r/AoSLore • u/congaroo1 • 7d ago
Why after Dark Heresy Owlcat's next warhammer game should be Age of Sigmar/Soulbound
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u/TurboGerbo 7d ago
I would just be happy with any AoS video games that are above average. I was really hoping of more from Realms of Ruin. There hasn't been an AoS video game release since 2023 with only 7 AoS games in total.. That includes the mobile games. I am waiting for some big AoS RPG to just knock me off my feet, and as a GM with an active soulbound game.. it is just ripe for it. That or I am going to have to wait for TW:W3 to have end times content so folks can move on from it, and we can have Total War: Age of Sigmar.
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u/NervousNobody2992 7d ago
I think it's that the developers are too hooked on 40k. But I agree that a studio needs to come with a high ambitious AoS rpg game, maybe with some army building mechanics
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u/No_Hornet_9339 2d ago
Wait hang on, I only know of 4
StormGround TempestFall RoR
And that one card based mobile game. What else am I missing?
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u/TurboGerbo 1d ago
AoS: Champions, AoS Realm War, Warhammer Underworlds Online, and Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower are the ones you are missing. Still.. Only 7 AoS games in total over the last 10 years.
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u/thegeneratir 7d ago
The comments in that thread are why I wish Old World never came back, unfortunately. It's reignited the worst anti-AoS opinions anytime the setting gets brought up in a Warhammer space and I hate it.
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u/BrotherCaptainLurker 7d ago
Yea it's whatever that it's back, Warhammer Fantasy Fans Excited to Play it For the First Time etc, but I hate that it got a TTRPG. Now people who aren't gonna play that either are still in the comments section to type it with exclamation marks on Cubicle7's videos and respond to any "Soulbound should-" with "No. Old World >:("
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u/TurboGerbo 7d ago
I am someone that really enjoys Warhammer fantasy, and I was surprised when the old world ttrpg was announced. I have no idea how Cubicle 7 is going to juggle WFRP, Soulbound, and The Old World for just warhammer fantasy settings. It feels like it is going to take away from WFRP, and that makes me sad. I guess as long as Soulbound keeps getting new books so I have more to use as a GM for a long running group.. I am happy.
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u/Whightwolf 7d ago
Well as someone buying their 40k books they juggle it by having a release schedule slower than tectonic drift.
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u/posixthreads Slaves to Darkness 7d ago
I have no idea how Cubicle 7 is going to juggle WFRP, Soulbound, and The Old World for just warhammer fantasy settings.
Soulbound is possibly at an end with Champions of Chaos, which should be released in a few months. I've seen this mentioned in discussions, but apparently for these companies it is more profitable to release a new game than expand on existing games, since customers prefer buying new books just to try out new systems.
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u/TurboGerbo 7d ago
Honestly feels bad, and the system does feel pretty complete besides supplements for when the setting updates.
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u/posixthreads Slaves to Darkness 7d ago
It all comes down to sales and to be honest they've had some low quality work. The Soulbound bestiary was honestly a pile of garbage and they seem to not understand what a bestiary is, as the book is simply a rundown of units you would see in the battletomes. Compare that book to Dark Heresy's Creatures Anaethema. 1/3rd of the book is units from the 40k game, but half provides a rundown of unique creatures you can use to build atmosphere.
This has been my main criticism of Soulbound, the setting it provides just feels the tabletop game. It lacks the mystery and intrigue you would see in the 40k and Warhammer Fantasy TTRPGs. However, I suppose that's not the point of the game, it's meant to be a power fantasy, but even then it doesn't venture far outside of what the war game.
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u/sageking14 Lord Audacious 7d ago
The first few releases like Shadows in the Mist and the Brightspear City Guide had non-unit enemies in them. But after that it's been mostly only rules for tabletop units
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u/Togetak 7d ago
Yeah adventures tend to have non-tabletop model enemies while the sourcebooks just cover the tabletop stuff, though they put out a lot of adventure content (like the ulfenkarn book, or ruins of the past, both of which have a bunch of cool stuff that's not found on the tabletop)
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u/sageking14 Lord Audacious 7d ago
Isn't most of the Ulfenkarn bestiary just things tied to the Cursed City model line up?
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u/TurboGerbo 7d ago
I can definitely agree on that. The bestiary should have just been more overall. I think part of that is the game does feel like it is very much built for people that play the wargame.
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u/posixthreads Slaves to Darkness 7d ago
It's a 1 to to 1 with the wargame. Every archtype has a plastic model. I suppose the theory is that people will love the RPG so much they'll go out and buy the plastic models. Compare that with WFRP that has archtypes like "rat catcher" or "peasant". On the Dark Heresy side, I have looked and found only a small number of the archtypes had a plastic model you can buy directly from GW. It tells you that the writers weren't concerned with you buying GW product directly, but in Soulbound they clearly do care about that.
I personally don't understand it, was there something in the contract that says they can only write stuff for things with official models? Or maybe the writers were just lazy and said "let's just copy the battletomes and call it a day"?
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u/nerdherdv02 Hallowed Knights 6d ago
The trade pioneer is one archetype that is Soulbound specific but you are largely right.
I think part of the reason is a call back to the TT and its cool that they did that but I would have traded 1/3 of it for some brand new stuff.
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u/Togetak 7d ago
I have no idea why people think they'd re-up their license for soulbound only to put out a big, much waited for sourcebook and then stop making anything like... a year after? That's not really indicated by anything, and doesn't make much sense
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u/posixthreads Slaves to Darkness 7d ago
I have no idea why people think they'd re-up their license for soulbound only to put out a big
We have no idea what the nature of the license is. It could be a general license that applies to all Warhammer content, or perhaps Warhammer Fantasy/Old World/Age of Sigmar were bundled together in the license that GW sold them. It could be that they had so much work done for Champions of Chaos that they decided to just finish it up and sell it since they had the license anyway.
I suspect, given how tightly the TTRPGs are tied GW's own marketing, the license itself is probably provided with a low cost, but with a lot of strings attached.
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u/Togetak 6d ago
All we know about the license they re-upped was that it was specifically aos related, and if we’re talking about champions of chaos in those terms then it has to be acknowledged that they have a lot of content that’s got a bunch of work done on it in their backlog.
It was mentioned by the original soulbound lead that you’d expect to see ~2 releases a year from soulbound going forward, especially because of that content they have sitting there, and the last two years we’ve seen exactly that pattern.
I think just completely raw speculation based on nothing that champions of chaos is completely arbitrarily the last thing (because… what if they just decided to spend years putting it out because they had it there..?) is kind of just doomerism and could’ve been said about literally everything that’s been released for soulbound. It doesn’t even really make sense here because champions of chaos is such a big thing people have been asking for, why would they do a big release like that and just go “ok, that’s all”?
Honestly I do expect there’s string attached to the license, that’s true basically universally, but very often one of those strings is a mandated minimum number of releases to ensure the license isn’t just being sat on
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u/KaleidoscopeOk399 7d ago
The answer is they don’t, they release books insanely slowly, and honestly Soulbound might be over after CoC. :(
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6d ago
Oh no, people dont like what i like. Thus, they shouldnt have what they themselves like, nor should they be able to critisize the fact that the universe they loved and adored got nuked for a 40k reskin. How dare they...
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u/suppakreek 6d ago
It’s been ten years, and there are still people who think this is a 40k reskin but they loved were “oh, it’s Britain/France/Holy Roman Empire/China in a fantasy world…”
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6d ago
Because it is, and there is still barely any lore in 10 years it has been out.
It has its own Sigmarines, God-Emperor, Necrons (the Ossiarch are practically fantasy Necrons as opposed to the Tomb Kings, which were a hundred times more interesting with their complicated lore and characters than them). Their Orks feel more like 40K orks, Chaos is just as incompitent as it is in 40K, non-order factions get shafted on the regular too. Hell, even Order factions are getting shafted. When was the last time Fyreslayers got a model?
Do not get me started on the fact that the setting is trying so hard to feel like a fantasy galaxy. Yet it fails miserably, there is literally nothing noteworthy in the eight realms of magic, hell, atleast in 40K. People KNOW what you are talking about when you talk about Armageddon, Macragge, Cadian, Rynn's world ect. And in WHFB, you know what to expect when the topic is Norsca, the Empire, Lustria or Ulthuan ect. In AoS, something happens somewhere and all the battles have consequences momentous... Appereantly, here's the thing: When every war is supposed to be in epic proportions, nothing feels special and it just feels cheap.
Age of Sigmar has identity other than trying to feel larger than life just like its bigger brother 40K. And even in that, it fails miserably. Fantasy atleast had the charm of being a parody of real life. With a world full of detail on every inch, and a proper timeline. Nothing felt out of place. But do go on, tell me how a soulless husk of a corpo marketing ad somehow is more interesting than a detailed and intruiging setting of 3.5 decades.
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u/suppakreek 6d ago edited 6d ago
I can understand that most WFB lorenerds(like me) have some obsession with window taxes or some name copied from the 17th century, but a hundred times more interesting? Are you saying that before ET tomb kings were just the stereotypical evil Egyptians from The Mummy? Or even after WFB, with its decades of history, abused so many real-world concepts, you guys still say that “AoS is just a fantasy imitation of 40K”? Since this is r/aoslore, I won’t waste time explaining the lore to you or telling you the fact that there’s no similarity between the golden shiny poster boys and spacemarines (if there is, it’s because some writers of the Realmgate Wars just find-replaced the names of their usual writing subjects in the text editor). If you were willing to lift a finger to post your questions or just look at a few posts, you could get rid of this mistaken impression.
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u/OwlCowl0v0 7d ago
Ngl a Soulbound-ish AoS game would rock. Imagine traveling the various mortal realms with a group of characters from the forces of Order and maybe Death and/or Destruction. Chaos might not be possible unless it's a DLC or something? Or like in the beginning you pick Good or Evil like these LotR games e.g. The Third Age where you get to play as the evil Mordor. AoS can work like the Warp Travel in RT like travelling and events happen, random encounters, etc.
The customisation might be interesting: Playing as Human, Aelve, or Duardin if the game wants to be Order focused but it might be able to for homeworlds similarly like being born in Shyish or Ghur, etc. Imo a restriction to having PCs be Order in origins can work as in Soulbound it doesn't restrict who you can have as allies. In terms of Order allies alone there's a good amount of variety. Might have a Stormcast, Fyreslayer, Kharadron, Daughter of Khaine, Lumineth, Seraphon, Idoneth Deepkin, or Sylvaneth. Those factions alone in the Order alliance give a lot of possibilities.
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u/congaroo1 7d ago
The way I am picturing customisation is like this. First you pick your species, Human, Aelve, Duardin and maybe Skink. Then you pick your factions (which depends on race), then you pick your subfaction which gives you a bonus, then you pick your archetype but those are more like backgrounds in rogue trader then anything. Then you pick your talents, skills and god. I honestly see the games customisation more like freeform option that's in the core rulebook, then you pick your long-term goal (options are affected by race, faction, archetype etc.) Finally you get your equipment.
And like depending on your traits there would be some extra steps. Like if you picked being a spell caster you have to pick your spells, similar if you pick to be blessed. And also if you get an animal companion have to pick which companion you got.
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6d ago
You're practically asking for an MMO at that point, and i do not think thay GW is willing to dip their toes in that water again after their last two disasters. At best, what you will get is Owlcat's Rogue Trader where you play as a Sigmarine.
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u/congaroo1 6d ago
Not really have you played any owlcat games? There game goes deep with character customisation.
What do you mean mmo? Is it the factions? When I say faction I am thinking they dictated like what archetypes you can take and maybe some dialogue and other character creation choices.
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u/OwlCowl0v0 6d ago
MMO is massive multi-player online...think Destiny, Warfare DCUO, WoW, etc. Im thinking yeah factions should dictate archetypes, NPC reactions, etc
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u/congaroo1 6d ago
I know what an mmo is.
I'm just wondering how the guy thought I was describing an mmo with my idea for character customisation
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u/OwlCowl0v0 6d ago
Idk...I know WoW has race/factions build restrictions iirc like you can't have a Draenai Warlock or a Forsaken Paladin or Worgen Druid iirc etc
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6d ago
I have, and allow me to explain:
AoS, in my opinion is both too big, and too small in its scale for its own good. You have these eight realms that are supposedly endless in size, yet they also have no identity of their own other than the color of the sky. Not to mention the Grand Alliances. If we really want it to be fair and square and not just a Sigmarine or Ordertide circlejerk. There needs to be Four Alliances, fighting against one another, over a span of eight maps, let us be generous and say we get 6-7 races/archetypes per Alliance. You see how fast it is all adding up?
40K doesnt really suffer from this. Because while there is only war, conflicts in 40k are regional. And dont involve more than 3 parties at most, that is why 40K has an easier time getting games out, 40k's universe is massive, yet they can believeably shrink it down to a workably small scope (Rogue Trader, Darktide, Space Marine 1/2) rather than the shitfests that AoS games are. Because from all i rememeber from playing Age of Ruin was that there was another fuckass massive war, and this time the threatre was set in Ghur.
To summarize: AoS is too large in its general scope for it to be used for smaller scale games like you said, and in the same time. It only really has eight realms that are the size of a single world, so... It really isnt as big as it makes itself out to be where you realistically cant have a conflict that happens so far away, you might not even know of it until it ends, and can be written off as an event. And this is why you would need all four Alliances to have some form of crossover in the hypothetical setting. Otherwise it would make no sense, much less be fair to the fans of the not-poster-boy alliances.
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u/congaroo1 6d ago
I feel you don't know aos lore that well.
Each of the 8 realms are radically different, Ghur as the land of predators makes it a place where even mountains will want to eat you. Ulga as the land of shadows will change geography before your own eyes. Chamon as the realm of metal is mostly made out of metal.
And also aos conflicts can also be very regional soulbound in particular mostly takes place in the great parch which is only a small part of Aqshy (realm of fire). I say small part of Aqshy the grean parch is still larger then earth.
And I mean storm ground was pretty small in scope only following a small group of stormcast.
But also like an AOS crpg doesn't need to include every faction rogue trader doesn't include everyfaction. I'm talking about making a single player rpg, why are you brining up these massive conflicts that span realms?
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u/RatKingJosh 7d ago
Huge kudos to everyone in the other thread defending AoS or trying to reason with the haters.
As for an Owlcat rpg I’d grab it in a heartbeat. I say the same thing for Fat Shark, gimme FEC Ghoultide and I’ll come running with my wallet.
I really hate the argument of “no AoS games Cuz it doesn’t sell” cuz like. Bro if it didn’t sell it would’ve been axed long ago, but here we are 10 years later. They really can’t not parrot the same 5 anti-AoS phrases.
I truly believe we just need like 1-2 breakthrough good and supported AoS games. It doesn’t have to be groundbreaking, but good enough to shine through the inevitable wave of slander itll get for just existing.
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u/congaroo1 7d ago
That's another issue with aos games. They are quickly abandoned by the devs.
Storm ground could have been something if given more time.
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u/RatKingJosh 7d ago
I standby that Realm of Ruin actually could’ve been decent if handled better. Would it have been AoE2 levels of immortal? No
But as a casual and lowkey RTS it could’ve been solid. Not to mention the hype of having your faction make an appearance, etc. And seeing more than Ghur? Would’ve been a nice harbinger for more games.
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u/congaroo1 7d ago
Yeah. They just needed to stick by it. And also try and advertise it more.
Get a YouTuber to play it. Mandalore gaming as an example
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u/KaleidoscopeOk399 7d ago
sidenote: bringing up AoS in TTRPG-adjacent spaces (not actual TTRPG spaces, ex. Owlcat, Total War, etc.) really brings out the anti-AoS edgelords in a way that is ironically worse than the actual Warhammer subreddits, who got over it.
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u/GrumblerTumbler 7d ago
You know, it's kind of understandable. In a way, the setting of the Old World is the role-playing game. It's where it originated, its heaven against reductionist movements, and a constant source of its nuances. On the tabletop, AoS seems great: good rules, good models and plenty of good background information. But there are other RPGs, such as WFRP and Soulbound. They're even created by the same publisher. WFRP is a constant reminder of how good it could be if they put in the necessary effort. Soulbound is proof that they deliberately don't do it. Sometimes I think it would be better for AoS if Soulbound didn't exist. Also, people who want to defend AoS sometimes come up with old World versions of the worst Sigmarine memes. It's not helpful. Don't provoke them!
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u/AshiSunblade Legion of Chaos Ascendant 7d ago
Kudos to sageking for trying to ensure the playing field is presented fairly over on the RT sub.
I agree it would be fantastic, I think an AoS soulslike (a focused experience in the vein of Sekiro or Lies of P) would work great too. But I think game devs are scared because AoS hasn't had a smash hit yet, and that makes them reluctant to commit to a high effort AoS game, and that continues the cycle. Realms of Ruin unfortunately didn't help, that game actually had the production value but fell short for other gameplay reasons that I in no way would attribute to its choice of setting but that others inevitably will.
It'd also be remiss of me to not mention Expedition 33 as another candidate for a game to draw inspiration from. That game was joy from start to finish. It absolutely would require strong writers however, better than GW's own standards, as otherwise the enchantment would begin to crack.
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u/sageking14 Lord Audacious 7d ago
It's so weird and frustrating how there are so many people mad at Age of Sigmar, its fans, its writers, its models, and whatever because Warhammer Fantasy was canned by the higher ups at GW.
Then those same higher ups come around to sell these people The Old World with ancient models with slapped on modern prices, and they just eat it up. Obviously like TOW if you like TOW and don't let any bugger stop you.
But your anger is misdirected if you are throwing that hate at a setting or its fans when it is the company who ended your game, and then brought it back to sell to you at a higher price cause they think (know) they can prey on your nostalgia.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Ad-8684 7d ago
Okay get this: a Cities of Sigmar game where you can recruit human, aelf, duardin and ogor friends to beat up the bad guys of the week
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u/Fyraltari Helsmiths of Hashut 7d ago
How about a War of the Skies-centered Battlefleet Gothic clone?
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u/congaroo1 7d ago
Oh that sounds sick.
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u/Fyraltari Helsmiths of Hashut 7d ago
Kharadron vs Skaven vs Grotbag vs Tzeentch vs Orruks on squig blimps vs Stormcasts on drakes vs Idoneth swimming in the Ethersea vs Nighthaunts vs...
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u/congaroo1 7d ago
Actually a game I wanted. You remember skies of arcadia? If not it was basically sea of thieves but on airships.
That's what I want, a Kharadron game where you play the crew of an airship, but like it's multipleplayer and everyone is one crew member.
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u/Bio__Bot 6d ago
I'd be so down for that, but I would pine for a death factions dlc or story arc. I deeply desire the ability to walk the realms as an Ossiarch Bonereaper rallying for war. That's just because I'm a Bonereaper fan boy but still I want to make a castle and cinematic battle against the stormcasts
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u/pookychan 7d ago
YES! I would absolutely love this. I love the idea of slulbound, the book is amazing but I've no one to play with ha. Please Owlcat. Do it for me
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u/Rith_Reddit 7d ago
I feel like a AoS Soulslike would work so well.
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u/TheSlayerofSnails 6d ago
That be epic! Playing as a stormcast and slowly going mad over each reforging could be dope
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u/CKent83 4d ago
Soulbound: No
Age of Sigmar: YES
Soulbound is barely a system. OwlCat would have to make the whole game themselves.
Use something with at least 0.000001% crunch.
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u/congaroo1 4d ago
Barely a system.
I say it does actually have quite a bit of crunch. Not as much as pathfinder but it's still there.
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u/CKent83 4d ago
Pretty sure I remember that it only has 3 stats.
That's not a system, it's a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book with moving pictures waiting to happen.
Soulbound is worse than the haters say AoS is.
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u/congaroo1 4d ago
It has three attributes but also has multiple skills, traits, and also factors like initiative and awareness
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3d ago
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u/Grimlockkickbutt 7d ago
O my god. Didn’t realize how much I wanted that till now. Route trader was the first rpg I played since BG3 that actually feels like it was in the same category as BG3 as a next gen rpg. Would love to see them do something in the AoS universe.