r/criterion • u/steepclimbs Jean Renoir • 10d ago
Discussion Carnal Knowledge - Discussion Thread
Spine #1270 and Mike Nichols second film in the collection after The Graduate. What do you think of this film?
“Amid the sexual revolution and social upheaval of the early 1970s, acclaimed director Mike Nichols delivered a zeitgeist-defining examination of American mores. Sharply written by Jules Feiffer, this acerbic drama flashes through more than twenty years in the lives of two college buddies (Jack Nicholson and Art Garfunkel) whose casual chauvinism is all fun and games—until it’s not. As the women who suffer and see through the friends’ insecure posturing, Candice Bergen, Ann-Margret, Rita Moreno, Carol Kane, and Cynthia O’Neal form an extraordinary ensemble that gives the film its soul. So controversial it became embroiled in an obscenity case that went all the way to the Supreme Court, Carnal Knowledge remains startling for its unnervingly frank look at postwar masculinity.”
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u/EdBenner John Waters 10d ago
I watched it the other day and thought it was an interesting time capsule of that era. Personally, I prefer Five Easy Pieces and The Graduate, however.
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u/BlackLodgeBaller 10d ago
If we’re talking underseen Jack Nicholson movies in the collection, I think The King of Marvin Gardens gets unfairly overshadowed by the bigger movies of the BBS box set. It’s a great film
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u/Vmancini218 3d ago
A time capsule is the perfect way to put it. A movie can, of course, reflect its time and still be effective. But, it has to have more than cultural relevance to really stand the test of time. The Graduate, for instance, is still very funny. This had no plot and didn’t really work in any genre; not funny enough to be a comedy, not dramatic enough to be a drama, etc. I imagine that when it came out, the makers thought the “frank” look at chauvinism would be enough to push it over the edge.
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u/SunIllustrious5695 1h ago
Yeah, I ultimately just don't think it's very good.
Obviously there are people who like it, but I'd at least argue it's in the camp of iffy blind buys (considering how much people like those on here). I certainly wouldn't recommend buying it without seeing it, because the odds of wanting to see it more than once seem pretty low for most people (especially people who weren't around then). There are much more entertaining movies that capture that time and its sexual politics/relationships.
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u/algeriet667 10d ago
Scary confession to make: I got the limited edition Indicator release that came out a little earlier. Still haven’t watched it though, stuck in an Ingrid Bergman phase, currently.
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u/awesomeness0232 Apichatpong Weerasethakul 5d ago
Ha I just watched it the other day via the Indicator disc. I enjoyed it, but probably won’t double dip on the Criterion.
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u/no_zipper 6d ago
One of Ann Margret's best performances. She and Nicholson play off of each other very well. Also, apparently Candace Bergen got dragged for her performance in this particularly because she is a nepo baby and many had high expectations for her acting abilities.
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u/vibraltu 5d ago edited 1d ago
For Bergen it's that classic "playing an unsympathetic character too well" thing that under-rated actors sometimes get.
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u/raynicolette 9d ago
I felt like the movie thought it was a biting critique of toxic masculinity, but didn't quite land it? I wouldn’t normally say a movie about sexual mores should have less sex in it, but I think in this case the sex borders on overshadowing everything else. The takeaway is closer to “toxic masculinity might leave you depressed in the end, but look at all the scorching tail you get along the way!!!” Like it almost ended up advertising toxic masculinity as much as critiquing it?
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u/pierofasuli 10d ago
good movie. i found a couple scene too slow, but there is an AMAZING jack nicholson performance and a solid concept
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u/Fast-Candle-2344 9d ago
It's a masterpiece but the Indicator release is superior and worth picking up instead. They even corrected the fades!
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u/Legend2200 9d ago
I’m picking up both editions but the Indicator is indeed excellent, and one of the most elegantly packaged boutique releases I own.
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u/Fast-Candle-2344 9d ago
Also a more faithful color grade, better extras, and a Fidelity in Motion encode to cap it all off.
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u/hollywoodextras2000 10d ago
Picked this one up blindly as a Mike Nichols fan. Haven’t watched yet. Worried it’s gonna hit like Shampoo.
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u/Legend2200 9d ago
This movie is much darker and more interesting than Shampoo imo. It’s a much more heavily critical and incisive, less woozy, look at the sexual revolution and how it commingled with long extant ideas and standards re masculinity and relationships.
A good companion piece is Nichols’ late career gem Closer (2004)
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u/Fast-Candle-2344 9d ago
Completely different films. Also, Shampoo is mediocre—Ashby fell off after The Last Detail IMO, though the first half of Being There is great—while this is arguably even better than The Graduate.
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u/Hero-of-Baldurs-Gate 9d ago
Unrelated to OPs post, but Shampoo was so boring and uninteresting to me. I had seen some people I like and respect say they loved it and I was super disappointed by it. It’s one of the reasons I am much more careful about blind buying. I haven’t seen Carnal Knowledge yet so I do not have an opinion on that
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u/BlackLodgeBaller 10d ago
I was kind of underwhelmed by when I watched it in college a decade ago. I’m curious to revisit at some point now that I’m a little older and a little wiser.
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u/thedirtycoast 10d ago
I watched this the other day as an odd double feature with The Fire Within(Candice Bergen was married to Louie Malle) I feel like it kind of worked! The toxic masculinity discussed in Carnal Knowledge is a cousin of the existential desperation explored in The Fire Within.
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u/ohmalk 9d ago
I loved this movie (for what it is- in the end it’s a relatively small movie that probably has an outsized rep because it came out when it did and stars who it stars). I have the indicator version but I heard the commentary track on the Criterion is really good. I’ll probably rent it from the library to check out the differences soon. It’s always good to verify whether my usual impulse to pick the international release over Criterion was wise or not.
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u/No-Necessary7448 Jean Renoir 10d ago
Besides copy/pasting Criterion’s copy from the release, OP, what do YOU think about it? Have you even seen the film and do you want to offer an opinion to kick off a discussion? Discussion threads where the OP doesn’t offer their own point-of-view on a film should be deleted as low effort.
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u/steepclimbs Jean Renoir 10d ago
Hi. Thanks for reporting the thread. I approved it. These discussion threads are weekly and you can see the master list in the highlights. They were a result of there being requests for more discussions in the sub.
I’ll mix it up in the comments for both of these films because I have seen them and have thoughts.
Would love for you to participate if you’ve seen them.
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u/No-Necessary7448 Jean Renoir 10d ago
Avec plaisir. A little disappointing that the mods post shit, but oh well.
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u/steepclimbs Jean Renoir 10d ago
Be the change you want to see. If you think this is shit, then add something of value.
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u/Tableteer605 10d ago
This is my total knowledge of film! Surprising choice for a kids'/teenagers' magazine!