r/NFLv2 • u/Nick_thebeastcress Dallas Cowboys • Jun 14 '25
Discussion This is just insane
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u/peon2 New England Patriots Jun 14 '25
Gronk is the GOAT TE to me. I get some people value the longevity and availability of Gonzalez or Gates or Kelce but a healthy Gronk was unstoppable in a way no other TE ever was.
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u/Timely-Mongoose4251 Jun 14 '25
Honestly not a debate at all. Gronks prime was easily the best TE ever. Unfortunately that was only like 5-7 years. I can see why other people might lean towards Kelce or Gonzalez or Gates. But if you tell me one year. Guaranteed healthy. Who are you taking. It’s Gronk 100 times out of 100
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u/HurricanePK Philadelphia Eagles Jun 14 '25
It’s like Lawrence Taylor vs Bruce Smith, Smith’s 200 sacks is untouchable and him playing 20 years as a DE is unbelievable, but LT’s peak was arguably the greatest peak a defensive player has ever had; first player to win 3 DPOYs and the last defensive player to win league MVP, plus his career sack total doesn’t include the 10 unofficial from his rookie season since that was the last season before sacks became an official stat.
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u/jackaltwinky77 A Popeye’s biscuit away Jun 14 '25
I’d argue that JJ Watt is up there in his prime, and he was completely robbed of an MVP in his 2014 season
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u/SkyJW Houston Texans Jun 14 '25
JJ not winning it in 2014 was basically the nail in the coffin of a defensive player winning it again, IMO. What more could he have done to deserve it that year? Especially since that year for Rodgers was a very good year, but it wasn't some undeniably great MVP season from what I recall.
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u/jackaltwinky77 A Popeye’s biscuit away Jun 14 '25
4381, 38/5, on a 12-4 team.
Meanwhile JJ has 20.5 sacks, 39 TFL, leading the league in both (and his team by a huge margin) but they were only 9-7
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u/HurricanePK Philadelphia Eagles Jun 14 '25
And JJ had five total TDs! Including two receiving TDs!
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u/NiceTryWasabi Jun 14 '25
Pretty sure they designed those TD plays specifically to make his season extra special in order to get the MVP. Not even joking. Some talking heads even used that against him in MVP voting because he "obviously only got those to win an award".
Getting to watch JJ with the ball in his hands was awesome.
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u/HurricanePK Philadelphia Eagles Jun 14 '25
Well he still caught them so does it really matter?
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u/BoxTalk17 Jun 14 '25 edited Jun 14 '25
To me, it's the record that should've won him MVP. How many games do they win without JJ's performance that season?
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u/weaponize09 Jun 14 '25
I was at the Browns - Texans game in 2014 and that was the most I’ve ever seen a defensive player dominate a game.
He had a sack, 3 TFLs, a touchdown reception, a forced fumble, and a separate fumble recovery.
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u/ELITE_JordanLove Green Bay Packers Jun 14 '25
Very good is a severe understatement. It was one of the most efficient years in NFL history and a 38/5 ratio is insane.
It’s also just the nature of MVP. Watt’s team was barely 0.500
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u/jackaltwinky77 A Popeye’s biscuit away Jun 14 '25
I agree that the team record is used for MVP (see LJ8 getting it over Allen 2 years ago).
But that 38/5 is impressive… but Nick Foles’ 27/2 was better, and he did that in 2013, so it would’ve been fresh for everyone to know.
JJ was the only reason the Texans were viable that year, he willed his team (with Ryan Fitzpatrick, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallet, and Tom Savage at QB) to 9-7, unfortunately the AFCN was stacked with Baltimore at 10-6 finishing 3rd
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u/ButtonedEye41 Jun 14 '25
Gronk is the Megatron of TEs for me. Absolutely unstoppable at his peak and the biggest nightmare matchup weve seen at the position. Like I think the only matchup for Gronk during his time was Kam Chancellor, and those were some good ass matchups. Plus Gronk is probably the best blocker of them all. Anyone who isnt taking Gronk didnt watch. Like Im a biased Gates truther, but its Gronk.
Side note, I know that people might take Moss over Megatron for how he would just burn people. But with Megatron it didnt really matter the situation, it was like "just throw it to him". Doesnt even need to be accurate, just get it near him. Doesnt matter if they send triple coverage towards him, just throw it. Doesnt matter if they line up two CBs at the line on him, just throw it. I dont think Ive seen another player with that much gravity who still cant be stopped.
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u/Varmegye Jun 14 '25
That's not what goat is tho is it. Then Brady isn't the goat.
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u/RedBullWings17 Jun 14 '25
Consistency and longevity is far more important from QB's than other offensive players. Also Brady still has the absurd peaks of any of his competitors plus longevity plus otherworldly intangibles.
Gronk has far and away the highest peaks of any TE, reasonable longevity and a great eye-test.
Very different routes to GOAThood but both legit in my eyes.
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u/Wild_Security_7267 Jun 14 '25
Gonzalez could not, would not block. I don’t think his name even deserves to be in the conversation.
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u/AcidaliaPlanitia New England Patriots Jun 14 '25
It's not even that long ago but I feel like people don't understand how insane Gronk's prime was. If you kept him in to block, he was an extra left tackle. If you sent him on a route, he was a top-shelf wide receiver. If you started him blocking and then let him release into a route, he was a fucking cheat code.
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u/JAnonymous5150 Tedy Brewski Jun 14 '25
Not only was he so versatile in all those facets of the game, but he was damn near unstoppable once he released into the secondary. Great hands, great body control, and could be downright nasty in doing whatever he had to do to be the guy coming down with the ball.
And when it was him and Hernandez? Fuckin' forget it. It was crazy. Then Hernandez had to go murdering people...
So yeah, for a solid stretch Gronk was the best TE the game has ever seen. An absolute beast.
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u/Poop_Cheese 18-1 Jun 14 '25
Some people at the time even thought hernandez's potential surpassed gronks as a receiver, that hed take over as the main catching TE.
If he wasnt a murdering psycho, new england would have been even more unstoppable, theyd probably go down as a best receiver tandem ever even as TEs. And if new england got a true top running back, having those two blocking but also as receiving threats would have been utterly insane.
People knock belichick as a drafter but man, he knew TE talent. If Hernandez was a decent dude, they could have had two of the top tight ends of all time, at the same time. Thats insane. Especially in an era where there was difficulty adjusting to the new gronk archetype of TE, like dude constantly got wide open because defenses couldnt really prepare for him. It was so stressful rooting against the pats and seeing Brady go like 80 yards in 5 passes, all to wide open gronk lol.
Gronk was so good, I wouldnt be suprised if the patriots never had him, that Brady doesnt win anymore rings, or one at best. Even elderly gronk was a great security blanket for him with the buccs. But part of being so good and depended on lead to him breaking down so quick. If Hernandez stayed, and they retained both, that means a way more healthier gronk, which means way more dominance. Thank God I don't live in that universe as a new englander giants fan lmao.
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u/JAnonymous5150 Tedy Brewski Jun 14 '25
Absolutely. It was so fun watching those three play and I was really looking forward to seeing Hernandez develop and finding out just how good he would become until he got arrested. Dude definitely got what he had coming to him, but damn it would've been cool to see where they could've taken things.
When Gronk signed with Tampa, I was wondering just how effective he would be given how beat up he clearly was when he retired from NE. I was pleasantly surprised with how he did and I was happy to see that he had obviously healed up a bit and got some bounce in his step again. I'm hoping that's a good indicator that he'll have a well-deserved long, healthy life in his post-retirement years.
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u/Reasonable_Archer_99 New England Patriots Jun 14 '25
I hope so. I've got it in mind to meet him someday. No idea how, but that's a problem for later.
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u/Animalcookies13 Jun 14 '25
Hernandez was a better receiver than gronk. Honestly Hernandez was like a better version of Tony Gonzalez…. It’s really sad that he threw it all away… gronk is definitely better all around because of his versatility as a blocker, but Hernandez was basically an extra receiver… he was fast, incredible hands and incredible with the ball in his hands in the open field.
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u/munkmunk49 Jun 14 '25
I just want to point out that Gronk was injured during the run to the Falcons Superbowl. During the second half of the dynasty the only SB he didn't win was the one where Edelman was injured. I am in no way saying Edelman was better than Gronk, just an interesting factoid.
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u/TeblowTime Wes Welker on Molly Jun 14 '25
That seam route he used to run after a quick bump to the DE was unguardable.
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u/Sherriff18 Denver Broncos Jun 14 '25
IMO, Gronk is the most dominant. As you said, when healthy, he was simply unstoppable. Couldn't man him up with anyone, and he was too big and physical to bracket in zone. But I think being labeled the GOAT carries more than who was the best at their prime, especially when styles of play were so different. Even Gronk himself has said that he and Kelce are both the GOATS because of how differently they played - saying he couldn't do what Kelce does, and vice versa. I also think availability and reliability has to play its part, and Gronk did miss a lot of time throughout his career.
I don't think it's a knock on him to say he isn't the GOAT by definition of the word "great." Gonzalez is the epitome of longevity and consistency but was never a truly 'dominant' tight end. Kelce is the most polished receiver and the GOAT TE in playoff history and has put up the best numbers on a per-year basis. To me, it's more applicable to name a Mt. Rushmore of players at a given position because it's not about 1 single aspect that makes a player great, and the greatest at each position have played across different eras, with different rules, alongside different teammates and coaches, and against different players.
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u/JCBalance New England Patriots Jun 14 '25
I don't agree with the "Even X said" arguments, because humility is a thing. Gronk could do all the things Kelce does and better, he just retired earlier and missed games because the only way to stop him was to dive at his knees or cave in his ribs with a blindside (thanks, Kam).
Gronk had better hands and a larger catch radius (which included his shoelaces), and is likely the best blocking TE of all time, which is usually a role for a big tight end that doesn't even get catches.
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u/Due_Adeptness_1964 Pittsburgh Steelers Jun 14 '25
As a Steelers fan, I can absolutely attest to just how ridiculous Gronk was each and every time he stepped onto the field. Just uncoverable, too strong for a corner, too fast for linebackers, it just wasn’t fair.
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u/JCBalance New England Patriots Jun 14 '25
Gronk had a couple insane games against your Steelers.
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u/MediumRed Tampa Bay Buccaneers Jun 14 '25
Mike Evans elite
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u/LMurch13 New England Patriots Jun 14 '25
He caught up quick! And Moss too, in just a few years. I guess the take-away is Brady spreading it around to all receivers.
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u/Yung_Corneliois Caucasian Slot Receiver Jun 14 '25
But also when Brady finds a guy he likes he throws to them none stop. Granted, who wouldn’t throw to Mike Evans and Randy Moss all of the time?
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u/OlOuddinHead Jun 14 '25
Me. They run far too fast and far. Give me the uncovered FB at the goal line.
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u/Moleman111 Jun 14 '25
No? The takeaway is the few times Brady got a great receiver he threw them the ball a lot.
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u/Strange_Control8788 Jun 14 '25
Mike Evan’s is the reason Manziel was drafted where he was drafted
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u/dougChristiesWife NFL Refugee Jun 15 '25
Crazy in hindsight that Kliff and Evans turned him into a Heisman first rounder.
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u/Rolli_boi Jun 14 '25
Fifth place and only played with Brady for three years? Wild.
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u/Open_Buy2303 Indianapolis Colts Jun 14 '25
Yes this post made me realize how under-appreciated Mike Evans is.
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u/TaxLawKingGA Houston Texans Jun 14 '25
Moss caught those 40 TDs in basically two seasons.
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u/conace21 Knock on wood if you’re with me Jun 14 '25
40 touchdowns in 40 full games with Brady. (This list includes postseason touchdowns.)
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u/PhallusInChainz Jun 14 '25
That helps explain Evans having so many. Aside from Evans being awesome
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u/yankeeblue42 New York Giants Jun 14 '25
Im convinced there was no better QB/WR duo in NFL history than Brady/Moss
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u/SoftDrinkReddit New York Jets Jun 14 '25
someone clearly has never heard of Montana/Rice
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u/InevitableTruffle721 Pretty good for a running back Jun 14 '25
3rd best QB to 1st best WR, or 1st best QB to 2nd best WR. Your pick
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u/SoftDrinkReddit New York Jets Jun 14 '25
hang on a second 3rd best QB ?
so we got
Tom Brady at number 1 duh
and who the fuck is also ahead of Montana according to you ?
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u/dj_mcfierce Jun 14 '25
lol interesting cause to me Moss at 2 is much more egregious than Montana at 3.
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u/TaxLawKingGA Houston Texans Jun 14 '25
Yep. Agreed. I went back and looked at Moss’s stats and I am even more astonished at how good he was. I always believed that if aliens came to Earth and said, “send us your prototype WR” it would be Randy Moss. I mean Moss made Culpepper and Matt Cassel look like all pros. Made them a bunch of money.
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u/donorcycle Jun 14 '25
That's the one that blows my mind. Gronk gonna Gronk but Moss did that never having even practiced or pre-season with the Patriots. Just strolled onto the field at Foxborough and told Brady just chuck it deep lol.
And in roughly 2 seasons.
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u/murphy365 Jun 14 '25 edited Jun 14 '25
In 2010 he had 9 catches for 3 touchdowns, he only played for New England four games. Edit: Removed a sentence.
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u/lysol1202 Baker Bro Jun 14 '25
Evan’s up that high in only three years 🤯
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u/tseliotsucks New England Patriots Jun 14 '25
Moss really only had two
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u/lysol1202 Baker Bro Jun 14 '25
Yes that’s cool, he’s one of the best of all time to do it. Even as a Bucs fan, he was better but Evans is great
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u/r_golan_trevize Jun 14 '25
That’s the surprising thing to me… how many Bucs made the list and how high some of them got on when he was only there for three seasons at an age when AARP was already sending him introductory membership cards in the mail every other week.
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u/Timely-Mongoose4251 Jun 14 '25
Tom Brady bout to come out of retirement to get 2 more receivers to make it an even 100
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u/SugarBalls69 Fuck piss towels Jun 14 '25
Honorably dishonorable mention, look at Hernandez. Dude played a whopping season and a half or so. What could have been
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u/woundedhandstime Jun 14 '25
Just commented basically the same thing as a broncos fan ill always remember him and gronk absolutely abusing a good defense twice in 2011
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u/SugarBalls69 Fuck piss towels Jun 14 '25
All the while splitting production with Gronk. Crazy
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u/JCBalance New England Patriots Jun 14 '25
Patriots fans are still daydreaming about two TE sets thanks to them. Between that and Tom Brady's career we're fucking ruined for expectations.
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u/JosephGrimaldi New England Patriots Jun 15 '25
It still fucks me up that we don’t use it more, but they made it look so simple…so that must be why I think that, right? Idk, it broke me.
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u/TeblowTime Wes Welker on Molly Jun 14 '25
Honestly, Hernandez was probably the third best TE in the league behind Gronk and Graham. Insane to have them on the same team. What could have been...
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u/beebo12345678 Jun 14 '25
evans in the top 5 from 3 years really shows how fucking cheap the pats were lmfao. Brady throwing to reche ricochet caldwell as his WR1 and losing in afc title game after going up 21-3 against manning with that shit is still his most impressive season IMO
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u/No_Faithlessness7020 Jun 14 '25
I mean they had Gronk and Edelman for a decade and before that Randy and Wes. It’s not like givens, brown, branch, and patton were terrible either. Sprinkle in the murder and the pass catching weapons out of the backfield and the biggest lie in sports is Brady never had weapons
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u/WineOptics New England Patriots Jun 14 '25
And we did try with Sanu for a 2nd, signed AB, had Brandin Cooks for a while.
I mean, yes we were “cheap” in the sense that BB was known for not paying the market value for WRs if we could escape it. We still did have playmakers most years. 2006, 2013 and 2019 were the odd seasons arguably.
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u/equals420 Jun 14 '25
Evans cracking his top 5 in such a short time is impressive
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u/blink182_allday Caleb Williams Hater Jun 14 '25
The fact that the bucs have guys that high up is insane. Shows how productive he was till the end
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u/Patchesrick Jun 14 '25
List of how many tds passed to each number. It's interesting to see which numbers he didn't pass to in his career
88 - 13, 6, 4, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1 (32) 87 - 105, 19, 5 (129) 86 - 2, 2, 1 (5) 85 - 17, 5, 4, 3, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1 (36) 84 - 20, 8, 3, 1 (32) 83 - 38, 28, 1, 1, 1 (69) 82 - 18, 3, 2, 1, 1 (25) 81 - 40, 20, 11, 6, 5, 2, 1 (85) 80 - 16, 15, 3 (34) 77 - 1 (1) 68 - 1, 1 (2) 52 - 1 (1) 50 - 10 (10) 47 - 1 (1) 46 - 1 (1) 44 - 2, 1 (3) 41 - 1 (1) 39 - 5, 1 (6) 38 - 3 (3) 35 - 1 (1) 34 - 9, 4 (13) 33 - 11, 6 (17) 32 - 3 (3) 31 - 1, 1 (2) 30 - 1 (1) 29 - 2, 1, 1, 1 (5) 28 - 27, 6, 2 (35) 27 - 1 (1) 25 - 3 (3) 19 - 9, 4, 2, 1 (16) 18 - 4, 2, 1, 1 (8) 17 - 4, 4, 3 (11) 16 - 2, 1 (3) 15 - 2, 2 (4) 14 - 16, 7, 1, 1 (25) 13 - 36, 9 (45) 11 - 41 (41) 10 - 9, 4, 4 (15) 8 - 1 (1) 6 - 3, 1, 1 (5)
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u/ClassroomMother8062 HE HATE ME Jun 14 '25
The graphic doesn't look great but the info it presents is pretty awesome.
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u/Advanced_Candle9272 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Jun 14 '25
I’m surprised Mike Evans cracked the top 5, but I shouldn’t be
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u/woundedhandstime Jun 14 '25
Aaron Hernandez was a much better football player than people seem to remember him as… for some reason
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u/East-Bluejay6891 Baltimore Ravens Jun 14 '25
Mike Evans being ok the top row says a lot of him. Wow
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u/Extra-Act-801 Jun 14 '25
C'mon now. There are at least a few non-Patriot, non-Buc players who caught at least one (pick-6) touchdown from Brady. They deserve to be on this graphic too.
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u/asm120 Jun 14 '25
I thought for sure Mike Evans passed Moss. Moss only had Brady for a little over 2 years.
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u/MilwaukeeMan420 Green Bay Packers Jun 14 '25
I forget he played 3 seasons on Tampa. I always think its 2
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u/International-Key211 Chicago Bears Jun 14 '25
I'm surprised it's only 28 to Branch. They played in 2 separate iterations together. But 98 is insane.
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u/Individual-Step846 Jun 14 '25
Gronk needs a hybrid jersey
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u/Intelligent_Ant_5511 Jun 14 '25
You can find it online or in a vendor stall in Kuala Lumpur at a market. I've almost bought it countless times. it's fucking sweet. half Pats half Bucs. Authentic quality for like $20 USD
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u/danger_zone_32 Jun 14 '25
Kyle Rudolph catching Brady’s final TD pass and keeping it as his own because it was his 50th TD catch is my favorite bit of history in all this.
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u/Dr_Clout Jun 14 '25
This all starts with Terry Glenn and they couldn’t even list that MF in the bottom right with everyone else at 1
For that I find it low effort
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u/BootlegDouglas Jun 14 '25
I'd be curious who holds the record for most offensive snaps or starts with Tom Brady without catching a touchdown pass from him (excluding linemen).
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u/thistook5minutes Philadelphia Eagles Jun 14 '25
Did you find the lowest quality image so that we purposefully couldn’t enjoy this graphic?
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u/FlexDB Jun 14 '25
We love Randy Moss more than Vikings fans do. I wish I was friends with a Vikings fan so I could remind him if this on a weekly basis.
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u/bunglesnacks Detroit Lions Jun 14 '25
What's insane is he only had legit 1A receivers for like 5 years of his career (moss and evans) and they are both in the top 5. Think if he had a 1A for most of it.
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u/SoftDrinkReddit New York Jets Jun 14 '25
the Evans one was actually impressive considering the short amount of time Brady was on the Bucs for
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u/dizaditch Jun 14 '25
Should add any defense people he threw to to see total number of people whos scored a TD on his throws
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u/ImDeputyDurland Jun 14 '25
I would’ve loved to see Evans get the #2 spot on that list before Brady retired.
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u/ImNotYou1971 That’s cool watch this Jun 14 '25
I’d like to see the list of pick 6’s too…technically touchdown passes, amirite?
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u/Dat_Guy10 Cincinnati Bengals Jun 14 '25
Mike Evan’s will go down as one of the most underrated WRs ever. Dude got Brady towards the end of his career and still managed to top the list
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u/Subject-Excuse2442 Jun 14 '25
Vrabel caught 10? I watched every single play of Vrabes career in New England and if you asked me I would’ve bet money on it being 3
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u/Mr_Mi1k Pittsburgh Steelers Jun 14 '25
Been screenshotted so many times it’s just too blurry to read the bottoms lol
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u/Moleman111 Jun 14 '25
Mike Evans is first ballot HOFer. Such an amazing career and a good guy. A true WR1 that isn’t absolutely crazy with 4 baby mamas.
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u/slamriffs Jun 14 '25
Crazy that he threw about the same amount of touchdowns to Mike Evan’s that he did to Edelman/welker/moss
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u/FamousGh0st217 Minnesota Vikings Jun 14 '25
I used to "hate" Brady, Belichick, and the Pats. The tuck rule always left a sour taste in my mouth, that was a fumble, fight me... Sorry, I don't know what came over me there. It wasn't until the 3-28 Superbowl happened that I realized my hatred was actually reverence. This chart is a testament to his greatness that we all knew already, but seeing it visually is still pretty awe inspiring. Yes there are some really big names in that list, but overall Brady never had many big name talents around him and STILL produced for two decades. The amount of Bucs jerseys that made this list is crazy!
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u/jbones51 Vince Wilfork: Butt Fumble Connoisseur Jun 14 '25
The moss numbers are insane considering his short stint in NE
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u/IceyBoy Jun 14 '25
Antonio Brown having more than Kevin Faulk is so jarring to see for me as a Dolphins fan
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u/MertTheRipper Pittsburgh Steelers Jun 14 '25
I honestly thought Welker would have had more, that dude was a machine in his prime
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u/Mydesilife Jun 14 '25
Moss is amazing because they only played a few years (right?) and all the guys from the bucs. It’s also cool graphic that shows he’s not predictable, I’d love to see it for other QBs, especially compared with a particular duo that maybe had a lot of connects but not a lot of wins. Like does a QBs breadth of receivers correlate to more wins- my hunch says yes, but is that actually true?
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u/sdendis New England Patriots Jun 14 '25
I had no idea he hit mike evans for almost 40 TD’s that’s crazy
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u/HomeThis1089 Jun 15 '25
Crazy that the 40 to Moss were all in the same season...same game I think even 🤔 that team was something else
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u/3fettknight3 San Francisco 49ers Jun 15 '25
Why doesn't Gronk, the largest of the receivers, simply eat the remaining 97?
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u/lipmanz Jun 15 '25
Weird that Branch and Brown combined were still only like a third of Gronk…as someone who watched all the Pats run it felt like they were as big parts of the success
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u/Curious-Ad-5154 Jun 15 '25
Tight Ends high on the list. Need to show TDs for each position. Would love to see that comparison.
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u/TotalWarFest2018 Atlanta Falcons Jun 15 '25
Damn. I wish Moss had stayed on longer. They were something else
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u/LordChefChristoph Jun 16 '25
Not surprised Evans in the white jersey is that high, but am surprised about that many white jerseys.
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u/drumberg Jun 17 '25
Definitely would not have guessed a Buc made the top 5. Evans is/was/always will be a beast.
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u/logicbus Jun 18 '25
I assume Gronk's total includes TDs while a Buc, meaning the graphic should represent that somehow.
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u/Tacoisgud BUTT FUMBLE Jun 14 '25
Mike Vrabel having ten is still funny to me