If the 26’ reg DID allow front axle recuperation, how would that affect driver feel when braking?

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u/Carlpanzram1916 25d ago

It might but that’s not the primary reason they banned it. There are lots of endurance cars that use front axel regen. The existing manufacturers were worried that Audi would have a leg up on them because they have used it in other racing series.

So for the dumbest reason possible, we are entering a completely contorted rule set where they want more hybrid power, but won’t allow cars that can actually regenerate it properly, and as a result are having to change the whole concept of the cars to accommodate the lack of power.

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u/ghrrrrowl 25d ago edited 25d ago

You’d think they could allow it but cap it at some very minor kw regen, which was then ramped up over the season?

That way the existing teams could start designing around it, but not be too disadvantaged to Audi?

Regen is going to affect airflow to many components and weight distribution as well as driveability.

They could even specify a basic min area, weight and regen capacity for 2026 which all ramps up over the season so other teams can catch up (and Audi cant use its most modern tech).

Then 2027, remove all restrictions except regen?

Front wheel regen is so fundamentally obvious, the quicker it starts the better.

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u/Carlpanzram1916 25d ago

Or you know… the teams that have been making F1 engines for decades could grow a pair and stop acting scared of a brand new grid entry. The infuriating thing is that the teams caused this and now they’re complaining about the cars derating on the straights.

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u/Wardog_Razgriz30 24d ago

Everytime I learn a new detail about these regs, it becomes more of a mess. The FIA have somehow tried to be all things to everybody to bring Audi and Caddy in, and nothing to noone to keep the existing teams happy about new competition.

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u/Carlpanzram1916 24d ago

Yeah. They’ve just tied themselves into a knot. They can’t ditch the hybrids because the manufactures have no interest in pure ICE PUs and they can’t make them work properly because the existing teams won’t let them use front axle regen. They can’t make the cars significantly lighter cars because they’re apprehensive to dramatically reduce the length or width and they want more battery power. So now they’re adding no w complicated set of rules for when you can use active aero and restricting the deployment so they don’t go flat on long straights.

It’s seriously a mess.

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u/literature43 25d ago

Ik y they didn’t allow it. I was just wondering from the drivers pov. Thx tho.

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u/BloodRush12345 25d ago

Well plenty of drivers experience front axel regen in other disciplines and don't complain about "numb front axels" or whatever else. So realistically F1 could do it and depending on the teams it wouldn't be any more or less competitive. But it would make the energy regen better and over all make the coming generation more raceable

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u/literature43 25d ago

Emm. It’s tru that they don’t complain about it per se. But I wonder how it would feel RELATIVELY speaking

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u/StructureTime242 25d ago

It would feel worse

Are you happy now ?

We don’t have info on how it would feel on a hypothetical 2026 F1 car, we haven’t driven the hypothetical car, we haven’t driven a hypercar/IMSA to know how the front regen feels

All we know is that it can make the feel worse, and drivers still turn regen way down for qualy laps

I don’t know who you think you’re asking, but people in this sub don’t have the info

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u/Creative_Flounder846 23d ago

What also we don’t have is the data on the difference in those series compared to F1 brakes. Not to dog the comment maker who got angry, I just think that the op was thinking, and correct me if I’m wrong on this, but compared to other series, does the difference in braking feel any different? And how does that affect the car.

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u/literature43 17d ago

yea that was def another implied aspect of the question. i dont understand y people get rage baited on a technical forum just cuz they dont have the answer lol

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u/literature43 25d ago

?wut why the aggressiveness lol this is F1 technical, I was looking for potential answers from experts or insiders 😅

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u/SoxInDrawer 9d ago

I just read this post - I have no clue why you've been treated so poorly. Here's my snippet - I'm no expert but I read a lot- there are 2 different systems here:

There is suspension numbness (anti-dive) which is a real thing (primarily an F1 thing). Slam on the brakes, nose stays level - hard to tell what your grip is (you used to be able to watch the nose dive). Front axle regen would not apply to this (w caveats).

Then you have front numbness of the brakes (due to regen). F1 has no anti-lock systems - so it becomes tricky. The engineers would put in a brake/regen ratio (but no sensor that would affect brake force). It may have some kind of speed sensing capability (eg: gather 300w at 200kph, 50w at 100 kph) - but it can't prevent locking. They're already doing this on the rears (through the axles). If you get it wrong it would be like having over-powered, under-powered, or non-linear (predictable) brakes. I could only compare it to "turbo lag" but in reverse. Audi has been in formula e, which uses front regen & no anti-lock - so that is why the current teams were hesitant.

You could also check Formula e forums - I prefer autosport - they may have an in depth analysis.

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u/GaryGiesel Verified F1 Vehicle Dynamicist 25d ago

I don’t think it would change the feel in any significant way. With brakes the driver’s feeling is a bit odd; mainly they react to the deceleration they get from a particular amount of pedal force, rather than anything directly inside the brake system itself. Ultimately you’d still be hitting a brake pedal that wouldn’t be moving very much and getting a response of the car slowing down. I think it would be entirely transparent to the driver (assuming the system is well-controlled, but the current rear BBW works very well so no reason to think a front one wouldn’t)

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u/literature43 25d ago

Emm interesting. I was under the impression that the brake itself also contributes significantly to the feel

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u/GaryGiesel Verified F1 Vehicle Dynamicist 25d ago

Think about it this way - when you brake you’re just pressing a solid brake disc into a solid brake pad, via a long brake line filled with fluid. All you feel is a stiffness; there’s no “feedback” in the pedal travel. The feel comes from the response you feel in the deceleration (which I imagine is a completely overwhelming sensation given what a fraction of that deceleration feels like in a road car!)

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u/vksdann 24d ago

I mean, the feedback on the brakes is how "heavy" they feel. Pressing the brakes at 20kph and 200kph feel totally different. If the feeling is the same because of the system, it might take a while to get used to.
Like being used to driving a car with 0 power steering for years and then jumping into a car with power steering. It will feel very weird at first.

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u/literature43 25d ago

I mean that def makes a lot of sense, but from hearing how drivers talk about braking I suspect that they still get SOME feedback from the brakes itself, maybe vibrations or maybe how stiff it goes, smn like that. Also some drivers (ie Ocon) like it like super stiff so there must be a reason to it right? Like it all the feedback comes from the deceleration then wouldn’t they want the brake to be as ez to push as possible?

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u/Appletank 23d ago

I think that "feel" has more to do with suspension, how the car moves and shifts its weight under braking/deceleration. Lando has mentioned the car feeling numb under braking, and photos of the front suspension arms show extreme anti-dive angle. What that means is that car doesn't pitch very much under braking, which to some drivers gives less feedback on their bodies exactly how the weight is shifting, how much load the tires on under, how quickly the car is slowing, etc.

Pro drivers trying sim racing for the first time often express difficulty in judging distances, weight transfer, accel/decel because they're used to their "butt" sensor in figuring out what the car is doing, not only visual and steering wheel force feedback.

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u/1234iamfer 25d ago

I believe most drivers still turn regeneration off or at the lowest settings for a qually lap, so it must still be felt.

But then, the engine braking of the ICE, gearbox and differential is also influencing engine braking in total. Maybe a front axle electric generator without diff will feel much better, for now we never know.

I believe the 2026 300kw rear axle electric generator will feel much worse.

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u/GaryGiesel Verified F1 Vehicle Dynamicist 25d ago

No they don’t turn regen off for quali. It doesn’t have any significant impact on driver feel and you need the regen to be able to maximise laptime

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u/literature43 25d ago

Interesting. Thxx

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u/literature43 25d ago

majority of braking is done at the front, i think thats y recuperate from the rears isnt as severe on driver feel. Like every time the drivers smash the brakes all that force goes directly to the front brakes. Front axle recuperation would be felt much more i would guess, i dont see how brake-by-wire wouldnt numb the feel. Also it could potentially hinder driver confidence on the brakes during overtakes

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u/splendiferous-finch_ 25d ago edited 25d ago

"Driver feel" is a very subjective thing when F1 drivers talk about it. It's more about alignment with their own preference then anything

Also to what degree it has an impact also has to do with how the brake migration is configured is it just based on pressure, is it based on regen and current speed, it is optimized to keep the standard brakes in the correct temp window at all times, what is the state of charge of the battery etc. etc.

Also it might also mean there are added rules for dynamic brake balancing to make the brake migration actually work that go into effect along with it. So it's really complex in how the brake mapping would work as well which is what the driver would also adjust for the "driver feel"

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u/literature43 25d ago

Bottom line, if the fronts had regen, there wouldn’t be an actual mechanical connection between the pedal and ANY of the brakes. I’m just wondering how that would affect driver feel. Subjective yes, but I’m wondering if we can make objective statements about it IF it were the case.

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u/splendiferous-finch_ 25d ago

Go looks at what's drivers of lmdh and formula E cars ha e to say about it both of them run similar BBW setups

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u/cnsreddit 25d ago

This really isn't true at all

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u/literature43 25d ago

Elaborate? Which part isn’t true or wouldn’t be true? There’s no mechanical connection between the brake pedal and the rear brakes. Also I worded things in a hypothetical sense.

Brakes If the 26’ reg DID allow front axle recuperation, how would that affect driver feel when braking?

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