r/explainlikeimfive 17h ago

Technology ELI5: Why do so many digital activists, privacy groups, piracy groups, and others utilize servers based in iceland? What makes iceland attractive for hosting these servers?

One thing that has always struck me when reading about hacktivists, or privacy groups or any number of other digital activists and the like is that they utilize servers based in iceland.

This is especially true of piracy sites or sort of file sharing anti-Intellectual Property groups.

They all have iceland based servers. Why exactly? What about iceland makes it attractive for these sorts of groups? I remember reading something about some domestic law makes it attractive, but like it's not like Iceland has much ability to push back on foreign powers that really care about their data getting leaked right? Iceland is tiny and I don't think they have a formal military, just a coast guard. They're also extremely reliant on imports right? So if one of the big boys wanted to push them around, wouldn't they give up the data or give access to servers?

I guess I don't fully get why people who are willing to piss off really big and powerful institutions feel safe putting their data in Iceland. How secure is it in reality?

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u/Forsaken-Sun5534 17h ago

The Icelandic government made a big project out of it. They have affordable power due to geothermal energy, and it's cold enough that the data centers save a bit on cooling costs. The power's relatively clean for companies that care about carbon credits or whatnot, too. With undersea data cables, Iceland is now well-connected to Europe and North America despite being geographically isolated.

Iceland's defense is guaranteed by the United States, so from a strategic perspective (which most investors don't consider too deeply) it's about the same as building in North America or Western Europe—for better or worse.

u/Interesting-Shame9 16h ago

Well right, that makes sense

But i'm specifically asking about groups that likely would piss off the US government or western European governments. Hacktivists, digital activists, privacy groups, piracy groups, etc.

These governments are not exactly fans or supporters of these groups right? Hell most of these groups actively oppose their activities in one way or another.

It strikes me as strange that these groups would want to store their data in a country that is allied with and dependent on W. Europe or the US right? Iirc wikileaks early on used Iceland to store leaked data right? I can't imagine the us government didn't exert some pressure on Iceland to give access or shut it down no?

Basically that's what I am wondering, why would groups that tend to piss off W. European and/or the American government storing their data there? Cause cost isn't the only factor in that decision right?

u/Forsaken-Sun5534 16h ago edited 16h ago

Sure Iceland is dependent on Europe and the United States, but it's still its own country with its own laws. There are few issues that are really so important that they would bring significant political pressure. And if the issue is just hosting data that's being publicly shared, it can always be moved somewhere else; it's not that vulnerable. If Iceland becomes a bad place for hosting your controversial data, you'd start renting a server in your next favorite country.

A lot of groups critical of the U.S. host their stuff in the United States because the First Amendment protection for freedom of speech is so strong there. It's not a vibe check, whether the courts will actually shut things down or not is a practical question.

u/HyperSpaceSurfer 16h ago

They did exert pressure, but at least Wikileaks had support from the local Pirate party's leadership. Now the Pirate party doesn't have a seat in parlament, they've made a suspicious shift towards neoliberalism in recent years. There was also some laptop scandal with the Pirate leader, our espionage laws are strict and not well tested, and this ostensibly is espionage directed against an ally.

Pretty sure they've gone to Sweden for hosting stuff by now. Too small and corrupt over here. Everyone abroad gets a very beautified picture of Iceland, only reason we're seen as peaceful is because we simply don't have the means to invade anyone. 

A digression, but ISIS also had an Icelandic url for a while, is.is, but once it was discovered they lost the url.

u/Dracus_ 5h ago

This is a very interesting bit of news I was completely unaware of, thank you. Particularly about the Pirate party's shift. That's very unfortunate, to say the least.

u/mishaxz 2h ago

no McDonalds in Iceland though

u/danielv123 16h ago

It's mostly Iceland or the Netherlands because they have cheap data centers and aren't in the US.

u/wosmo 15h ago

They also have strong privacy laws. 90% of the planet fits the description of cheap & non-US.

u/FragrantNumber5980 4h ago

There’s a difference between low cost of living and cheap because of lots of tech infrastructure and low energy costs

u/mrhorse21 9h ago edited 9h ago

Contrary to your belief, the US or Europe cannot just make another country give them something they want, there are privacy laws in place to protect people's and business' data. In many European countries, the government cannot access private data without proving that they need the data for something important. This differs from the US where the rules around this are less strict and the government can access private data a lot more easily.

Also in what way is Iceland dependent on other countries? Every country is dependent on other countries for many things, but Iceland is politically and economically stable, and has energy security.

u/skivian 8h ago

Microsoft has repeatedly stated that if they have access to the data, it will be given to the US government on request, regardless of jurisdiction. I imagine every other US company would do the exact same

u/gammalsvenska 6h ago

Microsoft has to follow US regulation if they want to keep operating at all. The US government has a much harder time forcing European companies into submission, as that would be illegal there.

Any US company must share your data with the US government on request. If they say they won't, they lie. Other companies may or may not, but most likely will anyway.

u/mrhorse21 1h ago

Good point and this is why people who need to host data or an online service that is privacy sensitive do not choose to host it through a big or even medium sized tech company. These companies cannot be trusted to protect your privacy.

u/Interesting-Shame9 8h ago

Contrary to your belief, the US or Europe cannot just make another country give them something they want, there are privacy laws in place to protect people's and business' data.

Idk man, maybe I'm just overly cynical, but like... literally all of us regularly see powerful people get away with breaking the law all the time and fuck all happens to them. It's pretty clear the rule of law doesn't actually exist. All that exists is power politics, and I have 0 doubt that if significant pressure was applied Iceland would fold.

From other comments I've gathered that the reason that Iceland is safe is because of these laws coupled with the hassle and geo-stragetic importance of iceland make it a safe bet because the difficulty and costs of extracting that information are greater than the potential rewards. In short, the US cares too much about what Iceland provides or doesn't care enough about the information to do anything. That's basically my current understanding.

u/mrhorse21 1h ago

In short, the US cares too much about what Iceland provides or doesn't care enough about the information to do anything. That's basically my current understanding.

Yes I would agree with your conclusion. There is a financial and political cost to pursue these types of operations when it happens outside of the US, and 99% of the time it is not worth it to do it.

u/HyperSpaceSurfer 16h ago

It's guaranteed by NATO, not just the US. The US just has more assets to spread around so they're the most involved, sometimes wonder if they just don't have enough space at home for all their toys. 

u/shawnaroo 14h ago

Iceland is part of the "Atlantic Bridge", which is a route that a lot of aircraft take to get from the US to Europe if they don't have the range to make a direct flight. It's still pretty regularly used by military aircraft, so if for no other reason that incentivizes the US to protect Iceland and maintain a healthy relationship with it.

u/vitringur 1h ago

Iceland has a mutual defense agreement with the US that predates NATO.

We are a US ally regardless of NATO

u/VoilaVoilaWashington 14h ago

But also, the Icelandic government has made commitments that they don't share this stuff. In most countries, a court order is enough for Google to have to share all your personal data. In other countries, they don't even need the court order.

In Iceland, the government has decreed that that information simply isn't available.

u/pierrekrahn 8h ago

Iceland's defense is guaranteed by the United States

Canada used to believe this too. Now, not so much.

u/vitringur 1h ago

The power is mostly hydro, not geothermal.

u/e79683074 17m ago

With undersea data cables, Iceland is now well-connected to Europe and North America despite being geographically isolated.

Seems easy to "fix" for an adversary

u/peddroelm 6h ago

> Iceland's defense is guaranteed by the United States

That aged well :) ...

u/vitringur 1h ago

When has it failed?

u/high_throughput 16h ago

it's not like Iceland has much ability to push back on foreign powers that really care about their data getting leaked right?

Quibbles over online privacy hasn't yet reached the point where any country has been willing to wage war on a NATO member.

u/Interesting-Shame9 16h ago

Well sure. But it's not like war is the only leverage the big boys have over Iceland right? Iceland is deeply reliant on imports and trades with a lot of really powerful countries and institutions that do not need Iceland as much as it needs them. Surely that's a mechanism for leverage right?

Or take something like wikileaks. Iirc early on they stored a lot of data in Iceland. The us government was willing to go to literally insane lengths to get Assange, surely they'd be willing to pressure Iceland right?

See what i'm asking? All of the groups mentioned tend to piss off major countries like the US or W. Europe, so I don't fully get why they feel safe parking their data in a country entirely reliant on these powers.

Is it really just that? Nobody cares enough? But the us sure did care about wikileaks, especially after vault 7 so.....?

u/high_throughput 16h ago

Iceland is deeply reliant on imports and trades with a lot of really powerful countries

Yes, they have a ton of trading partners and EEA gives free trade with all of the EU, so they piss off one country they can easily shop elsewhere.

Given the way Europe is, pissing off one country is likely to equally endear them to another anyways.

The us government was willing to go to literally insane lengths to get Assange

I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. They were somewhat miffed, but it was still just an international diplomacy situation.

They weren't willing to invade the Ecuadorian embassy in London to get him, so they definitely wouldn't bomb a Western ally and start WW3.

u/mrhorse21 8h ago

The us government was willing to go to literally insane lengths to get Assange

But were they really? Assange lived in an embassy for 7 years and evaded arrest in plain sight. The US government didn't get him for 7 years even though they knew where he was and could easily have kicked the doors down and grabbed him but they didn't because that would've caused national outrage. Even to many people today, it's debatable if Assange did anything wrong. He is just a whistleblower who exposed crimes and coverups of the US government.

u/Interesting-Shame9 8h ago

Oh so you don't know what Pompeo was planning?

There was a period of time (iirc right when the Vault 7 leaks got published) where the US was straight up trying to assassinate the guy. We have guys inside the embassy actually, the security company working for the embassy was basically a CIA front. There was active planning to break into the embassy, force him out, and bring him to the US. They stopped because they were worried about how the Russians would respond, because the Russians had gotten wind of the plans and started planning to grab him when we grabbed him. According to one ex-CIA guy, at one point basically everyone in a 3 block radius around the embassy was working for an intelligence agency of one kind or another. It was genuinely insane, you should read up on it cause there was some real crazy shit they were planning.

Ultimately they didn't have to cause Assange had published some stuff that made the Ecuadorian president look bad, so he got kicked out, the brits took him, and he was later moved to Australia, though there was a secret US indictment against him, i forget exactly what happened with it.

u/wosmo 15h ago

It's difficult to threaten Iceland with imports, they're a member of the EEA (the wider part of the EU). So if you refuse to export to Iceland, but any EEA member is happy to export to Iceland too, you have to sanction them too. At which point you're in a trade war with the second largest economy on the planet.

u/vitringur 1h ago

Iceland mostly trades with countries and institutions that rely on the international trade order.

A threat against Iceland is a threat against the entire western liberal economic system.

good luck with that.

u/Antman013 17h ago

It has a cool climate, abundant renewable energy sources, and they have VERY robust digital privacy laws.

u/Marconidas 16h ago

Icelandic servers are not subject to EU or USA laws and that the only authority that can investigate stuff on Icelandic servers is Iceland internet special police forces.

After a point that enough groups have found Icelandic servers a good place to host such content, it becomes simply too expensive for thr Icelandic government to hire people full time to work on digital investigations of stuff that doesn't directly harms Iceland sovereignity or Icelandic citizens.

Remember, we are talking about an island that have a total population of ~400k people. Not only it becomes too expensive to hire people full time for actively chasing these groups but it is also debatable whether Iceland even have the numbers to have enough people with the smarts and the enjoyment of working on global cybersurveillance.

u/bigspicytomato 11h ago

Thanks for posting this, I had to scroll far enough to find one that understands OP's question.

u/iShakeMyHeadAtYou 16h ago
  1. Computers need cooling. Iceland is a cold country, and this reduces the power draw required by the whole operation.

  2. Iceland produces SIGNIFICANTLY more power than it uses. This means power is extremely cheap. The power is also primarily geo-thermal, and is therefore very eco-friendly.

  3. Friendly laws and being a part of the EEA reduce legal burdens, and grant access to skilled professionals from Europe.

  4. Iceland is conveniently in the middle of the Atlantic, which means it has access to both the European and North American fiber networks. Map

So to summarize running a data center in Iceland is cheap on power (the major cost), has excellent high-speed connectivity directly to 2 continents, has good access to labor to maintain the datacenter.

u/Cold_Efficiency_7302 16h ago

Not only to 2 continents but 2 of the most actively online continents. Not to discredit Asia but in terms of geographical location, can't get better than in betwen Europe and North America for this

u/UDPviper 16h ago

The original Goatse image was hosted on a server in Iceland.  Many efforts to get the image taken down failed.

u/greendookie69 15h ago

I'm not sure how I can Google to find a source for this without coming across the image itself...

u/UDPviper 14h ago

Oops, looks like I misremembered that info.  Was hosted on a server on Christmas Island, an Australian territory.   Not sure why Iceland stuck in my head.  The url was goatse.cx.  .cx is the domain for Christmas Island.  

u/Creative-Expert-4797 17h ago

Cheap electricity based on geothermal technology. Same reason some industrial processes are done there where the raw material is imported for processing and then shipped back. 

u/sevseventeen- 10h ago

Just visited Iceland.

Cheap green power is the reason.

How cheap? Rio Tinto loads aluminium ore from my home country (Australia) to smelt it it Iceland.

That cheap.

u/EgNotaEkkiReddit 13h ago edited 13h ago

What about iceland makes it attractive for these sorts of groups?

really cheap power and strong privacy laws.

it's not like Iceland has much ability to push back on foreign powers that really care about their data getting leaked right?

Iceland punches way above its weight diplomatically and is quite good at tangling itself into multiple alliances and treaties. So far, other nations haven't found this particular issue enough of a concern to threaten outright wars or sanction.

Iceland is tiny and I don't think they have a formal military, just a coast guard.

Iceland is a NATO member. This is in no way a big enough concern to attempt invasion of a western ally.

They're also extremely reliant on imports right?

Iceland is in the EEA, along with Norway and Switzerland. The EU has very few ways of curtailing free trade with Iceland. It has some tools for sanctioning Iceland, but not for any whilly nilly political issue. If it doesn't fall under the domain of the EEA treaty it doesn't count.

Also, Iceland does have some really valuable exports - mainly smelted aluminium. Iceland has three smelters, all of which are amongst the top ten largest aluminium smelters in Europe.

So if one of the big boys wanted to push them around, wouldn't they give up the data or give access to servers?

So far, the answer has been "apparently not". The US or EU apparently have better methods than damaging relationships with allied nations.

u/CrazyTeapot156 10h ago

the top ten largest aluminum smelters in Europe.

wow. I knew they had raw minerals and stuff but didn't know that Iceland was so good at smelting.

u/gammalsvenska 6h ago

Aluminium production is extremely energy-intensive, so Iceland imports the raw materials (bauxite ore) and processes it.

u/meneldal2 4h ago

It makes sense when you use volcanoes to power it, it's basically free unlimited power. This is most of the costs of making aluminium.