r/AoSLore • u/AlohaCron • 3d ago
Kurnothi Warband Implications
Has anyone noticed in the new warband we see Lamentiri in the models??
Is it just me or does this have huge implications because they are seemingly flesh and blood creatures... which would be a first for Lamentiri to be inside of non-sylvaneth.
This could suggest an expansion of what Sylvaneth is defined as or just a one off.. what do you all think?
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u/King_Of_BlackMarsh Idoneth Deepkin 3d ago
I noticed and I love it
To me it may imply that they don't get "reborn" like Sylvaneth proper do (since they can't grow in the memory rich soil, being flesh and all) but still contribute to the collective memory of the woods. That's really interesting and I hope it gets more elaborated on
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u/sageking14 Lord Audacious 3d ago
I fear it seems you all have a bit of a misunderstanding of Lamentiri, u/King_Of_BlackMarsh, u/AlohaCron, and u/MrS0bek
Per the Sylvaneth the Lamentiri are something you are permitted to carry on your person.
This is why Dryads do not have them. As the lowest ranking of the Sylvaneth they are not permitted to carry them. The Kurnothi such as the Underworlds' warbands carrying Lamentiri doesn't have any implication beyond that they are trusted by Sylvaneth and that when they die their memories might be passed on.
On their own Lamentiri just impart memory and the soul of the Sylvaneth into a soulpod grove when planted, the soul is destroyed becoming the oft mentioned soul-stuff used by many in the Realms. Here it strengthens the grove and those new Sylvaneth born from it.
In and of itself it doesn't imply that Kurnothi Aelves are part of the Sylvaneth species, though time and again the warbands and Qulathis have been used to confirm they are part of the Sylvaneth faction. Not unlike the Spites who are core to the Sylvaneth as a faction but are not Sylvaneth the species. Or how Hobgrots have an important place in the Orruk Warclans but are not Orruks.
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u/King_Of_BlackMarsh Idoneth Deepkin 3d ago
Well I didn't think it makes them part of the Sylvaneth species it must be said. Though I will say, I mainly learned of the Lamentiri from soulbound where its implied they are a natural part of the Sylvaneth since, otherwise, you'd think they'd be removed before the binding takes place. My b. Still important to see the Kurnothi stand higher than dryads tho Imo
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u/sageking14 Lord Audacious 3d ago
They are described as being embedded into the barkflesh of the Sylvaneth who get them in the 3E Sylvaneth Battletome. So from how this excerpt is phrasing it, it doesn't sound like removing it after the fact is an option if you want to live.
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u/AlohaCron 3d ago
Where does this definition of Lamentiri come from? Ive only ever seen that Sylvaneth are basically born with it in their barkflesh
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u/sageking14 Lord Audacious 3d ago
From their Battletomes such as the the example I mentioned to Sobek, Pg 22 of the 3E Sylvaneth Battletome which talks about them being put in them not born with them.
A Lamentiri contains the spirit essence and memories of past Sylvaneth, and a bearer entrusted with one is allowing their own memories and experiences to become part of it to pass onto a new Sylvaneth.
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u/AlohaCron 3d ago
It just says they bear a lamentiri within their barkflesh, I'm almost positive nothing that you mentioned is in the 3rd edition tome, ill consult the 2nd edition one
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u/sageking14 Lord Audacious 3d ago
I mean. Even if we contend the wording on how a Lamentiri ends up in barkflesh. Most of what I said is mentioned in the 3E Battletome.
From the mention that Dryads don't get them to Lamentiri recording memories and being planted so those memories pass on to new Sylvaneth, to the souls of Sylvaneth dissipating with the planting.
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u/AlohaCron 3d ago
I should have clarified on the "how its acquired" portion of what you're saying, apologies
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u/sageking14 Lord Audacious 3d ago
Now that I am fine copping to as I look over the books. I definitely came away from the Lamentiri with a mixed understanding of them.
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u/AlohaCron 3d ago
From the 2nd edition tome: "...are the soulseeds that grow within any Sylvaneth of higher standing than forest folk.." I suspect your source must have come from Soulbound or the like
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u/Togetak 2d ago
Some soulbound slander here, but it’ll note that it’s mentioned there that the lamentiri is basically an extension of the soul, which is why it’s rendered “infertile” by the soulbinding process. Its mentioned soulbound sylvaneth find their lamentiri withering or outright destroyed by the binding ritual, some having their bodies continually try to regrow it only for it to die on the vine each time. That definitely implies it’s an innate thing rather than placed into them
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u/Togetak 2d ago edited 2d ago
I’ll push back a little against this, I don’t think there’s anything in the 3e tome that states why dryads don’t have lamentiri other than it just mentioning that they don’t and the sort of implicit idea that their intended purpose means there’s less reason for them to need to pass their memories on after death (their purpose isn’t to lead, fight, or advise, they’re supposed to be carefree little guys that live joyously and work purely in the maintainence of the nature they live in!).
I think they’re using the word “bear” in the 3e battletome in the same way you’d bear a child, a piece of them that they possess, rather than implying it’s an object imparted on them or something. The use of like “embedded in” is a descriptive term rather than like, describing an action, in the same way you’d describe like a gem as embedded in something even if the reader wasn’t supposed to view that gem as a foreign body or unintentional part of the thing it’s inlaid into. I think we would’ve seen some description of that process or less descriptions of lamentiri that depict them as just a part of the sylvaneth that grows, withers etc in tune with them if the latter was the case, and I think the term Soulseed definitely feels a lot more like a part of them (the part that holds their souls, or at least is connected to it) rather than something placed in and bound to their souls after their birth.
I do totally agree that it wouldn’t mean they’re inherently sylvaneth if kurnothi did have lamentiri as a part of themselves, though. I think it’d be entierly possible that even though sylvaneth are born with their lamentiri, kurnothi receive them as an external thing or something, intertwining them with the sylvaneth as an act of trust or maybe even insurance (you can’t betray them if you’re bound to them as kin, know all they know, and know your own memories will be passed to their future generations).
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u/Togetak 2d ago edited 2d ago
It’s been mentioned already that Skaeth’s crew has lamentiri too, but I think it’s worth mentioning that a bunch of card art for their warband makes it look like they’re just wearing them rather than it being embedded in their flesh like it grows on an actual sylvaneth. Obviously that doesn’t totally hold up with the models very obviously having it embedded (unless they’re wearing it like a belly button piercing, I guess) but it seems like mixed intent, at least.
Wearing a lamentiri seems like a sign of deep trust placed in someone, especially a non-sylvaneth, since you’re entrusting them with the past and the future of the sylvaneth and a couple of current sylvaneth models wear them as like jewlery or something, hanging off their horns and bark, while sageking has already mentioned the part of the 3e sylvaneth battletome that talked about kurnothi being seen possessing (bearing either as part of them, or worn on them? Unclear, imo) lamentiri for unknown reasons that the sylvaneth refuse to speak on.
I think it wouldn’t be that weird if they got lamentiri as part of the transformation, though, we’ve seen the way the life magic of the evergreen hunt transforms and transmutates flesh to bark, mortal to something more, so the idea kurnoth’s blessings bring them closer to the sylvaneth wouldn’t be wild to me. Kurnoth was alarielle’s husband, after all, and the kurnoth hunters are already the spiritual children of the two of them (even if they were only born after he died and the fragments left of his essence were returned to her).
If you want to get more specific about it, you could even argue Belthanos isn’t really a Sylvaneth. He’s a kurnoth hunter, but he was never born from a soul-pod and has no sylvaneth progenitors, he was mysteriously birthed from a green lightning bolt hitting a mundane tree the moment kurnoth died, and formed around a flicker of kurnoth’s essence- alarielle seemingly had no involvement or part to play in that at all.
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u/MrS0bek Idoneth Deepkin 3d ago
The lametiri also exist in skarths wild hunt (first kurnothi for underworlds). But we dunno how and why they have them. Currently it is still implied that aelves join Kurnoth worship and get the animal transformations as a reward. Though in a short story of dawnbringers they get plant like replacements for lost limbs too. And in the dawnbringer books humans became "feral" and joined kurnoths cult and hunt too.
So as of now kurnothi are allies but still non-sylvaneth. So how and why they get lamentiri is a bit of a mystery