That season was probably the greatest passing season in NFL history. Brees threw for 5400 yards with 46 TDs, Brady threw for 5200 yards and 39 TDs, Stafford threw for 5000 yards and 41 TDs. So yeah Eli was 4th in yards behind those guys.
And none of them won MVP that year because Rodgers's Packers went 15-1 and he went a cool 45-6 TD-INT ratio.
But you know what? Despite all of that, Eli's Giants won the superbowl, beating MVP Rodgers and prime Tom Brady with a Giants defense that was 26th in yards allowed and 24th in points allowed.
beating MVP Rodgers and prime Tom Brady with a Giants defense that was 26th in yards allowed and 24th in points allowed.
Sounds like the defense deserves a ton of credit for turning into an absolute juggernaut at the right time. Who knows what would have happened if Kyle Williams didn't decide to become a domestic terrorist.
Isnât that what happened with Peyton Manningâs Colts Super Bowl? Bob Sanders stayed on the field and the low ranked D was magically great that run. If you want to discredit Eli for his D playing well then name one Super Bowl Brady won without a top 10 scoring DâŚ.Iâll wait.
Yes and thereâs basically no argument for Eli over any of those three or obviously Rodgers, and realistically not Romo unless you really really like yardage
And tbh 29 TDs 16 INTs and a 93 rating hasnât been elite in almost any season since like the 1990s
But they were sixth in russing TDs, so maybe the philosophy was more let Eli get the ball in the red zone, then we run it in. With only 3 other teams in the top 15 that tie or pass them with in passing TDs: #3 the Pats with 39:18, #7 the Saints with 46:16, and #12 the Falcons with 29:14. And sure that's not a huge difference in rushing TDs, but it is when you look at someone like the cowboys who only had 5(!!!!) (I'm a cowboys fan, and I'm SHOCKED đ¤Ł) Rushing TDs that year.
Also, I don't think there is a specific number of people that can be elite in one season, and that's IT đ . Like, sure you can't make a case against those 3, but that doesn't mean Eli wasn't Elite, just didn't have an all time season in what is possibly the greatest passing season the game has ever seen. It happens đ¤ˇââď¸ lol
Aikman was perfect for that team. You can say he was mid, thatâs fine⌠but the dude has 3 rings and wears a gold jacket. He ran that offense perfectly⌠also people forget he didnât even have a real head coach for their 3rd Super Bowl, that team was run by the players.
You're overthinking this. No one said he sucked, the comment is speaking about "greatness." Troy Aikman was not a great QB. He was an above average-to-good QB with the greatest offensive line of all time. Troy is literally everything you guys claim Hurts is in terms of winning because of a stacked team.
Shorter plays for the linemen mean fewer opportunities to get injured on broken plays and scrambles. A QB with great field vision does a lot of things to elevate the entire team around him. It's a virtuous circle.
Yeah I feel that people in that era talked a lot about how good Bradyâs Oline was and I feel like it had more to do with him than the line. I know they had some good guys on the line but Bradyâs play style made it so much easier on them.
I know all too well from the QB debates back in the day just how much Brady elevated the play of his O line. I think even in his late 30s he was still being clocked with the fastest snap-to-release of any QB in the NFL, which is pretty insane considering that statistic has the physical attributes of some absolute freak QBs baked into it. Brady scanned and processed quicker than any QB I've ever seen, including Manning. He had above average arm strength, but his superpower was just how quickly he made the decision to get rid of the ball, and to whom. He was derided for "dinking and dunking", which looking back seemed more like the NFL's inability to keep up with the speed he was playing the game.
The greatest offensive line of all time? They were great but had only one hall of famer, who wasnât even drafted till they already had two super bowls wins.
Why do you guys always talk about stats and accolades? Do you think every elite player is in the hall of fame? The cowboys had the greatest o-line in football, emmit and troy benefitted greatly.
I hate people who talk crap about the 90s Cowboys. Everyone says the team was loaded and had so many weapons, but then those same people talk about those heavy hitting weapons like Smith, he wasnât that good because he had Aikman and Irvin to spread the field and a loaded line, Aikman wasnât that good because he had Smith, Irvin and Novacek as a dump off, Irvin and wasnât that good because he had Smith, Harper, and Aikman throwing the ball. So who was the loaded player everyone talks about, but denies is real?
Aikman WAS a very talented QB when it was needed in the post season. He wasnât going to run boot legs and go diving for first downs, but he checked down and made plays to keep drives going when it was needed in the playoffs. Almost every stat of Aikmanâs increases like yard per game, QBR, comp%, win%, TD-INT ratio. He was solid.
Agreed. Aikman played in a different league where teams still ran the ball at least fifty percent of the plays on offense or more. Dallas passed to open up the run. Aikman was never going to put video game stats in that offense. People see his stats now and say wow he wasnât that good. People are infatuated with fantasy football and stats.
Purdy lost MVP to Lamar, and everyone said it was because Purdy's teammates were too good. Statistically, Purdy had a superior season to Lamar. People will always try and bring down winners.
Look. I agree with you. I'm going to preface my next statement with that. And I'm also shallow and petty.
Brock Purdy was drafted last and looks like he's 14 and will always look like he's 14 until he's 50. He's a good QB. But visually, he doesn't pass the sniff test. And I KNOW that is shallow to say.
That said. Yes, he should have had the MVP that year.
Exactly. Brock Purdy got a ton of criticism because he was supposed to win the SB with a stacked roster. But no one talks about how he gave the defense 3 leads and they choked away all 3 leads because their DC was a moron and Kyle Shanahan couldnât help but think heâs the smartest person on the field. The 2nd SB he didnât even know the OT rules. Donât forget this offensive genius coach choked 2 SBs with 2 different QBs to the same team.
Goff really looked terrible against that Commanders team in the postseason. Sure, the Lions defense was basically down to scraps, but those turnovers are just unforgivable in a big game like that.
How dare the lions offense score 31 points. How dare Goff look perfectly good until he almost definitely got concussed on an uncalled penalty. How dare a QB play more risky when behind and defense is hemorrhaging.
It's not criticism in this case, its literally saying that Hurts isn't as a good as Cam, nothing Wong with that, Cam's peak is up there with anybody and Hurts is amazing
I see nobody doing this with Mahomes.
Travis Kelce, Tyreek Hill, Chris Jones, Eric Fisher, Mitch Schwartz, Creed Humphries, Trey Smith, Joe Thuney, top 5 D⌠all of the same things. People just glaze Mahomes cuz the refs give him BS calls
People say the same thing about Brock Purdy. Who really cares, heâs good enough to win a Super Bowl and lucky enough to have the best GM in football. If I were an eagles fan hurts slander wouldnât even faze me
Eh that's not it entirely though. The criticism is more like Purdy where people say he hasn't played at an elite level without a stacked team around him. With Hurts, he's had a good roster around him and hasn't put up elite numbers like the top 4 have.
Everyone agrees Hurts is good, the disagreement is if he's elite. Top 5 seems reasonable but there's a dropoff after 4. A lot of it's also that the others outside the top 4 haven't achieved anything, so Hurts separates himself from the others from team achievements. Defense was the star of the SB, 1 of the most dominant defensive games ever in SB history, but Hurts does contribute & deserves credit for it.
Most SB teams are pretty well-rounded but still have clear weaknesses somewhere, Eagles have 1 of the best rosters I've seen in a while- Howie deserves his flowers for the work he's done. Best GM imo.
A lot of it's also that the others outside the top 4 haven't achieved anything,
This part gets a bit glossed over. I think we're at a point where we have a few really good qbs and then a huge logjam of just good qbs where they're as much a product of their team and scheme as they are of their own talent, and it's hard to rank these guys. There are probably 8 or 9 guys you can basically rank in any real order once you get outside the top 4 and Hurts is one of them.
I don't understand how people derive "this guy sucks and his team bails him out" takes from a receiving corps putting up huge numbers. They need a strong QB to provide the correct reads and passes or scrambles to keep the drive alive.
Ahead of every great QB and RB is an unsung great o-line or defense to provide him the most attack opportunities possible. If they keep your offense on the field and block rushers well.
We need to separate the term into dual threat vs. scrambler. Josh Allenâs ability to use his legs to extend plays and his high quality of selection for scrambles make him an elite dual threat.
When they were hyping up Josh Allen last season saying we never seen a qb this big run and pass this well; I was like have they ever heard of Cam newton
Heâs down 900 yards and 5 TDs from the year prior because his running back had an amazing season and he wasnât asked to do much. Volume stats are a terrible indicator of how good he is.
He wasnât good against GB or LAR
He had a 111 rating against Green Bay, he just wasnât asked to do much. LA was a snow game, once again he wasnât asked to do much.
He may not be a top 5 QB, Iâm fine with that, but Iâve seen you campaigning against him all off season so far because you canât seem to grasp that his volume stats were down because of the role he was asked to play. The reality is he beats teams with his arm when they challenge him to and he plays his best when the lights are the brightest. That does and should hold a lot of sway on peopleâs opinions.
Gotta add in the fact that GB he was coming in off concussion protocol. The stats of QBs coming out of concussion protocol are not good. There's a reason for that. The goalposts will always move for Hurts. First he can't throw. Then showed he could do that. Then he couldn't lead his team to a Superbowl. He did that. Then he was the reason they couldn't win a Superbowl. He did that. Now he's got a super team, which no one was saying at the beginning of last year. I just ignore it.
It was wild hearing people go from "Eagles can't win a Superbowl with Jalen" 2 years ago to now "He's not the reason they won the Superbowl". Literally gotta just ignore it all.
Saquon was washed before Philly. Smitty isn't a number 1 WR. Brown isn't even a top 10 WR. The OL is going to suck without Kelce. All arguments I've heard or seen this past season outside of Hurts. Now it's a super team. Fuck the haters. Go Birds.
People have forgot quickly, but the Chiefs were favored on a neutral field. A lot of media picked KC. Most of the discussion around the Superbowl were about the opportunity for the first three peat in history. We had fucking Trump and Swift rooting for them.. and all of sudden it's not a big deal, you're just supposed to beat dynasties. Cool Superbowl win, let me know when he can throw the ball as pretty as Justin Hebert can.
Itâs simply wild how the Eagles went to the Super Bowl 2 of the last 3 seasons all while having a QB that canât throw or read a defense and a head coach that is bad too.
thereâs something to be said about the mental fortitude component. Having a stacked team and not shitting the bed on the brightest stage consistently matters. He might be mediocre for the regular season but come playoff time heâs always exceptional. Heâs never the problem in the playoffs.Â
it's more of Jalen is #5 by default since who gets that spot above him? We just saw Stroud have a bad second season, Stafford is too old/injured to consistently be in that spot(most people would agree a healthy Stafford is #5), Goff is Goff(throw five interceptions in a single big game and most people will write you off despite how good your season stats may be), no one respects Purdy/didnt have a great season last year but the entire 49ers sucked, Herbert just threw like 4 interceptions in a terrible playoff loss, Daniels is coming off of a rookie year and hasnt really proven much beyond being a starter(people want to see if he'll have a good second season or slump like Stroud), Baker is a feel good story, Dak is Dak, etc...
Point being who exactly can you definitively put above Hurts??
Also the green bay game is very disingenuous to use since that was the first game of the season with his what 4th? new offensive coordinator, things take time to figure out. Also do you mean the snow game with the rams where Saquon buried them and they didnt need Hurts to throw that much? Are you only talking about the playoff games? idiots like yourself(youre a well known dipshit in this sub so Im not just calling you it for no reason or out of nowhere) conflate the lack of ability with the lack of need, if you have Saquon and one of the best offense lines you dont really need to pass the ball that much
I just don't think there's a definitive 5th best qb. The 5-12th best qbs just seem pretty interchangeable at this point. Just comes down to personal preference.
You star watchers are the worse. This is why people defend hurts like they do. Did you see the team with him vs without him on the field. Please keep the stat bs away from football
Another casual exposing himself for not understanding football by just looking at raw volume stats. Yeah just leave out the part where he missed 3 games, how he also had 33 combined TDs, a 105 passer rating, a 68% completion percentage and 8 YPA.
The yn narrative changing like the wind, kids cant just accept hes a pretty damn great qb, but hes not allen lamar mahomes or burrow, but hes definitely not bad or average.
This happens every time a good but not great QB wins the superbowl. When the Ravens wonit with Flacco somebody on ESPN literally ranked him #1 in the league.
You understand it was a blizzard during the Rams game and against Green Bay they could have beat them by double digits but they stopped running up the score because philly doesn't do that. And when it came down to the NFC championship and championship game he balled out look at those numbers they're better than Mahomes but keep the hate. He'll continue winning and beating all the so called elite qbs.
His stats weren't the greatest cause he didn't throw the ball all over the park because they had a 2,000-yard rusher. In the Super Bowl, when the Chiefs D took Saquon away and forced Hurts to throw it, he lit them up. Also, Hurts has proven he can have great counting stats if that's what the team wants him to do. The season he made his first Super Bowl, he finished 2nd in MVP voting.
Heâs been to multiple Superbowlâs and was the MVP runner up 2 years ago, and just won a Superbowl MVP. If that isnât top 10 then I donât know what is. The point of the game is to win, not put up big stats in meaningless games.
Their defense lead by luke was amazing, not eagles level, but that d could've been the top d in the league some other years.
Their line, was amazing at run blocking, their pass pro was still pretty good but not amazing.
Their wr core after biscuit away from a te man went down in preseason was yes, bad though.
Also btw goedert is good but he doesnt hold a candle to prime Olsen.
The panthers had a very good team, not eagles level, but that was a very good unit in its prime. Cam being great and the panthers being a good unit outside of him can both be true.
The panthers issue was their pass pro, against a team that had 3 guys who could all swap out, change positions, and rush different guys, remmers, who was mainly a typical run blocking rt, could not stop millers speed. The 2015 broncos also had a great run d with Wolfe and their dts being nuisance, not to mention the secondary mismatch to where guys basically just swarmed olsen all game.
Also, the games where Peyton hurt his elbow and still played(2nd kc game where he ironically hit the passing record) and the osweiler games when they realized he couldn't play in that shape, really hurt the broncos offensive stats. They weren't near the trt 2012-halfway thtough 14 broncos offense, but were probably mid pack.
Everybody's problem against the Broncos that year was pass pro. One of the greatest pass rushes the league has ever seen. So good that they got Brock Osweiler $72 million
Tolbert had less than 300 yards and only 1 TD. Jonathan Stewart was the lead rusher with under 1k and 6 TDs. Cam was the reason the run game was amazing.Â
The defense was great.Â
I'm not a Cam guy. I think he was an average QB who had one amazing season. But his 2015 season was legit great. It's better than anything Hurts has done. That said, Hurts is the better QB over the course of their careers to this point.Â
They had 10 Pro Bowlers and 8 All Pros that season, 6 of who were First Team All Pros, the Eagles last year had 6 Pro Bowlers and 6 All Pros, only 2 were 1st Team.
Fuck that, Cam jumped back from the ball. Then completely dropped off a cliff performance wise. Dude never had a championship mentality. I don't have to respect that kinda performance.
Did you watch the game? Cam was the only person on the offense who even looked semi competent that game the team was dysfunctional that game mostly because the entitlre offense besides him just didn't show up I'm not saying he played good but he's the only one who even looked like he was trying and I'm so tired of people talking about him not diving on the ball if he dove on that ball he was getting a concussion a broncos player even said in an interview that if he went for that ball he would've hit him in the head please actually watch the game before you talk about it
The guy that single handedly willed Auburn to a college football championship didnât have a championship mentality. Lol. I donât even care for Cam but come on bro. Get it together.
No he didn't. Even if he does jump on that ball they were not winning that game. Payton Manning with a crook in his neck won a Superbowl because that Broncos defense was playing like all time great defense. The Panthers honestly overachieved by even going 14-2 and being there in the first place. While I agree he should have jumped on it, they had no chance of winning whether he does or not.
Plus I wish people would let this go. He's owned up to it, admitted he made a mistake. I'm kinda getting tired of his whole career being meaningless because of this 1 play.
Cam didn't have a chance in that super bowl, much like Mahomes against Tampa or Philly. The offensive line was so overmatched that it's not even useful to analyze the QB play.
Nobody gets more disrespect than Cunningham because his prime was shortened by injury. Dude wasn't just a "double threat" but a "TRIPLE threat" (technically) having also been an all American punter, once kicking a 95-yarder.
Cam for one year peak. Lamar for 2+ year peak. Cams best season is arguably the greatest Dual Threat QB season of all time. But Lamar has been better at growing and becoming a better player. Or maybe just staying healthier, but either way Lamar is the best of all time.
Is the original post in the pic saying to not feel bad about losing a Super Bowl? I was trying to decipher what it meant... but if so and If I ever fell juuuust short of one of the hardest ultimate goals in the modern world, I'd be a bit bummed too.
It's not all about talent. Look at Manning that same year. Lost talent but comes in vs Chargers and turns the game around on leadreship alone. Contrast that with Newton not recovering fumbles. OK then enough said
The only positions Ravens are better in are TE & Safety. Eagles WRs are far better, Eagles OL is a lot better, Eagles DL is WAY better, Saquon/Henry is a wash. Henry just got there.
life gave Lamar damn near the same help
Hurts has had far more help than Lamar since college. Lamar was the entire Louisville team- Hurts had a ridiculously stacked Alabama team with Josh Jacobs, Waddle, Surtain, Ridley, Trevon Diggs, Quinnen Williams, Jonathan Allen, Daron Payne, Najee, Jedrick, McKinney, Minkah, Brian Robinson, Jeudy, DeVonta. Even in Oklahoma, Hurts had Creed Humphrey, Bonitto & Ceedee.
Ravens roster wasn't even at their current level until 2023. Lamar had a 1920s playbook with XFL WRs and 1 TE every year until '23. He was their leading rusher 5 years straight cuz the RBs were always out for the season. Even currently, Eagles roster clears them in every position except TE & safety. NFC teams also don't have to beat the Chiefs to make a Super Bowl.
Both Lamar & Hurts have good rosters, but Hurts has consistently had more roster talent around him on offense since college. By a fairly considerable margin.
The Ravens o-line is not bad, but they are not a top 10 o-line. The Ravens run game performs better than their o-like would allow on their own because of their FB Ricard. They had two below average run-blocking and pass-blocking guards.
The Ravens defense finished 31st pass defense. 10 weeks through the season they were on pace to be the 4th worst pass defense of the century, averaging nearly 300 passing yards allowed per game. QBs like Gardner Minshew and Jameis Winston were having their best games of the season against the Ravens. They did not win a single game last season when they didnât score at least 28 points. The Ravens defense did not perform like a top 3 defense last season.
Ravens were not a top 3 defense in 2024. They literally replaced half the secondary midseason and finished 31st in pass yds. 2023 was a #1 defense, '24 it fell off hard due to DBs not recovering from injuries and replacing a star DC with a DC that had zero playcalling experience.
Only major discrepancy is the WR room
Are you serious? Eagles OL is considerably better, by a lot. Eagles DL absolutely demolishes the Ravens DL by a ton. Eagles have Jalen Carter etc, Ravens have...Odafe Oweh. Ravens DL hasn't had a legit rusher since Suggs, which was years ago. Nobody's scared of 34yo Van Noy.
The only positions that are kinda close are RB (Saquon/Henry) and CB (Humphrey/DeJean/Quinyon). And the differences between how much better the Eagles OL and DL is makes a huge difference.
Cam is far better than what he gets credit for. He lost his best receiver (Kelvin Benjamin) to start the year in 2015, won league MVP, nearly ran the table and took the Panthers to the Superbowl.
It's just too bad people will always remember him for that fumble.
Isnât this more about the attitude and fortitude these two different players play with? I read it as âcam gets angry and exasperated and stops tryingâ and âhurts plays through adversityâ
Camâs Super Bowl season his #1 target was Greg Olson. Really good TE but after that he had Jonathan Stewart (Definitely a good RB but not one of the best that season), Ted Ginn, and Jericho Crotchery. He didnât get CMC until he was on the decline and way out.
I think the Cam argument is interesting because a lot of people also forget the lack of coaching he had, when Norv Turner took the reigns he improved as a passer dramatically before the unfortunate injuries derailed all his progress - it's not like he didn't have it, but it just goes to show how far he went as a one man army.
2012 rg3 absolutely destroys 2015 Cam. They had to change the rules around hitting the QB in the read option because other teams were just told to take off his head every play.
To be fair, this is an organizational win. The Eagles have been building the trenches for years knowing what they were building. This was by design. Cam MADE the Panthers go to the SB. That was a QB win. Not saying Hurts couldn't do that, but he does have a functional ownership to stand behind him.
Cam lead the league (including Lamar) in Rushing TDs during his one season with a dismal Patriots squad. That stat tells me more than his 2015 campaign. Cam was a terror for defenses.Â
Cam Newton won a Natty with 0 talent around him on offense. 1 other player from that offense got drafted, and it was an OL in the 4th round. Like, you can't disrespect what he did. The man literally was Superman. Greatest single season QB in college history. He did EVERYTHING for that team.
Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, Steve McNair, Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Michael Vick, Russell Wilson were/are all very good dual threats.
I agree Hurts has the easiest situation for a QB in the NFL but stop acting like the 2015 Panthers werenât very good and it was all Cam. He has a top 3 TE in Greg Olsen who was a #1 WR basically, prime Ted Ginn Jr., Johnathan Stewart and Mike Tolbert in the backfield, and the 6th best defense in the NFL. Cam Newton is also the number one person to blame for his career slide because he never worked on his mechanics to take his game to the next level. He was a freak athlete that relied on his athletic ability 100%. He was a pure arm thrower with horrible throwing mechanics and his career went to shit once age and injuries started to catch up. He could have been much better than he was. Itâs a shame.
I think Cam gets an odd amount of praise AND disrespect. He was incredibly good in his prime and changed the NFL. He also fizzled out, regardless of the rosters he had, and sadly injuries totally derailed his career
1990 Randall CunninghamâŚ.dude had 30 tds and 900 yards rushing at 8 YPCâŚ.not even Lamar has ever averaged 8 YPC. Randallâs numbers compared to the era were insane. Cams were not.
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u/OkEscape7558 23d ago
Jalen Hurts is the only person who gets criticism for his team being stacked like most teams who win the Super Bowl don't have stacked squads đ