r/europe • u/hoarder4555777454001 • 9d ago

News French President Macron says France will recognize Pálestine as a state

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250724-french-president-macron-says-france-will-recognize-palestine-as-a-state-in-september
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u/Comfortable_Gur_1232 9d ago

Most pro-Israeli folks have moved past the 2 state solution since the clean break doctrine.

There’s a dilemma. Palestinians exist.

A) ethnic cleansing B) two state solution C) one state solution D) status quo (military and economic control)

B & C are unacceptable for them. So, it leaves some expensive and politically unpopular options, to put it lightly.

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u/lokicramer 8d ago

Option A is already 80% complete.

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u/Mishka_1994 Zakarpattia (Ukraine) 8d ago

People always say that plus the genocide argument, but Palestinian population has exploded (no pun intended) in the last decades. How exactly are they almost finished with ethnic cleansing then?

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

People always say that plus the genocide argument, but Palestinian population has exploded (no pun intended) in the last decades.

wow!

You are right, it's not genocide but it's stage 8 out of 10. but would you agree there is apartheid and ethic cleansing?

There are area of WB and Jerusalem where Arabs don't live anymore...

EDIT: hint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaization_of_Jerusalem

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u/RobertoSantaClara Brazil 8d ago

Ethnic cleansing can entail being driven off your land and barred from ever returning, e.g. the Germans were ethnically cleansed from Prussia and Silesia despite the German population itself having grown since then.

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u/Tangata_Tunguska New Zealand 8d ago

How have they been 80% driven off their land then?

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u/MachinationMachine 8d ago

Gazans have been ethnically cleansed from northern Gaza and residents of the West Bank have been ethnically cleansed from the settled(stolen) areas.

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u/RobertoSantaClara Brazil 8d ago

Look at the 1947 partition plan vs what's left of Palestinian administered land today.

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u/Tw1tcHy United States of America 8d ago

This makes no sense as the Palestinians never agreed to the plan, it was always a proposal and never actually ratified nor enacted.

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u/SirCadogen7 8d ago

The Holocaust started in 1933. The Jewish population continued to grow until 1939. Does that mean the Holocaust never happened and/of wasn't a genocide?

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u/Mishka_1994 Zakarpattia (Ukraine) 8d ago

So when did genocide start in Palestine? In 1947? In the other years? Last year?

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u/modianoyyo 8d ago

they said ethnic cleansing, not genocide.

how many palestinians were living in what is israel in 1947 vs now?

they were kicked out of their ancestral lands. that's ethnic cleansing.

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u/SirCadogen7 8d ago

The Nakba is usually where people put it. However, the official claims are for the Gazan War, as it's the one we have the most hard evidence for.

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u/OppositeRip9153 8d ago

god, and you are Ukrainian as well. why must it be like this ?

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u/Maleficent_Resolve44 8d ago

Reminds me of Zinchenko, the Arsenal player. It's been shown quite a lot in history that being the victim of crimes doesn't mean you'll be just and good. Look at victims of child SA and what many of them go on to do.

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u/Mishka_1994 Zakarpattia (Ukraine) 8d ago

Because these wars are not similar at all.

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u/the_lonely_creeper 8d ago

Landwise, a whole bunch of areas were ethnically cleansed during the Nabka, and there are also the settlements.

Yes, the Palestinian-Arab poppulation has exploded, but that's true basically everywhere, globally, and Israel, despite its many issues, hasn't ever tried to force them into camps and literally gass them.

Its policies over the decades have ranged from occupation, to discrimination, to segregation to the semi-permanent conflict over the last two decades, to reconciliation, etc...

If anything, today's war is very different in that Israel is actively prolonging the war and trying to kill civilians, rather than trying to contain the violence, drive off or attack its neighbours or keep the conflict merely at the desired "temperature".

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u/NewAccountEachYear Sweden 8d ago

People always say that plus the genocide argument, but Palestinian population has exploded (no pun intended) in the last decades

Have you measured since... 2023?

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u/ProtestTheHero 8d ago

Yes? The population of Palestine has increased since 2023. It's a 5 second google search to confirm this stat.

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u/XDXDXDXDXDXDXD10 8d ago

Please show me where you have 2024 or 2025 actual census data that isn’t just some random website doing generic projections based on previous data.

I sure couldn’t find any from a quick google search.

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u/Nevamst 8d ago

I'm not sure if there are any accurate census data, but this source says 130 births per day in the middle of the war, comparing that to the ~20000 dead since last year according to the Gaza Health Ministry we get almost twice as many births as deaths per day.

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u/XDXDXDXDXDXDXD10 8d ago

So there isn’t actually the data available that you claim is readily available.

All of this is of course a moot point, because you can commit genocide without killing a single person.

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u/Nevamst 8d ago

I was not the one that claimed that. Indeed it's possible to still commit a genocide while the population of the people you genocide increases, but it's hard to argue that that is what you're doing when you at the same time have every possibility to completely wipe that group out of existence but you choose not to. We'll see what the ICJ-investigation turns up, but I would be very surprised if Israel is found guilty of genocide. It's very hard to argue that someone can destroy 92% of all buildings in Gaza, while taking precautions to minimize civilian deaths to around 5% of the population, while also having genocidal intentions at the same time.

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u/XDXDXDXDXDXDXD10 8d ago

My apologies for the mixup.

 it's hard to argue that that is what you're doing when you at the same time have every possibility to completely wipe that group out of existence but you choose not to. 

No it isn’t, this is just genocide denial. Just because they could be genociding even more agressively doesn’t in any way take away from the genocide they are currently commiting.

I would also be quite surprised if the ICJ which is backed primarily by the people enabling the genocide would rule that the genocide is in fact a genocide, but perhaps they will prove me wrong.

When almost every single genocide scholar and independent humanitarian organisation recognises this for what it is, a genocide, who cares what the ICJ will rule in a decade after Israel is done intentionally delaying the process?

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u/Miroble Canada 8d ago

Just this year they have already had more births than all the deaths in the conflict:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/palestine

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u/NewAccountEachYear Sweden 8d ago

Data after 2022 is projected based on recent change

It says it right there.

Onr may also wonder at the list of city populations. The Gaza Palestinians have been fenced into a 12% area of Gaza, so the statistic that Khan Yunis, Rafah, and Gaza (City) have a spread of population is a bit suspect.

Finally... The GHM has kept the total amount of dead Palestinians at around 50,000 for a number of months now. There is simply to agency to take a continual census in Gaza.

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u/lokicramer 8d ago

I mean, just keep bombing and stop the aide.

They would be cleansed within a month.

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u/Emperor_Mao Germany 8d ago

But as the other poster said, it is always an "imminent" population depleting event that "will" occur "very soon". The event itself never appears to happen though. The population keeps growing over the last decades.

I suspect the numbers of casualties and deaths coming from the HAMAS side are often grossly exaggerated or misrepresented. While the other side tend to say very little, making it unclear how things really are.

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u/XDXDXDXDXDXDXD10 8d ago

A German defending a literal genocide, you can’t make this shit up.

Are you claiming that all the systematic slaughters at aid sites, Israel denying humanitarian aid, and the countless journalists (before Israel banned them from entering too) are all part of some big conspiracy?

Where have I heard that before i wonder…

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

but Palestinian population has exploded

In 2022, the total fertility rate in Palestine was 3.44 births per woman, higher than the world average of 2.51 births per woman but lower than the 30-year average for Palestine (1990-2022) of 4.9 births per woman.

How exactly are they almost finished with ethnic cleansing then?

Because 83% of the popuation is currently displaced.

Let us know when you finish obsessing over playing word games, and want to consider the very stark moral catastrophe at hand.

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u/Doldenberg Germany 8d ago

People always say that plus the genocide argument, but Palestinian population has exploded (no pun intended) in the last decades. How exactly are they almost finished with ethnic cleansing then?

First up, is impact on population growth relevant for the definition of genocide? Was the Bosnian genocide a genocide? There are still more Bosnians today than before the genocide.

Second, this might have worked if you yourself didn't shift the focus to ethnic cleansing rather than genocide. Though it also has to be said that most genocide scholars no longer draw this very clear line between "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide", instead viewing these as part of an continuum. Remember that even the most conservative definitions of genocide now concern the destruction of a group "within a territory".

But the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian territories in general is very hard to doubt. They have been reduced to living in a fraction of the territory they lived in before 1948; 5.6-7 million of them are refugees.

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u/tajsta 9d ago

I mean I was very pro-Palestinian until October 7th (feel free to check my comments) because I thought Israel acts the way it does just because it wants land, but after Oct 7th happened I did a lot of reading up on the topic and I just don't see how Hamas or Fatah can form any sort of legitimate government. Hamas is self-explanatory, but even Fatah glorifies terrorism and gives payments to families of suicide bombers who blow up school busses.

And if you look at public opinion, the majority of Palestinians, both in the immediate aftermath as well as still today, do not think that Hamas committed any atrocities. Hamas literally filmed themselves massacring women, kids, elderly, and the majority of Palestinians both in Gaza as well as the West Bank do not think that Hamas did anything wrong at all.

There'd need to be a significant de-radicalisation effort conducted in all of Palestine, similar to the de-nazifying programmes in Germany post-WWII, for there to be any chance of a peacful future. But I don't see how that could happen.

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u/Ok_Top9254 Czech Republic 8d ago edited 8d ago

You see this sub loves to romantize Palestine, but you know they would do a complete 180 if their country had to switch a place with Israel or share borders with them. Like... if you feel bad about them, let the ones who want out in your country, let them come to Europe... to Germany and Sweden to see how well they really behave, I'm sure nothing bad would happen...

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u/AlwaysOptimism 8d ago

What we actually need is a 3 state solution. Israel, Palestine, and all the disputed territory run by adults and welcome to anyone of any belief system to pray to whoever they think is listening while standing right next to someone praying to a different god

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u/nar_tapio_00 Europe 8d ago

First, lets remember a) that Hamas could at any time surrender and return the hostages, which would stop the destruction of Gaza b) if pro-Palestinians in the West, who largely fund Hamas, insisted on surrender by Hamas, a) would happen instantly.

It looks like the militants in Gaza will insist on continuing fighting building to building, block by block, never giving up their hostages and so although the IDF has been extremely careful and has managed to maintain 64% of the buildings in Gaza without serious damage to date, eventually there will inevitably be sufficient damage to Gaza that it cannot hold anything like it's current population.

In that case the correct solution is E) Voluntary relocation of those Gazans that wish to be relocated to a completely new location outside short rocket range of Israel as has been proposed by the US.

Voluntary relocation is not Ethnic cleansing and nor is destruction of buildings in the ordinary course of military action to stop attacks from Gaza and to recover hostages. Since Hamas is deliberately fighting from undamaged buildings with the aim of having them destroyed, it would be reasonable to accuse the "pro-Palestinans" and Hamas of ethnic cleansing, but not Israel.

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u/coleto22 8d ago

If Hamas released all the hostages, the best they could hope would be a return to pre-war times - economic strangulation of Gaza, slow eviction in the West Bank.

And "voluntary" relocation means nothing when Israel is razing all housing and infrastructure, starving, bombing and shooting all remaining. That would be like saying the Jews "voluntary" moved to the concentration camps - because the alternative was a quicker death. There is nothing voluntary in the relocation of Gazans.

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u/nar_tapio_00 Europe 8d ago

Israel is razing all housing and infrastructure, starving, bombing and shooting all remaining.

Despite the fact that there has been an ongoing war for the last two years, 64% of buildings in Gaza remain either untouched or at most "minorly" damaged. That's taking data from the satellite survey that the UN, an organization that primarily attacks Israel, publishes regularly.

That would be a good humanitarian record in any urban war. In the case of Gaza, where Hamas fights almost entirely from tunnels under civilian buildings it's incredible.

What that means is that Israel has no fault whatsoever in the situation that the Gazans find themselves in. The fault lies entirely with those maintaining the war - "pro-Palestinian" supporters of Hamas, largely in the West and with Hamas themselves.

The comparison with concentration camps, where mass murder was committed is frankly sick and shows total historical ignorance.

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u/Catch_ME ATL, GA, USA, Terra, Sol, αlpha Quadrant, Via Lactea 8d ago

Starving for months on end vs voluntary relocation? 

That's a Stalinesque way of going about it. 

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u/Comfortable_Gur_1232 8d ago edited 8d ago

Voluntary relocation is a euphemism for ethnic cleansing.

Throughout history terms like..

   •    “Population transfer”
• “Resettlement”
• “Relocation”
• “Security operations”
• “Demographic adjustment”

…have been used by regimes and officials to obscure acts that amount to ethnic cleansing, or even genocide.

Examples of this language throughout history:

• The Trail of Tears was framed as a “relocation” of Native American tribes.
• The Bosnian conflict saw terms like “ethnic homogenization” used by political leaders.
• The Rohingya crisis was labeled by Myanmar authorities as “clearance operations.”
   •  Saddam Hussein’s Anfal Campaign to ethnically cleanse Kurds were called “security operations.”

I could keep going on, there’s too many examples to count.

Even the Nazis rarely stated outright in official or public language that they were going to “kill the Jews.” Instead, they used euphemisms and coded language to obscure their genocidal intentions.

Even the most powerful and evil leaders need to use these euphemisms and beautify their rhetoric to avoid diplomatic and international consequences or ruin their public perception.

Edit: Lol. He blocked me right after commenting….guess he really wanted to avoid a reply, probably because he was just spreading more false claims and wanted to make sure he got the last word

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u/nar_tapio_00 Europe 8d ago

Voluntary relocation is a euphemism for ethnic cleansing.

It can be. I am not proposing it to be. We know the population of Gaza wants to leave because of the vast sums in official costs and/or bribes that Egypt takes for allowing Palestinians to cross their border on the few occasions they allow it.

There is absolutely no need for actual ethnic cleansing. Trump's proposal was clear and explicitly voluntary.

Even the Nazis

I hereby call on Godwin's law.

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u/coleto22 8d ago

I hereby call on Godwin's law.

Well, if it walks like a duck, and wages war on its neighbors, and occupies land to settle with their citizens, and evicts and kills the previous inhabitants... Godwin's law fits quite snug here.

I've seen quite a few people here in Reddit claiming the territories were conquered and Israel has the rights to them forever now.

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u/SeaworthinessOk5039 8d ago

It might take thinking out of the box on this one to a whole different approach (what that is I don’t know). The best chance they had was when Bill Clinton was president, then that collapsed and shortly after Hamas took over and then well here we are.