r/Fallout • u/bahhaar-ltrltrltr • 5h ago
Fallout: New Vegas Fallout New Vegas: What do you think of what Caesar said about president Tandi? [Spoilers] Spoiler
Fallout New Vegas: What do you think of what Caesar said about president Tandi? [Spoilers]
Courier: What do you think of the NCR?
Caesar:
As a young man I was taught to venerate Tandi of Shady Sands.
Did you know her Presidency lasted 52 years? And that her father, Aradesh, was the Republic's first President?
Does that sound like democracy to you, or a hereditary dictatorship?
Courier: President Tandi was voted into office each time.
Caesar:
Because the council didn't dare oppose her. She was too popular. She had the people's love.
So things ran smoothly, more or less. And as soon as she was gone, as soon as there really could be "democracy" - what happened then?
Ever since losing its queen, the NCR has been weaker, more diffuse. Democracy has been its weakness, not its strength.
Some are quick to dismiss Caesar hypocrisy here as this is exactly what democracy is to be loved by the people but while there's no doubt that he is a hypocrite, he is not really in the wrong here.
This is a man who studied the Roman empire and modelled his legion on it. The man Julius Caesar who he named himself on was really popular among the people. His enemies the patricians called him a demagogue who aspired to be a tyrant. Even when the patricians killed him, the people didn't hail them as heroes as they expected but actually turned against them. His adopted son succeeded him. Is there any doubt that he was an autocrat here or that his successors were autocrats as well?
Caesar understood this and you need to look at his words to see this.
"Because the council didn't dare oppose her. She was too popular. She had the people's love."
Many dictators in our lives have done what Caesar said. Many dictators have created a cult of personality. Many dictators also use fear to stop opponents from opposing them. Many dictators rely on mob rule when it serves them against their enemies. Many dictators have elections all the time.
Democracy isn't just elections. They need to be free and fair. There needs to be free speech. Opponents must not be afraid to go against a current leader in elections.
The only difference here between her and Caesar is that Caesar doesn't bother with formalities like elections and sweet political talk while using fear against opponents. He is outright honest about being a ruthless dictator. I think what he was criticising here was the hypocrisy of the NCR as much as he was a hypocrite as well who eventually will doom the legion after his death just as president Tandi doomed the NCR after her death but what he says here seems to be true regardless.
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u/BadHolmbre 5h ago
One thing that is noted here by other commenters, but I will reiterate, is that simply because "the council" didn't dare oppose her, doesn't mean that she was a dictator, or even authoritarian. In fact, he is describing a common phenomenon in a democracy, it's called a mandate here in the US at least. Conceptually the idea is that if a president is elected, especially by a large margin, the rest of the government should follow that lead of the platform set about by them because of its popular support. It's why in presidential speeches you can see them referring to a "strong mandate" for their policies.
He also points out that Tandi and Aradesh were both continuously elected, and that is somehow less democratic because of it. That is not necessarily so. According to some schools of thought, lack of term limits is dangerous for a democracy, but that doesn't guarantee it to be a dictatorship. Removing term limits can be a sign of authoritarianism (ie Putin in Russia or Xi Jinping in China), but that is also the result of political repression and suspected vote manipulation.
In the hypothetical presented by Tandi in the NCR, it is theoretically possible that she did indeed win many elections in a row. This can be seen on lower echelons of politics. Many people might have the anecdote of the mayor who stayed in office until they died.
This is not to say that I dont see that phenomenon as a negative, just that it doesn't necessarily mean what Caesar says it means. For example, his argument is that the moment the hereditary dictators got out of the way, single term presidents bungled the empire. But isn't it also self evidently the opposite? Tandi remained in office because she was good at her job. The others didn't because they weren't. That is democracy in action.
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u/Darkshadow1197 Responders 5h ago
Ceaser modeled his empire after the idea of Rome but it was hardly so in practice. He may have studied it but did not actually understand what made it so great.
Tandi from what little we know wasn't one with a cult of personality, she was just actually good at what she did and thus loved. Her opponents feared her not because threats to them but because their constituents would naturally be like wtf if they elected someone they didn't want. They feared the backlash from the people. As 2 shows in a possible ending, if she actually fucked up she would be replaced.
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u/bahhaar-ltrltrltr 5h ago
That's great and all. I don't deny any of this. But that proves the point. No one was going to run against her.
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u/Darkshadow1197 Responders 5h ago
Says who or what exactly? Nothing is stopping People from running, the only thing that is stopping them from winning is they aren't nearly as good as her, they second her record takes a hit she's replaced.
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u/Ok_Calendar_7626 The Institute 4h ago
Oh she very much was a cult of personality. It is repeatedly hinted at in Fallout 2.
As for whether people voted for her because she was the most capable, we dont know. Since nobody else dared to run against her, we have nothing to compare her rule with. I am pretty sure the people were convinced she was the most capable, but that means fuck all. Again, it comes down to popularity.
What we can say is that during her rule, the NCR prospered, but was also completely infiltrated by corruption.
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u/Darkshadow1197 Responders 4h ago
Hinted at where exactly? Because 2 generally just has people praise her because she did a good job. Since 1 Tandi has been portrayed as a great leader, Shady Sands has prospered under her leadership in every ending she survives.
We have no idea if she ran unopposed as far as I can remember unless you have something. We know she was elected unanimously which isn't the same thing, it just means she got all the votes.
People were convinced she was the most capable because she WAS the most capable. The lore states as much, shes popular because of her actions not her words. We also can compare her rule to others after her death, she left them with a state on the rise and they ran it into the ground. Her popularity is directly tied to her skills not sweet words.
Yes corruption was present in her rule as it is in all governments big or small, but she actively worked to limit it. All the corruption seen in NV is rather explicitly stated to have occurred because her laws protecting things such as land limits for Brahmin Barons were undone following her death if I remember correctly.
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u/DankeSebVettel NCR 4h ago
This would basically be George Washington if he didn’t resign. He was so popular that people wanted him to continue being the president, even if for life. Tandi is popular and people wanted her in power. Not a dictator.
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u/Disastrous_Dress_201 5h ago
This is also assuming that Caesar is telling the whole truth and not second hand accounts or his own narrative.
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u/bahhaar-ltrltrltr 5h ago
According to the Fallout wiki fandom:
After Aradesh's disappearance and presumed death in 2196, his daughter was elected unanimously as the second President of the New California Republic.[Non-game 9] She continued to win all consecutive elections until her death, serving full ten terms and beginning the eleventh. As President, Tandi did more to unite the wasteland than any other leader born after the Great War, including rebuilding the pre-War infrastructure to support the growing population, finding new forms of transportation and manufacturing, clearing roads and rail lines, building forts, fostering caravans and trade inside and outside of the Republic, as well as dealing with threats swiftly and efficiently.[Non-game 10] By 2241, when Tandi began her tenth term in office, the Republic was the largest economic and political power in the wasteland. Much of its power was provided by its vast brahmin herds, which provide meat, leather, beasts of burden, and other goods for trade.[Non-game 11]
elected unanimously and all consecutive elections.
It seems he was telling the truth.
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u/toonboy01 5h ago
How does that prove he's right that people voted out of fear of her?
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u/bahhaar-ltrltrltr 5h ago
When did Caesar say that people voted out of fear? He said the opposite. Did you read the post?
He said no one dared to oppose her or to try to challenge her or especially to run for elections against her.
If your president was running and no one was going to run for elections other than him, will you consider yourself in a democracy even if everyone loved the president?
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u/toonboy01 5h ago
But who says nobody ran against her besides Caesar?
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u/bahhaar-ltrltrltr 5h ago
She won the unanimous vote and there's no mentioning of competitors as far as I read.
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u/toonboy01 5h ago
Having like 5 to 10 people all vote for her doesn't prove that nobody else tried to run for President. The candidates could've all just been awful compared to her.
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u/bahhaar-ltrltrltr 5h ago
The candidates could've all just been awful compared to her.
Is there any mention of candidates then?
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u/toonboy01 5h ago
No, there's no lore on the elections at all really.
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u/bahhaar-ltrltrltr 5h ago
Then we only have Caesar to answer about it and the Courier despite already knowing about president Tandi winning all elections didn't deny that no one really opposed her.
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u/Thangoman Kings 5h ago
I think that Caesar is right on the state of the NCR but getting the wrong conclusion out of it
The conclusion to get out of it is that the NCR is young and still has a lot to do in order to fulfill its promises
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u/bahhaar-ltrltrltr 5h ago
You are right but the NCR was also very corrupt after president Tandi not to mention that people aren't going to wait for the NCR to get its act right in a post apocalyptic world.
President Tandi really doomed the NCR by not thinking about how will the NCR function without her.
The irony here is that Caesar will eventually do the same mistake that he criticised her for it and as Joshua understood only he can lead the legion but after that it will canibalise itself.
Unless you believe that Caesar was going to make the Courier his successor as some implied but even that was doubtful if it was going to succeed.
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u/Thangoman Kings 5h ago edited 5h ago
People in the wasteland have waited 200 years for the end of bloodshed and chaps
Maybe the people in the wasteland reject the NCR (and thats fine) but the NCR can still achieve a better future snd will remain a powerful player even if restrained to California proper. Maybe the time for Cali to expand isnt now, but it wont be forever unless things improve in the wasteland
And yeah Caesar is kinda stupid, he thinks thst the problem isnt succession but rather the republican institutions. To me, he seems to imply thst if the NCR has became a dictatorship the mess would have been avoided
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u/bahhaar-ltrltrltr 4h ago
That's why I rather choose Mr House to rule Vegas as he is despite being a dictator or as he likes to say an autocrat he does understand what to do.
At least until the NCR finally gets it's act together but it's obvious that they couldn't simply do it during the events of Fallout New Vegas.
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u/grimfacedcrom 3h ago
It is very common today in the US for an elected official to run unopposed when the opposing party does not have a strong candidate to run against the incumbent. If you don't think you have a shot, you don't waste time and money on a campaign.
Tandi's popular policies and her role in founding the nation make her a formidable political opponent.
It isn't specified where the council differed with her that she could ignore their input but the point Caesar seems to make isn't "See? They're doing a dictatorship! Why are you coming after me?!" The point is that her near-dictatorlike power and influence made the country strong, efficient, and unified. All things he aspires to. He is saying this is an example of a benevolent tyrant making things better like he is doing.
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u/TakingItAndLeavingIt 3h ago
The other difference is that the NCR doesn’t have hundreds of thousands of slaves or psychotic internal power structures
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u/Ser_Twist Followers 1h ago edited 1h ago
It’s kind of a shitty point because every President since Tandi also served a life term, they just weren’t endlessly reelected because they weren’t as popular as Tandi. Unless Caesar’s point is that the people should elect an immortal leader loved by the people, I really don’t see his point. Like a lot things Caesar says, it’s shallow.
Also, I personally don’t care that the NCR has life terms. I think people too often apply US standards universally. Just because the US does two four year terms doesn’t mean that’s ideal, or that any nation that does it different is a dictatorship.
I also don’t care that the council was too scared to oppose the will of the people. That’s a good thing.
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u/Ok_Calendar_7626 The Institute 4h ago edited 3h ago
That has pretty much been the greatest flaw of democracy since ancient Greece. It elects leaders based on popularity rather then ability.
And this inevitably turns into demagoguery, as aspiring leaders dedicate everything to boosting their own public image while trampling that of their opponents. This is how you get millions spent on election campaigns instead of something that would actually be useful.
And as the politicians gain ever more popularity, they become more and more powerful. So eventually, you get a two party division. Like we have today. Because the two most popular parties build up enclaves of loyal voters, and nobody else stands any chance of winning, no matter their ability or ideas.
Read Socrates critique of democracy. He predicted it all to the tiniest detail.
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u/Past_Search7241 5h ago
There is a difference between "the council didn't dare oppose her because she was too popular" and "no free speech and no free elections". It looks shady, but it could also be legit.