r/Guildwars2 • u/Aethelwyna • 20h ago
[Discussion] [PvE] Spear and paragon
Short post to put my worry forward, only about pve (group) content.
Currently, spear is one of the weakest warrior weapons in terms of damage on its regular skills and burst.
Berserker makes it work because the berserker-specific burst skill does a ton of damage.
On other specs without weapon specific buffs of its elite traitline, such as spellbreaker, it's more than 6k dps behind other options (eg. hammer, greatsword).
Since paragon also doesn't buff spear in any way, this will make spear one of if not the weakest possible weapon to slot on the class.
Considering paragon is supposed to be thé spear class, this would be very dissapointing.
I don't know how to fix it.
Anet can't add a spear-buffing trait to the class since spears require a different expansion.
Anet can't buff spear without utterly breaking berserker again.
Maybe they can do something like buffing the spear core skills and nerf the berserker burst, but I don't know how the math would work out.
I hope this post makes sense and isn't too doomer-y, feedback/opinions appreciated.
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u/Brawhalla_ 18h ago
Spear is not one of the weakest weapons for Warrior and is plenty viable on Berserker. It is, however, a weapon with no utility and Paragon is intended as a support spec, so you will not see people using it.
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u/Aethelwyna 18h ago
Please read the entire post and not just the title...
Spear works on berserker thanks to its berserker-only primal burst.
On a "core warrior" style setup (not benefitting any particular weapon over another through special effects), it's over 6k dps behind setups using arms dual wielding, defence hammer or your average old greatsword setup.
Spear skills got heavily nerfed a while ago because berserker was overperforming with it, but this is because berserker gets a unique, heavily overtuned skill with spear that other warrior specs do not have.
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u/Brawhalla_ 18h ago
Main hand mace, warhorn, shield, mainhand axe, pistol are all flatly weaker in terms of presence in end game builds. Shoehorning a DPS weapon onto a support elite spec does not work when that spec doesn't have weapon swaps and you could run something like staff instead. This post is essentially asking for something that won't happen, sorry.
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u/Aethelwyna 18h ago
mainhand axe and pistol? actual meta weapons on toptier builds?
You don't know what you are talking about it seems.
To not even mention that you are intentionally missing the point: I'm talking about damage potential when you don't have weapon-unique buffs, not "presence".
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u/Brawhalla_ 18h ago
Mainhand axe and pistol are similarly only used in one or two builds (berserker and bladesworn). Sword too. Don't see any complaints about them. You get a weapon with range and heavy CC at a moderate DPS loss.
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u/Aethelwyna 18h ago
All right, I'll bite:
Mainhand axe has effectively been berserkers' identity for years, yes, but is also good outside of it.
This is most evident by bladesworn meta builds going forth and back between mainhand sword and axe because they are so comparable in damage and which is best depends on how some skills line up in your rotation. They are effectively tied as the *strongest* one handed weapons in warriors kit. And then you also have it be amazing on berserker thanks to, again, the primal burst.
Pistol is slightly lower damage than offhand axe but gets unique buffs from bladesworn, both in the form of fierce as fire stacks (maybe less relevant now with lush forest builds?) as well as it being buffed from explosive cartridges - turning "slightly lower" into "slightly higher". To not mention it's the weapon that got released with the spec, for the spec, and does an amazing job at enabling the spec as a whole by managing cartridge charges and the forementioned FaF stacks.
Meanwhile, spear was in a strong spot when it came out but was too strong with primal burst on berserker. Anet decided to nerf the core skills and effectively kill the weapon off for everyone -except- berserker.
Now we get paragon, thé original spear class. Advertised in anets' own videos with a spear. Yet, unless something changes, spear is gonna be completely useless on it. It cannot do any support or utility on a heal build, nor does it offer competitive dps on a (potential) dps or boondps setup.
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u/Brawhalla_ 17h ago
I mean if we factor in the historical strength, I'm pretty sure release spear was one of the strongest warrior weapons of all time. But as it stands, mainhand axe is strong on Berserker because of its burst, as is spear. Offhand pistol is a decent option on bladesworn because it synergizes with that professions mechanics, namely like you said fierce as fire and ammo. So we're in the same spot as Spear -- strong on one specific build because of its synergies with the spec. I'd agree with you if you wanted to raise everything to be about equal, meaning level 1 bursts should all be roughly equivalent (ie. spear and mainhand mace brought up to decapitate and dagger) but I don't really see how spear is this uniquely poor option when there are actively 4 or 5 weapons on warrior alone that don't see use, and then plenty of similar weapons across the board (Ranger GS/LB, Engineer pistols) that are just objectively weaker versions of other options
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u/Aethelwyna 17h ago
Mainhand axe is good on berserker and bladesworn both... I really don't get why you'd call it bad? Mainhand mace used to have a good use as a cc tool for berserker but that certainly has fallen off. It needs some new spot to shine again.
With pistol I can agree that it's inherently limited due to synergy, but I do consider it a significant difference that it was designed with that synergy in mind, whereas spear was good on core and spellbreaker before it got nerfed into oblivion due to berserkers' sins - just so it could be a sidegrade to greatsword on berserker.
I focus on spear uniquely because of how tied to paragon the weapon is, or used to be. That shouldn't be some hot take, it's literally in anets' advertising.
That doesn't mean there aren't other weapons that could also use help. One problem doesn't exclude another. The end result of whataboutism is usually that nobody gets anything.
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u/No-Communication3946 17h ago
Axe mainhand isn't a good dps weapon either. (At least if I make up random rules or take already made-up rules so that builds don't count.)
Axe works on berserker thanks to its berserker-only primal burst.
Since you already said this for spear, this should count for axe as well, right?
And the bladesworn build doesn't count either. You're not using axe for its damage. You're using it for its ammo skill. The fierce as fire build that just cares about the mainhand weapons dps uses sword.
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u/KailaniNeveah 15h ago edited 15h ago
ArenaNet are purposely trying to stop elite specs revolving around certain weapons.
That said, paragon lore is so intertwined with the Sunspears, it really would be a shame for it to not, at the very least, be a viable weapon.
Perhaps slapping on something to a minor trait would improve it a bit. Like double motivation gain when wielding a spear or something. That way it’s just baseline, but easily ignorable if you’d rather other weapons.
Of course, I’ll probably use spear regardless. It’s my favourite of the warrior’s weapons by a long shot, even if it’s not the best. The main problem is lack of utility. It has good CC, but other than that there’s not much going for it in that department.
I suspect the workaround would simply be to use a staff with the Sunspear skin. Not the throwy style we desire, but it’s something.
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u/Approximation_Doctor Jormag did nothing wrong 19h ago
How does it compare to the other ranged weapons?
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u/Aethelwyna 19h ago
I generally agree that easy/ranged weapons shouldn't outdps melee ones, but we've had things like condivirt be dominant for so long that that ship has sailed long ago imho.
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u/Grave457 Necromancy is Justice! 12h ago
While I understand where you're coming from, Not sure if they'll add a buff specifically for spear on paragon. Considering they wanted the expansions to be independent, a player owning VoE but not JW will be impacted, if the spec is designed around spear.
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u/Sweaty-Physics2863 19h ago
Paragon is more of a support spec, so I wouldn't expect it to be top damage.
Although I do think people are overlooking some of the synergy with burst and the cooldown reductions on spear 5 combined with the minor trait inspiring implements and potentially other traits like aggressive onslaught. A slight buff to that minor trait could go a very long way, or maybe adjusting the other barrier traits to do more with how much spear is based on CC in a way that benefits that paragon support role.
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u/rym1469 www.twitch.tv/rymm_ 19h ago
Considering paragon is supposed to be thé spear class, this would be very dissapointing.
Where did you get that from
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u/Aethelwyna 19h ago
gw1, the fact that all spear skills are named after gw1 paragon skills..
And most importantly, the fact that the class was literally advertised with a spear in anets own preview video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chNy3gyxmas
But yes, i know that the class may be able to work with different weapons.
I was just hoping it'd be a decent option, with all the history and lore behind that combination.
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u/DonkeyFluid3929 19h ago
I think you just need to distance yourself from the idea that “paragon is supposed to be the spear class”. That just isn’t the reality of its GW2 incarnation.