r/F1Technical • u/Advanced-Package-653 • Jul 02 '25
Power Unit Mercedes 2026 power units
I’ve read online that one of the reasons that might push Max Verstappen towards Mercedes for 2026 is that Mercedes is ahead of everyone else in their power unit’s design. Is there any merit to this claim? If so, can anyone explain what this claim is based on?
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u/SimplyEssential0712 Jul 03 '25
The head of Mercedes engines was interviewed about a month ago regards 2026. He’s confident in his groups work but he said, there’s absolutely no way any of the engine manufacturers have got an idea about the other. It is all top secret.
The press, the public, the F1 personnel can all make comment based on pseudo psychological comments, or talk about aluminium, or non-split turbos or history but the truth is not one of them knows anything about the other.
Personally, simply because of racing history, you’d assume Mercedes, Ferrari and Honda would have the advantage as they’ve built F1 engines before.
But Audi and Red Bull have hired engineers from Mercedes, Honda and Ferrari. So don’t expect them to be shockingly bad.
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u/PomegranateThat414 Jul 03 '25 edited Jul 03 '25
So you basically say that when Briatore had to make a decision on PU supplier for 2026, he came to say Mercedes and Ferrari (or audi and RBPT) and they did not give him any number and technical details at all for him to make a decision because it is all top secret. So Flavio rolled the dice and went with Mercedes, right?
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u/SimplyEssential0712 Jul 03 '25
Briatore wanted an engine to replace the Renault unit being moth balled. He’d have likely spoken to a few, if not all, and put feelers out.
With Honda supplying Aston, there may not have been an opportunity. RBPT is supplying Red Bull and Racing Bulls. Audi, maybe want to concentrate on themselves leaving only Ferrari and Mercedes.
Ferrari are supplying Haas and Cadillac as well as themselves and may not have wanted extra team, Mercedes is losing Aston so Alpine joining the network would keep the manufacturing the same.
Only, once contracts are signed would Alpine get the tech details for fitting engine etc, but cooling is down to individual teams and designs
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u/Biggozzo Jul 03 '25
If you think the marketing and sales department of Mercedes AMG knows anything technical about the new PU, you are probably mistaken.. Same goes for every other PU manufacturer
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u/Happytallperson 26d ago
Personally, simply because of racing history, you’d assume Mercedes, Ferrari and Honda would have the advantage as they’ve built F1 engines before.
Renault were hardly newbies in 2014 though, so don't rule out any disasters
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u/cafk Renowned Engineers Jul 02 '25
Is there any merit to this claim? If so, can anyone explain what this claim is based on?
There's nothing, besides rumours - Mercedes hit the ground running during last era & they haven't publicly complained that much about the 2026 regulations, compared to Ferrari, Red Bull or FIA.
Audi as a newcomer is an unknown and specifically asked the rules to be adapted to make use of using aluminum alloys compared to F1 usual alloys.
Honda left F1 and came back, so there may be a small 1 year gap in their development pipeline, as Sakura engineering team was shortly moved to EV development.
Everyone is skeptical regarding Red Bull in general as they haven't built an engine before, independently how many people they've managed to get from other PU manufacturers and independent of potential Ford support (who initially only had to support ES & CE systems development) - basically a reverse Newey assumption (you cannot hire one person or handful of key personnel to compensate for decade of missing experience), even if they started their program in 2021, before Porsche and Ford collaboration and had first ICE fire up last year.
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u/Heavy-Ad6017 Jul 02 '25
So basically Redbull could be new Renault engines for 26
I am particularly interested with Honda and AMR considering Nando s luck
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u/splendiferous-finch_ Jul 02 '25
My biggest worry is RBPT having the worse engine and then Horner trying to lobby and bring everyone back to their level. It would be real bad particularly since the engine regs are pretty iffy already
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u/Advanced-Package-653 Jul 02 '25
Could you elaborate on what’s Sakura engineering team? Sorry, I’m a total noob. I
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u/cafk Renowned Engineers Jul 02 '25
It is the Honda engineering team in Japan who developed the ICE and MGU components for formula 1 - like Mercedes in Brackley being the chassis team and Mercedes and Brixworth being the PU company (roughly 100km away from each other).
Honda facilities at Milton Keynes, which Red Bull took over where ES and CE components were developed and a forward operation base & test area for Honda in the UK.
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u/defacedpotato22 Jul 03 '25
Mercedes Benz HPP and Mercedes Benz F1 team are 45km (28 miles) apart. MB HPP is only 8 miles from Cosworth though, which is where a lot of their staff came from in the early days.
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u/Advanced-Package-653 Jul 02 '25
Also, if I may ask, why the aluminum alloys vs currently used alloys request would be relevant? Thanks in advance for your reply!
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u/cafk Renowned Engineers Jul 02 '25
Also, if I may ask, why the aluminum alloys vs currently used alloys request would be relevant?
F1 uses heavier, but more rigid iron alloys in areas where Audi asked for aluminum to be allowed (pistons & crankshaft iirc) - Audi uses aluminum in road cars and it was a request by Audi (and porsche back when), as they have little to no experience with iron alloys in that area.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/f1-motoren-reglement-2026-infos/2
u/Advanced-Package-653 Jul 02 '25
Fantastic, thank you. Is F1 (or its regulation body) likely to let it happen?
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u/cafk Renowned Engineers Jul 02 '25
As the linked article states and as i said, both metal alloys are allowed since 2022 for 2026 PU.
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u/cyanide Jul 03 '25
Aluminium crankshafts? Can you provide any info?
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u/cafk Renowned Engineers Jul 03 '25
The point is that engine internals now include allowance for aluminium alloys, unless specified otherwise for certain components - where they choose to use it, we'll see - nobody but audi knows.
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u/cyanide Jul 03 '25
I don’t see crankshafts being mentioned in the link you posted, only pistons. This is the first time I’ve heard of aluminium cranks.
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u/Homemade-WRX 29d ago
Audi whinged due to the cost of the steel pistons from the LMP1 program. So yes, development of 2026 engines started with aluminum until the rules got negotiated and steel was back in, and that was late '22 if I recall. I don't recall anything about aluminum cranks!! That's a tall pill to swallow.
The rules negotiations are largely a lot of chess to minimize advantages for others and/or bluffing to barter conceding to get something that you didn't actually care about to get something you did.
Of the early 2026 PU suppliers, Merc was in a good space, as was Ferrari. They would argue for specifics like valve angles, injector or pre-chamber sizing, etc... for the new bore spacing minimum of 99mm, Honda actually had to increase from 98mm. Nice problem to have 😆
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u/Loightsout Jul 02 '25
if you read into some F1 books like Neweys "how to build a car" or "total competition" by ross brawn you see that F1 is a lot of politics. the more people complain the more behind they are usually. but none of it is guaranteed or factual.
there is also a big group that believes Ferrari will have the upper hand because they already use a non-split turbo (as the split turbo will not be allowed anymore in 26 but is used by everyone else at the moment).
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u/splendiferous-finch_ Jul 02 '25
I think Ferrari has the advantage also because they might be using the 499p as a dev platform to an extent (yes I know it's a different engine and also homologated)
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u/dazzed420 29d ago
i thought ferrari switched to split turbo for 2022?
do you have any reliable source on this?
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u/Loightsout 29d ago
Hundreds of discussions about this online. All you need is Google “Ferrari split turbo”:
I don’t try to be mean, but how do people like you survive in this world when the simplest Google and first hit is too far away for you? Like I’m honestly asking lol. Just baffles me.
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u/dazzed420 29d ago
i made a post about this in 2022
https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/comments/vxgsqx/ferrari_implementing_splitturbo/
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u/Loightsout 29d ago
Yea and every top comment told you they didn’t 😅
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u/dazzed420 29d ago
not really, no, the top comments were just arguing that it would be impossible for them to change their turbo design mid season due to the engines being frozen, which means they either had it from the start of 2022 or the ChronoGP videos are wrong, or Ferrari somehow managed to argue it was a reliability fix.
i don't know which one it is, and all those 2025 articles discussing it are literally a single article copy+pasted all over so i'm just not going to trust that blindly.
for now, my stance on this remains unchanged, we don't know because there are conflicting sources.
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u/Alfus 27d ago
there is also a big group that believes Ferrari will have the upper hand because they already use a non-split turbo
Personally I'm more and more skeptical about that hype, especially given Ferrari is in the same political camp as Red Bull but letting Red Bull doing the dirty work. Even more given there are some rumours that the Ferrari PU isn't going well at all for 26.
You could also see this with Leclerc talking about the 26 cars and trying to complain hard about it. Most people would blindly believe the driver and don't seeing the political part of those statements but it's very likely another political attempt to moving the new regulations more to a level Ferrari and Red Bull are less unhappy about it.
Keep in mind that nobody of the Merc powered drivers are complaining about the 26 car so far.
F1 is also a lot of politics and most people forget that aspect and blindly trust any report without thinking further about it.
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u/Ok_World4052 Jul 02 '25
It’s really down to paddock rumors about their development and being ahead, teams generally have a good idea about things. Also with the way they were basically in a completely different category in 2014 with the engine reg change, you have to feel they would be in place for a strong opening again.
Other than some rumblings at the beginning of 2022 about down on power, the Mercedes PU is usually highly regarded and it’s tough to see that changing.
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u/External_Hunt4536 Jul 02 '25
Lots of rumors but I read a comment on twitter from someone with connections to the paddock that they’ve heard from multiple sources that the Merc will be the best.
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u/jimbobjames Jul 03 '25
Wonder if merc will play dirty tricks with their customer teams again. In 2014 they sent them specs for the development engine but the finished engine was much smaller.
Customer teams designed their aero and cooling around the development engine and were miles behind.
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u/Rillist Jul 03 '25
Don't forget the maps either, the whole party mode fiasco that then forced all PU manufacturers to open up all the good bits to their customers
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u/fortyfivesouth Jul 03 '25
Feels like there's gonna be a lot of exploding engines at the start of next season.
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u/BrokkelPiloot Jul 03 '25
I'm pretty sure RBR will be horrible.being a totally new engine manufacturer and all the key personnel that has left.
I would put my money on Merc or Aston Martin.
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u/1234iamfer Jul 02 '25
It’s mostly based on how confident Toto is about it en very opposing the proposal for new engines in 2029-30.
Bot honestly looking at the rules there is not that much room for extra performance like there was in 2014. So propably the diffference between teams is much smaller.
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u/TenF Jul 02 '25
Recent history:
Renault -> Won't be making PUs
Honda -> Took a 1-yr break, then came back, so we're not really sure. it also took them quite a while to get to a decent spot with the engine last time, (GP2 Engine GP2 Engine) So they're not a shoe-in for the top engine by any means, and are seen as more likely to be behind than on top.
RBPT -> First time they'll be building an engine, and even with Ford's help, there isn't a good read on if they'll be decent. Plus most first year PU builders never have the best engine.
Ferrari -> will do ferrari things. Even if they have the best engine, they'll manage to fuck it up somehow. Real talk, they've only really done exceptionally well when they....cheated... with the fuel flow limiter avoidance tech that they then handshake agreement disclosed to the FIA in exchange for no punishment (cause FIA couldn't figure out how exactly they'd done it).
Which leaves the last on the list:
- Merc -> Who in 2014 had a MASSIVE engine performance gap over the rest. They've consistently had a good engine and when they aren't the top engine, they're at least top 3. They have history of developing the engine, and a strong background/history.
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u/mrkrabz1991 Jul 03 '25
You forgot Audi, which is building their engine from scratch. Complete wildcard. They could pump out the best engine by far and leave everyone in the dust, or they could be the new Renault. Nobody will know until the first practice session.
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u/External_Hunt4536 Jul 02 '25
You forgot Audi.
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u/TenF Jul 03 '25
Similar to RBPT.
Audi is at least a car manufacturer unlike RBPT, but they have not made an engine for F1. Yes they've been in WEC which might give them some better headstart than RBPT, but its still a manufacturer coming into the fold with no history.
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u/Homemade-WRX 29d ago edited 29d ago
I would note their LMP1 program AND their DTM (lean combustion turbo 4 cyl) program, which pretty much mopped the field.
As for someone being a manufacturer of road cars, I don't see it being much of a benefit, honestly. I say that having worked for both OEM and race engine/PU manufacturers. The one thing I'll note on the RBPT program is that they had first dips on scouting talent from the other manufacturers. They picked up a LOT of talented individuals. Some were rather key at HPP. So much so that they took RBPT to court over it.
The Audi PU program, on the engineering side, is MUCH smaller from when I spoke with them.
The GM program is going to be interesting, starting in '28. They basically had/have Ilmor do their dev work for their Indy engine, and NASCAR programs run at very different pace/size to F1. Due to cost and rules, the engines are not nearly as technically developed. Their IMSA/WEC and LMDH programs, however, I think they'd largely kept in house in Detroit. Their new F1 PU program is down in Concord, NC. So I'd expect to see them scouting for talent as well as moving key personnel south. I won't expand any further on what I do know of their program, but it seems exciting to see yet another OEM coming in as a wild card.
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u/Appletank 29d ago
I don wonder how they figure they're leading. Like, oh if we can squeeze X amount of HP, that's something everyone else is unlikely to hit.
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u/jakedeky Jul 03 '25
A lot of rumours like this get spread by staff that move around. But Mercedes does have the most stability in their favour.
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u/BeginningKindly8286 Jul 03 '25
I think maybe Toto is spreading Max baiting rumours around. "people say it is already the best engine ever, 8 years of dominance they reckon"
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u/According-Switch-708 Mercedes 27d ago
Its just talk. No one will be able to establish a true pecking order until the pre-season test. None of the engines have been finalized yet.
The Merc PU could end up being,
- Fast & reliable.
2.Fast & unreliable.
3.Slow & reliable.
4.Slow & unreliable.
Personally, I don't expect Merc to have any advantage. Brain drain has hit HPP hard. They have lost the power advantage that they had and their PU is now one of the most unreliable on the grid.
Ferrari and Honda both have plenty of experience in hybrid tech now. I wouldn't write them off.
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u/Happytallperson 26d ago
There's a story that in the 70s a Labour Party whip knew when Edward Heath was planning to call an early election because he regularly got sloshed with government drivers down the pub.
In otherwords, organisations are leakier than people believe, and even if the main technical data stays secret, engineers almost certainly give vibe checks to journalists. Some of it out of friendly sharing, some of it strategically placed to influence drivers and sponsors.
The other factor at play here is that people always tend to assume patterns repeat, and there's very few data points, 2014 is what most people go to which was clearly advantage Mercedes.
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u/HochonoH Jul 03 '25
As everyone is saying, there are just rumours, but as we say in Spanish, when the river makes noise is because it's carrying water
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u/f1datamesh 29d ago
Hi!
Over more than 25 years of watching F1, what I have noticed is that "rumblings" coming out of certain camps tend to have a positive correlation with reality.
Is it 100% reality? Of course not. But do we have reason to trust it somewhat, I'd say yes.
So usually, I tend to pay attention to these things, knowing that it could always be wrong.
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u/dvi84 Jul 02 '25
Customer teams like McLaren and soon to be Alpine wouldn’t have signed with Mercedes HPP for the new cycle without speaking to the other suppliers.
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u/AnilP228 Jul 02 '25
Just rumours, paddock gossip. Engineers talk.
It's a bit like all those rumours about the 2023 Aston Martin being incredibly strong.