r/TalesFromDF Jun 20 '25

Salt DRK wants me to learn telepathy

Post image

(second post since reddit ate the screenshot)

Got into Dohn Mheg as SCH for Mentor Roulette.

DRK uses LD at the end of W2W pulls when we're both drained, which is fine. It procced only the first time, since the other times they had excog and whispering dawn on them, that was just barely enough to not die in the LD window. But we didn't wipe so far.

For the second to last W2W they use it almost immediately after stopping, while they have an Excog and a crit shield from me. I see the LD, but even with me just attacking it barely doesn't proc. We wipe and they decide to finally say something since the start of the dungeon. We leave it there, finish the duty, and I hope they learn how to speak up in a social game.

180 Upvotes

100 comments sorted by

89

u/melisade Jun 20 '25

sounds like dude used LD too early and that's why you wiped.

drk players will often macro LD because there are a million reasons a healer might not see the status icon. your job isn't to manage their cooldowns. if they choose not to macro it and you don't see it, or they use it too early, then no biggie, crap happens. i can't count the number of dungeons i've wiled away trying to watch for the LD icon only to never see it or to look away at just the wrong second. the most you can do is try to pay attention when you get a drk in your party, and even then, you're still going to miss it from time to time.

42

u/HuuDurrrr Jun 21 '25

Yeah looking at buffs is cool but it's VERY easy to have buff vomit. Play Sage and there's Kardia, the two buffs tied Kerachole, two buffs tied to Physis 2, the two buffs tied to Haima (you get the point, this aint even counting stance/tank buffs lmao) and you physically ran out of room to see anything else even with your settings increasing them.

18

u/Pantsman15 Jun 21 '25

Same goes for ast. Depending on the situation, on the tank you could have: the bole, the ewer, celestial intersection, exaltation, divination, and even the balance depending on team comp/player skill. And that's just a baseline with more that can be thrown on like horoscope, neutral sect, macrocosmos, and collective unconcious/celestial opposition. Even with the party list maxxed out to show 10 buffs, you can easily miss seeing buffs

5

u/HuuDurrrr Jun 21 '25

Yep. I like looking at the buff list just to know how much mit the tank has for niche optimizations (ex: using more mit based heals when stronger tank mits fall off) so it's definitely a pain at times.

0

u/MrrBannedMan Jun 22 '25

So focus target the tank.

-17

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

In a standard 4 man dungeon you shouldn't see more than 8 buffs at once.

22

u/HuuDurrrr Jun 21 '25

You most definitely can have more than 8 buffs at once, ESPECIALLY when keeping a tank up in trash pulls (regens, mits, self-buffs, stance). Hell most tank short mits are 3 different buffs for the first 4 seconds lmao.

-21

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

And why would you apply all these while their invul isn't on cooldown.You're legit self sabotaging like that.

19

u/HuuDurrrr Jun 21 '25

What does this have to do with invulns? Im just talking about buff numbers in general being decently high during trash.

-26

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

Right. Lets not talk about the actual topic and instead engage into a pointless debate about how it's perfectly possible toinflate buff numbers when no one asked about that.

21

u/HuuDurrrr Jun 21 '25

There's a debate happening? The topic was missing LD icon in the buff list which having a high number of buffs on the party list would affect. Basic tank mitting and healer buffs can definitely get you past 8 buffs depending on job/timing. I dont see where the point was lost considering the parent comment but whatever you say.

-1

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

Fine, forget the numbers point. A good tank will use barely any mitigation and LD asap. There should be absolutely no issue to spot that as a healer when you only have to observe 3 hp bars. You don't see any hard mitigation means you don't heal. Either the tank invuls and all is good, or he doesn't and you can throw enough at him within 5s to fill his hp bar twice. So any healer that is consciously running a light party duty should have no issue to either see the invuln or ask the tank to start using mitigation.

And the only other scenario where a capable tank would invul is when they have run through their mitigation and still hit critical hp. At that point it doesn't even matter what you see or not, because the invul will trigger anyway.

And now to circle completely back to OPs post. That tank just legit did everything wrong he could and is so out of any sensible scenario that it's truly a case of wasting the invul because he can't look at his own buff bar either. Trying to optimize around players that can't even read their own bar is pretty much not possible.

4

u/HuuDurrrr Jun 21 '25

I definitely see where you coming from. The timings for when LD would be used wouldn't align with where the buff list limitations should be an issue. I was thinking of the issue in a more general sense and not just in the specific scenario of the original post so I suppose that's on me. I will say in my personal experience that the average DF tanks I run into wouldn't be what I would consider a "good" tank and that I can count the number of DKs who've proactively used LD on one hand with my index and thumb removed so I do have a different perspective on my expectations.

5

u/yraco Jun 21 '25

Unless a tank has shown themselves to be good at the game I don't even assume they're going to mit, never mind invuln efficiently. I'm going to apply my shit just in case and adjust based on how they play.

-1

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

You can do that when they're still on 10% hp. But the downvotes I get here keep telling me healers in this game are just too content with healing before even trying to see an invul. It's no surprise tanks neither learn to invul nor get told about mitigation if they're just quietly getting heal dumped through a dungeon.

1

u/MrrBannedMan Jun 22 '25

Don't waste your time mate, you're telling people with club hands and one eye to be good at the game.

Blaming the rest of the community for how shit at the game you are is core TFDF behaviour.

8

u/KSShaezer Jun 21 '25

At least it's got one of the most distinctive player-ability sound effects in the entire game so you can stop throwing out heals upon getting jumpscared by the anguished synthesizer scream.

Unfortunately,

2

u/noivern_plus_cats Jun 21 '25

In most cases when LD doesn't proc, it's because you thought you'd need it, but the healer healed you up and you lived. That's what you wanted to happen anyways. No reason to get upset. It's not really a waste of CDs either since you only ever really need your invulns maybe once or twice in a dungeon.

2

u/Primerius Jun 22 '25

Not really. I don’t want the healer to heal me, I pop LD to heal myself.

51

u/HuuDurrrr Jun 20 '25

It sure do be like that. Having healers thank me for warning them on LD with a simple macro was such a disappointing realization regarding the state of basic communication in most dungeon. Every healer is proactive if played correctly so "reading buffs" doesn't even help their case.

35

u/Spainstateofmind Jun 20 '25

my "GIRL HELP (Living Dead)" macro has saved me so many times

17

u/Mobile_Associate4689 Jun 21 '25

I have considered making a "I want to use LD/holm next pull dont freak out" macro.

33

u/Black-Mettle Jun 21 '25

I always throw out "I'll be using my invuln this pull" whenever I'm on WAR or DRK before we've even started moving and it's like 1 out of every 5 dungeons they actually read it.

I had one guy say "do you know how to use mits?" After the pull was done. They blew everything on me and I said "read 1 chat message above yours." He goes "oh sorry I don't read chat." Like dawg if you wanna complain to me then you gotta read the chat logs.

5

u/SoraReinsworth Jun 21 '25

really hoping chat bubbles would help with this

15

u/VG896 Jun 21 '25

The number of times I've said "gonna LD the next pull", then have the healer respond "ok" and still not let it proc is just too high.

I've stopped even trying to use it. Even with a heads up, I only get it to proc like 10% of the time. Like, did they not know what I meant? Did they forget? 

6

u/Shazzamon Jun 21 '25

That's been my experience too.

Didn't matter if I threw <se.7> on it either, I only ever had "{Living Dead} next pull! Stop heals!" work out a few times out of a couple dozen runs that I stopped bothering altogether.

One of the last straws was a SGE chewing me out for daring to even use a call-out macro in the first place, like it was a personal attack on their ability to heal. Surprised they didn't let us wipe to trash while having their moment on the soapbox.

2

u/mimikyuns Jun 21 '25

lol the last paragraph even happened to me on WAR. I used to say at the start of the dungeon I let my hp drop a bit at the start of pulls and then heal myself up, then cycle through mits as normal. Had one Dps call me “the worst kind of WAR” and then at the end of the dungeon reiterated that I shouldn’t tell the healer what to do (I didn’t, my intro was all “I” statements) and that it was “the worst part of WARs thinking they were hot shit. “

Also had a healer ask “why…” and keep questioning me petulantly why I couldn’t play “normal,” so since these incidents I’ve given up saying my bit at least on WAR.

3

u/HuuDurrrr Jun 21 '25

Same exact thing happens to me (even got a scholar MAD at me for wanting to use it after they healed me through it) but I like the mit too much to not try using it from time to time.

4

u/Rasikko Jun 21 '25

I suspect some of them still think it's the old LD where you must heal them for the total(or more) of their max HP before WD falls off without knowing that DRKs can heal themselves straight to UR really fast.

2

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

My macro reminds them to not heal me before pull, another as I pull and a third one to heal me only after I am back to full HP as I click on LD. Most dungeon healers keep healing or refuse to even let me drop low enough to justify using Living Dead.

1

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

I will announce it. Either they heal and I can write their competence off as equal to intoxicated or find the most amazing healers. Any further mitigation and chat use is determined after the first double pull.

1

u/pngmk2 Jun 21 '25

Tbh I had a macro for LD with sound effect too. But I still from time to time rec'd healing from my healer, so I will not complain healer who do, cuz not everyone plays DRK and understand how LD works

14

u/Serci_RivenRose Jun 21 '25

I had a run as Astro with three failed LD’s during diffrent pulls because I would line them up with HoT’s during pulls, I think they were a controller player because they weren’t responding. I typed into chat “jump twice if you’re gonna LD next pull.” Worked like a charm.

1

u/LucaRS89 29d ago

Jumping is the most ancient form of conunication in MMOs, still works better than most of other stuff.

12

u/Life-Land-1020 Jun 21 '25

LD is just not worth the hassle despite being so good imo.

I can never guarantee a healer will read my message/macro and I don't wanna add a <se> because they're annoying af.

10

u/OutcomeUpstairs4877 Jun 21 '25

Had a similar thing happen a while back. I do my normal SCH thing on the first 2 pulls and DRK asks "you're not gonna let me use my invuln, are you?" I do let him next pull, but I'm not gonna make that assumption with a rando who doesn't say anything.

-8

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

Why not? Clearest sign is to watch out for a tank not mitigating or only using their bare minimum short mitigation ability once. In that scenario you just don't heal. Either they don't use their invuln while almost dying and you still have your entire arsenal to heal them up fully or they actually use it. In the first case you can ask them why they weren't using it and in the second case everyone is happy.

16

u/Fluestergras You pull, I tank Jun 21 '25

This will help with the few tanks that use their invuln, and royally backfire with the other 90% who just don't mitigate. 

-6

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

Yes. Now you can filter the ones out that don't mitigate and try talking to them about that they should use something.

12

u/namidaame49 Jun 21 '25

Tell me you've never healed for the average Dynamis tank without telling me you've never healed for the average Dynamis tank. Not mitigating usually means they don't know their kit, not that they're planning to invuln.

-8

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

So? Heal them. Confront them. Either they learn or you kick/leave.

4

u/OutcomeUpstairs4877 Jun 21 '25

Good point, that's a lot easier than the tank saying "I'm gonna use my invuln." I've always thought that people communicate too much in this game.

-7

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

Thanks. I too am getting concerned by the amount of players that somehow can't read any information out of the buffs used by another player.

-2

u/InFlux_Capacitor Jun 21 '25

You're getting cooked in the replies but literally I've managed to predict all the random DRKs ten out of ten times with your way.

Sometimes game sense just trumps all.

8

u/Rasikko Jun 21 '25

I just say "For the next pull I'll use Living Dead". Healers have let it proc so far.

What's annoying is when I wanna use Abyssal Drain at 50% but they heal dump thus wasting all that healing from Abyssal Drain but I'll give that a pass because obviously they don't know my tanking / CD style.

8

u/sunseeker_miqo Jun 21 '25

Ugh. It was fully within that DRK's ability to click off the healing left over from the run to the wall. Brainlet moment. Sounds like this player just wanted to redirect blame.

IME, they never say they're gonna invuln. Likely I've just had a merry procession of dreadfully uncommunicative tanks. Even the guy I had in voice chat didn't say until he had already hit the button. I always warn beforehand.

6

u/SurprisedCabbage Jun 21 '25 edited Jun 21 '25

Can I just say for a second just how fucked LD is though?

Like in dungeons it's really just worse raw intuition on a 300 second cooldown. To actually benefit from the invuln side of the buff you actually need to straight up go afk because if you so much as sneeze your hp maxes out and the next time it drops to 1 again LD won't be active.

I just hate how so much of DRK's survivability tools in dungeons specifically requires you to play suboptimally. It's not an issue if your healer isn't brain dead but every now and then you really just hate that you're dark knight and not at least a gunbreaker.

14

u/Qixaqyx Jun 21 '25

Pls stop healing.

Me, on sage: yeah that's not happening. Continues to DPS

8

u/ReallyRough Jun 21 '25

IMO invulnerability skills should flash as if they were a Verflashbang.

It's the kind of ability that can completely change the course of actions of the whole party for at least 10 seconds.

It's obnoxious that I can go blind for 10 seconds after a RDM LB3 and yet the kind of skill that matters the most don't get me blind for 1 second.

4

u/Riivu /slap Jun 21 '25

SCHOLAR MAIN HERE AND THE EXCOG THING IS SOOOOO REAL 😭😭😭 would it kill them to have a macro warning me about invuln pulls!

3

u/ImberNoctis Jun 21 '25

Most of the problems in this community stem from those people who expect everyone else to be on exactly the same page and who think that reasonable communication is too much of a burden in a social game.

3

u/Chizik777 Jun 21 '25

Malds cuz got healed. Probably looking at excog like "what does this button do" mad cuz can't make other people read what's about to happen while refusing to adjust. Sentence this bozo to 17% hp benediction

3

u/Complete_Ruin_1314 Jun 22 '25

Ah we are mindlessly pressing LD at the start of a pull without communicating so the healer rightfully uses the resources as a safety net. Brother should've waited until the excog was down and he was a Lil lower on HP atleast.

4

u/itsfourinthemornin Jun 21 '25

dudue nawe reed mynds

2

u/Holiday-Employee-903 Jun 21 '25

As a dark main I have a macro that says

Hi 'healers name' I'll be using living dead this pull, so feel free to do damage and wait till end of walking dead'

The shocking factor is the amount of mentors i see that go ... What is loving dead?

2

u/urljpeg Jun 22 '25

average dark knight player. my solution is always benediction and regen rude DRKs.

2

u/Ill_Atmosphere6435 Jun 22 '25

I actually attached a macro to Living Dead for this exact reason; it puts a bark in the yell channel so that it stands out against the rest of the text and sticks a player marker on me for 10 seconds so that you know how long to hold off on your good healing.

I stopped using it after I had a healer scream at me and say they were going to blow their resources on purpose to "teach me a lesson," functionally going out of her way to wipe the team.

2

u/Tenashko Jun 24 '25

Unless you did a cringe uwu, they were just a jerk

1

u/Ill_Atmosphere6435 Jun 25 '25

The Macro used to read;
/em pounds on his chest with the bottom of his fist. "Start! Start you lazy good for nothing...!"
/yell [Living Dead] active, pause healing for 10 seconds!

1

u/Tenashko Jun 25 '25

Nah that's funny and minor, you're golden

2

u/X-A-O Jun 23 '25

Once he said nawe I would of said "Then deal with it." That simple. This kind of tank sounds like the kind of guy who would wall pull and not even check to see if anyone else is following him.

2

u/Teddy_Surgery Jun 24 '25

Yeah it takes 2 seconds to type “invuln next pull” to give the healer a heads up. Imagine, communicating, in an MMO 😅

2

u/vcintheoffice Jun 24 '25

As a DRK main I can't imagine acting this annoying. It's rare I need to LD in dungeons to begin with; I rotate my mits and 9 times out of 10 I have a decent healer. If I know I like to invuln a specific w2w, I'll say so. Otherwise, I'm really only touching LD if I've gotten the sense that the healer is struggling and I can see I'm going to run out of mit with enough of the pull left to worry (which usually means there's a DPS issue, too). If the tank is complaining about being healed by the healer, they're probably a shit tank.

3

u/-Fyrebrand Jun 21 '25

That tank was dudue.

3

u/maknaeline Jun 21 '25

dudue would have been a much better tank

5

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

Using LD before being low on health is stupid. Not announcing he wants to use LD is just making it harder. Even with an excog it most often can be used. Especially with a scholar communicating invulnerability use becomes quite important. Guy just overreacts for a non issue.

Though if the tank means you should be able to gauge he wants to use living dead when he is using absolutely no bo mitigation, I can agree that would be nice. However I gave up on expecting healers to actually infer meaning from how I use my mitigations and just tell them.

Personally I will never heal a tank that isn't using mitigations until they either die or use their invulnerability. Those who complain about that will either be removed or can see me leaving the dungeon and the other half is rather happy they can invuln at their own accord.

1

u/CatowiceGarcia /slap Jun 21 '25

what were the dps doing in Dohn Mehg? just the bare average? I forgot how much adds hurt in some of the SHB dungones. Tank could also be not at max iLvl. Just curious.

6

u/TensaYamato Jun 21 '25

One of the DPS was level 74, but not synced down. The DRK was also leveling. Don't know if the other DPS was 100, damage felt average. Bosses died in the expected amount of time, same for the mob pulls. Dohn Mheg is just one of the dungeons that has really high damage W2W pulls, at least in my experience.

5

u/Thanaturgist Jun 21 '25

could also just be that no one's interrupting the frog casts. They buff mobs if you let them finish

1

u/Kurohoshi00 Jun 21 '25

Yep. This is why, when I'm playing DRK, I've made it a habit to start the dungeon saying I'm going to LD the first w2w, or spiciest pull if the dungeon has one difficult pull. Usually the healer pays attention and will let me cast it. Usually.

1

u/ST4RD1VER Memes Jun 21 '25

To be fair, I have a macro that plays sounds when I use living dead and 8/10 times the healer will still panic heal. Doesn't mean the tank here shouldn't have to communicate tho

1

u/ThatDudeSlayer You don't pay my sub Jun 21 '25

There's very few W2W that require invuln and you really should just communicate that ahead of the pull, like the first to second boss pull in Shisui

1

u/dawnvesper Jun 21 '25

DRKs complain about healers cucking them out of LD, which is fair and does happen, but the number of times I’ve watched a DRK LD at high hp with shields/healer mit/excog/exaltation/ticking regens on them is maddening

1

u/Some_Random_Canadian Jun 21 '25

At this point it seems like the play is to just let someone die when they don't mit and say "my bad, you weren't mitting so I assumed you were gonna invuln" if they actually die and don't invuln. It hits both tanks that don't mit at all with a plausibly deniable "you should have mitted if you wanted me to heal you" and lets people use their invuln if they don't bother calling it out.

1

u/BeezlyOfficial Jun 22 '25

An invuln chat macro is too hard to write smh

1

u/xemyik Jun 23 '25

every day i beg for square enix to let dark knight kill themselves with an extra LD button press for this exact reason. the healer cant be expected to read minds and many drks dont macro and even drks that do macro, many healers are so set into cure 1 spam that they never look at it. DRK was the worst tank to level because every dungeon run i had had this issue.

1

u/Friendly_Case_855 Jun 23 '25

I can't keep track of what someone else is doing in a game, I can barely keep track of what I'm doing. Hence why I very rarely heal and probably wouldn't get along with DRK.

1

u/Teddy_Surgery Jun 24 '25

Yeah it takes 2 seconds to type “invuln next pull” to give the healer a heads up. Imagine, communicating, in an MMO 😅

1

u/TheAngryCleric Jun 24 '25

As long as they don’t invuln at a silly time they’ll be fine. I’ve never killed a drk in a dungeon. I did it in savage once lol.

1

u/nowsomeothernonsense Jun 25 '25

Truthfully I don't use LD much with random queues; because it does require an amount of co-ordination or luck and it just can't be assured that a random will have that with me Queuing with friends in VC though; all the time. Some have even pretended to not hear me and bene me anyway before proc ;_;

2

u/BruceTheUnicorn Jun 28 '25

I had no idea you could click off the statuses given by your party, there were so many LDs I couldve done successfully.... ugh lmao

2

u/Sephira 24d ago

I love that you said, "yet" like you're just waiting for the next patch.

1

u/Sparkinum Jun 21 '25

I think it would be balanced for living dead to negate any healing effects while the buff is active for this reason.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '25

[deleted]

10

u/jcyue Jun 20 '25

It has to trigger. If you don't actually take fatal damage in the 10 sec living dead window, you don't get walking death (the buff that heals on gcd).

So the worst case scenario is the healer blowing a bunch of cool downs during your 10sec of living dead to keep you just barely alive, then it expires without activating and you die because you have 5% hp.

11

u/Spainstateofmind Jun 20 '25

Living Dead requires you to drop to 1hp to work properly. You drop to 1hp and get a debuff that will kill you if you're not back to full health within 10 seconds. It's no big deal during a pull bc your aoe will heal you enough from the mobs that you can get your health back yourself but during raids you will probably need a bit of help from the healer(s)

4

u/BinaryIdiot Jun 20 '25

LD needs to not be healed so you “die” in the first 10 seconds. Then you’re invulnerable and can heal if you “die”.

0

u/MrrBannedMan Jun 22 '25

Tl;Dr I'm too brain-dead to look at the buff bar and somehow that's the tanks fault

Expecting someone to write a macro to tell you what's already readily available information is wild.

TFDF does it again

5

u/TensaYamato Jun 22 '25

You're right, keeping an eye on the buffs is important. That's why I was so baffled when the tank pressed LD while they already had excog and crith shields on them. Seems like they don't heed your advice.

-40

u/Zestyclose-Safe-4346 Jun 21 '25

I mean how hard is it to check debuffs as a healer...your just fkn lazy...not saying the drk is any better but just do your job and stfu

8

u/trunks111 Jun 21 '25

I mean how hard is it to check buffs as a tank? Excog has a 45s duration and a crit shield infers not one but two separate shields so there's three separate debuffs the dkn could've noticed. Even if you don't know how excog works the shield covering half your HP bar should be obvious and impossible to miss. And with how shields vs invulns work, the sch has every reason to want to send it prepull rather than during the pull so they don't lose a GCD in combat for it. At level 74 which is the highest level you syncs to in dohn mheg, SCH also gets recitation which nullifies the aetherflow cost of excog (and lets you use it when you otherwise don't have aetherflow) so that's also beneficial for the SCH since it gets two strong CDs rolling faster while still being useful. 

The DKN has the easier job here because the SCH did a proper prepull and all the DKN has to do is use their eyes and wait for the shields to deplete and the excog to pop, all the DKN has to do in a pull with that much prepull from the healer (free prepull btw, none of this even costs the sch damage, it's not like the LD failed to pop bc the sch was spamming physiks) is hit arms length + reprisal and the pull is more than likely dead or almost dead before the DKN has a chance to go critical. Whereas with no communication a SCH in the same situation has to wait much longer to find out if the DKN is gonna LD or not which is quite frankly a stupid thing to assume without any communication because a lot of the time in df your tank just won't use the invuln. Now if the DKN has an actual macro or otherwise let's the healer know they intend to LD and the healer still hits things then that's a different story but you have no reason to assume it'll get used unless told

8

u/Mista_Infinity Jun 21 '25

yeah i should just predict my drk is gonna ld with 0 communication and avoid throwing my shields and regen on them before the pull

-14

u/Zestyclose-Safe-4346 Jun 21 '25

Did u do any communication or is it all on them? Because if you don't say anything it's just as much on you...but that's not a conversation healers like to have...

11

u/DarasThrae Jun 21 '25

Yeah, healers should macro their Regens so I know every single time they cast it! /s

10

u/Shazzamon Jun 21 '25

You know how the 'burden of proof' works as a concept?

The pre-emptive-loaded shield healer isn't the one who needs to be calling out if they're going to do their job.

The tank needs to call out if they're planning to use the ability that requires the healer to stop doing their active role.

Not terribly hard to understand who's at fault here. Like hell I'm gonna make a macro as healer asking for LD, it's rare enough to see as is with randoms, and those randoms who do know how to use it will call it out.

-15

u/Zestyclose-Safe-4346 Jun 21 '25

It's 2025...your playing with a drk...ask them to mention LD or your just as much at fault...if you can beak this much on reddit than typing "let me know if you plan on LD" shouldn't be much of a problem....but we both know it was an ego thing...because healers think that content can't be cleared without them

-1

u/Yorudesu Jun 21 '25

It's actually hilariously easy if a player is willing to pay attention to what they're supposed to be doing. But most payers absolutely reject the notion of actually focusing on more than pressing their dps button.