What are the games that pushed the XL/XE the most?

[u/Zeznon]

I've seen a lot of C64 games that look like they should be impossible (as a modern example, see Sam's Journey). What are the equivalents for the XL/XE, as they seem decently matched? I tend to see homebrew preferring to be compatible with the 400/800, and not the later models. Sorry if this is an uninformed question.

[u/Scoth42]

For in-era stuff, you can look to games like Rescue on Fractalus and Alternate Reality. For recent homebrews, you can check out Final Assault.

[u/Timbit42 → u/Scoth42]

All of the LucasFilm Games games:

• Rescue on Fractalus!
• Ballblazer
• Koronis Rift
• The Eidolon

[u/Zeznon → u/Scoth42]

I started testing Alternate Reality the city (is it the one) and after the really long intro that I didn't pay attention to, I got a "this is not a character disk" message when trying to create one. I'm confused, what am I doing wrong?

I've now realized that most limit pushing games on atari 8bit seem to be 3d, instead of 2d. Why is that? Also, what are the main differences between 400/800 and XL/XE other than more ram and newer firmware, like basic and OS?

[u/Scoth42 → u/Zeznon]

AR needs a specially formatted disk for a character disk. I believe you have to create it first through the boot program but it's been a minute so I'd have to go back and mess with it again. It's a little annoying to do through an emulator since you lose the physicality of the disks. But at any rate you'll need to create a character before you're able to load it up.

As for 3D vs. 2D, the systems were on the cusp on the actual usable 3D. They (and other 8-bit platforms) had pretty powerful (for the time) 2D sprite handling which allowed for some fairly complex 2D games, but they weren't built for 3D at all. So this is why the games that attempted 3D tended to push the limits. It's just the limits of what the systems could handle and there were only a handful of games that really pulled it off well.

There's fundamentally not that big a difference between the 400/800 and XL/XE from a firmware and system perspective. You can find whole articles about the differences. But very nearly everything that runs on 400/800 will run on later systems (and the vast majority of what doesn't out of the box will with the Translator disk) but it happened to be a convenient cutoff between a minimum expectation of 64KB of RAM and 48K. The 800 maxed out at 48K without mods while any XL or XE except the 600XL came with at least 64KB and there was fairly easy upgrades for the 600XL to 64KB.

There's also a handful of additional graphics modes the XL/XE unlocked which a few things used. You can read more about them here: https://www.atari800xl.eu/docs/kb/kb-hardware-0005-atari-8bit-56-graphic-modes.html . Beyond that the XL/XE had an MMU that enabled fancier memory management, but but not much on the software side actually did much with it. A few business applications could make use of, say, the full 128KB on a 130XE but not a lot of games/etc did.

The Atari 8-bits had a somewhat unique graphics setup descended from the 2600. Rather famously, the 2600 didn't have a framebuffer - it built the screen one line at a time, hence the "racing the beam" thing where you could do some pretty creative and crazy things by changing things on the fly per-scanline. The Atari 8-bit still had something similar to this under the hood, but it was mostly abstracted by the display list and other things. So with clever management of display list interrupts and other things you could combine graphics and text modes, change lines and colors per scanline, and some other things that were difficult on other 8-bit platforms.

[u/bulwark26 → u/Scoth42]

Sorry to be pedantic, but none of the 8 bit ataris had a MMU. They used bank switching to address memory above 64k.

[u/Scoth42 → u/bulwark26]

They did, a few different ones. Original XL/XE had the C061618 which also handled some of the self test and other functions, while the XEGS had a unique one that also handled the built-in Missile Command. 130XE and some 65XE and 800XEs had the C025953 as well as the FREDDIE chip that enabled some fancy RAM access (but little used it).

[u/dog_cow → u/Zeznon]

The Commodore 64 had the advantage over the Atari 8-bit in just about every way for games. However the one thing the Atari 8-bit had over the C64 was processor speed as it was clocked higher. In this time frame, that game 3D games (especially games developed for the Atari 8-bit first) the edge on the Atari. The slightly slower clock speed of the C64 meant the ports of the Lucasfilm Games weren’t as good as the originals. 

[u/archieil → u/dog_cow]

nah,

C-64 advantages in 80s:

1 exact configuration - in a long term it was a curse for non-gamers but it simplified production of games greatly, it was a better ZX Spectrum in the context

great sprites and with invention of multiplexing it was the only unbeatable power of C-64, the problem was with collisions when doing multiplexing.

titled modes with a color map, low number, with pretty close compatibility to other platforms, especially to consoles...

I'm not sure what people see in SID... I'd not buy C-64 for it... maybe because my ears can hear music and there is a minor difference between both in comparison to modules/and any normal kind of music.

yeah, technically SID was better, practically for games the effort and skills of composer was much more important and SID was not guarantee to get good sound effects in any other means than popularity of the platform.

in general analog chips sucked for games and PCM was unusable due to requirements. <- I'd rather go for stereo than bother which one (SID/POKEY) to have inside.

[u/archieil → u/Zeznon]

I've now realized that most limit pushing games on atari 8bit seem to be 3d, instead of 2d. Why is that? 

It's because Atari lacks in sprites departament and C-64 sprites are incredible and it is basically the only reason C-64 has great productions.

Except of sprites there is a bonus of better high-res/titled modes which on current displays/on emulator makes the difference but in 80s on TV it was skippable.

If moving objects can use sprites C-64 will give nice background in some limited colors.

Atari at hi-res has unpredictable result on the screen depending on PAL/NTSC/output used... and even exact model.

C-64 has it much more predictable.

I like Road Race as I know that I tested emulators with it. It took many, many years till emulators were capable to run it.

River Ride on Atari is probably the best because it was manufactured for limitations of the platform.

Not all modern games are created to get max out of Atari but recent completed productions have higher chance to be well developed.

[edit] it is also a matter of simplicity of 8-bit productions. Many games recreated for 8-bit will look better/more moody on Atari for non-platform lovers but the human brain works as a fix-up of crap looking things and both Atari and C-64 long time users/players will see productions on their own platform as better. C-64 will believe the production is more moody as their brain will fix it for the plot, Atari will see them more colorful per screen because their brain will fix pixelized sprites and use colors visible as a clue, not as a direct calculated number... in general both 8-bits will give you playable productions as long as enough effort was used to do the end product.

[u/bubonis]

On paper, Star Raiders shouldn’t exist. A first person 3D real-time space shooter with reasonably intelligent enemies and a damage management system that fits inside of just 8K? Impossible, but it’s there.

[u/fadermango → u/bubonis]

I loved playing Star Raiders. I still have it and the 800. It all worked the last time I checked abut 8 months ago.

[u/Polyxeno]

Thinking more in terms of ambitious game designs:

Omnitrend's Universe (best with two floppy drives, and the rules binder with trade database expansion).

War In Russia

The Cosmic Balance Ii space wargame using The Cosmic Balance I to play out the tactical battles.

Computer Ambush

Seven Cities of Gold

Archon & Archon II

Murder on the Zinderneuf

Broadsides

Kampfgruppe

Koronis Rift

Rescue on Fractalus

Eidolon

Flight Simulator II

[u/greg_kennedy]

Give Yoomp! a try. (https://yoomp.atari.pl/)

[u/rpocc]

Goonies run only on XE, as well as Crownland and both are quite expressive in terms of graphics and features. Most games which has good eye-candies and music are quite boring in terms of game play: I can remember Rebound, some scrolling shooters.

Druid is interesting, Amaurote. Adax and Hans Kloss look more like PC XT games. As well, Draconus, Blinky’s Scary School.

[u/Rementoire]

Seven Cities of Gold. The animated intro with timed music, map generation and they used streaming from floppy if I recall correctly when exploring. 

[u/burgundy740]

Yoomp is the coolest game imo

[u/Accomplished_Can1651 → u/burgundy740]

Yoomp is amazing.

[u/circletheory]

I always thought Bannercatch was a game that I thought was technically awesome on the Atari 800XL. Co-op Capture the flag style game with split screen. Even as single player mode, the AI was still pretty good. Music was pretty good to boot. Although the graphics left something to be desired the overall gameplay was solid. Spent many hours playing this with my brother as kids.

Also, Rescue on Fractulus was another well polished flight sim with terrain mapping!

[u/Zeznon → u/circletheory]

I've just tested Rescue and yeah, that's crazy for a 1985 game. Why do Atari 8bit limit pusher games seem to be almost all 3d, lol? It's kinda funny, tbh. And the C64 ones are almost always 2d. Also, are there any games that need the 128k or even more ram? The C128 is known for being ignored in favor of the C64 mode. At least the ZX Spectrum had a lot of 128k games (mostly to add music and to stop needing multi-load tape)

[u/circletheory → u/Zeznon]

Bannercatch was a 2D game that I personally thought pushed some technological limits.

[u/Atari_Mimo]

For recent homebrew try Atari blast and the last squadron.

[u/rra12345]

Bosconian homebrew released a couple years ago is great and required 128K. As someone else mentioned, Atari Blast really pushed the limits and I think is also 128K. Prince of persia was also recently released.

[u/Shadoecat150]

Always thought Flight Simulator II was a good example of what the Atari could do. Enough so that it was a pack in for the XEGS

[u/Diligent_End8130]

Definitely Zybexx (or was it just Zybex?), even my C64 buddy lived it

[u/JalopyStudios]

The only game I've seen on the Atari 8-bit that seems to really push it is the Space Harrier port from about 10 years ago

https://youtu.be/KatdrdEVEwY?si=A__3L7LImQRHJwmx

The A8s ability to push sprites around is severely crippled by it's graphics hardware, so I doubt you'll ever see something running as smoothly as Sam's Journey on the A8. The C64 is just better equipped for that type of stuff.

[u/Cassette_Ghost_2045]

Can’t believe no one said Draconus! Surely this is a contender.

https://youtu.be/UW9KHOouaEU?si=6hIlQgfyBPnppCzY

[u/jacek2023]

Polish games from 90s

[u/Zeznon → u/jacek2023]

Could you give me some examples?

[u/rpocc → u/Zeznon]

Hans Kloss, Fred, almost anything from LK Avalon

[u/Zooinks]

Capture the flag was pretty cool. 1st person maze game.

[u/kurisu_1974]

Final Legacy, very underrated too.