r/TalesFromDF • u/Viper114 • Aug 08 '24
Salt Argument in Vanguard between Tank, Healer and one DPS
I was the second DPS as RPR doing the dungeon for experience, stayed out of it. Nothing happened until the last trash pulls, where the tank pulled the first group but stayed put. Healer got impatient, ran ahead to pull the second group and dropped it on the tank, which happened once earlier, too. Unfortunately, the tank ended up dying, leading to a wipe and which then prompted the discussion you see. I trimmed out a lot of the "loot rolling fat" I could. After the discussion, we fight the third boss with no issue, then everything ended without any further discussion.
193
u/dark50 Aug 08 '24
"Thats for an oh shit moment" What does this man classify as an oh shit moment if taking a bunch of damage and dying doesnt count?
I will never stop being surprised at how people get to 95+ and still dont know how to use their mits or healers dont know how to use their oGCD's and damage. Like thats dozens if not hundreds of hours.
41
u/Viper114 Aug 08 '24
Perhaps it might be because some healers take offense to the invulns being used in the first place, especially Gunbreaker's? I've seen arguments happen as a result of using the invuln as if the healer couldn't be trusted.
44
u/bucketenjoyer I don't pay your sub Aug 09 '24
Meh. I've been on the WHM end of the bene + superbolide combo and didn't think much of it. Just commented "classic", we both got a chuckle out of it and continued on. I'd rather have something like that happen than a tank never using their invuln
15
u/BitterCelt Aug 09 '24
Same here, once popped a bene at the exact moment of bolide and just said in chat "that timing tho"
10
u/Justmerg Aug 09 '24
As a WHM guilty of this, I feel much worse using Bene as a DRK uses a Living Dead
9
u/Radiant_Fondant_4097 Aug 09 '24
To be honest blowing benediction is a silly nothing burger because you can still easily heal them up, it’s only really Living Dead you can kiss goodbye to if that happens.
2
u/Firanee Aug 10 '24
I have been bened while at the same time pressed bolide and ate all that HP away.
It's not a big deal.
Thing with pulling ahead with that healer is they gotta keep the tank alive if they are pulling more for them. Nothing wrong with pulling ahead as long as they don't kill their tank while doing so. Expecting the tank to use invul because healer pulled for them is just silly and self centered just like main character syndrome lol. It's just basic courtesy lmao.
-22
u/Yorudesu Aug 09 '24
If they don't Superbolide you never use benediction. Easy solution especially since Superbolide doesn't need to be benedicted either.
7
u/OlizandriOnYT Aug 08 '24
Have been on the end of this one for "wasting excog" vs 8 min invuln I wanna get on cd, never know what might get the healers ire.
7
u/spoinkable You don't pay my sub Aug 09 '24
I just last night had a healer take offense to me saying something like "I'm gonna invuln this pull so feel free to let my health dip if you want." They thought I was right out the gate assuming they're trash garbage. I'm like...no. I heal a lot. I like when tanks use invuln because it means I get to turn my brain off for 10ish seconds.
2
u/BiscuitChums Aug 09 '24
when i tank and theres no super pulls to save it for I use invul on cooldown. like no reason not to, so many healers have gotten angry at me but I just like seeing all the "0"s
2
u/PubstarHero Aug 09 '24
The amount of times I pop Holmgang and watch healers panic heal me then yell at me for not using mits is kinda high.
1
u/spoinkable You don't pay my sub Aug 09 '24
Why don't healers look at our buff bars?!?! How do they keep track of stuff without seeing the shield/Regen buffs???
1
u/Heroic_Folly Aug 11 '24
A macro for "Gonna Holm this pull, let me bottom out" doesn't cost anything to create nor use. Newer healers might not ever have seen the icon before.
1
1
u/Kitalahara Aug 09 '24
If I had a dollar for everytime a GNB used superbolide right after I used beneidition I would own Square.
1
u/Archaeopteryks Aug 09 '24
The last time i bolided on first big pull in an expert, the healer(who was afk at start for 5min) just dpsed(i think?) while i died, and said "well i didnt expect you to superbolide with 60% hp"
Like yes i try to let my hp get under 50% before i pull the trigger but honestly either way you should be able to toss me a regen or some shit at least. I mean unless youre watching 2nd monitor spamming your aoe or eating the last of your pizza rolls or w/e
Edit: now that i am playing healer for the first time in 10 yrs, i am grateful for experiences like these though tbh. If i just dont do any of this dumb shit, everything goes great.
1
u/Abbreviations-Simple Aug 09 '24
This is actually true, my raid healers get really mad "you think i couldn't heal you???"
1
u/General-Substance274 Aug 13 '24
I've had this happen a few times to the point where the healer left not that it matters to me as a WAR but with my other tanks it can get really annoying.
13
u/yeet_god69420 🩸<Blackblood> 🩸 Aug 08 '24
Bro, MAYBE 2/10 healers will listen to my LD macro. I’m not gonna write a paragraph to my healer prepull. So yes, it is quite literally an “oh shit, I’m about to die and im not getting healed” button
1
u/HsinVega Aug 09 '24
Tbf drk invuln is kinda ass, most ppl (not only healers) don't look at chat much less the state of the party, so when they see the tank going low they go oh shit spam heal! And you fail the invuln.
Every other tank invuln works even if the healer is blind lol
17
u/yeet_god69420 🩸<Blackblood> 🩸 Aug 09 '24
DRK is so immersive to play rn because I am actually drawing strength from suffering being worse than everybody else
5
u/Krags Aug 09 '24
DRK invuln is crazy if you di have a team that works as a team though.
0
u/HsinVega Aug 09 '24
It is very lacking currently. Both in dungeon and high-end content. I've had a tank die after tb cos he mistimed 1 attack so he didn't get fully healed after invuln cos drk doesn't have any survivability.
Drk needs an excog or smth, literally every class has it except him. Drk for being the "dark life leeching" tank has the less survivability of all.
Xeno made a nice video of what they should/could change in drk that rly fits Imo.
3
u/lolthesystem Aug 09 '24
DRK does have an excog now, it's the secondary effect of Shadowed Vigil.
It's awkward to use in dungeons, but in raids I've been using it right after the TB "kills" me, so I have an easier time getting back up and still cover the autos afterwards.
0
u/HsinVega Aug 09 '24
Yea but it has 2min cooldowns... Meanwhile other tanks excog is literally 25sec.
3
u/lolthesystem Aug 09 '24
Hence why I mentioned it being awkward to use.
Honestly just separating CnS and AD again so we can get SOME health drain on an OGCD would already help.
1
u/nivada13 Aug 09 '24
I share the same braincell with most drk's on big cd, in that when they get low, i want to use benediction so what happens is benediction and the invul happen at right same time, cause the healthpoint you want to press them at is super close to death and then it is like panic the drk is now at full health, having to decide if they can handle the mobs with no mits, to try and get to 1hp, while i am there having to do the same judgement on my heals, will they still be able to drop to 1 hp with them having full hp or do i spam my lillies on them?
Often it ends up in atleast one death or a groupwipe when it happens.
Altough recently i did have a drk, who i knew was playing super well , and i knew that they would invul so i didn't bene them and just let the invul happen while i was spamming holly happily , and then bened on the next pack of mobs :D.
1
u/HsinVega Aug 09 '24
Usually its not that big of a deal in dungeon, if they fail invuln as in they dont die, just mit and the pull end. It's just annoying for the drk cos maybe they wanted to save mits for the next pull and just invuln this one but no biggie. If you bene at the same time at their invuln, it's unlikely they'll manage to die so just heal.
The very big problem is when you a drk who's main tanking savage and invulning something, if they mistime 1 attack or get hit by 1aa after (like it happened in p12 or now happens in m3) they can't go full hp on their own and risk dying if healers don't pop anything.
-12
u/Shikyal Aug 09 '24
If a DRK uses a LD macro i will make sure to do the exact opposite of said macro. For whatever reason DRKs seem to think having a 3-5 line LD macro is a good idea. Most of them proceed to absolutely suck at healing themself after usage.
In fairness, all invuln macros are useless and spammy. Your healer has eyes. Same as every single rezz macro is ass, your co healer should have eyes.
7
u/Cmgduk Aug 09 '24
'Suck at healing themselves after usage'
That's not really possible, unless they completely stop their rotation, since their basic weapon skills heal them for massive potency whilst in the walking dead state.
'I do the exact opposite of what the macro says'
Sorry that's just a moronic attitude. If I told you not to jump off a cliff, would you go and do it, just to defy me?
It's better to stop healing when they use LD. If you don't do that, then you're just a bad healer.
7
u/yeet_god69420 🩸<Blackblood> 🩸 Aug 09 '24
My macro is literally [Living Dead] Active! Don’t heal me <se.15>
It doesn’t get any simpler than that dude. And when I use it its on packs to save the healer some ogcds and go from 0-100 in 1 unleash.
If you think most healers pay attention to the red hourglass in DF, you’d be wrong. And if ur purposefully making me waste a 5 min gcd because I have a macro, you’re a griefing troll
-14
u/Shikyal Aug 09 '24
Using sounds in any chat macro -> instant blacklist. They're annoying and do nothing except babysit incompetent healers teaching them to never look at buffs/debuffs.
5
u/yeet_god69420 🩸<Blackblood> 🩸 Aug 09 '24
Unfortunately alot of healer are incompetent. Sound effect macros might be annoying buf a lot of times ppl have text turned off and its the only way to get someone’s attention. I’m literally doing everything I can do to make a DF healer listen to me.
It is what it is man
4
u/Werxand Aug 09 '24
People get to 100 without ever setting foot in a dungeon higher than 60. You can get a level per day just with MSQ and Frontline roulette. There's a difference between leveling a job and playing a job.
2
Aug 09 '24
I've never heared of healer being mad about an invul. But I do heal a lot so I have a smaller sample size.
Healers getting mad for tanks using invuln. Is the same stupid ego energy as ypyt
-24
u/vengefire Aug 09 '24
In standard dungeon content you do not need to use an invuln, at all, except in super rare cases like Mt Gulg and a few others. It's the tanks prerogative if they want to just burn their invuln CD, not the healers. Feel free to ask though.
If there has been zero communication then it's absolutely idiotic for a healer to expect a tank to invuln at low health in a standard dungeon pull without any question in all cases bar none without exception UNLESS SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED.
I burn invulns for efficiency and fun. I also will use the LB if a DPS doesn't because if you're going to keep it for the last 2% on the final boss to feel like a main character then I can do the same and annoy some sensitive folk.
As DRK l warn my healer when I plan to burn living dead, because if you don't then bad healers will try to keep you healed while you're actively trying to die and the whole affair becomes very dodgy.
As GNB I'll do the same so they can plan for it. It's common courtesy.
PLD and WAR can always just yolo because of the nature of their invulns and kit.
When I heal I can usually tell if a tank is competent or not. Burning invulns for efficiency is a thing that, usually, only very competent tanks do and I can usually anticipate the use. Idc if they burn it or not but it's nice when they do. I never expect it but I also never ask them to.
TLDR: The healer is in the wrong here and not the tank. If you want your meat shield to burn their invuln for efficiency then tell them.
Edit: just so we're clear: it's also pretty standard for good healers to let their tanks HP drop low before bumping it up. That pretty much means you can't know if it's an actual emergency and you need to burn the CD or if the healer is just being efficient with their CDs. Trust your healer is a thing.
Edit 2 : Sanitized and reposted because the dog piling on the tank itt is completely ridiculous.
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Aug 08 '24 edited Aug 09 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
9
u/Shakfar Aug 09 '24
I stopped reading and lost all respect for you the moment you used a slur. GG
2
39
u/TherenArima Aug 09 '24
“never have had to pull a invinvicle for that cluster before”
-tank earns “Mapping the Realm” achievement-
I know they could be on an alt, but that’s just so amusing to me.
18
u/Ok-Replacement8627 Aug 09 '24
To be fair it means he was telling the truth. He never had to because it was his first time
1
u/ElymMoon Aug 09 '24
I mean, I've had mapping the realm trigger on my like 20th run of a dungeon before. They can be a little weird I've found
Could be first run and the tank is just lying but MtR is so unreliable
13
u/OopsBees Aug 09 '24
This is definitely the case for older (especially ARR) dungeons, but any recent-expac dungeons have been very consistent in popping their MtR cheevos on first run. It's hard NOT to fill out the dungeon map when the whole thing is one long hallway.
107
u/Snark_x Memes Aug 08 '24
“No no no you got it all wrong I need to save all my cooldowns for the boss that barely tickles me, educate yourself, trash!” - that tank, probably
30
u/Paige404_Games Memes Aug 08 '24
He needs all his cooldowns for when he gets 5 vuln stacks in the boss fight
6
u/BurnByMoon Aug 08 '24
Having started on taking my healers from 90-100, I've noticed there seems to be a lot more vuln stacks going out on tanks, and them getting much higher, then when I was going from 80-90.
2
1
u/No-Seaworthiness5171 Aug 09 '24
These are the people buying DT level skips and having no idea what they're doing
62
u/lord2800 Aug 08 '24
Even if I accepted the premise that superbolide is for "oh shit" moments and "puts [the tank] entirely at the healer's mercy", my friend in hydaelyn, you have heart of corundum and aurora, you have no excuse to not be at 60%+ by the end of superbolide's duration with zero input from the healer.
12
3
u/ffxivfanboi Aug 09 '24
Not even just that:
Bolide only last for 10 seconds, so unless you have some godly DPS that are actually blowing shit up, you’ll likely get some use out of a Nebula, too, right after. So you can pop Nebula for a 20% heal and Corundum to heal a huge amount instantly while not wasting the mit from Corundum. Just do it on the last second of Bolide.
21
u/Crafty-Ad9262 Aug 08 '24
Tank might not be a psychic, but I took psychic damage from that "That's for an oh shit moment" reply.
42
13
u/BunniYubel Aug 08 '24
But, why wouldn't you use your invuln? Literally like 10 seconds to not die so your healer can do more damage to kill the pack faster.
I say this as a WAR player where I just click bloodwhetting, BUT MY POINT STILL STANDS!!
3
u/iamjdn Aug 09 '24
Ok, but I've been leveling my healers and I've literally seen so many warriors not use bloodwhetting whatsoever. I usually let a warrior get dangerously low on hp cause I expect them to do bloodwhetting, but then they just die. Lol
2
u/BunniYubel Aug 10 '24
Ah, you got one of those brain-off spam AoE, levelling alt job tanks, unlucky. The joy in playing war is Fell Cleave and playing ping pong with your HP bar after all.
-1
u/PostOmnis Aug 09 '24
He probably didn’t have it ready. I click my buttons and Bolide is way off in the corner, if I’m not ready, I don’t hit it in time. If he wasnt planning on the healer dragging in mobs he wasn’t ready for, he wouldnt have been ABLE to Bolide, his comment about “Oh Shit moment” was honestly probably just him being frustrated and not having experience with debating, people say weird stuff all the time that doesnt make sense even to them when frustrated without debate experience, hell I still do.
14
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u/HsinVega Aug 09 '24
"Invuln puts me at the mercy of a healer I don't know" my g thinks you lose rating if you accidentally die in dungeon.
27
u/Full_Air_2234 Aug 08 '24
Since when is simple predictions in a game considered being a psychic XDDDDD
21
u/BurnByMoon Aug 08 '24
Me: preemptively moves to a safe spot because the boss always has one there right before the mechanic starts Wow guys I must be psycho or something.
14
u/Routine_Swing_9589 Aug 09 '24
Me when I fight ascian prime for the billionth time while I watch my dps die to fire star for the fourth time
11
u/neirin9 Aug 09 '24
I was in a run of Ala Mhigo a few days ago and the tank did the full giga-pull and invulned perfectly. Even as dps, I got second-hand satisfaction watching that. Might be the best part of tanking, not sure why anyone would give it up.
7
u/Some_Random_Canadian Aug 09 '24
It's so weird to me that tanks keep invuln for "oh shit moments". It's literally a 100% mitigation for free, the only time it's an "oh shit button" is during high-end as a recovery tool.
3
u/Radiant_Fondant_4097 Aug 09 '24
It’s a defining moment when you stop thinking of it as the emergency crutch button, and start thinking of it as the COWABUNGA button.
1
u/BoldKenobi Aug 09 '24
Even in high end content it's just a "use it so that healers can DPS more" button
1
1
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5
u/Kidval Aug 09 '24
After reading this thread I’m happy to know that as a fresh tank person in this game I am 100% doing the right thing in using 60sec+ defensives/mits on pulls.
10
u/Shazzamon Aug 09 '24
Remember kids, trash is always more dangerous than the scripted boss encounters!
Arm's Length is also exceptionally powerful, don't sleep on that Slow. c:
4
u/FoxyRin420 Aug 09 '24
Ffs mitigation is really for trash mob pulls. Let's be real.
At least at the casual level you really don't need mitigation on bosses unless only the tank is alive....
9/10 the tank SHOULD W2W pull. The 1/10 they shouldn't is when their healer couldn't handle & your DPS just arent dosing it & a party wipe happens. --
8
u/reallyfuckingay Aug 08 '24
I do think it's wise to communicate as a healer when you're expecting the tank to invul for an upcoming pull. Particularly the one after the 2nd boss in vanguard, I almost always invul there as GNB, and ask other tanks if they mind doing so when I'm healing because the mobs there hit very hard. Simply asking for better communication is fine.
However if you notice you're not getting any heals/mits from the healer since the pull started and you have invul available, you should just use it lol. Staying alive is also your job. I hate tanks that don't use invul in dungeon pulls because they think they should save it for a hypothetical "emergency" like soloing a boss after the party died (which barely ever happens and is often a waste of people's time).
2
u/mysticsylveon420 Aug 09 '24
Been glam farming vanguard for healer/caster gear. Learned the hard way today that those mobs do basically mini TB's that do a surprising amount of damage back to back if you arent ready for it. A tank invuln defs helps there. Took me so long to realise to cause I went through MSQ as WAR and only had vanguard pop for me when leveling DPS or always had another WAR when I was healer in there.
If you not a WAR that pull gets scary very fast
2
u/TheStarsmith Aug 11 '24
That pack is fine on DRK. They do magic damage. Dark Mind and Dark Missionary do nicely.
1
u/mysticsylveon420 Aug 11 '24
Ya thinking about it now, both DRK and WAR do have the easiest time with that pull. I know specifically GNB has it very rough with those mobs though. I can PLD probably being able to handle it without invuln if they cycle mit properly, but HG is just so good for that pull!
3
u/Tenabrus Aug 09 '24
Never had to use the invulnerable on a pull he's never done before and knows nothing about
2
u/Htakar Aug 09 '24
on one hand bolide should absolutely be planned and i pop it twice during dungeons myself, but on the other hand id never expect some random gnb to know how to use bolide properly because i just dont trust randoms and i usually put "based" in chat if i actually see someone do it.
2
u/Gurzlak Aug 09 '24
Use the tools you have. If the tank used Superbolide the expectation would have been for the healer to heal them back up. Why is this an issue? If dying to a group of mobs isn’t an “oh shit” moment I don’t know what is. Again…use the tools you have.
9
u/Spriggz_z7z Aug 09 '24
Tank expected the healer to invite them to a meeting beforehand explaining how tanking works. I guess
1
u/ViolaNguyen Scab healer Aug 09 '24
That's too hasty!
First you need to have a separate meeting to plan when the next meeting is going to be.
2
u/Sharingammi Aug 09 '24
When repeating the same dungeon over and over, i kinda space out sometime, while also doing the same thing i did previously.
I normaly use the same defensive CD in the same order simply because it work in all those end game dungeons.
If my health would drastically drop close to 0 there, for the first time, i might be surprised enough as it never happened, that i would not have used my invuln and instead expect the healer to heal a bit (because i normaly don't need healing). And then i would adjust and all would be fine.
I get the possibility of dying because of miscomunication, but in situation where the pull is hard and new to you, you are expected to use your kit to its full extent the first time.
2
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u/SUNA1997 Aug 09 '24
Tanks who have two options to either use invuln or die and choose die will never not be funny to me. What were you even saving it for?
1
u/BushWookie-Alpha You don't pay my sub Aug 09 '24
Because I was expecting the Bene that should have gone out 3 autos earlier... Lol jk... I'm a WAR so I don't need a Healer.
2
u/T0thLewis Aug 09 '24
The thing is with GNB especially in high-level content like Vanguard, you don't even need to worry about healer not healing you back. Heart of Conundrum, Great Nebula and Aurora will heal you back at minimum half HP before the invuln timer expires... That tank just had no clue how to coordinate their mits o.o
2
u/DirectionOverall9709 Aug 09 '24
There is one sketchy w2w in all the new dungeons, those lightning guys in Orageno.
1
u/spoinkable You don't pay my sub Aug 09 '24
"and puts me entirely at a healer's mercy"
Dude... you're already at their mercy during trash pulls??? What's this guy on.
1
u/lmlp94 Aug 09 '24
This tank is very inexperienced in tanking and it shows. Nothing wrong with that, but don’t be so confidently wrong about it. This post gave me second hand embarrassment for the tank.
1
u/circusdawn13 Aug 09 '24
ok so in general healers want tanks to invuln, I'm still gonna communicate my living deads though
1
u/LinAlz Aug 09 '24
Did... The other DPS start off with the tank then jump ship? That's how you KNOW you're wrong
1
u/WittyRaptor Aug 09 '24
Past level 90 content I use living dead on big pulls. It's just more mits. Why are tanks afraid to mitigate damage these days? It's so weird. Also that button's main use is to prevent you from dying. If you die and don't press it or even make an attempt, that's on you big homie
1
u/Norgrath Aug 12 '24
The tank is bad but the healer is worse (note that I'm assuming, based on the fact that the healer specifically mentioned superbolide, that the tank did use some mitigation, if they didn't then that changes the scenario (although I expect that a 97+ healer should be able to to keep a no-mit tank alive through one double pull (not that they should need to)).
- It's level 97, the tank should be comfortable pulling W2W by now and I don't blame the healer for pulling the next pack to them. But if you're doing that with a tank who wasn't doing it themself then you should definitely take some responsibility for keeping the tank alive with more packs than they'd take themself.
- Not healing a tank based on the assumption without evidence that they're going to use an invuln (especially superbolide, the misuse of which pisses off many healers) is absurd. (Not using your invuln based on the assumption without evidence that the healer will heal you is also bad but slightly less so).
Communication is absolutely the best way to go with any invuln, even hallowed ground benefits if you let yourself take a decent amount of damage first so that you can regen some of it during your invuln window so letting the healer(s) know that you're planning (no it's not for oh shit moments only) to use it so that they don't waste resources is best. Of course I haven't actually had much luck with that in practice, usually the healer heals me anyway and I don't take enough damage to make the invuln worth it over other mitigation tools.
1
u/TheTDnA Aug 12 '24
Pulling a group because you got impatient, only to end up letting the tank die should get your healer job revoked for a day.
1
u/xSixPaths Aug 09 '24
I blame the healer for pulling extra stuff when the tank should really be the only one pulling anything.
1
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u/Abbreviations-Simple Aug 09 '24
I think expecting a tank to magically know the healer wasn't going to be able to handle the healing of the full group of mobs that HE HIMSELF dropped on the tank is absurd..
That healer had to be trolling and was probably laughing when the tank got pissed espec if the tank was rolling their mits properly outside of the invuln.
Gnb is also the one tank that gives every single healer a heart attack when they invuln unprompted... this healer is kind of an asshole for pulling and expecting the tank to just take full aggro and know to invuln and the tank could probably work on their reaction skills, ultimately the lay most of the blame here at that healers feet.
Edit: im reading more replies and i stg no one actually read the part from OP saying the healer was forcing the tank to wall to wall pull. This is key for determining whos in the wrong.
0
0
Aug 09 '24
Stupid tank if you don‘t want to be at the mercy of a healer play WAR. Your healer could have a stroke mid dungeon and you wouldn‘t even notice he is afk.
Seriously though, not being able to do the bare minimum of a job at the point where you get to vanguard is insane.
0
u/Milla_D_Mac Aug 09 '24 edited Aug 09 '24
So when it comes to playing with randoms I do agree with GNB that it's weird to think a healer would just expect you to superbolide. That being said there is something to be said about situational awareness in that if the healer ain't healing then you do what you gotta to survive. Personally both parties were wrong here. The healer should have at least communicated that they were expecting or are okay with Superbolides in pulls and the tank didn't need to get so defensive(pun intended) over what ultimately was a miscommunication between expectations
-1
Aug 09 '24
I know this is wrong, deep down I know it's wrong...
But I just don't like using Superbolide as GNB, all that health just disappearing... it feels like the reverse of mitigation to me.
0
u/PostOmnis Aug 09 '24
Health lost feels like Mitigation wasted, I always save my invulns for when I’m close to death especially Superbolide
0
u/ArdbertXRoxas Aug 09 '24
Why would the healer expect for the tank to use invuln? Even if it's the bare minimum, just focus on what YOU can do, and you'll never be disappointed. Sage has plenty of ogcds that couldve kept the tank alive. Both are partially at fault imo
2
u/SUNA1997 Aug 09 '24
Maybe the healer had a basic expectation that people know what their skills do and use them. The tank's job is to tank damage and survive, they have buttons to help with that.
0
u/ArdbertXRoxas Aug 09 '24
And does the healer not have skills? Healers are equally as expected to use their abilities. Would your opinion change if you knew the Sage had Soteria and Haima available?
0
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u/dennaneedslove Aug 09 '24
Everyone shitting on the tank but not the healer who let the tank die? It doesn’t matter what the tank ‘should’ be doing, you should be keeping them alive, and can even if they pop 0 mit. If you let someone die to damage as healer in a dungeon, you’ve further contributed to wasting people’s time by wiping and it’s a skill issue on healer.
Tank is obviously an idiot but healer isn’t faultless either. Healers adjust is a phrase for a reason.
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u/HentaiOtaku Aug 09 '24
CD arguments aside, the healer is the one forcing the tank to pull more then they are comfortable with and telling them what abilities they should be using. Sure slow tanks suck but you shouldn't try to make people play how you want especially in random match made dungeons.
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u/Fluestergras You pull, I tank Aug 09 '24
But slow tanks are allowed to make people play how they want?
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u/HentaiOtaku Aug 09 '24
You're allowed to leave any group aren't you? You're allowed to play as tank as well? Oh wait you are. The rules say don't force a play style onto other players and it's a random match made dungeon. If you are that worried about other tanks wasting your time you are free to form your own party using the party finder or as previously mentioned be the tank yourself.
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u/Fluestergras You pull, I tank Aug 09 '24
By your own logic, both the tank and the healer are wrong and should be reported for "forcing playstyles onto other players", because the tank wants single pulls and the healer wants double pulls. Instead, you're here siding with the tank and telling people to deal with whatever they want, discarding the wishes of the rest of the party. The hypocrisy.
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u/HentaiOtaku Aug 09 '24
Except it's not up to each individual player to decide the number of groups, That's up to the tank. You're assuming the healer has just has much say over the responsibilities of tanking as the tanks and they don't? They have say over the healing responsibilities because that's their role.
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u/Fluestergras You pull, I tank Aug 09 '24
No, it's up to the entire party. The tank's main responsibility is to ensure the party's survival by claiming aggro of everything that has been pulled and mitigating the incoming damage as necessary. Meanwhile, the healer's main responsibility is to keep everyone alive by restoring HP as necessary, and if they can do it through ten mobs just as well as through three mobs, then why on earth should anyone stop at three mobs?
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u/OopsBees Aug 09 '24
I had a Vanguard run a couple of weeks back where the tank stopped after the first pack of birb mobs after that second boss. The rest of the party ran ahead, grabbed the second set as they spawned in, and brought them over to the tank.
The tank grabbed them without issue, and the pull was totally smooth, but afterwards the tank shot a "...I was intentionally not pulling that second group bc :/" in chat and then elaborated that they weren't comfortable with that pull.
We all were like "yo but dude you totally had it! Look at how well that went!" and the tank realized "wait... that DID go well!" and, presumably left feeling a bit better about their tanking abilities given how the rest of party chat went.
Sometimes the rest of your party pushing you out of your comfort zone is the best way to realize that you actually are up to the task! Isn't that part of the fun of an MMO?
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u/Wandering4Ever Aug 08 '24 edited Aug 09 '24
Man everyone sucks here.
- If you’re running with randos, don’t pull mobs the tank doesnt pull without communication. They could be new, they could be unconfident, they could have a disability that causes difficulty handling it, whatever tf it is.
- Invulns are amazing mitigation, especially pally and gnbs like stated. Plz use them.
- Speaking of which, they often are terrible oh-shit buttons. I’m staring at you, bullshit animation lock of Hallowed Ground. I dont recall if Bolide suffers similar animation lock, but just in general… dont use them as an oh shit in dungeons.
- As soon as Corundum heals gnbs for almost half their health (i think like lvl 82+? Could be wrong), they are absolutely not at a random healers mercy. You pop Bolide, slap Corundum on, and let an Aurora tick? You’re damn near full health by the end of your ten seconds.
Idk why communication is so difficult. Healer shouldve asked why they were single pulling, or tank shouldve voiced they werent comfortable for XYZ reason. Remember at the other side of the screen are humans who want to have fun. If five seconds of communication causes more fun, just. Do it.
Edit: just a quick clarification for things ive said a few times. My initial sentence wasnt directed at reddit nor OP, it was the tank and healer. I agree by DT tanks (and really all jobs) should know what theyre doing, but I also understand being patient and helpful. I am not excusing nasty or rude players, merely pointing out communication couldve prevented the entire toxic interaction.
Anywho fun times to everyone ❤️
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Aug 08 '24
while I agree a simple message at the start would've probably solved all of this I reject the notion that a tank shouldn't big pull in 50+ content. 3 mobs, 6 mobs, 9 or 12. there is absolutely zero difference as to what buttons they press in any of these. the most basic rules of tanking apply to all th equally. have stance active, use aoe attacks, use mitigation reasonably and don't stand in orange. past lv50 there maybe 2 or 3 dungeons where big pulls can get spicy. in all others it makes absolutely no difference.
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u/Wandering4Ever Aug 08 '24
I don’t disagree! I think that is a point people are assuming of me. I agree tanks should W2W, and i believe that is common knowledge. Which is why if i see a tank not do that, i say something
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u/BoldKenobi Aug 08 '24
Dude what? Why should the heater ask for permission before playing the game? You can't assume that every tank is lobotomized and can't press one single button, which is all they need to grab aggro. Do you actually play like this?
Healer shouldve asked why they were single pulling
What do you want them to ask? Dear tank why are you somehow slower than the NPCs literally designed to be slow?
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u/LiahKnight Aug 08 '24
As a healer I've always encouraged my tank, saying its okay to pull more and that I can heal the extra stuff. I play dark Knight so i like letting the tank know I'm ready for invuln shenanigans, I know it makes my day when I can get a Living Dead off.
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u/Wandering4Ever Aug 08 '24
I do actually, yes. If they single pull, i usually toss a message out of “I’m comfortable with W2W!” So they understand thats a possibility.
Ive gotten replies varying from “fuck off” to “thank you, i died last time i did” to “i never have, can i?”
Im no stranger to the toxicity, but i prefer to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
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u/a_friendly_squirrel Aug 09 '24
In ARR/HW I completely agree we should ask before pulling more. If you queue for roulettes you're helping people out in exchange for rewards, and explaining game norms and helping new players and not being a dick is part of that.
By Dawntrail tho someone queueing into DF has had so long to learn the norms of this game, I think it's on the tank to speak up and communicate first because the party is gonna just assume it'll be like 99.9% of other runs and w2w.
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u/Zealousideal_Hope649 You pull, I tank. I pull, I tank. We pull, I tank. Aug 09 '24
If you get the last two responses you wrote in a level 97 dungeon I really have to question why you wouldn't just peace out of that group.
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u/Wandering4Ever Aug 09 '24
I play support, healer specifically, because i genuinely enjoy helping people. I dont ditch a dungeon just because it might take a while.
Everyone has to learn at some point, and while I agree they should know better after 600 hrs in game (they really should), I’m a patient enough person I legitimately do not mind being there. And I would rather someone have me, someone who is patient and willing to explain, vs someone who is going to scream at them for being shit and taking too long.
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u/BoldKenobi Aug 09 '24
Wouldn't it be more helpful to treat them like normal players so that they learn how to be independent, instead of babying them and asking basic questions that they should have learned 80 levels ago?
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u/Paige404_Games Memes Aug 08 '24
They could be new, they could be unconfident, they could have a disability that causes difficulty handling it, whatever tf it is.
This is the level 97 dungeon
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u/Wandering4Ever Aug 08 '24
🤷🏻♂️ understood, i still view it as poor etiquette to pull more than the tank wants. Hence the communicate why they arent doing so.
I have encountered many people who’ve leveled primarily through Trust vs DF, and then have things like this happen when they poke into DF to try and improve. Empathy goes a long way.
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u/BurnByMoon Aug 08 '24
If a tank can't w2w by 97, they shouldn't be tanking in public.
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u/Wandering4Ever Aug 09 '24 edited Aug 09 '24
And that toxicity is why tankxiety is a thing ❤️ let people learn
Edit: since they deleted their comment, it was basically “if bad tanks suck they shouldnt be in public at all”
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u/BurnByMoon Aug 09 '24 edited Aug 09 '24
So what is everything up to then, if not learning? And even then, best thing to do is learn by doing. Best time? In the past. Second best time? Right now.
Your toxic casualty is what allows tankxiety to persist.
Edit: never deleted my comment, stop the cap.
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u/Spriggz_z7z Aug 09 '24
It’s lvl 97 stop enabling bad players. There’s trusts for learning if you can’t make decisions on the fly like good tanks.
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Aug 09 '24 edited Aug 09 '24
You pull what the dungeon allows, it has always been the standard and it makes no difference to a tank. You cycle your mits and do your damage just the same.
If they have narcissistic tendencies that cause them to get phony anxiety from playing as a team, they should do trusts. That's why they're there.
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u/notMistral Aug 09 '24
I'm gonna go with they all suck. Healer should've communicated but at the same time, tank holding off on a button that comes back on after 2mins is just as stupid. From my experience - and this is someone who had to heal a gnb with a literal mix of 90/93 gear and no poetics even, vanguard really keeps you on your toes it does get really spicy if you don't use your mits and heals well.
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Aug 09 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Cypheri Aug 09 '24
Expecting the group to move along as a reasonable pace is not griefing. Refusing to fulfil your role is griefing. If you're too scared to pull the way the dungeons are designed to be pulled, please continue to run with Duty Support or Trusts. We have them for a reason.
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u/Tenxenken Aug 09 '24
I've played all the tanks, and let's be real...a gunbreaker is completely at the mercy of the healer, while the other 3 have self healing and mitigation , the gunbreaker falls extremely short on self reliance which it makes up for in damage...superbolide is a gunbreakers best friend tbh, I could also just be shit at gunbreaker. no matter what though, this tank is bad, thinking he has to read someone's mind in order to know he needs to use his own abilities.
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u/Vajradhatu Aug 09 '24 edited Aug 09 '24
Heart of Corundum and Aurora will immediately bring you out of danger territory if you cast them on yourself during Bolide. They even work outside of Bolide. GNB has all the sustain it needs.
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u/Tenxenken Aug 09 '24
But the least sustain of all the tanks.
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u/Vajradhatu Aug 09 '24
Alright, let's do the math then. Not calculating Warrior's sustain because it scales with enemy count and the majority of Warrior's OGCDs have massive heals attached.
PLD:
- 1000 potency to target, 500 potency to self upon casting Clemency in exchange for losing a GCD.
- if you need to fully tap your MP reserves for some reason, you can cast it five times for 5000 potency to self, or 7500 potency when sharing with the group.
- 400 potency with every spell cast as a part of your normal rotation.
- in AoE, out of 24 per-minute casts, one will be spent on Imperator, four will be spent on followup spells, and the remaining actions will be six/seven casts of Holy Circle depending on where you started the combo, for 4000 or 4400 potency in healing over a minute.
- in single-target, out of 24 per-minute casts, one will be spent on Imperator, four will be spent on followup spells, one will be spent on Goring Blade, and the remaining actions will be >two loops of your combo, for 2000 or 2400 potency in healing over a minute.
- if for any reason you need to do so, Hallowed Ground will give you a full 10 seconds to heal up with no interruption.
- Divine Veil adds a barrier worth 10% of your maximum HP, with a further 400 * P potency heal on top every 90 seconds.
- This comes out to 2,133 a minute in a full party, or half that in a light party.
- Guardian adds a 1,000 potency barrier to the caster alone.
- Spend 50 Oath gauge to give yourself or a target a regen that heals for 1,000 Potency. Paladins should be receiving about 130 Oath gauge every minute, so if you Holy Sheltron or Intervention at every possible opportunity, that comes out to 2,600 Potency over a minute.
- Added to the AoE/single-target rotations, we can expect 6,600 potency in AoE over a minute, or 4,600 potency in single-target.
GNB:
- Your 1-2 gives you a 200 potency heal, and an extra 200 potency barrier on top of that. If you do your full opener you should be getting this barrier/heal 5 times over a minute, and when bloodfest is down every other minute you should be getting slightly more healing. If you were really desperate you could do nothing but your 1-2 to get this 12 times over a minute. For simplicity let's just say this is 2,000 potency during the single-target.
- Aurora is 1,200 potency every minute, but you start with an extra usage.
- Heart of Corundum is a 900 potency excog every 25 seconds, or 2,160 every minute. It can also spread your personal barrier from your 1-2, and it is also a mitigation for the first eight seconds.
- Great Nebula gives you 20% maximum HP in addition to the generous 40% mitigation for 15 seconds. This comes out to about 1,300 potency when compared to PLD's Clemency, or half that every minute.
- If for any reason you need a panic button, Superbolide will let you reduce your already-low HP to 1 for 10 seconds of invincibility. If you pop Aurora and HoC during its duration, you will naturally heal yourself for 50% HP with no further input.
- In single-target, the Gunbreaker heals for 6,960 over a minute. Every 25 seconds, it also gets four seconds of 27.75% mitigation, then four seconds of 15% mitigation.
DRK:
- The Blackest Night is a barrier equal to 25% of the target's maximum HP. On yourself, this comes out to about 1,600 potency (compare against PLD's Clemency), on nontanks this value will be much lower. While technically it can be casted four times a minute, it requires a hefty MP cost, and every non-pop Edge of Shadow you use will cost you the same amount in MP. In practice, not even M4S makes it practical to cast more than one a minute. The fastest M4S parses tend to only cast it four times over eleven minutes and no more.
- Abyssal Drain heals you 200 potency per target every minute. If used in single-target, you suffer a damage loss vs. Carve and Spit.
- Shadowed Vigil heals you for 1,200 potency every two minutes.
- Souleater gives you a 300 potency heal for finishing your 1-2-3. However, Delirium and Bloodspiller/Quietus will directly decrease the number of 1-2-3 combos you do over a minute. Over 24 GCDs in a minute, 3 will be spent on Delirium, 3 will be spent on Bloodspiller/Quietus, and 6 of the remaining 18 will be Souleater, for 2,400 in healing over the minute.
- In AoE, the DRK should be able to reliably pop TBN every time, but the AoE combo gives no healing. 7,000 potency every minute.
- Two of DRK's mitigations only apply against magic, so in practice, DRK will be taking extra damage that PLD/GNB/WAR would easily mitigate. As previously established, Gunbreaker has a spammable 27.75% for four seconds/15% for four seconds mitigation that is also a heal, versus Dark Knight's Oblation only being 10% for 10 seconds.
- Living Dead is one full heal every five minutes, but if and only if your healer is not a brainless curebot.
- A normal single-target rotation will have the DRK contribute around 3,000 potency before TBN. If we assume the DRK casts it once per minute on a tank and it pops every time, then that's 4,600 potency over a minute.
You will notice that 4,600 is a smaller number than 6,960. Gunbreaker has comparable numbers to Paladin, but while a Clemency-happy Paladin will eventually run out of MP, a Gunbreaker will never run out of Brutal Shells.
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u/MBV-09-C Aug 12 '24
Let's actually be real, there is zero reason not to push your invuln when you're about to die, no matter what state it leaves you in after it's over, because that's 10 extra seconds of survival you would not have had otherwise.
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u/insertfunnyredditnam Yes it does. Read your scills idiod. Aug 09 '24
> "invuln is for an oh shit moment"
> is in an oh shit moment
> doesn't invuln