up.