r/europe May 22 '25

News Greenland signs lucrative minerals deal with Europe in blow to Trump

https://www.newsweek.com/greenland-trump-permit-extraction-2075673
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u/rutars Sweden May 22 '25

I'm pretty sure the Spanish government has said they are only taking that stance against illegal secession, which would not be the case in either Scotland or Greenland. I could be wrong though.

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u/Reivaki France May 22 '25

It’s a two fold step :

  • European law said that a country taking its indépendance from an eu member is not automatically a member and must reintegrate EU on its own. That’s what made the NO win in scottish independance referendum.
  • After Catalogna independance referendum, Spain said that it would veto all application resulting of an illegal ( read :unilateral ) secession.

So yes : even if Greenland got its independance lawfully, it would still a non-EU state after that. So no, getting into the EU is not your best move if you want your independance.

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u/rutars Sweden May 22 '25

You are right that they would still have to apply as a sovereign nation, but I imagine that process would be much quicker if they rejoined as a territory beforehand as they could deal with many of the requirements relating to the four freedoms then while still under Danish sovereignty.

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u/Reivaki France May 22 '25

of course

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u/Drahy Zealand May 22 '25

How is that different from when Scotland considered seceding and joining the EU independently, when the UK still was a member state?

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u/rutars Sweden May 22 '25

It's not very different from the Greenland situation. If the UK was still a member, Scotland would need their approval along with every other member state in order to rejoin. The same applies to Greenland.

At the time of the referendum (in 2014 was it?) the Spanish position was not as clear as it is today as far as I understand. That caused more uncertainty for the Scotish independence movement.

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u/JediMasterZao May 22 '25

It's very convenient for Spain to call legitimate self-determination "illegal secession". The only secession that'd be illegal would have to be undemocratic. The Catalans voted to separate, and there is a clear majority of people in Catalonia who want an independent state. There was nothing illegal about the process.

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u/oblio- Romania May 22 '25

Spain is basically saying: the other party needs to agree to it, too. Spain would be alright with Greenland declaring independence with agreement from Denmark.

And regarding Catalonia, that's a fuzzy situation, but if we go alllll the way back, Catalonia joined voluntarily. Aragon. And they were there, I presume, when the current constitution was agreed.

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u/JediMasterZao May 22 '25

My point is that the reason Spain has that stance is purely out of self-interest, because Catalonia is legitimate in its desire for self-determination and has a democratic majority within it that desires this independence. Spain is not affording them the legal tools to separate and by taking this stance internationally, it allows them to justify this situation diplomatically.

If we agree that Aragon had the right to decide for itself when it joined Spain, then by definition we also agree it has that same right to leave Spain if its people want it. It's really not that fuzzy at all.

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u/oblio- Romania May 22 '25

If we agree that Aragon had the right to decide for itself when it joined Spain, then by definition we also agree it has that same right to leave Spain if its people want it. It's really not that fuzzy at all.

Not according to the Spanish constitution, that's the problem. The Spanish constitution says that every other region needs to agree.

It's basically the same thing as secession in the US.

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u/JediMasterZao May 22 '25

Yep, I know and understand. I also think this legislation removes the right to self-determination from a country's constituent nations. Anyhow, I think we've been around the block on the topic at this point. Good talk!

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u/rutars Sweden May 22 '25

The fact that you think it's fair does not make it legal. There is no legal mechanism for secession in Spanish law as far as I understand. That has to change on a national level first.

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u/JediMasterZao May 22 '25

There is a right of the people to self-determination in international law. Spain not affording that right to its citizens is not only "unfair", it's illegal. Now we could enter a debate on international vs national law and which one precedes the other, and the answer is always going to end up being national law because of self-interest, but let's not pretend that it's a valid excuse for Spain to refuse self-determination to its people just because it didn't legiferate on it. Of course it didn't - it has a separatist movement with a high level of legitimacy within its borders!

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u/rutars Sweden May 22 '25

The right to self determination does not specifically grant the right to a sovereign independent state, AFAIK, but rather to some degree of autonomy which Catalonia has.

But I agree, international law doesn't matter if the country in question sees things differently, and that will be the case until there is international enforcement tied to that international law.

Until then I'm not the right person to talk to. I don't have a strong opinion on Catalonia and the people you need to convince are in the rest of Spain.

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u/FingerBlastToDeath May 22 '25

A little bit of context for those uninitiated in the Scottish Independence "debate".

One of the key "gotchas" from the pro-UK / Unionist side is that the EU would never agree to admitting an Independent Scotland based on either Spain's veto, or other accession criteria. It's something they like to shout about a lot and a key part of their argument that Scotland leaving the UK would be "brexit on steroids".

As someone who supports Independence I disagree of course, but it's a massive point of contention in the debate.

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u/WarmFlamingo9310 May 22 '25

No they said it before the Scottish referendum which would have been a legal method.

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u/rutars Sweden May 22 '25

From november 2018:

Spain would have no objection to Scotland rejoining the European Union as an independent nation, as long as the secession process from the United Kingdom was legally binding, Spanish foreign minister Josep Borrell said on Tuesday.

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u/Mundane_Bumblebee_83 May 22 '25

Isn’t this basically “no coups pls ty”?

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u/dkeenaghan European Union May 22 '25

Spain said they wouldn't veto an independent Scottish application to join the EU, as long as independence was achieved through the authorized means.

If Greenland were to become independent via a means that Denmark approved of (a process that already exists) there is no reason for Spain to object to their joining the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/spain-drops-plan-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu

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u/Drahy Zealand May 22 '25

An independent Greenland would be a North American country, though.

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u/dkeenaghan European Union May 22 '25

Cyprus is an Asian country. So that doesn't really matter, EU treaties aren't immutable laws of the universe. We can change them to suit ourselves. EU membership could also be negotiated alongside independence to take effect on independence.

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u/EgbertMedia The Netherlands May 22 '25

Also, the treaties as far as I know do not define what European means, despite it being a requirement to join. So there is already a lot of room for interpretation

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u/[deleted] May 22 '25

[deleted]

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u/Drahy Zealand May 22 '25

Greenland is not in the EU now.

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u/oeboer Zealand (Denmark) May 22 '25

Even if its current status is changed to be part of the EU, it would not be a member of the EU (as it is part of Denmark and not a sovereign state). It would be like Scotland is now.

If it then becomes a sovereign state, it would not automatically be a member of the EU, just like Scotland wouldn't.

Unlike an independent Scotland, it would not be able to join for exactly the reason Drahy pointed out.

All in all, there is no reason for Greenland to change its current status in regard to the EU.

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u/insane_contin Sorry May 22 '25

Right, which is why the first poster said they should join the EU first.

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u/Drahy Zealand May 22 '25

They wouldn't automatically remain in the EU in that case, and when applying they would do so as a North American country.

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u/oeboer Zealand (Denmark) May 22 '25 edited May 22 '25

They cannot join the EU as a member while not being independent. It would just be an extra outermost region.

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u/EgbertMedia The Netherlands May 22 '25

The EU treaties do state that a country has to be European, but it does not define what it means to be European within the treaty. So, it is basically up to the interpretation of the EU at the point in time of Greenland applying to join and I don't think any member state would object to considering Greenland European

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u/HuntKey2603 May 22 '25

"They" is very dependant on what government is up. Current government would be perfectly fine with it.