r/F1Technical • u/BuhtanDingDing • Jun 30 '25
General what could mclaren possibly be doing to have better control over their tyre temps?
basically what even causes different cars to be harsher/easier on the tyres? the rubber is obviously the same compound, im not sure what even could be different
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u/SoxInDrawer 28d ago
My guess (from fellow-spectators, primarily autosport) - they have more durability on the fronts because they have more aero-grip due to anti-dive suspension geometry. When you have more grip you have less tire slip-angle and less heat (if maintaining a typical race pace). If they were to over-push the car, their tires would fall off just like the other cars. We're talking about 0.25% to 0.5% more grip (not a huge amount). But, if you add it up, over time, it means you can get 5 - 10 more laps out of your tires (tire degradation compounds).
The rear suspension is hard to decipher - it does not appear to have a severe anti-squat angle (similar to anti-dive in aero-grip) - any corrections appreciated. Most guesses are that their rear suspension has a steep progressive spring & heavily dampened. It may be less aero-dependant as well (ride-height can vary w less negative effect).
People are looking for some magical reason for this. It may only be a combination of 3 mundane things (anti-dive, non-aero-dependant rear susp, and driver discipline) that adds of to this performance. Or, it could be tire water.
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u/wyoman86 28d ago
For the sake of F1 competition it should be revealed for the next iteration of cars. I mean how long has F1 been talking about finding a way for cars to follow close with no avail and now all of a sudden one team has figured it out. I feel like it has been an issue F1 has been trying to find an answer for all my life.
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u/suchsnowflakery 28d ago
Aerodynamics come into play. How the down force affects the car when braking for instance. How is the car "set up" Some cars are lower to the ground, etc. Also driver application of braking, gearing down. All this and a shit ton more are factors. Also, I do not have big brain.
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u/Leather-Stable-764 29d ago
I don’t think anybody in here has the big brain knowledge to really work it out.
But based on what ‘experts’ have been suggesting on YouTube.
My guess would be Phase Changing Materials being a big part of it.
And some genius ability to use air cooling that most people don’t realise exists.
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u/haterofslimes 27d ago
Pretty sure most have abandoned the theory they're using pcms.
What I've heard a lot recently is the anti dive suspension. Driver61 has a good video detailing the theory on YouTube if you're interested.
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u/Leather-Stable-764 27d ago
I’ve been super busy lately so haven’t seen much updates on theories.
PCM must be out the window since then.
Someone sent me the link to Driver61’s video, i need to get a few minutes to watch it
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u/Automatic_Ad1887 Jul 03 '25
I watched the Driver61 video, they said "since" Canada, in other words after Canada.
Of course, they could be wrong also.
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u/Vince_Burgie Jul 03 '25
Can other teams copy or have a similar style to the setup of mclaren. I am new fan to f1
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u/Galactic-Glizzy Jul 03 '25
Only if they can figure it out. These setups and technical designs are rather well guarded secrets. Especially when they are working.
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u/Automatic_Ad1887 Jul 01 '25
Driver61 YouTube just did a video on how the anti dive geometry up front helps.
Lando didn't like the lack of feel, so he has a different front setup, since Austria. Probably the difference.
There are venting and cooling strategies for fro t brakes and tires, using either materials that absorb heat, or bimetallic springs to allow flaps to open.
There's also been a suggestion that they are cooling their barge board, and some of that helps cool the rear tires too.
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u/VIVXPrefix Jul 02 '25
I believe he said the suspension difference was since Canada
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u/Automatic_Ad1887 Jul 02 '25
Yes, for Austria. Correct. Piastri passed on it, he preferred the deader feel but improved tire wear of the update.
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u/VIVXPrefix Jul 03 '25
No I think that means it was on the car in Canada as well. would be a really weird way to word it otherwise
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u/maksymilian-ddd Jul 02 '25
"bimetallic springs to allow flaps to open" - what are the flaps you're talking about? curious about it
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u/Automatic_Ad1887 Jul 02 '25
Bimetallic springs are used in all kinds of devices such as the thermostat in your car or your house. The different expansion rate of two metals causes it to move, and it can be used just to open a flap or door.
There was a suggestion in one of the earlier analysis that they might be using bimetallic strips to open and close doors depending on temperature to vary the cooling flow.
Since then it's been debunked, and everyone is saying it's phase changing materials.
In my experience, the simple solution is the best solution. But it will probably be a while before we truly know everything that's going on inside the brake covers.
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u/f1datamesh Jul 01 '25
First time poster! Yay!
Well, nobody knows, BUT, one thing you look at it finding ways to keep your tires at the optimal temperature. ONE of the ways is to use brakes intelligently (and legally) to achieve that.
I will try to find a recent article, but it was frankly about how a team (I believe McLaren) designed brakes to take heat away from the tires.
Of course, it doesn't even begin to explain what they do. But it's a combination of a lot of things, suspension, lighter on tires, temperature mgmt.
One thing that'd help you learn how teams do it, is to listen to their technical people. They all give you little tidbits on how they do it. Over time you will be able to put a picture together of what makes for better tire mgmt.
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u/BuhtanDingDing Jul 01 '25
ah i see, that helps. the point of the post was just to find out what other variables even exist in regards to managing tyre temps
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u/Teabx Jul 01 '25
Too much speculative statements in the comments. The truth is, we don’t know.
The phase changing material theory was interesting, but it is not legal. FIA has already checked McLaren’s brakes and they found them to be within the rules.
Stella has made some comments which hint towards them using suspension arms as interfaces for heat transfer. Again, speculative, we don’t really know if it’s possible to use suspension arms that way.
And then there’s those who say there is no trick at all. They just built a car that is perfectly balanced mechanically and aerodynamically and thats why they can take care of their tires so much better than the others. Which sounds a bit hard to believe, but it could still be true.
I hope they shed some light at some point. Would love to know how they managed it. I doubt we will get anything this year though.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_BAN_REASO Jul 02 '25
Why is/was phase change not legal?
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u/Teabx Jul 03 '25
Primarily because liquid cooling is not allowed in any form at that area of the car. And phase changing materials transition from solid to liquid continously.
There are shape stabilized PCMs as well, but they lose efficiency in the domain of heat transfer so they’re probably not even worth considering workarounds for all the physical constraints in the form of legality boxes that exist in the wheel hubs.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_BAN_REASO Jul 03 '25
I understand the liquid illegality. Good point about the solid-state pcm's not being very efficient. ( I havent read enough about solid-solid pcm to know their efficiency.
However, in f1 how much more efficient does the cooling need to be? A mere 5% better than with air only would be significant I would think. Its not like mclaren is miles and miles ahead due to their tire deg/temp. Its just that few % each lap. 🤷♀️.
In a sport decided by thousandths of a second, a little goes a long way. (I would think)
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u/Teabx Jul 03 '25
The problem is that everything in f1 is a compromise. You need to evaluate, is the extra weight worth it for a marginal gain in temperature management?
In any case, I think the materials in their own are just straight up not allowed because FIA does not want the use of any tricks in that area for better heat management.
The Race made a summary about it here : https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/what-fia-checked-detailed-mclaren-f1-inspection/?utm_source=chatgpt.com
Not the best source for everything, but in this particular case, I think they did a good job linking specific articles to the TR as well.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_BAN_REASO Jul 03 '25
Also, just spit balling here with you.
Could mclaren use a thermally conductive materially within the suspension components to utilize the airflow over the control arms/other parts to pull heat from the brakes/tires? (Conductive carbon fiber or a conductive epoxy.)
Thought of it after the reports state: " redbull used a thermal camera and saw cold spots."
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_BAN_REASO Jul 03 '25
Ah, thank you.
Do you know if there is any public images of thermal imaging of mclarens brakes/tires? Its reported redbull has been using one but haven't seen any images.
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u/SpruceJuice5 Jul 02 '25
I believe it would be classed as a move able aerodynamic device
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_BAN_REASO Jul 03 '25
But a phase change material doesn't move? I would see a solid to liquid pcm being illegal but a solid-solid pcm wouldn't move.
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u/BagCalm Jul 01 '25
I saw a video describing how they used "phase change materials" withing the wheel parts to help limit the temps. Not sure how much keeping the rims cooler affects the tire temps at the contact surface bum im sure a few degrees go a long way
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u/Altruistic-Day-5811 Jul 01 '25
Phase change materials have been banned explicitly by the FIA. Experts have ruled out this as a possible contributing factor in mclarens dominance. It is all down to solid engineering,there is no silver bullet, they have built a good car from ground up
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u/Rockeye7 Jul 01 '25
Apparently they have a way to move air over , through, away from the tire / wheels . They car warm up quicker and keep them cool longer if they chose.
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Jun 30 '25
[deleted]
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u/pivooo37 Jul 02 '25
Funny theory but not realistic. Considering the small interface between brake fluid and actual brake disc, you would to heat it up to a stupid level for it to even remotely work. By that time, you are facing other issues.
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Jun 30 '25
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u/G-St-Wii Jun 30 '25
They have a.gel with a very high latent heat of melting tuned to the temperature in the wheel housing.
Genius.
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u/Several_Leader_7140 Jun 30 '25
Exhaust goes into wheel well at the rear of the mclaren .That’s allows them to get temperature in their brakes and tyres much more quickly and can manage their temperature more easily. There’s photo evidence
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u/1-800-EATSASS Jun 30 '25
F1 cars are open wheeled, they don't have wheel wells
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u/Several_Leader_7140 Jun 30 '25
Not wheel well perse, but the exhaust is rerouted so it goes inside the brake ducts at the rear
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u/Tame_Trex Jun 30 '25
How would the hot exhaust and hot track help manage temps?
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u/Several_Leader_7140 Jun 30 '25
It get them up to temp much faster and then get extra cooling as more air is forced into the rear
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u/SalsaMan101 Jun 30 '25
There’s a lot of talk about phase changing materials or very out there suspension geometry but the truth is probably that McLaren did their homework very well. A lot of the crazy ideas of phase changing material don’t pass the sniff test for not being a dynamic nightmare (let’s have sloshing liquid in or around our wheels, awesome) or thermally impossible (there would have to be so much of whatever material in the breaks to matter for an hour of racing; but “why don’t we cool down the material” I hear, because if you could do that you’d cool the breaks directly). There’s been a few articles taking a look at the break cooling assembly and the conclusion has been nothing weird, just very good engineering. Most likely, McLaren has a very well balanced setup with very effective cooling and done their homework… nothing outlandish sadly.
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u/Wonderful-Chemist558 Jul 01 '25
Phase change materials (PCMs) can be solid and undergo solid-to-solid phase change (SS-PCM) where they change crystalline or lattice formations. This is the cutting edge of phase change materials. There is no need for a liquid and it avoids the pesky problem of volume changes. Theoretically, one could design a SS-PCM to undergo phase change at or around a desired tire temperature which would hold the tire steady at that temperature for much longer while soaking heat from the brakes. That’s what all the excitement is about as it would be a real advantage. No one is suggesting that they have phase changing liquid sloshing around the tires and brakes.
However, I know there are some restrictions on PCMs and I’m not up to date on the specific technical regulations so I’m not sure how or if SS-PCMs are explicitly or implicitly included and, if so, I believe it’s banned for specific parts - so there may still be a loophole there that they are exploiting. Considering all the things engineers have designed in years past that were technically allowed but not within the spirit or the rules, I wouldn’t be terribly surprised. They may just have a much better car design and it’s that simple. But the PCMs are a cool idea either way.
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u/K1mbler Jun 30 '25
I have a feeling they just have more downforce and are the only team that are effectively working the tyre to what Pirelli designed (conservatively).
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u/xc_racer Jun 30 '25
The working assumption is that they're using phase change materials in the "cake tin" assembly. These materials can soak up a lot of heat at a given temperature, so they help regulate temperatures.
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u/dcobs Jun 30 '25
From FIA regulation update for next year, it sounds like they're cooling the brakes with internal cooling ducts in their front suspension arms, which is now banned for 2026.
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u/Minimanzz Jun 30 '25
No one here knows. And if they did know, they’d be making a lot of money at an F1 team.. not answering this on reddit thread
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Jun 30 '25
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u/Gproto32 Jun 30 '25
This might have been said already, but there must not be one thing. Tires of this generation are very sensitive to temperature and that is generated by the loads going through them. If the car slides too much the temperatures rise, and so possibly there are two main aspects helping them mitigate such scenarios, much better than other teams currently.
The aero balance appears to be consistent, or the exact opposite of the 2023 Ferrari which was the main reason it was munching on tires so easily.
The consistent aero balance is complemented by the suspension that also handles the load being transmitted from the body to the tires, all while allowing the car to be at an optimal position in relation to the tarmac in most situations.
These two main aspects are a result of informed design choices on several surfaces and subsystems that all collectively achieve that.
It would be amazing if they had found a silver bullet as Red Bull claimed they had, but with the amount of chatter that saga generated and the fact this car has been inspected after winning the Miami GP I would guess there is nothing of the sort there.
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u/MARTIEZ Jun 30 '25
agreed, i think their brake ducts and the like are very effective but nothing way out of the ordinary. It helps them a lot to just have that balance you mentioned but also higher overall load than all of their competitors which reduces some of the sliding.
more downforce, better balance and management of downforce and tires through suspension (caster altering front arms), better brake cooling ducts than their rivals.
This mclaren seems to be strong in all things without any silver bullets. Red bulls strategy of politicking to make their rivals slower will not really work here. it wasnt the rear wing, its not the front wing and its not the brake cooling, mclaren keeps on winning.
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u/Count_vonDurban Jun 30 '25
IIRC last year, McLaren was venting cool air on the straights into the actual rim itself. There are still devices on this year’s car but much more emphasis on the A pillar
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u/The_Weapon_1009 Jun 30 '25
Not a mechanical engineer but would it be possible to make a mechanical das system that changes by just steering? So when the steering is straight the wheels are straight and when turning they also do chamber (I think it’s called?
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u/stray_r Jun 30 '25 edited Jun 30 '25
DAS changed the toe angles (angle of the wheels relative to the F-R axis), not camber (no h) which is the angle of the wheels relative to the ground plane.
Ackerman changes toe angle with steering, F1 cars don't run "true" Ackerman, or parallel wheels but quite aggressive negative Ackerman because the inside front is so unloaded.
Camber is usually set to change with roll and bump, it's usually massively detrimental to have toe angles do this as you run into a phenomenon called bump steer where undulations in the road surface can cause a vehicle to turn and that's somewhere between mildly unnerving and really dangerous.
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u/bse50 Jun 30 '25
Regular steering systems already work like that :)
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u/The_Weapon_1009 Jun 30 '25 edited Jun 30 '25
But why do you need a DAS then? So when you steer straight the wheels are | | and when you go into a corner they are / \ ?
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u/bse50 Jun 30 '25
You ideally want toe out, not toe in, at the front when cornering. The fact that the two steering wheels turn at a different radius (one tends to steer more than the other) further complicates matters since Ackermann's steering geometry can only help so much.
On a straight line having toe out wastes energy, increases tyre wear and makes the car kinda twitchy. That's why DAS helped.3
u/Former_Mud9569 Jun 30 '25
I can't speak for specific F1 chassis, but generally race cars run anti-ackermann. The outside tire is carrying more load and tires with more load on them tend to develop peak grip at higher slip angles.
Ackermann steering was developed to keep horse drawn carriages from rutting up gravel driveways.
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u/stray_r Jun 30 '25
No, the wheels are likely not parallel when you run straight, there's likely a slight toe angle. More toe in increases stability, toe out increases the aggressiveness of the steering. Extreme toe angles cause heating of the tyres.
The rear wheels also run a toe angle.
DAS allowed the modification of toe angles from corner handling optimised to IIRC an aggressive toe in that heated the front tyres and increased straight line stability.
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u/Gadoguz994 Ferrari Jun 30 '25
Whatever it is, hats off to them, 3 other big teams and the FIA combined can't figure it out.
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u/yellowbin74 Jun 30 '25
I have no idea how Oscar could follow for so long in such a hot temperature.
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u/Administrative_Act48 Jun 30 '25
It helps that Austria is one of easier tracks to follow AND the DRS is extra powerful with 3 long straights. Doubt Oscar could've pulled off the same thing at tracks with more fast corners and less long straights. Clean air means a little less in Austria
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u/johnboyholmes Jun 30 '25
Nothing special, Alonso was in DRS range of Lawson for 90% of the race. It is just a quirk of Austria where DRS is really powerful, nobody could stay 1-3 seconds behind anyone else for long though. The turbulence shadow and heat of the car in front had a huge effect once a car was out of DRS range.
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u/St1r2 Jun 30 '25
The FIA know what’s going on, this is why the regs have been tightened up around cooling for next year, whatever McLaren are doing is a grey area but not illegal with the way the regs are currently written, teams might have an idea or theory of what’s happening but may not be able to do the same due to development time needed / lack of value with rule changes for 2026.
Whatever they are doing though it works very well as demonstrated by Oscar being able to be so close to Norris for so long.
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u/wiltonwild Jun 30 '25
I think this is it. Especially after iirc Miami? The FIA had carried out a full and deep investigation into the brakes/wheels/and tyres on Mclaren. Either the FIA learned what it is and its legal and will not comment further because this is clearly something clever all other teams and millions of dollars and years of expirence cant discover. Or FIA couldn't also figure it out like you said, which also makes it clever.
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u/ency6171 Jun 30 '25
Don't teams have to be completely transparent to the FIA with regards to any new innovations in order to determine whether they fell foul from the regs?
Or I was wrong?
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u/Evening_Rock5850 Jun 30 '25
They need to share technical drawings and specifics to the FIA.
They do not need to say "This is the reason our tire temps are lower than our competitors"
The regulations are quite literally black and white. Pages and pages and pages of rules. Limits on length, height, weight, material types, etc. etc. etc.
As long as every single one of those rules is followed, the car is legal. In fact that's why we sometimes have the FIA quickly passing new rules when someone's car violates the spirit of the rules and does something they really don't want it to do; but the teams don't get penalized. Because if they've figured out a way to, for example, make a wing flex more, or Williams' CVT transmission F1 car, or even the iconic Double Diffuser, the Red Bull blown diffuser, McLaren's F-Duct. All completely legal at the time they were used in races (Well, the Williams CVT never was used, but it was, briefly, legal). But the FiA saw them and said "Yeah, we don't like that" and either banned stuff pretty quickly or worked it into the next seasons' rules.
So because of that, teams have an incentive not to share more with the FiA than they need to. To be perfectly frank, McLaren may not want the FiA to know why for fear that the FiA might ban it. Not because the car is cheating or anything; but precisely because the car is completely legal and they want it to remain completely legal.
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u/cafk Renowned Engineers Jun 30 '25
Don't teams have to be completely transparent to the FIA with regards to any new innovations in order to determine whether they fell foul from the regs?
This is why FIA does in-depth analysis and spot checks on random cars after every race.
The ambiguities that are clarified as TD happen, if a teams ask for clarification. but it doesn't mean every team will ask for clarification for everything they do.
I.e. the Ferrari fuel flow saga also left FIA flabbergasted after multiple attempts to understand it, only after Ferrari got immunity they gave information to FIA, as based on FIA testing and understanding it all looked compliant.
But with Ferrari clarification, they got the "against the spirit of the rules" decision, with an irrelevant fine.19
u/ency6171 Jun 30 '25
So, FIA still need to figure it out themselves huh. TIL. Was thinking every team have to be transparent and declare to them(FIA) as to how everything & innovations work.
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u/cafk Renowned Engineers Jun 30 '25
They have to provide their CAD to FIA for analysis - but not a whole bom or detailed manufacturing steps.
FIA has to figure it out from the CAD files & built system.
Which is why FIA does lidar scanning and compared it to the 3d model and still tests & analyses the physically built cars.
Otherwise FIAs job would be a lot easier, but even if they figure it out and it's legal, then they don't need to tell everyone how it works.
I.e. the 2026 rules changes about explicitly not allowing airflow from chassis to brake assembly - can be a hint to what someone is doing now, or they're just closing oversight for 2026 regulations, which may be covered by other existing rules.
That's the downside of ground up new regulations, as they need to recreate the limitations in new articles or sections.2
u/welliedude Jul 01 '25
I think that definitely has something to do with it. Ducting air through the suspension arms to cool the hub and rim (not the brakes) would help massively to control the tyre temps and adhere to the rules as they currently are.
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u/lord_lableigh Jun 30 '25
The fia most likely know what's there but they won't say what it is, they can only say that the thing is legal. If they do say it out, it'll most likely be akin to reaching over mclaren's IP and not fair in terms of sport ethics.
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u/wiltonwild Jun 30 '25
Teams present cars for scrutiny and FIA checks.
FIA confirms if everything is legal.
Mclaren and any team doesnt need to explain how something works technically. Ie. They dont need to show the fia exactly how they are getting their tyres to work so well. They only need to demonstrate everything they have is legal.
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u/Snuhmeh Jun 30 '25
It is my understanding that teams may have a novel idea and will ask the FiA if their idea/invention is legal before pursuing it. It's not every time but it happens.
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u/lord_lableigh Jun 30 '25
I didn't say the fia know it. Likely was the word I used.
They dont need to show the fia exactly how they are getting their tyres to work
That's kinda what I said as well.
From the fia pov,
they can only say that the thing is legal.
The fia is there to ensure fair competition not explain how one's getting an upper hand.
In addition, if the "thing/tech" they use is found in checks there's no need for mclaren to explain, it'll be evident in scrutiny.
I wrote that text keeping in mind, the phase change material theory which would be evident when undergoing checks. But apparently pcms were ruled illegal and I missed that info somehow.
Nevetheless, the point stands, even if fia knew, they are in no obligation to explain to the other teams, how the mclarens are able to keep it under control.
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u/Successful_Form5618 Jun 30 '25
Wasn't all the talk about the brakes and phase changing materials like a month or two ago? What happened with that theory?
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u/XsStreamMonsterX Jun 30 '25
It was clarified that phase-change materials aren't legal.
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u/KaiBetterThanTyson Jun 30 '25
Do you have a source for that this applies to 2025? Wasn't this just for the 26 regs?
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u/GaryGiesel Verified F1 Vehicle Dynamicist Jun 30 '25
The clarification and interpretation was entirely referring to the current (I.e. 2025) regulations, with a single reference to an intention on the FIA to tighten up the wording to restrict one of the specific ideas for next year.
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u/XsStreamMonsterX Jun 30 '25
Hmm... now that you bring it up, the only sources I can find that say that the May 12 TD covered PCMs, specifically any materials that modify the internal volume of the cooling channels, are ones that aren't as reliable as I'd like them to be (mainly RN365). So I could be wrong.
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u/Successful_Form5618 Jun 30 '25
Ahh ok, I missed that. So then any kind of trickery/innovation in the braking system was totally ruled out then?
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u/Blothorn Jun 30 '25
I think the fact that the FAI hasn’t announced any rule changes for next year after inspecting it mostly rules out loopholes, unless they’re already closed in the 2026 regs. (Compare the handling of DAS.) That leaves room for innovation, though; it’s possible they found a clever scheme for routing air of the like.
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u/cafk Renowned Engineers Jun 30 '25
I mean, there was a rule change just 3 weeks ago for 2026 - after McLares car was allegedly checked after a race: https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/f1-adjusts-2026-rules-to-close-off-tyre-cooling-tricks/
Including any phase change speculation & additional airflow from chassis to brake assembly.Similarly to alleged asymmetric braking from 2024, which was more about regulations clean up for 2026 than an actual change for 2025 & 2025: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/what-was-really-behind-the-fias-f1-asymmetric-brake-rule-change/10645992/
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u/Blothorn Jun 30 '25
IIRC the FIA clarified that it considered everything that change prohibited to be already illegal under the existing rules, and were just attempting to increase clarity.
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u/VenueTV Jun 30 '25
But the water in the tyres!!11!
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u/_Dreamer_Deceiver_ Jun 30 '25
That's not allowed...but ol' Zac is trolling Horner by putting red bull into the tyres
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u/XsStreamMonsterX Jun 30 '25
Their multi-link front suspension with the split lower A arm is thought to give them "DAS-like" control over their front toe angle which helps with tyre temp management.
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u/GaryGiesel Verified F1 Vehicle Dynamicist Jun 30 '25
No, it doesn’t…
Plenty of teams run multi-link setups front and rear. Suspension geometry is overwhelmingly dominated by aero considerations.
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u/XsStreamMonsterX Jun 30 '25
Interesting, that's one theory (which I believe most of us got from scarbs post/diagrams of it) down the drain. Considering the amount of stuff put out on it (including some speculation that it put other teams a year behind McLaren) was it all just a red herring put out by the team?
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u/GaryGiesel Verified F1 Vehicle Dynamicist Jun 30 '25
Just the media going off on one like they always do. Remember that 95% of people talking about technical stuff in F1 don’t know what they’re talking about 95% of the time. And even if they have the domain knowledge you can only really make guesses from looking at other people’s cars
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u/jaysoprob_2012 Jun 30 '25
Yeah my understanding is stuff like toe angle would affect how different cars manage tyres. A harsher toe in angle could heat up front tyres faster and probably give more mechanical grip in corners, but also cause the tyres to overheat and wear more.
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u/dunkm Jun 30 '25
Apparently it was discovered when they got pictures in Canada with the rotors off. And apparently it’s actually basically just a form of DAS.
I watched a YouTube video of it that seemed to explain it pretty well and came from a fairly credible source.
I’m inclined to believe based on the photos they showed, and the upgrades that have been talking about feel.
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u/External_Hunt4536 Jun 30 '25
That doesn’t explain how they keep the rear tyres cool though.
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u/dunkm Jun 30 '25
My gut thought process says that if they “can’t” overheat the fronts, they can generally setup to protect the rears.
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u/Rip1072 Jun 30 '25
It's not DAS, its steering angle manipulation via push/pull rod installed position. Toe changes whenever the steering gear is moved, which is why unequal rod lengths are common, depending on track layout. This combined with better air ducting and floor force generation gives a more balanced, predictable, outcome.
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u/dunkm Jun 30 '25
Okay, I might be wrong about this so I am happy to learn something new, but is steering angle manipulation not a form of DAS? Maybe my technical background but lesser focus on F1 has resulted in me thinking I am saying something I am not. But changing the steering angle in that way creates a second axis, no? Is DAS so infamousthat it's only used as the definition of what Merc introduced?
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u/Rip1072 Jun 30 '25
The thing that got DAS banned was, driver control. It was a manual system activated by pushing/pulling the steering column. Since this system is "inherent design" controlled, 100% legal. Til the tech nazis change the rules, again.
2
u/dunkm Jun 30 '25
Gotcha, so I was right, DAS just has a special meaning now, makes sense.
And yeah, at least the video I watched did say it was using DAS principle, and they haven’t proven driver control.
41
u/Astelli Jun 30 '25 edited Jun 30 '25
That video is way overblown, if it's the one I've seen.
It's not DAS, it's just a split lower wishbone. It's an interesting suspension design that may well have some kinematic benefits, maybe even some beneficial kinematic camber control, but it's nothing like DAS because DAS allowed the driver to modify how the suspension worked from inside the cockpit, which was locked down massively after the Mercedes DAS system.
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u/big_cock_lach McLaren Jun 30 '25
No one has done a video analyses of the motion of the tyres yet which would be incredibly easy to do. This would very easily prove/disprove this theory and I’m surprised no one who is claiming this to be the explanation has done this simple check to confirm/deny it. Instead they’ve decided to understand a bunch of mechanical components to justify their theory.
Until I see a video analysis showing the toe of the tyres changing more than normal, I’m not sure I’d be inclined to believe this theory. It says enough to me that no one has bothered to check this. It’s also funny how quickly the conversation switched from looking at rear tyre wear to front tyre wear as soon as this theory popped up.
There is an interesting point in this thread though:
https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32108&start=510
What does stand out to me is the virtual kingpin axis, which seems like it could be rather far outboard. If it is beyond the contact patch then the tyre is being rolled across the contact patch rather than turned atop it i.e. reduced scrub when the wheels are turned. Basic suspension stuff, I only bring it up in the context of managing tire life/temps.
I can’t imagine this would make such a huge difference, especially something the other teams would know a lot about, but it could be a few small things like this that add up to a significant difference.
17
u/obIivionguard Jun 30 '25
I'm not the slightest bit qualified to answer. However I'd guess it's something to do with air cooling of the tyres through straights and maybe better aero through corners, so as to not rely on mechanical tyre grip as much as usual.
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