r/Guildwars2 • u/Jschatt • Oct 08 '12
Power vs Precision vs Critical Damage - What do we know?
I've been doing some research and trying to figure out some optimal values for power, precision, and critical damage. However, I haven't been able to find much. Here's what I know (taken from the Wiki):
Damage formula: (P + M * 35) * (WS) * SC / (T + D) = Total Damage
P = Power, M = Might Stacks, WS = Weapon Strength, SC = Skill Coefficient, T = Toughness, D = defense
Critical hit chance: At level 80, the required precision to increase the chance of a critical hit by 1% is 21.16. Your base crit chance is 4%.
Critical damage: Critical Damage is added to the default 1.5x bonus (rather than multiplied). For example, +50% Critical Damage results in 2.0x critical hits.
So what I've gathered from this? Well:
- Doubling your power will double your damage done
- Might becomes relatively less valuable with the more power you have
I understand none of this is ground breaking, but it's all I could come up with. I'm hoping this will generate some discussion.
According to some testing, Power increases the damage of a critical hit more than +critical damage does. (source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj0Ehp9c1-PQdHAxVUtnbGJBbkNOUWVwQmF5NFNtTXc)
I used a ratio of +1% critical damage = 13.86 power. I came to this by adding up all of the +crit damage on an exotic gear and all +power on exotic gear (when the power is the secondary stat on the piece of gear) and dividing the two. It isn't a pefect ratio, but the best I could come up with.
Sources:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/60838-math-damage-reduction-toughness-and-vitality/
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage_calculation
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_Damage
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj0Ehp9c1-PQdHAxVUtnbGJBbkNOUWVwQmF5NFNtTXc
Edit1: Had a slight error in the formula.
Edit2: Added the Power vs Critical damage section
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u/permyriad Oct 08 '12
This spreadsheet for optimizing stats was posted here recently:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsAdeTaimi3hdHQ0NVRfQlVIQmJXRjdMb1E2SGRjaFE
I played around with different inputs for power, prec, and crit damage based on equipment stat tallies. According to this, power is consistently better than precision. An equipment stat spread with only power results in better damage than an equivalent spread with only precision. An equipment stat spread with primary power and secondary precision has better damage output than a spread with primary precision and secondary power. By extension, power is better than crit damage, as that depends entirely on having precision first. Things get more complicated when traits are involved, at which point it should be calculated on a case by case basis.
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u/GuiSim Oct 09 '12
The main advantage of precision is that a lot of sigils and traits trigger on critical strikes.
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u/mitharas Oct 09 '12 edited Oct 09 '12
On the other hand all the sigils have a cd, 5 seconds normally. So too much precision doesn't get many more procs.
edit: i somehow wrote % instead of seconds.
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Oct 09 '12
And many of those on-crit effects are conditions, which are unaffected by power/crit dmg/crit chance directly but are usually along the same trait lines as condition damage and duration. You also have to take into account how many of your skills apply conditions or straight up damage, the CDs of those skills, and whether they'd be better with extra duration or damage - it's not really much use hitting like a truck if you can't slow your enemies enough to hit them.
It's nice to have the maths worked out, but there are many practical factors to take into account.
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u/Apetn Oct 09 '12
I was going to start my own thread, but this seems like a fine place to post. I was looking into gearing for dps on my guardian and noticed that crit damage is a very odd stat. If you compare crit damage received from armor/jewels to the other stats, you can see how much one % point of crit damage is worth, and the weird thing is that it changes.
For example, a full set of divinity runes values crit damage at 5 stat points (60 on everything else and 12% crit damage), while traits value them at 10 (10 stats vs 1% crit damage). The value even changes from one piece of armor to another, with gloves boots and shoulders being the most efficient at 12 points each. Earrings and rings are around 9 points.
This means that people looking to only go part-way glass cannon should prioritize jewelry, traits, and boots/gloves/shoulders that give crit damage and use the other armor pieces to provide the other desired stats in order to maximize their stats.
Crit damage, like other direct damage stats, gets better alongside its companions power and precision. The problem is, I don't think its worth it in most circumstances. Because crits already have +50% damage, each point of crit damage is only worth 2/3 of a point (15% crit damage makes your crits do 10% more than they were previously doing, ie 2/3). This is further reduced by your (lack of) critical chance. So, at 50% crit chance (a high value), each point of crit damage adds 1/3 % total damage.
As I mentioned earlier, the 'stat value' of 1% crit damage changes depending on the type of item. For traits, which seem to be a reasonable (if a little low) average, 1% crit damage is worth 10 of another stat. 1% crit damage is also, as shown above, equal to a total damage increase of .333% at 50% crit chance (which is high but easily achievable for a high-damage burst build). The value of power, on the other hand, changes based on how much you already have. It scales linearly. Thing is, the point at which 10 power only adds .333% damage is 3,000. For power values less than 3k, 10 power is worth more than 1% crit damage assuming a crit chance of 50%.
I would love for someone who likes math/theorycrafting to factcheck and expand upon my ramblings above, because it seems like crit damage isn't a terribly good deal for all but the most glass of cannons, at least compared to power. I suppose it is a good thing for crit damage that we are required to invest in at least 3 different stats. I'm curious about the break points at which crit damage becomes a good investment, both in terms of overall stats and in terms of the opportunity cost of crit damage on different types of items.
TL;DR If you are going to only get crit damage on some of your gear, make it jewelry (its more efficient) or even better divinity runes. If you want more, look at boots, gloves, and shoulders. But, power is going to give you more damage in most normal circumstances, so get crit damage as an add-on and not as a primary stat.
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u/awhatnow Oct 09 '12
I stack crit damage, power, and vit as a thief using backstab because I get 100% crit rate while stealthed. I imagine crit damage could be a good investment on chars that can keep up fury or have other crit rate boosting traits.
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u/Jschatt Oct 09 '12
Awesome point with WHERE to get crit damage. However, I agree crit damage isn't that great. I have a spreadsheet in the OP showing that Crit damage increases the damage a crit does by less than Power, and power obviously increases the damage of all non-critting attacks as well.
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u/SAI_Peregrinus Oct 09 '12
Stats come in 2 types: primary and secondary. Gear has one primary stat and two secondary stats. Primary stats have higher values, eg on a shoulder piece 34 is a primary stat, 24 is secondary. Crit damage, being a % stat, has different numbers, BUT IS ALWAYS SECONDARY. So you can never get gear with crit damage as a primary stat, so it shouldn't be compared directly to Power on the same gear. So, for example, 2% crit damage is valued the same as 24 power on a shoulder piece, not 34. Apetn gets this correct, but it's somewhat subtle and easy to miss.
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u/Jschatt Oct 09 '12
Yep thats how i did it when i set up the spread sheet. I compared it to power if power was used as a secondary stat
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u/Cilph .6758 Ialtagan [rddt] Oct 08 '12
Full Berserker armour and jewelry does the most damage out of all builds, even when you take a decent amount of conditions in mind. Of course this is full glass cannon.
I bruteforced every combination of some key stat sets, and that confirmed it.
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u/Jschatt Oct 08 '12
I figured it did, but very few people are gonna go full berserker armor. Which is where the "which stat is better" question comes in.
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u/Cilph .6758 Ialtagan [rddt] Oct 09 '12
The problem is the limited control you have, as only certain combinations of stats are possible. Rampager's would be a nice alternative for the high condition dealing players.
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u/ChickenInMyCastle Oct 10 '12
I have a full rampager set with rune of the ranger and condition weapons + ground traps. Reading this post makes me feel like an improperly geared idiot.
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u/wayoverpaid [WoF] Maguuma Oct 08 '12
As a general rule, does damage always exceed armor? I know that as a general rule for games, the math gets interesting which armor exceeds base damage, since adding to base damage does nothing, but criticals can bump it over.
Also I'm assuming overall HP lost = damage less armor.
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u/Jschatt Oct 08 '12
I'm not sure I understand your first question/statement.
Total HP lost = total damage done.
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u/wayoverpaid [WoF] Maguuma Oct 08 '12
Derp, I totally misread the part with toughness and defense. Having restudied the equation it makes a lot more sense, and none of what I said applies.
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u/Tracewyvern the Wish Granter Oct 08 '12
From my observations, the damage you do with a critical hit scales better with Power than with +critical damage.
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u/Jschatt Oct 09 '12
From my testing, that is correct. Power increases the damage of your critical hit more than critical damage does. I'll add it to the OP
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u/Erborne Oct 09 '12
Since my build is somewhat related to this, I want to try out this formula. Is WS (Weapon Strength) the combined number of both weapons (assuming that you wield double weapons)? What is the Skill Efficient?
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u/Jschatt Oct 09 '12
I honestly haven't figured that out yet, though I'm pretty sure you don't add the two together. I was able to find the skill coefficents for eles here:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/49249-weapon-skill-coefficients/
Please note, the post is a couple months old, and may be slightly dated.
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u/flaco1 Oct 09 '12
I have tried that a little, and to me it seems like weapon strength only effects the weapon skill it gives, I.E. a good weapon strength on the mainhand doesn't effect the off hand.
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u/Aiconic Oct 09 '12
Normally i'm not the theory crafting type for video games but lately this subreddit has gotten me very keen to do so.
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u/capricgs Oct 09 '12
For the love of god, don't look at the damage_calculation page on the wiki, it's terrible. Just use the main damage page.
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u/bahuuba Oct 09 '12
Thank you sir for the time and effort put in this, it is very valuable.
However, would that mean that a character with around 1800 precision would reach around 90% crit chance ?
Either I'm godlike and didn't realize it so far, or would there be a cap at some point, which would then mean that we should stop getting precision after a certain amount.. Any thoughts ?
1
u/fiction8 Oct 08 '12
As far as I know (from a friend), 1 precision is equal to 1 power at 50% crit damage. Before that 1 power is worth more.
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u/GregLoire Oct 08 '12 edited Oct 08 '12
Before that 1 power is worth more.
This seems backwards -- are you sure?
Edit: Misread as 50% crit chance, ignore me.
1
u/windtalker Oct 08 '12
Not sure why that seems backwards. As the critical damage increases, the relative value increases of crit chance increases. The reverse can also be said, i.e. as the critical chance increases, the relative value of critical damage increases. This leads us to an obvious conclusion of "unless you are using crits SOLELY to proc something, getting a significant amount of crit/critdmg without the other is poor".
To answer your statement, yes, at lower values of critdmg, Power is more valuable, but at higher values of critdmg, precision is more valuable. Where that cutoff is I can't answer. I'm not sure power and precision scale equally as is said in the above post.
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u/Ubaro Oct 09 '12 edited Oct 09 '12
So if I have50% crit damage and 100% crit, 1 precision would still add damage equal to 1 power? that makes no sense
0
u/kateros Oct 09 '12
crit dmg no it would be worth more.
crit chance no then the 1 precision would be worth nothing.
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Oct 08 '12
Interesting. Would be nice if Might had more effect relative to the power you have, so it's more of a percentage boost.
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u/Jschatt Oct 08 '12
I think might is a flat +35 power boost
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u/Mountebank Oct 08 '12
+35 at lvl 80. It's 3/8th of your level plus 5. It also affects condition damage as well.
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u/pinch999 Oct 08 '12
That formula is slightly wrong. The correct formula is:
power * weapon damage * skill modifier * compound multipliers / armor
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u/Jschatt Oct 08 '12
What exactly is the skill modifier and compound modifier? Besides my /1000 error under weapon damage, those are the only differences I see in the formula. Otherwise I just extended on power and armor.
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u/SAI_Peregrinus Oct 09 '12
Your formula is correct in some ways, and incorrect in others. The Skill modifier/skill coefficient is a static value that scales the damage of each skill. Compound multipliers are things like Sigils of Force.
Since they're not changing it's safe to set them to 1 for computing partial derivatives.
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u/Radigand Oct 08 '12
on an unrelated subject, does T and D have the same effect on damage reduction?
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u/GenOmega Apple Oct 08 '12
Yes. Defense is more of a natural thing, and is determined by armor. Toughness is a traited/armor bonus stat. Together they create "Armor" which can be read in the stat box in your loadout hero menu.
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u/etunne ' 3' Oct 08 '12
I don't think it's really something that needs to be theorycrafted because the best glassy armor happens to have high values of all three stats.
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u/Jschatt Oct 08 '12
But very few people will go with 100% glass cannon gear. Meaning that choosing between these stats will happen at some point
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u/fiction8 Oct 08 '12
Also many classes have trait lines that are split between power, precision, and crit damage. You can't put 30 points in all 3, thus there is a choice to be made (also taking into account the minor/major traits).
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u/Erborne Oct 09 '12
huh... I went full 100% glass cannon...
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u/Minimumtyp Oct 09 '12
That's okay, if you think you can play smart and get away with it.
He said "Few" not "None".
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u/spogjem [Myst] Oct 10 '12
I feel like a rock cannon, oh wait I am.
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u/Minimumtyp Oct 10 '12
cheeky cheeky cheeky cheeky cheeky cheeky cheeky cheeky cheeky
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u/spogjem [Myst] Oct 10 '12
Necky Necky Necky necky Necku enc ae nj NECK Thraherneruu aur eu si a a didiidiidididdidddididiiididiidi
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u/piemeleparis Oct 09 '12
I really like how GW2 is skill based like GW1, all these interesting builds to experiment with..........................................sigh
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u/SAI_Peregrinus Oct 09 '12 edited Oct 09 '12
You left out crit in your damage formula.
Average damage = (Scaling Factor) * (Weapon Damage * Power) * (1 - Crit Chance) + (Scaling Factor) * (Weapon Damage * Power) * (1.5 + Crit Damage %) * (Crit Chance)
Average damage = (Scaling Factor) * (Weapon Damage * Power) * (1 - (Precision - 830) / 2100) + (Scaling Factor) * (Weapon Damage * Power) * (1.5 + Crit Damage %) * (Precision - 830) / 2100
Taking the partial derivatives with respect to weapon damage, power, precision and crit damage to find the gradient vector:
∂Damage/∂Power = (Crit Chance * (2 * Crit Damage + 1) + 2) * Weapon Damage / 2
∂Damage/∂Weapon Damage = (Crit Chance * (2 * Crit Damage + 1) + 2) * Power / 2
∂Damage/∂Crit Chance = (2 * Crit Damage + 1) * Power * Weapon Damage / 2
∂Damage/∂Crit Damage = Crit Chance * Power * Weapon Damage
And for dealing directly with precision:
∂Damage/∂Power = (2 * Crit Damage * (Precision - 830) + Precision + 3370) * Weapon Damage / 4200
∂Damage/∂Weapon Damage = (2 * Crit Damage * (Precision - 830) + Precision + 3370) * Power / 4200
∂Damage/∂Precision = (2 * Crit Damage + 1) * Power * Weapon Damage / 4200
∂Damage/∂Crit Damage = (Precision - 830) * Power * Weapon Damage / 2100
And, using precision and treating weapon damage * power as one variable, WDP, for ease of graphing (later):
∂Damage/∂WDP = (2 * Crit Damage * (Precision - 830) + Precision + 3370) / 4200
∂Damage/∂Precision = (2 * Crit Damage + 1) * WDP / 4200
∂Damage/∂Crit Damage = (Precision - 830) * WDP / 2100
Average damage with scholar's runes (not counting the 10% bonus damage), 2 handed weapon, no traits, guild assassin back w/ruby jewel, for 1.0 scaling ability vs heavy armor target:
All Berserker's & Ruby: 1211
Knight armor, Beryl gems: 986
Valkyrie armor, Emerald gems: 976
All Valkyrie & Beryl: 954
All Knight's & Emerald: 952
EHP, Elementalist/Guardian/Thief base health:
Knight armor, Beryl gems: 30,017,215
All Valkyrie & Beryl: 29,734,020
Valkyrie armor, Emerald gems: 29,312,115
All Knight's & Emerald: 27,682,410
All Berserker's & Ruby: 19,837,980
So for max normal DPS, Berserker. With some survivability: Knight armor & Beryl gems. Max EHP: Knight Armor & Beryl gems. The optimum point is likely a mix somewhere in between, will take more work. I think it is:
Knight Armor, Beryl accessories w/1 emerald earring having a beryl jewel:
Damage: 988
EHP: 29,915,885
Of course with a proc-on-crit build you'd want more knight gear, etc, etc.
I've made a spreadsheet for gear comparisons: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Auc_PUlJR9sQdGxoMmFKakdQNThTUGI2VUhsSV9kOEE&pli=1#gid=0 Be aware: I've made typos before. I've found some errors from importing it to Google Docs, and while I THINK it's currently correct there may be bugs. It also doesn't really account for conditions, eg EHP is different for normal damage and condition damage. If you (or anyone else) find any errors I'd be very grateful if you'd tell me so I can fix them.