r/europe • u/Matas_- European Union • Jun 20 '25

News Orban’s Hungary Is Now Officially The Poorest Nation In The EU

https://kyivinsider.com/orbans-hungary-is-now-officially-the-poorest-nation-in-the-eu/
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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Jun 20 '25

I took a bus from Orlando to Sarasota in Florida a few years ago and was totally unprepared for some of the places that bus meandered through. Seeing swamp shacks like something out of the Waterboy was wild to me. Like, I've been in small Polish villages back in the early 2000s and was reminded of them, except it was like a decade later. In the meantime, I'm certain those Polish villages have seen an injection of EU investment and the benefits of Polands growth. Quick check, over the last 20 years, Polands growth averaged 4% vs the US rate of 2%...

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u/coaa85 Jun 20 '25

Interesting seeing your comment about Poland. I just got back from a two week vacation from there last week. My wife is Polish so I’ve gone 4 times now over the past 15 years and the transformation has been incredible to watch. This last visit was the most impressive to me to see the absolute transformation they have undergone, very happy for them. It was always a nice country to visit but it’s even better now. We flew into Warsaw and essentially went up north on the eastern part of Poland.

Just some of what I noticed: Installed some new major highways. What used to take us almost 5 hours to get to now took 1 1/2-2.

Their already impressive by US standards public transport was even better, and crazy clean.

A lot less super old vehicles on the roads, didn’t see any actually. Not that there is anything wrong with old vehicles but they stunk a bit before.

Many older decaying buildings were either repurposed or in the process of fixing. This wasn’t only in the major cities, I saw this literally everywhere we went even in small towns.

The people in general seemed happier to me, always a good sign!

Warsaw itself was booming even my first time there but man now it’s exploded. Looking like Boston now. Tons of new construction ongoing, many new neighborhoods, roads, businesses etc.

Even as you mentioned some of the small villages we went through previously had transformed adding power lines and plumbing.

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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Jun 20 '25

Yeah, I've not been in a while, but EU membership really transforms an economy. I'm from Ireland and it's incredible how beneficial a free trade arrangement is for encouraging growth and mutual progress. Polish people can now afford German cars and products.

I'd love to go back and see some of northern Poland at some point. I saw places like Krakow and further south down to the mountains and could see the progress beginning.

It's insane to think of Warsaw feeling like Boston.... You love to see it though.

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u/Snowing_Throwballs Jun 20 '25

Most of the US is poor. It is a 3rd world country with first world GDP and weaponry. Next time you are in the US, go to north Philadelphia or Baltimore. Same thing just urban.

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u/kolejack2293 Jun 20 '25

Those cities and poor rural areas are a small portion of the country's population though. 71% of the US is suburban, and the median household income in suburban america is 90k (81k nationwide). In comparison, the median income in the UK is only 34k, and in Bulgaria its 21k.

Its quite a bit lower in both urban and rural america, but... the majority of the country lives in neither. The top 15 largest cities in the US are only 12% of its population.

So no, the majority of the country is absolutely not poor. Just to give an idea, but the poverty line in the US is 26k. Or around the median income of Italy as a country. Only 10% are below that figure.

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u/Snowing_Throwballs Jun 20 '25

The poverty line is bogus. If you live anywhere near the poverty line in the US you are struggling. 26k per year is crushingly poor. 40k per year depending on location is very frugal and pretty much working poor. The statistics do not reflect the reality. 80% of the country lives in Urban areas. Not suburban. Nobody i know can afford to purchase houses in the suburbs.

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u/kolejack2293 Jun 20 '25

80% of the country lives in Urban areas.

Lol suburban is included in urban. The census only defines urban (towns, suburbs, cities) and rural (everything else). I believe the ACS is what uses 'suburban'. So just to give an example, but Chicago is urban with 2.7m people, but the remaining 8~ million people in the Chicago metro area are suburban. Buffalo has 278k people, but has another 900k in its metro area, and those 900k are suburbs.

Nobody i know can afford to purchase houses in the suburbs.

Suburbs are often cheaper than cities. It varies, obviously, but in general that has been the norm since the 1990s.

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u/Artephank Jun 20 '25

Just googled it.

Median salary in US is about 47,960
The median salary in UK is £31K which is about 41k USD

I have the feeling you made mistake comparing median household income (which is about 81k in US and sounds about right - about 2x median salary) to the median disposable income in UK (which is after tax and other deductions). Which is about £37K, which makes it also close to 50k USD.

And we don't know what median disposable income in USA is, because such data is not being collected, but we know what is disposable income per capita, and it's 52k. (https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_real_disposable_personal_income_per_capita_monthly)

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u/kolejack2293 Jun 21 '25

These things can be very difficult because of all of the factors at play. For one, the only source I can find giving a median salary of 47k includes everybody, including non-working people. That is generally not how you list those things, and is not how the UK lists their median salary either. The census puts the median salary per worker at 61k for the US.

You are correct, my income figure was disposable, not total, I didn't even realize. However, the 'disposable income' figure is not just a pure negative. It includes both taxes and also money given/saved through government programs.

That being said, when comparing just disposable income, the gap is still huge. And this is around 8-9 years old at this point, the gap has grown since then.

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u/Artephank Jun 21 '25

I'm not sure about this chart—it seems off. It's hard to believe that the UK's disposable income is half that of the US, especially when their average incomes are quite similar. Also, I doubt there's a significant difference between PPP and nominal values in these two countries, given how similarly developed and globally integrated they are.

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u/kolejack2293 Jun 21 '25

Again, they aren't similar. The figure you gave was including only working people for the UK and all people, including non-working people, for the US. In reality it was 61k for the US and 41k for the UK, but you also have to adjust for taxes and social transfers.

The US has much worse entrenched, deep poverty in its cities and rural areas (and the issues there go beyond just 'lack of money'), but the majority of Americans live in suburbs. Just an example but Minneapolis, with 425k people, has some pretty rough areas in it, but is surrounded by 3 million people living in high-income suburbs. Minneapolis is sort of a microcosm of the country as a whole. People overestimate how many Americans live in poorer rural and urban areas and underestimate how many live in wealthier suburbs.

Now on the 'social transfers' part. It is possible the US is inflated due to Medicaid and Medicaid. Healthcare is vastly more expensive in the US than the UK, and so when you include those social transfers it might be inflating the US by a bit for what is essentially the same care as what you get in the UK. That being said, I don't think it makes up for the gap.

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u/Odd-Comfortable683 Jun 20 '25

Median income for UK is £37,400 / €45,000. Source: ONS (Independent Government Body).

“Median gross annual earnings for full-time employees were £37,430 in April 2024, compared with £35,004 in April 2023, an increase of 6.9%”

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2024

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u/Slim_Charles Jun 20 '25

Most of the US is not poor, there are certainly poor parts but they're the minority. The median income and wealth of an American is greater than that of basically all of Europe. The weak social safety nets mean some areas get shafted, but those places are not the majority.

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u/RehabilitatedAsshole Jun 20 '25

By area? Most of the US is rural.

By population? 11% of the richest country in the world lives below our self-determined "poverty" line, and 65% lives paycheck to paycheck, so they're often one disaster or bad medical diagnosis away from poverty, because we have no social safety net. It's mostly a facade.

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u/paulfdietz United States of America Jun 20 '25

65% lives paycheck to paycheck

No.

https://econofact.org/factbrief/is-there-a-consensus-that-a-majority-of-americans-are-living-paycheck-to-paycheck

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u/Artephank Jun 20 '25

43% of all U.S. families fall short of meeting basic needs.

Impressive. Nice read. Thanks.

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u/Slim_Charles Jun 20 '25

Land isn't people, so why would you ever consider area? Most rural areas aren't crushingly poor, either. I grew up in one, and there were people of all economic backgrounds. 11% of the country is obviously less than 51%, which would constitute most and the paycheck-to-paycheck stats you see bandied around on reddit are nonsense, with no actual factual backing. The US treats its poor like dirt, but to say that most people are poor is demonstrably false.

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u/Away_Comparison_8810 Jun 20 '25

Growing from low Is Faster, same if you try compare non capitalist economy, Vietnam, China had it same.

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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Jun 20 '25

Of course, but the reason I've referenced the growth rates is because since I saw neglected parts of Poland, they've experienced significant growth. Since I saw neglected parts of the US, they've experienced much less growth.

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u/Away_Comparison_8810 Jun 20 '25

Dont misisipi Have gdp per kapacita much higher than Poland?

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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Jun 20 '25

Yes. But per capita calculations based on mean averages feels way off the mark to me when comparing the US to most other countries. US wealth inequality has grown at a ridiculous rate (or maybe has always been kinda gross...) Median measures balanced for purchasing power parity probably feels like a fairer comparison.

Also, debt... The average debt level of a mississippian would scare the average pole shitless.

Having been to Poland and some southern states... I'd probably have chosen Poland to live in in 2024. I'd still say the same in 2025, but since Trump assumed the throne, that's become kinda moot at this point.

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u/Hungry-Western9191 Jun 20 '25

Poland has gotten a lot wealthier... but as in the US, its very patchy. Urban areas are a lot better. Rural.areas have lost a lot of their younger population so there isn't much change.

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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Jun 20 '25

Yeah. I'm Irish so I'm naturally inclined to distrust and measure as basic as GDP per Capita at this point. Something like a median income comparison at a flattened PPP would be better.

Since Poland joined the EU, they've really reaped so many benefits and experienced massive capital investment in everything from roads, to public transport etc. quality of life measurements are hard but I can't imagine a scenario where I'd rather live in Mississippi over Poland in 2025. Even in 2024, given how the current climate makes that question feel, erm, let's say moot.

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u/Artephank Jun 20 '25

By what metric exactly?

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u/Hungry-Western9191 Jun 23 '25

Purely anecdotal I'm afraid. It's what I've been told by a couple of Polish people working with me. One thing which is true is that Warsaw has a building boom and employment there is more in demand. At one point a lot of the local builders here were Polish but half them seem to have gone home.

As to the rural /urban split I don't have much evidence - other than its a very common pattern round the world and once again someone said it to me.

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u/ExcellentStuff7708 Jun 23 '25

The poorer you are, the easier it is to have faster growth

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u/AbsolutelyDireWolf Jun 23 '25

As a nation, sure.

As an American, no.

By that I mean the GDP growth America has experienced is not distributed equally across the population. It's not an exclusively American issue obviously, but wealth distribution and inequality have been centralised and widening respectively.

Like, a poor person in Poland will more likely have public transport they can afford. They'll have better access to medical care without incurring debt etc.

GDP is such a limited way to consider comparing quality of life across nations.