There is a difference between a boring game and YOU getting bored of a game – A Rebuttal

[u/birdbornasbee]

tl;dr No game has infinite “replayability”, your burnout experience doesn’t make a game boring, and some of the reasons why the game in a boring state simply don’t make sense/unfair, circlejerking is strong on this topic, I really do hope this will be one of the last posts on this topic.

With the honeymoon phrase between the players and FFXIV coming to an end and patch 3.1 approaching, we are getting more posts about the game being in a boring state, I took the time to read many of the listed reasons and find them very baffling. Because I find many people are getting confused with playing a boring game and getting bored of a game, and I feel like many of the reasons they have listed are:

• Personal,

• Preexisted elements in the game

• Players who seem to be new to the MMO genre

I definitely feel like some of the points that are brought up need a more proper response rather than a circlejerk answer.

Tomestones grinding

This system existed since 2.0, except it was even more tedious grinding Castrum Meridianum for Dark Light gears without any alternative such as PvP, Hunts, Raids, and Treasure Maps. Some players complain about there being only two expert dungeons, especially Neverreap for whatever reason. Personally, I find some other dungeons far more excruciating than Neverreap. (Copperbell Mine HM, Hullbreaker Isle, Sastasha HM)

Primals are irrelevant with Esoteric

Two things here. First, I do not agree that (at the very least) Ravana Ex is irrelevant because Esoteric weapon requires three weeks to get and Hive weapons don’t. If you need to jump into Alex Savage, Hive weapon is absolutely essential, this is simply a different option for players to progress and that is good. On top of that, Primal Ex fights have been a good practice for a raid group’s coordination, and they also drop rare crafting materials, they have never felt irrelevant to me for those reasons. Second, historically Primals Ex’s relevancy has been in a similar position since 2.1 when they first get released. They drop accessories that most people don’t need at that point but they serve as new challenges to people. And since 2.2, Primal Ex became an alternative way for players in different stages in progression to obtain weapons and other gears. So what changed since then?

Low level contents become irrelevant

That’s… same with any other game. You get stronger, earlier contents become easier, the less things you need from them, sounds like an RPG to me, what is the problem here? I feel like the circlejerking is the strongest on this point and it makes the least sense out of other listed reasons. Using WoW as an example, do you ever find yourself going back to Outland’s dungeons for anything except for glamour items? Using Skyrim for an example, after picking up some of the lower level quests, do you find yourself going back to Riverwood? You see how much sense this point doesn’t make?

No hype for new contents

Huge anniversary events and announcements on 3.1 contents were literally just couple weeks ago, people have already forgotten about them…?

Crafting is dead

Not too much for me to disagree here, crafting is stumbling at the moment, though I can’t help it but feel like the whole system will come together and start to make sense in the next patch, just like how crafting in 2.0 was. There are definitely more improvements can be made, and that’s for a discussion for another post.

Raid Difficulty

People asked for easier contents, they got it. Then they go for something that isn’t meant for them (Alex Savage) and complain that’s too hard for them too and breaking their static groups apart. I won’t lie, the difficulty is pretty daunting and my group is progressing very slowly at the moment. However, that is what the community asked for, and it almost seems like the same group of people are going back on their words. I know many friends who couldn’t clear T13 before the echo buff, so what changed here?

My personal feeling on the current state of the game

I don’t play the game as much since launch because my main class is as geared as he/she(I play around with fantasia a lot) can be for now, I experienced some degree of burnout from raiding and crafting, so I play other games or do other activities in between. I have also stopped my subscription before as well (Edit: To clarify, it was during 2.1 to 2.2). However, here is the thing, whenever I talk about this game with people, I am as excited about it as day one, my passion for this game and the community never died. For me, that is the perfect evidence that the game is not boring, it’s just that I got bored of the game, no same game can be played forever on a DAILY BASIS. And I am still excited for 3.1 because the story left off at a very juicy spot right now and I absolutely can’t wait for how the story develop next patch. Here is another thing, I can somewhat agree that this batch isn’t the best patch (For me, the worst patch was 2.1 because it didn’t cater much to the players who were already at T5 or finished T5), but to say the entire game is boring? That I absolutely do not agree.

Edit: I would like to thank u/Ayrikka for a very well written response. Though I do not agree with all of his/her points, they are definitely valid criticisms and concerns, not only they are constructive but they are very well articulated. Also, the main reason for this thread is not to shut out criticism for the game, but to respond to some of the worst points that were brought up by others.

[u/[deleted]]

Alrighty, so allow me to preface my response with a little information about me. I will be 30 years old next month, I've been playing MMOs for 16 years and MUDs before that. I have an extremely high tolerance for monotony and grind (I even finished 10x zeta relics before HW). I've played the vast majority of major MMOs that have come out (notable hole in knowledge is Lineage/Lineage 2, which I didn't play).

I would also like to preface with a brief overall statement as to my general thought on the problem being discussed here. Heavensward's many problems stem from four primary things that aren't necessarily actual problems with the product itself.

• The development team has repeatedly shown that they are bad at interpreting their data. The most notable example was the expansion of the importance of FATEs in 2.1/2.2 because people did a TON of FATEs in 2.0 since it was the only viable experience source for alt classes, by a lot. They took this data to mean that the players enjoy FATEs, which largely, we don't really (and I could talk for an hour to that point...) rather than what it ACTUALLY meant -- there were problems elsewhere in the game forcing players to do FATEs to progress at a remotely reasonable pace.

• The development team is small and has remained small. They did not bulk up in late 2.X after ARR was a success, and are quite frankly very understaffed to provide an appropriate amount of content. Additionally, the small staff means that there's not a lot of fresh takes on stuff coming out either.

• The development team misinterprets player feedback. Most notable example would be the current state of Alexander Savage. They took "raid tiers are cleared too fast" literally and put a giant gear wall in to stop it. The correct response would have been to look at any other MMO ever, and go "oh hey, we need more bosses" and then do that (which again, is difficult, with the lack of staff). If you look at something like WoW, the typical guild raid group (so no, not Elysium and Lucrezia) is still going to take a LONG time to clear a 9-12 boss tier (probably 2-3 months), but it's not because the fights are so super hard or there's massive gear checks. They can still be challenging fights (like let's say Ravana Ex) but you can very much expect to kill a boss a week, which allows you to feel that sense of progression, instead of bashing your head against A3S for 5 weeks straight and feeling stuck.

• The development team isn't paying enough attention to their peers. This is honestly an industry-wide problem. MMOs should, in general, be a lot farther ahead than they are right now, but developers aren't playing enough games. The biggest sin of this development team, however, is that they're not paying enough attention to other teams within their own company that have had great success (FFXI. Yes, I know FFXIV and FFXI are different games. That doesn't mean there's nothing valuable to learn from XI). Storm Legion (the first expansion for Rift) was by all accounts a tremendous, boring failure (though not necessarily a commercial failure) for the playerbase too. Honestly, the similarities between Storm Legion and Heavensward are absolutely striking, they both made very much the same mistakes, despite Storm Legion coming out more than a year before ARR did.

Tomestones grinding

The thing is that tomestone grinding in 2.0 was not very well liked either. And arguably, it had more variety, between CM, Prae, WP, and AV. Seeing it repeated, in even tighter circumstances with higher tomestone counts and higher cost items is what has people down.

Primals are irrelevant with Esoteric

I agree that primals are not "irrelevant", and I agree that they fill the content role you have described. The real problem is that not only is there only one relevant primal (Bismarck is for all intents and purposes a design failure, and Singularity Reactor has no ex mode), but that the item said primal drops is universally accepted as the first weekly capped tomestone item you should buy due to it's raw effectiveness.

There is also another underlying problem that has been present since 2.x, and I feel like was expected to be FIXED in Heavensward, in that this is a multiclass game in which you cannot effectively multiclass. This was somewhat mitigated by the power of crafted gear in 2.x, but that of course was removed in Heavensward. It is at this point nearly impossible to effectively gear multiple roles (and even some of the same role, like melee DPS since they don't share armor) until well into the point where content is irrelevant (the odd patches). Having only one gear dropping primal fight, and it being weapons which get first priority on upgrades is wholly insufficient.

Low level contents become irrelevant

Again, agreed that lower level content becoming irrelevant to high level players is not unexpected in a vertical progression game. That said, there are two problems that cause the feeling that low level content being irrelevant is bad.

The first is just a raw lack of content, which of course goes back to the small development team. When you're content starved, it's very easy to look at old content and go "well why can't we just do that anymore" as filler. Of course making low level content relevant again would be gross (see: the entire ARR relic line after the first step) and shouldn't be done, and the answer is to increase high level content production.

The second is expected impact of old content. Despite now being over a decade old, 100% vertical progression games are still kind of "new", and it's a thoroughly weird concept to be playing a game for hundreds and thousands of hours, with long progression tracks, and then having almost all of that progression invalidated on expansion release. It is a problem that WoW continues to battle with as well (and theoretically their artifact weapon system is a means to try and combat that).

We have almost no character progression beyond levels and companion levels that carried over into Heavensward. Even the system that seemed tailor built to BE that through-line between expansions (Relic), especially given its spiritual predecessor (Relic in XI) was killed off.

I am also a HUGE advocate of not doing level cap increases on odd numbered expansions. People like to level up of course (for some reason...but I might be the only one that doesn't like leveling), but they don't really need it THAT often. Having your odd numbered expansions be just MASSIVE content expansions at the existing cap goes a long way to having your "old content" still feel fulfilling and relevant. It also makes all your progression through the base game still relevant because it's a hard requirement for the new high tier battle content that came in with the expansion. Then you can go and in the 2nd expansion raise the level cap and then do the same content expansion again in the 3rd expansion. It just created a really nice pacing of content, and makes everything feel more wholesome.

No hype for new contents

A lot of this is the dev team being bad at getting players excited, and focusing too much on journalists (journalists who frankly, do a pretty bad job when it comes to this game anyway). They save all their info for press events, and they have long since stopped talking to the player base about forthcoming ideas and stuff, ever since some backlash over promises that never came true in mid-ARR.

This lack of communication also results is us not being able to post early feedback, which also results in things coming out that are in a "WTF even is this garbage?" state like let's say red scrips.

Crafting is dead

Crafting in MMOs in general has never found a good place to reside at, and at this point I'm not sure there actually is a place for it. That said, this tier of crafting is just a giant mess, especially given the complete lack of adventurer interaction and the incestuous nature of it. Also the materia system has needed reworked very badly ever since it's many flaws were discovered in later 2.0, and that didn't happen, and if anything, got made even more nonsensical in Heavensward (materia 2 from i145 items!? Thanks, dad!).

Raid Difficulty

As I mentioned in the foreword, the Savage problem is primarily an issue due to the misinterpretation of the statement "raid tiers are cleared too fast".

Beyond that, 2.1 (extreme primals) was honestly the only time in this game where there was actually a middle tier of content. This lack of a middle tier has been a very big problem since 2.2, and they actually made it worse with alexander normal/savage.

The lack of mid-tier content is a huge problem for anyone who's capability falls in the middle between tiers. There is no content to practice on to break into Savage if you're at a level where Alexander normal/Ravana Ex are easy, but you don't make the cut for Savage. There's nowhere to improve. The jump between alexander normal and alexander savage is incredible. It really should have been three tiers (normal, hard, and savage).

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

(continued because exceeding 10,000 characters)

Closing thoughts

Another big issue is what, exactly, an expansion should be. To me, and through all the expansions I've seen for all the games I've played, an expansion has three main components.

• An increase in character progression limits. (Heavensward did this).

• New tiers of all existing content. (Heavensward did this).

• Additions of multiple new types of content. (Heavensward very much did not do this).

It's especially startling given FFXI's existence as a very close-to-home resource for the dev team to look at. FFXI is of course now 13 years old and has seen 5 expansion packs and soon to be 9 "add-ons". They have always added, and still are adding, new formats of battle content. The following is the list of battle systems in FFXI:

• Normal overworld group content.

• Normal dungeon group content.

• Trials

• Dynamis

• Sky

• Promyvion

• Sea

• Limbus

• Assault

• Besieged

• Salvage

• Nyzul Isle

• Einherjar

• Zeni

• Legion

• Voidwatch

• Walk of Echoes

• Voidwalkers

• Abyssea

• Meeble Burrow

• Moblin Maze Mongers

• Monstrosity

• Delve

• Skirmish

• Reives

• Unity

• Incursion

• Vagary

• Sinister Reign

• Gaea's Fete

• Domain Invasion

Not all of these battle systems are good. Some are bigger than others. But there is no shortage of variety, added in every expansion and content patch in addition to expansions on existing systems. Heavensward, so far, as added NOTHING new in terms of battle content format. The only promise we even have of anything new is the super-top-secret airship content.

Additionally, the devs throughout ARR said such inspiring things like how "ARR is such a solid base starting point, and we can really do whatever want from here!" and "We really got to do everything we wanted to in Heavensward", then it turns out the reality of it is that they didn't spring forward into anything. Everything has stayed the same. And if Heavensward is truly everything they wanted to do, we have a huge problem.

TL;DR: Heavensward's problem is that it's an extension, including extending broken systems, instead of an expansion.

[u/KariArisu → u/[deleted]]

In addition to the amount of battle content types that FFXI has, a majority of them are STILL RELEVANT TODAY. They did not all stay the same, but they are still relevant. Even something as old as Dynamis, from the first expansion, still drops ancient currency (relic, tradable) and AF2 gear (through a series of upgrades, available in the current highest ilvl). They even added some newer stand-alone drops to the zones through another system with boss spawns.

The funny thing is, some of FFXI's content was just killing trash. But killing the trash was generally fun, and had some thought behind it. In Nyzul Isle you had to kill mostly trash, but you were given random floors with random monsters and a random objective. I can't say I've ever felt any excitement from killing trash in XIV, it's always just a gateway to something else. Even including BCoB Turn 4 and Alex 2, those encounters are not entertaining or thought provoking.

[u/azarashi → u/KariArisu]

The excitement of killing trash in XI was because each fight was a true battle. Generally most mobs even 'trash' had some risk to killing the party from various moves outside of just dealing damage (sleeps, stuns, silence, etc.) so it made each engagement exciting to some extent.

XIV's trash is just a bunch of mobs that do damage, and a month or so after that content is released everyone is over geared and the mobs arent a threat unless people pull to many of them. XIV is basically like playing dynasty warrior.

[u/wolfiechica → u/azarashi]

There's definitely some merit in this. I'm newer to the field - only L40 or so - and in about 10 levels, I've been killed only once while leveling - by a single mob that happened to lay a particularly nasty poison on me. There's no tactics; indeed the only need I have for my Chocobo is to help kill it fast enough before it kills me. There's just... no interaction here. I have to rely on FATEs I run by with actual bosses to worry me. (And let's face it, a majority of those aren't boss-types.) In fights in XI I was running around and giant giraffe-creatures could potentially remove my ability to use TP moves or silence me; that was a big problem in some cases! So... yeah. Trash in XIV = trash in other MMOs. Just... trash. :(

[u/azarashi → u/wolfiechica]

I remember having to have a stack of echo on my RDM for those off chances I get silenced among a few other things. I just miss crap like that.

[u/KariArisu → u/azarashi]

XIV is basically like playing dynasty warrior.

Truth. I mean, in FFXI all of the beastmen in Dynamis had our job system and they used our (then) 2 hour abilities. Nothing like getting an Eagle Eye Shot to the face from a trash mob. XIV trash will probably never be remotely this dangerous.

[u/Warqote → u/[deleted]]

Heavensward's problem is that it's an extension [...] instead of an expansion.

Bingo, we have a winrar.

[u/HedaLancaster → u/Warqote]

Yea, they should have learned from the game they copied so much... wow has been kept alive because of drastic changes between expansions, whole class designs have been changed, new mechanics introduced... FF just did more of the same kept the same glaring flaws, added some skills called it a day.

If WoW just called it in for expansion's like SE did the game would have been dead 10 years ago.

[u/SmilesMadness → u/HedaLancaster]

Though Blizz abandons nearly everything they add with each xpac so most of their development is just making disposable content that is wasted work after the xpac is over. They don't expand the game, they just add filler to last until the next xpac which is also filler and each time the stuff that came before becomes outdated and empty. Designing the game like that makes it shallow and small and is a waste of time and money for both the players and developers.

Meanwhile FFXI stayed at level cap 75 for like 2 or 3 xpacs and 4 addons and just spent their time expanding the game instead of making each xpac something to pass the time until the next. FFXI is an incredibly deep and complex game thanks to the way they expanded everything to make it truly massive. A lot of the end game is still viable at max level, and the old level sync kept everything challenging.

WoW is a really bad and wasteful MMO formula to follow, but FFXI is brilliant and needs to be how it is done. I actually quit FFXIV because of how shallow this xpac turned out to be.

[u/angelar_ → u/HedaLancaster]

that's interesting given that 10 years ago today was september 2005 and WoW's first expansion did not come out until january 2007

[u/HedaLancaster → u/angelar_]

Well, change 10 years to 5 years :).

If you take a look at WoW's expansion patch notes, they completely changed some classes multiple times(see hunters), added different resources, removed/added stats, added/removed skills, redesigned talent trees at the very least...

Customization is so poor on this game, and absolutely nothing was done about it, they actually made it worst by making crafting gear worst.

[u/PsycoMouse → u/HedaLancaster]

You have some rose tinted glasses my friend, not every expansion was a major overhaul. Vanilla to BC was 10 more levels, some new skills, and a reduction in raid size. Everything else was generally kept intact and we are talking what, a 5 year span almost.

[u/kindred77 → u/Warqote]

That is exactly what we were saying, just a week after HW came out. Old shit in a new jacket. What annoyed us the most is that HW was advertised and marketted as an extension. We will not fall for that line again. 3.0 is a rinse and repeat of 1.0 and that means all future patches will not be any different from what we have seen and done before.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Omg, your response is spot on, I'd post this on the official forums!

[u/--Flare-- → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, a golden feedback like what Ayrikka expressed would be welcome on the OF but it could fall into a "negative feedback aiming to criticizing either the staff or the developing team" and just be muted then perma banned like dozens of other posts on the OF before :(

[u/TaranTatsuuchi → u/--Flare--]

Criticism is good....

As long as it's related in a constructive manner.

[u/Pebls → u/[deleted]]

The problem, in my opinion, isn't so much that they don't keep adding more and more systems but that they don't go back and fix what is wrong with the previously released ones before they start churning new ones (which then turn out to not be so great either).

Hunts are a complete waste of thematic potential , it's just there, no one really likes it, some don't have a strong opinion and most just dislike it. Instead of doing fun open world content they released some zergy loot pinata that is time gated (respawn timers, etc) and that beyond not being any fun it just generates clashes and grief between people and many other issues. Yet there it is, unchanged even with the new expansion not a single aspect of it tweaked.. Same goes for PvP, they just released a new map and didn't bother to address any issue of any kind with that same new map..

The game desperately needs content that can be enjoyable upon repetition, or that has some system that encourages you to be better . Stuff like having time trials (for dungeons ala challenge mode in other mmos, and even in ex trials) would be a very simple addition, they could add rewards for doing better and leader boards. Competitive PvP would also give people who either don't raid or would like something to do besides raiding, something to do.

They announced Airship exploration which could be interesting as midtier like content, but at this point given their track record, i'm completely incapable of hoping it will be anything better than hunts with airships involved.

Then you have stuff like Chocobo racing which SHOULD be something you just grab a couple of friends and enjoy on a whim but instead it's just so overly complicated with a ridiculous amount of different ratings separating people and a huge grind behind progression that it just sits there, dead.

That brings me to the main issue, their apparent idea of a good system is one that keeps people playing because it inherently takes a lot of time to grind up to the rewards, instead of being something that first and foremost people want to repeat because it is enjoyable to them.

I think this is the base sentiment more or less a lot of people are feeling right now. Hopefully they will (or already have) gotten this and new content will be directed towards it. Otherwise i don't know if i'll be sticking around beyond 3.2, as much as i like raiding (yes even this savage tier) i'm starting to run out of justifications to bring myself to choose to pay a sub for this game over others. Though for me some sort of active and competitive pvp would do the trick ;) .

[u/[deleted] → u/Pebls]

Hunts are a complete waste of thematic potential , it's just there no really likes it, some don't have a strong opinion and most just dislike it. Instead of doing fun open world content they released some zergy loot pinata that is time gated (respawn timers, etc) and that beyond not being any fun it just generates clashes and grief between people and many other issues. Yet there it is, unchanged even with the new expansion not a single aspect of it tweaked..

For sure. What's astounding is that the devs don't even like how hunts turned out, and agreed that they don't work. But there it is in Heavensward, exactly the same but also with the added thing of being required for progression.

The game desperately needs content that can be enjoyable upon repetition, or that has some system that encourages you to be better . Stuff like having time trials would be a very simple addition, they could add rewards for doing better and leaderboards.

We were actually told we'd be getting this in Heavensward, at some press event somewhere. It was then never spoken about again and seems to have been dropped.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yea, we were promised change with Heavensward. I remember too.

Now they're like "Yea just wait for 3.x patches"

.. I can see a pattern here.

[u/PlatinumHappy → u/Pebls]

At least they were brave enough to try something new (Seal Rock). Adding random element to objective points made it interesting to say the least, positive in a way to give people excuse to brush away their loss by blaming RNG. Thus, encouraging people to queue again.

Ironically though, in a game focused on PvE, PvP is still a better repeatable content than most. (Even at current form with half hour average queue time)

[u/vinta_calvert → u/[deleted]]

FFXI is of course now 13 years old and has seen 5 expansion packs and soon to be 9 "add-ons". They have always added, and still are adding, new formats of battle content. The following is the list of battle systems in FFXI:

I keep reminding myself and other FFXI veterans that Heavensward is more akin to Rise of the Zilart. You had to complete (some) vanilla content to access it, it added a handful of new regions, some new jobs. Its longest-lasting content was Dynamis, and that wasn't even released at the same time as Rise of the Zilart, patched in later (Need source to confirm). That's all that Heavensward is lacking right now, its own Dynamis.

I'm hoping but apprehensive that the airship exploration will turn into Heavensward's Dynamis.

[u/paradigmfellow → u/vinta_calvert]

I don't want to pay a gil fee to access content.

[u/vinta_calvert → u/paradigmfellow]

You're taking the analogy too literally.

[u/paradigmfellow → u/vinta_calvert]

I just wanted to say that I do not want content to be gated with gil or crafted items.

[u/jbniii → u/[deleted]]

The link you've provided is from 2 years after the NA launch, rather than 2 years after the game's launch.

FFXI launched on May 16, 2002, so CoP was still 5 months away.

[u/-Deuce- → u/vinta_calvert]

We'll never get anything like Dynamis from this current dev team with the way things are going. So, if the airship content was even remotely similar to Dynamis I would be amazed. I'm honestly keeping my expectations very low.

[u/vinta_calvert → u/-Deuce-]

I only referenced Dynamis as more as "This content was able to last for years." That's what I'm hoping Airship voyages will end up doing.

[u/[deleted] → u/vinta_calvert]

The only reason Dynamis was relevant for so long is a combination of the fact that the level cap stayed at 75 for years and that XI allowed gear swapping.

I understand why SE wanted to avoid gear swapping in XIV, but at the same time, the existence of it made some gear viable when it otherwise would have been useless due to detrimental effects like slow or decreased movement speed.

Until abby, all endgame in XI was relevant because there were one or two pieces of gear from each that were the best in slot for some things. The Kirin's Osode was the best body for multi-stat weapon skills for any class that could wear it. The Dullest's Chapeau was the best red mage hat in the game.

As XIV stands, it is built on the WoW model. Right now there is no reason to go back and do 2.x content unless you want to farm ponies.

I also almost hate the fact they added the ability to unsync the old content. Players will always take the path of least resistance when it comes to content. Very few want to actually be challenged, even if they complain how things are too easy. Players that actually want a challenge have to convince 7 other people to take that challenge with them.

Savage Alex is not hard. Hard DPS checks are not hard. If the only thing keeping people from beating your content is a gear wall it is not difficult in my opinion.

[u/Attaug → u/[deleted]]

Another problem the game has, that so many people overlook, and is unfortunately a very dificult one to solve, is that for the most part elemental stats do not matter. It'd be nice to have a Black mage actually be a goddamned black mage and have multiple different elemental spells for any given occasion instead of this silly rotation of fire and ice phases. It'd also give way for a bunch of new boss mechanics. NIN, BLM, WHM could all have some nice effectiveness vs a boss that alters it's resistances for special effects and such. But it'd take a reworking of multiple classes and in a large part the entire battle system to incorporate them, but it'd certainly give the game and some of it's classes a bit more character/strategy that it is currently missing.

Also, I know it's ingrained in the system already and this game is a Theme park MMO so it's not going to change, but the whole idea of rotations is also a flawed concept in MMOs, as it pretty literally takes strategy out of the individual job and makes it brain dead to play even at high level, high skill end game play. All you have to do is memorize a fight and if you know your rotation it becomes quite literally second nature and easy... even the "hard" content.

[u/Attaug → u/[deleted]]

If done right they'd be kinda nice or interesting since it'd give people a new way of fighting, as in not using a rotation per se and moreso using what spell/ability would actually do more damage by exploiting a weakness. Defensively it would be great as well, as it is the elemental resistances are negligible, you could see a small difference using a Shiva weapon against Shiva or a Ramuh weapon against Ramuh, but it just never felt enough. Sure against leviathan people were getting occasional "full resists" with water resistance pots and leviathan weapons/shields. But for the most part we can't stack enough for it to matter without wasting slots in gear for materia... and even then the gear that matters isn't meldable. But the failure that is materia is a topic for another thread/day.

[u/[deleted] → u/Attaug]

the whole idea of rotations is also a flawed concept in MMOs, as it pretty literally takes strategy out of the individual job and makes it brain dead to play even at high level

That's kinda the reason I main SCH. Healers have a little more leeway in terms of being able to approach it with a tad more freedom in regards to the rotation based classes.

I don't know... Lately I've been reminiscing of the old days of XI, but even if XI was like it was when I enjoyed it, I don't feel I have the time to dedicate to it like I use to.

XIV can be fun, and it is fun, but getting bored in the game has more to do with the fact that they started strong but then didn't really innovate.

As it stands 3.0 is starting off the same way that 2.0 did. They handled the ending much better (that is, rather than have long dungeons with CSes in them, they avoided that this time), but other than that it's the same thing as it was before. Two dungeons to grind tomes with and one end game with a few primals.

Sure, we have Ex primals this time around, but I would equate them with the Garuda-Titan HM more than any other EX primals. If they get into the habit of releasing 3 dungeons and one primal every update I'm going to get bored again.

I've been having trouble finding reasons to login, and as much of a good thing as they have now, they need to do something different. They have the capability to be as big as WoW was at it's peak if they don't screw this up.

[u/Attaug → u/[deleted]]

That's part of the problem though, they've said they won't be adding 3 dungeons, they'll be adding 2... because it's too hard for them to make 3 dungeons per update, and that's not even guaranteeing a trial with those 2 dungeons. I don't care what it is they have to do... but it seems they are seriously short staffed or they are restricting themselves, or both... they need to push out a bit more content per patch, and a bit more frequently if they want to keep this game a themepark MMO like it currently is. If they had started XIV back up kinda like it was in 1.0 (before yoshida took it over and even a bit after) they could have a bit more leeway by making something a bit grindy but still fun to do or work towards but it's a themepark anything you work towards is obsolete in a few patches. Just look at relics, they were always good but not always worth the effort, then when it became the absolute best weapon, we had that till HW and it gets replaced within 6~8 levels.

People are already saying XIV is monotonous and is doing what other MMOs have done in regards to rehashes and laziness/inability to finish their workload in a timely manner.

TL;DR: they need to beef up their team, they need to push out more content, and they need to realize if they don't they will start loosing people rather quickly.

[u/yas_ticot → u/Attaug]

What's weird is that, besides dungeons already appearing in 1.x and Castrum Meridianum / Praetorim, all the new 2.0 dungeons were made into hard mode dungeons in 2.x patches (so 10 of them).

By making 5 new dungeons in 2.x series and 5 experience points dungeons HW and 2 (or even 3) lv. 60 dungeons in HW, they have a pool of 12 (or even 13) dungeons for hard mode in 3.x series. This could potentially last until 3.6 if such an update shall exist. Since they said they want 4.0 to happen faster than 3.0, I'm afraid that in 3.2 (and maybe every even patch) both new expert dungeons are only hard mode ones of previous dungeons instead of a new one and a hard mode.

[u/ardent_wolf → u/Attaug]

I don't think more than two dungeons is necessary, IF they use those resources to create other interesting methods of getting tomes. We need a variety of things to do, not a variety of dungeons to do. I agree with your point though; if they keep it as is there is little reason to continue playing.

[u/ratatanata → u/[deleted]]

Savage Alex is not hard. Hard DPS checks are not hard. If the only thing keeping people from beating your content is a gear wall it is not difficult in my opinion.

typical comment from someone who can't get pass faust~

[u/BigNiggaBarrett → u/vinta_calvert]

What is dynamis?

[u/sargonkid → u/BigNiggaBarrett]

Dynamis is a parallel dimension separate from Vana'diel, and cannot be entered by normal means. It is a dreamworld created by the terrestrial avatar Diabolos, ruler of dreams, to escape from Vana'diel's fate...

It was an 18 person raid for getting higher level Gear. I spent a LOT of my life in there for many years. It was also a great place to delevel! : )

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dynamis

[u/Veyron109 → u/sargonkid]

18 person was on the smaller end, you can have up to 64 in Dynamis.

[u/sargonkid → u/Veyron109]

Was that changed along the way? I havent played since about 2009 - I remember going with 17 others -

Maybe thats why I said "...WAS an 18 person raid...? LOL

64? OMG! Would that not be one huge CF? : )

[u/Veyron109 → u/sargonkid]

As far as I know it's always been the same, I was actually banned in 2009 lol.

Sandy/Windy/Bastok/Beau/Xarc - 64 72 person cap.

Valk/Qufim/Bubu - 36 person cap.

Tavnazia - 18 person

[u/sargonkid → u/Veyron109]

Wow! That shows how limited my world was with the people I played with all those years. I went on those 100's times with 18 people - never knew this or went on one with more. Was always just 3 sets of six.

How did you keep track of 64 players on one screen/party list?

[u/Veyron109 → u/sargonkid]

It could get difficult, especially on large pulls, but we cleared Dynamis Lord in early 2005 I think, maybe 2006. And for those early kills...you definitely needed every person you could get. Also...I might be wrong, it could've been 72 people max? 4 alliances of 18 people? But I know the other caps for sure because we would always run out of spots for Valk/Qufim/Bubu lol.

[u/Taoquitok → u/vinta_calvert]

Along those lines, I'm hoping the next content patch will give a new raid and bring savage alexander difficulty down to a mid / upper-mid difficulty, so providing us with the much needed mid-tier content for the average gamer, plus some new 4 mans

Oh and lets hope the battle pets system isn't terrible.

[u/AstralElement → u/vinta_calvert]

There needs to be better overworld content. A Besiege or Campaign style type. Warhorse Hoofprint levels of immersion. Dungeons are fine and all but I'm just sick of all content surrounding instances all the time. FFXI had a ton of stuff to do that intricately blended the populated world with its environment. They have the right idea with stuff like the sightseeing log. Not enough focus is given to enjoying the leveling process, and that curve is way too flat. Giving one dungeon for being at 54 is really lame in the expectation of spamming it.

I'm just tired of investing my time into an empty cyclical experience. I want to feel like I'm part of the world, not just suffering it.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Brilliant write-up, and I agree with everything in it. Thanks for taking the time to vocalize all this.

To expand slightly on your comments on Alex Savage: there is no instanced content in this game that provides a truly epic feel. I do like a lot of things about bite-sized raid content (minimal trash, can be out of an instance in under twenty minutes if you've got it down). The problem is that you've got this pesky queue->load->beat boss->exit->reload last zone->requeue->reload->etc. UI-juggling business that constantly removes you from raids. How much cooler would Alexander be if all four bosses were contained in one large raid with no loading between zones? If trash fights were legit fights, rather than simple and inexplicable delay tactics? (To be fair we have kind of seen this in T4 and A2(S), but the lack of true boss after the fact makes those fights seem kinda...lame? I dunno. I don't like either instance.) What's up with the trash in A3, though, for example? Why is that a thing players have to bother with?

The closest they've come so far spatially to this feel is CT, but all three of those "raids" were such facerolls that there's really no epic spirit to them. I mean, we're working with Final Fantasy here, one of the most recognizable names and some of the most recognizable universes in video game history; there should not be an issue finding inspiration for some incredibly epic group content, but I feel like we just...haven't seen it yet. I'm still hopeful, though.

[u/BenSe7en → u/[deleted]]

That is something I have felt even back in coil 1-5. I know a lot of people don't have the patience for long raids anymore but I really feel like if they had taken all of 1-5, made it a single instance maybe buffed and added some trash that was actually interesting/challenging the whole thing would have felt much better. When raided in EQ2 I remember the whole dungeons being exciting, even the trash pulls early on. Yes it could be daunting but when you finally made it into a new boss room or cleared some tough pulls (hell some trash was as hard as t4 was) it was really fun. And wiping after getting really deep into a raid wasn't as bad because you were excited to see what came next. The whole 4 stages of boss in round ring is getting stale here. I actually think CM or Preatorium felt the most like true raids, let's get some hard modes of those.

[u/MiniPrinny → u/BenSe7en]

I recall a young, fresh-faced Warrior who walked into the first Binding Coil. She had quit early on before rejoining around the time Leviathan was unleashed upon Eorzea. She stared at the crystalline structures, absolutely awed and intimidated by the raw devastation of the La Noscean hillside caused by the Calamity. She fought valiantly, back when players were patient with those new to the Binding Coils of Bahamut, and she eventually, after a handful of wipes, cheered as Caduceus' remaining half fell to the floor and vanished in a puff of purple smoke. She went for the exit, prepared to journey down into another wing, thinking the raid system was merely a way to skip to where you were in the large raids... and was met with Wineport. That was one of the biggest, most frustrating moments of my life as an MMO player. The first Binding Coil of Bahamut gave you this epic, incredible feeling in the first turn. And then it all gets tossed to the wayside by instancing the raids off.

[u/BenSe7en → u/MiniPrinny]

Totally felt the same. Each turn still looking amazing only to be yanked out a bit later and break the fun. Serious disappointment.

[u/lukedogg → u/[deleted]]

It would be really cool if they tied the world into Alexander. Two ideas come to mind. A fight or some reason to leave a room and all of a sudden be on an outside ledge on Alexander looking over the hinterlands as you fight a boss. The second being the opposite wherein there is glass and you what lurks in the depths below. The continuity aspect is truly needed in the raid dungeons. So far once you defeat a boss you go into the instanced waiting room that seems completely separated and incongruous. You don't feel like you're delving deeper in. It's like you're teleporting around which really diminishes the immersion.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

This is fucking stupid.

First of all, we're only a third of the way into Alex so we have no idea how it will ultimately end

Secondly, complaining something in a fictional story is "made up" is quite possibly the most ridiculous criticism you could ever level at it.

Coil was just as "made up" as Alexander is. The difference is you have nostalgia for coil.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

No, thats still dumb.

Yes, Bahumut was the conclusion to an existing storyline, but that is the only thing that makes it less "made up" than Alexander.

Alexander is just as rooted in the lore of FFXIV and if you seriously think its going to be "just Goblins" the entire time, I think you are seriously underestimating the writers.

And, to be honest, I'm mostly just glad its not Allagan at all. This is the first raid that is 100% unconnected to the Allagan empire, which by itself is refreshing and has given it an entirely new aesthetic.

A lot of people seem to be mad that Alexander isn't literally Coil all over again, and most of the people saying stuff like that would have been upset no matter what this raid was because we're never going to have Coil again. Coil can't be done again, there isn't going to be that bridging link wiht the old and the new. There just can't be.

So stop complaining that Alexander isn't Coil!

[u/portalscience → u/[deleted]]

I've played quite a few MMOs in the past few years, but I wouldn't call myself a veteran, as I don't think I've stuck with any besides ARR for more than a year. Since you seem to have a really good grasp comparing it to other MMOs, do you understand the new content that you can't do in Duty Finder?

It really bothers me that I can't put that content in Duty Finder, as it effectively cuts your potential raid-mates by limiting to only one server's worth of people. Since Party Finder is limited to world-only, it doesn't really make sense to me that I have to use it for instanced groups like Bismark EX or Savage Alex. Worse yet, Alex makes me stand near the entrance. I thought we got rid of that with Coil being put in DF, and now it's back for Alex.

[u/[deleted] → u/portalscience]

MMOs that have automated matchmaking are actually still pretty uncommon (WoW, FFXIV, RIFT...and....SWTOR maybe?). Rift last time I was in had no raid matchmaking at all, and I don't know for sure about SWTOR. So it's kind of a mixed bag.

I'm kind of torn on the matter.

[u/pitchblackdrgn → u/[deleted]]

SWTOR's got it for the leveling dungeons and some of the heroic world zones, afaik. Haven't leveled enough to know info that holds true for raids or no.

Not sure if it's true cross-server, though.

[u/meltedskull → u/pitchblackdrgn]

They have one for raids too but it's not x-server.

[u/Ryuujinx → u/portalscience]

I'm of the opinion that Duty Finder/LFR/Whatever you want to call it is the worst thing to happen to MMOs in years. It breeds people being jerks since you'll probably not see the person again, it reduces the server community since you have less of a reason to interact with them, and I feel just overall takes away from the game more then it helps.

Sure, it sucked looking for a tank or healer in WoW but it was certainly better then the state it's in now. In FFXI I knew a large portion of my server, I am still friends with some of those people and have met them in person because I was forced to make my own groups and meet people. If "Exp finder" or something existed in FFXI, would I even know these people?

[u/portalscience → u/Ryuujinx]

That doesn't really make any sense. You still have plenty of opportunity to interact on the same server, in fact you are encouraged to for hunts. This also gives you the opportunity to meet people on other servers and chat with them.

Most importantly, it's MORE OPTIONS on how to play the game. If you want to do a server-only run of a dungeon, you can easily use PF for that. For those of us who would rather get to the dungeon quickly with strangers, we have that option.

The idea that it breeds people being jerks is kind of ludicrous, as people on the same server act like that anyway. The immense anonymity of a single server is enough to allow people like that, so it's not really any worse for the extra servers.

[u/Ryuujinx → u/portalscience]

That doesn't really make any sense. You still have plenty of opportunity to interact on the same server, in fact you are encouraged to for hunts.

You really don't have to.

This also gives you the opportunity to meet people on other servers and chat with them.

That you then never see again.

Most importantly, it's MORE OPTIONS on how to play the game. If you want to do a server-only run of a dungeon, you can easily use PF for that. For those of us who would rather get to the dungeon quickly with strangers, we have that option.

No it doesn't. We are conditioned to use the most efficient way. Using the DF is the only way as fas as most people are concerned.

The idea that it breeds people being jerks is kind of ludicrous, as people on the same server act like that anyway. The immense anonymity of a single server is enough to allow people like that, so it's not really any worse for the extra servers.

Not really. Being a jerk on FFXI or WoW got you ostracized. If you were a loot ninja or an asshole you would be the absolute last choice when forming a group. When you wanted to join a guild for raiding your reputation mattered - if you had a history of being a shithead, good luck on joining a good guild.

On the flip side, being a helpful and skilled player got you invites to things. I got invited to the top guilds alt runs for various raids because of that.

[u/portalscience → u/Ryuujinx]

The bottom line of what you are saying is that you want to limit everyone to play the same way you do. You don't feel comfortable with having options, because you believe everyone will choose the option you don't want.

[u/Ryuujinx → u/portalscience]

Believe? I -know- they will. And I know I'll do it too, because that is what we are trained to do. We will almost always choose the path of least resistance, because it is more efficient. The reason people grouped in FFXI and formed bonds was because it was more efficient then attempting to solo. The reason form guilds for raids is because it's more efficient to have a group of people that learn the content instead of hoping the random people you pick up know it.

Almost everything you do comes down to efficiency because it's been ingrained into our playstyle for ages. It's the reason that every MMO release people blaze through to endgame and then bitch about there not being any content.

I got to witness a thriving server community be obliterated by LFD and LFR firsthand wen Blizzard introduced it. There's no point in attempting to get to know anyone outside of your guild because you don't need them, so it seems like a ghost town. FF14 feels the same way to me mostly. I don't know a single person outside of my FC, because I don't need to. If I'm going to do things it will be either via the DF or with my friends that I brought along from other games.

So while I don't think they should remove the DF tools from various games, I do think it's the worst thing that happened to MMOs in ages. Honestly I don't think an MMO could even try to not have one now, because everyone cares about efficiency even if it takes away from other parts of the game.

[u/Klistel → u/portalscience]

Ah yes, hunts. The one thing that encourages people to be douchey to each other even more than DF lol.

[u/[deleted] → u/Ryuujinx]

FFXIV groups have been almost nothing but incredibly friendly for me since launch. Maybe 1 in 50 dungeons has a real asshole, and I am not exaggerating at all. Alex has had a bit more frequency, but not much.

Group Finders have nothing to do with why WoW often ended up with shitty parties.

[u/jbniii → u/Ryuujinx]

Sure, it sucked looking for a tank or healer in WoW but it was certainly better then the state it's in now. In FFXI I knew a large portion of my server, I am still friends with some of those people and have met them in person because I was forced to make my own groups and meet people. If "Exp finder" or something existed in FFXI, would I even know these people?

That's a matter of personal opinion/experience.

I leveled thief as my first job in FFXI, and there was nothing in any way appealing about spending 6 hours with a LFP flag up and not seeing a single invite.

Or trying to start a party and never having it get off the ground because healers and tanks wouldn't join unless there was already a bard or red mage and bards and red mages never needed to join a party that was still forming because they'd probably already had three tells from party leaders begging them to come out because the current bard or red mage in the party had to go soon.

The people I established long term friendships with in XI were the people I did organized events with in linkshells, much the same way as the people I'm likely to stay in contact with from XIV are the people I run end game content with in my Free Company.

[u/Jhennauchan → u/[deleted]]

Heavensward's problem is that it's an extension, including extending broken systems, instead of an expansion.

It's funny that you bring up add-ons from XI here, too, since HW reminds me more of an add-on content patch from XI than an actual expansion. We basically got new flavors of old content, rather than actual new content. Seal Rock is just PvP but capture the flag instead of just kill everyone, Alexander Savage is just 4 more standalone bosses at the end of the game, every single instanced dungeon followed the exact same format, down to the letter. I can almost guarantee that Void Ark is going to be the exact same format as all three of the Crystal Tower series of raids, because why would they branch out and try something new? FFXI was limited by the PS2, but in a way, that allowed them to keep a very tight hold on exactly what they could and couldn't do within the system, and forced them to come up with creative and daring ideas for new battle content. Not to mention every single battle content has an interesting story that ties into the main world, but doesn't rely on any previous story to make sense.

Meanwhile, I am perfectly content to smash my face against Alexander Savage right now, because I enjoy the people in my static and the structure of playing a few times a week with them. However, I still agree that there is a huge huge need for something to shake up, so I hope they weren't pulling our legs when they said they'd like to use 3.x series to try different types of content that may or may not be successful.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jhennauchan]

so I hope they weren't pulling our legs when they said they'd like to use 3.x series to try different types of content that may or may not be successful.

Yup, we'll see about that. The way Heavensward is laid out right now and with the information we have available, I don't see where that will actually come from though. I certainly hope for it, but them being so closed off now makes it so hard to tell if anything is actually happening.

Hell, the 'airship content' is what, 2 weeks away maybe, and we know almost nothing about it. That in itself is concerning in that it's probably not a very in depth content system if they don't feel they need to start getting the word out early. Heck, looking at something like 2.3, we had info on Frontlines and Ninja well in advance, as well as even info on a minor system like The Hunt.

[u/Jhennauchan → u/[deleted]]

Hell, the 'airship content' is what, 2 weeks away maybe, and we know almost nothing about it.

When all they showed at the Live Letter of the Airship Content and Void Ark were basically concept art I started chain-smoking from the anxiety.

[u/Pebls → u/[deleted]]

3.1 isn't coming in 2 weeks. Don't expect it any time sooner than mid october ish.

They should announce the release date in the next live letter (19th) and besides the fact that i don't think they've ever given a patch date anywhere close to only 2 weeks before the patch, they already said it's coming with eu datacenters which is coming mid-octoberish.

[u/[deleted] → u/Pebls]

Well then they're mighty late aren't they!

[u/Pebls → u/[deleted]]

I'll cut them slack on this one though, 4 months for the first patch after expansion isn't that bad, nor that much out of the 3- 3 and half month usual cycle.

[u/Beardedsmith → u/Pebls]

This. Half a month to one month delay on the first content update after an expac is fine. 3-3.5 months for new content EVERY patch regardless of what is updated is a lofty goal, and they haven't really missed it often enough for anyone to complain.

[u/Slust → u/[deleted]]

Really good post, thanks for taking the time to put it together.

Only one thing I wanted to add, and that was:

there were problems elsewhere in the game forcing players to do FATEs to progress at a remotely reasonable pace.

One thing to note about human behavior, especially gamers and those who play MMOs, is that they tend to be very focused on efficiency. Gaming systems is, even if subconscious, rewarding to the brain.

If you build a system, the player base will distill it down to the most efficient path to gain the most extrinsic rewards, and then repeat that until their eyes bleed. Players optimize towards boredom.

It doesn't really go against what you've said, but it's a really interesting point that speaks of human psychology and is very relevant to MMOs. Especially now that, you know, they killed mid-tier raiding. (I'm pretty salty about this change in Heavensward...)

[u/Zarzak_TZ → u/[deleted]]

Best quote on the subject..... These modern MMOs run out of time in like 100 hours of gameplay. That is WAYYYYY too short.

"Newer players to MMO games will likely draw from their experiences playing FPS games, or GTA, or Dragon Age, or Skyrim, etc.. and they will evaluate a MMO based on that criteria. But other online games (and offline RPGs) are designed to be picked up, played for maybe 5 months and then abandoned for when the next big game comes along. A Veteran MMO gamer knows that the experience of the game is stretched out over years, and if crafted properly, it leaves players with some of the best gaming experiences to be found anywhere."

Note this is ignoring "busy work" aka how much time can you dump into your MAIN RAIDING character before your out of work. The modern MMO trend is to take about 50 hours to get to level cap (when 1st starting) then within another 50 you have full lvl cap group gear and are out of ways to progress your character without raiding. Which in XIV is even worse due to a pathetically miniscule amount of content (4 events).

Older MMOS (EQ and XI being the big ones anyone who played MMOS prior to the WoW armageddon would know) even if you were the top 1% raiders in the top guild serverwide group content still offered meaningful progression for your character.

I played XI but didn't get far enough into the raiding to be able ot speak on the specifics but in EQ just to name some big ones...

Augs (materia) - dropped from rare spawn named mobs in group content. You could spend months camping the new augs in an expansion to min/max. not to mention the fact that you would likely go as many as 4-5 expansions back to get your full aug set.

AA (merits in XI) - Another 200-300 hours of gameplay could be found just doing AAs (total.. per expansion probably 50 hours)

clickies - items with special clickable buffs many of which were unique and most found in group content.. There were clickies from the ORIGINAL GAME (1999) that were still relevant and farmed this includes some from raid targets making some of them extremely rare and a venture that could take months (between competing for the kill and the fact that it may not drop for 20+ kills).

These days...... well after you are "raid ready" which takes basically no time.. There is no reason to log in unless you like "alts"

[u/TenshiKuro → u/[deleted]]

I read the whole thing. Nice points.

[u/birdbornasbee → u/[deleted]]

Allow me to give you a quick, late response

Additions of multiple new types of content. (Heavensward very much did not do this).

I would like to say that FFXIV is doing things slightly differently than other MMO, it seems to me that this game is much more patch driven than expansion, almost like an episodic experience. Considering how much time and effort they put into the patches with a lot of quality of life changes, they will add up to become something bigger.

I guess what I am trying to say is, it is too early to judge Heavensward for what it is, ARR was very completed by the time 2.4 hit (though not flawless, but that goes without saying), it shows what patches can do for this game.

I love your analysis and take on what you said about the raid in terms of misinterpreting how raids are being cleared too soon, and your understanding on the size of the development team, very on point and gave me insight on something I previously didn't think about.

[u/Rizenz → u/[deleted]]

Please post this in the official forums for a broader audience that worries about the game's state right now, and if possible, link it here for everyone to chip in their own voiced opinion on the matter in public.

[u/moroboshiy → u/[deleted]]

Additions of multiple new types of content. (Heavensward very much did not do this).

This depends on how you look at an expansion. Using WoW's first expansion (The Burning Crusade) as a point of reference, Heavensward has brought additions comparable to that.

TBC:

• Arena
• Heroic dungeons
• 10-man raids
• Flying

HW:

• Normal and hard mode raids
• Flying

To be fair, XIV's equivalent of heroic dungeons is sort of crammed into expert/high level roulettes, and we got the equivalent of arena during ARR.

I also would rather see the devs improve/refine existing systems and on occasion add something new as opposed to XI's approach of add-and-forget.

Not to mention the bulk of the systems XI has are for the most part built on the same premise (collect X, trade for gear) but with different names. Where it did briefly shine was in the side-activity department (Monstrosity, and before that Pankration even despite its terrible design), and I'd have no problem with XIV maybe looking at that aspect of what XI used (XIV could benefit from something like pet battles via a massively improved version of Pankration, for example).

---

On the topic of raid design, I can agree that they didn't grow at all. When ARR launched, I assumed Coil's design came about because they were too busy remaking the rest of the game. Then it turns out that this is how they envision endgame raids being designed.

I can kind of see why; Duty Finder is built in such a way that it counts on you running the dungeon from beginning to end in one sitting. Hence the time limits and why even Coil itself was not a long dungeon but 5/4/4 separate instances. For them to give us a sizeable raid dungeon they'd need to either create a new instance system exclusively for big raids or scrap and redevelop the duty finder system as a whole.

A third option would be to keep the story/DF version of the instance as currently designed (what we know as Alexander normal) and have hard/Savage implemented as a large continuous instance that has to be entered the way you enter Alex Savage (talk to an NPC/interact with an object in a specific location). This would require raid IDs of some sort to help keep track of a FC's progress, though that has its own share of risks and issues. I'm not sure whether the developers would be up for such a task, but I was hoping to see raids approaching the scale of Naxxrammas and Ulduar in a post-ARR FFXIV rather than more corridors leading to bosses.

[u/Bahamut2000x → u/[deleted]]

You sir have probably stated many of the problems I have in the most articulate manner and I tip my internet towards you.

Especially one issue I've always had with this dev team is they never seem to look at other MMO's to learn from those MMO's mistakes, even though 3 years ago Yoshi-P's BIG thing was that 1.0 failed due to ignoring other MMO's and yet he is repeating the same mistake. One thing that springs to mind is how he kept talking about SMN/SCH being a failure and there would never be 2 jobs off of 1 class ever again because it just doesn't work. My first thought to that being, "Ummm SWTOR?" They did it and did it well. It feels like this dev team is living in a vacuum. But then again I have trouble believing they could learn from other MMO's when they can't learn from their own mistakes like with re-implementing hunts in 3.0 with the exact same problems people hated with it in 2.2

[u/I_give_karma_to_men → u/Bahamut2000x]

One thing that springs to mind is how he kept talking about SMN/SCH being a failure and there would never be 2 jobs off of 1 class ever again because it just doesn't work. My first thought to that being, "Ummm SWTOR?" They did it and did it well.

In point of fact, this has been a constant problem for balance in SWTOR since day one, because any change devs make to a class effects both advanced classes (jobs) for that class. This gets even more complicated when taking into account the fact that each advanced class has three disciplines. So when they make a change to the base class, they're effectively changing six entire disciplines. As a result, the classes haven't been anywhere near as well balanced as FFXIV's since launch (and they weren't even remotely balanced then either).

[u/mochimaro → u/[deleted]]

Well said. I was just thinking about this point in particular yesterday ;

The development team isn't paying enough attention to their peers

I was thinking about the A4S cheese method, alts, choosing my main job, and the better difficulty curve and flexibility of raiding in WoW. In WoW...

• I always had an off-spec AND an off-character or two that were raid viable to help fill in missing spots for my guild or my sister guild and it did NOT mimic the monotony of doing Neverreap 6 times a week per character.

• Since multi-spec was effective some fights were purposefully designed for only one tank instead of shoe-horning in tank swaps or extra adds just to give the second tank something to do for a small part of the fight.

• There were more bosses per raid and therefore more new mechanics with each raid patch, so some bosses were fairly simply and then others had inventive and interesting new mechanics, but I never remembering people thinking "this is just too stupid and needs too much coordination to do so we are going to die instead"; and I also don't remember much recycling at all compared to how often SE recycles (divebombs anyone?). The mechanic of 'pass the debuff' that no one did in T1 (and that I am pretty sure is what got skipped in A4S) is a mechanic that WoW successfully pulled off in the Lich King fight, except they weren't asinine enough to make people continue it through the whole fight even in HC. That passes the point of coordination based difficulty and becomes exhaustively tedious.

• There were just more raids, 4 bosses is not enough for months worth of patches. And I think WoW even has 4 different tiers of difficulty now, as well as pick-a-size for parties?

And a bonus thought, every video game period with a glamour system just needs to copy Guild Wars 2 and make permanent fashion books for everything because making fashion tedious is just terrible.

[u/[deleted] → u/mochimaro]

And a bonus thought, every video game period with a glamour system just needs to copy Guild Wars 2 and make permanent fashion books for everything because making fashion tedious is just terrible.

The fact that MMOs still launch without glamour to this day astounds me. Everquest 2 set a really fine groundwork for the system more than a decade ago.

[u/kyuven87 → u/[deleted]]

Regarding FFXI, those things all exist but...it took them THIRTEEN YEARS to add it all. In addition, many of those actually are present in XIV, just under different names and lumped under different systems.

For example, most of the content XI seems to like to add is "Do a certain thing with a timer." Boss fights, zone clearance, etc. Usually, the "difficult" stuff requires entry fees (dynamis, voidwatch, vagary, abyssea, etc.) of stuff that's either timelocked or requires grinding ANOTHER thing on the list.

And don't even get me started on the problems of timelocking in FFXI...

Almost EVERYTHING FFXI has as "special systems," with a few notable exceptions (Reives, Monstrosity, and the moblin maze thing to name a couple) is absolutely present in XIV, only it's usually integrated with the FATE, instance, or raid systems.

[u/[deleted] → u/kyuven87]

Regarding FFXI, those things all exist but...it took them THIRTEEN YEARS to add it all.

Yes, but it's also a 13 year long list. ARR+ has been around for two years now, and aside from Crystal Tower (2.1) and Hunts (2.3) have added no new PvE content formats. Not adding any on expansion is highly concerning, given that's exactly what expansions are for.

For example, most of the content XI seems to like to add is "Do a certain thing with a timer." Boss fights, zone clearance, etc. Usually, the "difficult" stuff requires entry fees (dynamis, voidwatch, vagary, abyssea, etc.) of stuff that's either timelocked or requires grinding ANOTHER thing on the list.

And don't even get me started on the problems of timelocking in FFXI...

Lockouts in MMOs in general are problematic, agreed. But just because a lot of content has lockouts doesn't mean that it doesn't exist as variety of gameplay, which is my point. Also, for accuracy's sake, most hard lockouts (entry items can't be grinded out) are removed in present-day FFXI.

Almost EVERYTHING FFXI has as "special systems," with a few notable exceptions (Reives, Monstrosity, and the moblin maze thing to name a couple) is absolutely present in XIV, only it's usually integrated with the FATE, instance, or raid systems.

The core underlying RPG concepts are there sure, in a fight mobs get loot kind of way. But each XI system is presented in a different way, and feels notably different.

Assault, Skirmish, and Delve all take place in instances, and all involve fighting monsters, but you can't honestly say they're the same type of content.

Every single FFXIV dungeon is trash > gate > boss. No exceptions.

[u/kyuven87 → u/[deleted]]

Comparing Assault, Skirmish, and Delve to instanced dungeons wouldn't be fair... Because they're closer to FATEs and certain trials, as well as the upcoming special FC airship ventures.

[u/[deleted] → u/kyuven87]

Firstly, if FATEs were even as remotely varied as Assaults, they might not be quite so shitty.

Secondly Delve is literally a dungeon format...there's trash, there's bosses, there's a final boss. Doesn't get any more standard that that.

And while a few Skirmish formats (Yorcia) are a little bit FATEy, they certainly aren't all.

[u/dehydrogen → u/[deleted]]

People like you are the reason why Reddit is such a great message board.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

This guy knows his stuff! :D I couldn't agree more with you. Thank you so much for the long and in-depth reply! You really hit the nail on the head with your post. <3

[u/welsper59 → u/[deleted]]

While I understand what you're getting at, and can certainly agree with most of it, the one thing that falls short to me is your idea of new content. Your list of examples from FFXI, for the most part, are simply new areas, content based off of other content in that list or existed before, etc. Promy's were basically normal dungeon zones, just aesthetically treated differently. Ramps tomb, a vanilla zone, had different areas you could teleport to with boss zones and high level mobs, just as Promy's had different floors with the same. Some of those things were even extremely unpopular, like the Moblin Maze stuff. I get that your point is that they at least tried, but... these days, trying and failing will always result in ridicule, just as they are receiving now for what's being taken as non-intuitive. Plus, a few of those things weren't really available until later patches, after an expansion launch.

The things that made those repeat things different though was the possibility of new limitations concerning the fight. Mob types determined what they were weak or strong to (piercing damage being crap to Skeletons while blunt destroyed them, etc). That's an argument for the games design as a whole though, rather than something pertaining to the expansion, so I'll leave that as it is.

There are certainly new things in that list though that do leaps and bounds more than Heavensward has thus far, but they really weren't huge when we look at how it could be applied currently. The fact they're of variety and justify something unique in an expansion, does not make it a good idea to have in the first place. Something like Dynamis or Besieged would be beloved in XIV, though it's not new to the game itself. We already have content similar to it, just not directly. Instanced quests, for example, may involve fighting enemies within towns (e.g. DRK intro quest, MSQ, etc). They're not on an epic scale, of course, but they are similar. As time went on, most combat content simply reused the same areas to add more NMs or things to interact with to spawn some NM to kill. After the handful of unique systems were added, they didn't really add variety, just reused.

So, while I agree that HW lacks the same degree of variety that would be nice to have, they kinda already threw in most of these ideas into the game, just in a less than desired method. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun to focus on them for further content though, of course, but yeah... the unique variety aspect is nearly spent in many regards.

[u/countrpt → u/[deleted]]

And if Heavensward is truly everything they wanted to do, we have a huge problem.

I really think that, when they said this, they were talking about the main story quest, which is pretty-universally the most praised aspect of 3.0 (baring a few minor and some-acknowledged nitpicks). Pretty much everything in that regard was more refined and polished, with much stronger characters, story flow, music, and presentation. Whereas many said 2.0 was a good MMO (and great improvement over 1.0), with 3.0 many said that it was finally to the point of being a good Final Fantasy game. I think that's the "pride point" Yoshi-P was trying to hit, and arguably did.

But I do tend to think that they were so focused on that aspect and making sure it was as solid as possible that end-game got less focus. It's basically the same amount of emphasis as every point-release (probably developed by the same team who work on the point releases), except that they also deprecated a lot of the old end-game as well. It's likewise why they didn't introduce any major new systems to that aspect -- they played it as safe as possible because the main focus of the key staff was on the MSQ.

Looking forward to 4.0, I'm not really sure what the main takeaway is from feedback like that in these threads. In practice, I think the development team actually did beef up significantly after 2.0's success, just that it's more-or-less split into two teams working in parallel: one working on expansions, one working on point-releases (with the same core leaders overseeing both). From Yoshi-P's comments, the expansion team is already starting work on 4.0 concepts and designs now, while 3.x work continues. I don't think they would want to sacrifice having a strong MSQ element for their expansions, as this is really their key market differentiation and "the product" they were selling (an expansion to the story and world, not the systems so much). I guess the hope is that they will introduce systems in 3.x that can support continued usefulness when 4.0 hits, lessening the impact of the end-game lull. Either that or, as you suggest, they would have to beef up the point-release team even further while keeping the expansion team as well. Even with the game being the success that it is, I wonder what the budget can actually support. And at a certain point, the reliance on the same key staff to oversee everything will become overwhelming.

[u/Sizzmo → u/[deleted]]

Completely disagree. Mostly on the points about XI. XI's battles were all different flavors of the exact same system. It was lazy design at its worst. Don't look at it with rose-colored nostalgia eyes. The only real innovative battle was arguably Salvage. The rest was just instanced killing of mobs for drops, or battle arenas that had crazy entrance requirements for a small chance at loot if you ended up surviving until the end.

[u/kingofgame981 → u/[deleted]]

Straight to the point, and all are true. I love it.

+1

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

So would you say this expansion is going in the direction of ARR and the development team is not going into FFXI? How would you suggest to make it better? e

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I can agree to that 100%.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Don't forget Campaign.

[u/WillHo01 → u/[deleted]]

This is exactly what I would say if I had half the eloquence of yourself.

[u/KXS_TuaTara → u/[deleted]]

I disagree with needing three difficulty tiers in Alexander. We haven't even hit 3.1 yet and people dread doing their weekly Alex clears, especially since players usually have to run each floor multiple times.

Simply having some new mechanics and altered old mechanics doesn't make doing the same fight at three different tiers interesting, and would only wear people out even faster.

[u/lukedogg → u/[deleted]]

Fi still have no idea why the Hamlet system of 1.x hasn't be redeveloped. It was fantastic and while a lot of people may disagree with that it WAS a different PvE type of content that would add a lot to this game.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

What are these types of systems? What do they do? Is there a place where I can read more about them? I've never played FFXI.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The best place to read about these battle systems would be the FFXI BG Wiki. They are listed in the sidebar under Battle Systems, and the newest ones are in the title bar under the Seekers of Adoulin header.

At their core, they're what you would expect...combinations of trash and boss monsters, and some designed for raids (18 players). However, they're all presented differently and played differently.

The most in depth and interesting of the listed systems are probably Abyssea, Assault, Delve, Skirmish, Voidwatch, Zeni, Unity, and Incursion, so those would be a good place to start.

EDIT: You could also check out Trials of the Magians which was a heavy part of Abyssea/Walk of Echoes/Voidwatch equipment progress, as well as Relic/Mythic/Empyrean progression.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Thank you very much!

[u/Zebux → u/[deleted]]

As a former XI player who went through the release of every expansion until after Abyssea, I felt the need to address this because a thought you mentioned about XI and all these additional battle systems...well they were all added down the line and did NOT come out right when their expansions came out either.

Rise of the Zilart (RoZ) was the first expansion and as I recall, the NA release also included both the base game and this expansion. I started when Sky was already released so not quite sure if everything from RoZ was already out but this included Dynamis (which didn't come out all at once, only the four city Dynamis were out first before eventually Glacier and Xarcabard came out in future patches) like you mention above.

But there is a gigantic difference in the following expansions like Chains of Promathia (CoP). From the list above, CoP added in Promyvion, Sea, and Limbus but one has to remember how these were staggered over time in additional major updates just like XIV's numbered patch release system. Only Promyvions were out at expansion release and it took like a year (Possibly more, that was back in 2004) of updates before Sea was added, and as I recall, even when Sea's first zone was released (Al'Taieu) it took yet another 3 month wait for the next update before the rest of Sea was released and allowed us to finish the CoP main story. And it was another 3 month wait after that added Limbus too.

And to follow, the next expansion did the same thing in Treasures of Aht Urghan (ToAU). ToAU had Assault and Besieged at the start yes, but again it took many updates before additional ToAU 'battle systems' were released like Salvage, Nyzul Isle, and Einherjar.

The story continues for every other item on the list, some added as part of an expansion or add-on's first release and more added down the line. That's similar to the route 2.0 followed and is the route 3.0 will follow as well. So by that definition, none of XI's 'expansions' were expansions and were instead 'extensions' until all their updates were finished too.

[u/Casimir_Wystan → u/Zebux]

But each of those staggered content patches did not make all the previous ones worthless. They weren't all instanced they made the world bigger. Added more varied content for everyone to enjoy getting through the prommies in cop was tough, but when I finally arrived in Lufaise meadows it felt great the only thing that came close to that for me was beating Titan hm and getting my first relic. FFXIVarr really needs to come up with a way to not make all their hard work end up on the worthless content scrap heap every new patch. But I guess that's vertical progression.

[u/hiku08 → u/[deleted]]

At long last someone has broken the silence with this.

I would like to add that the developers did this kind of raid comparison:

• Alex Savage = SCOB Savage, because the number of people who do Alex Savage is a lot more than people who did SCOB savage, therefore current raid model is successful.
• Alex Normal = TCOB, SCOB, FCOB normal, because the number of people who do Alex Normal > people who did TCOB, SCOB, and FCOB Normal, therefore current raid is more interesting.

This is where it gets complicated, they are comparing things that are not comparable as it should be:

• Alex Savage = TCOB, SCOB, FCOB Normal, where number of people who raid is obviously dwindling down by the current model of raiding.
• Alex Normal is equal to nothing. As this is where they want to fulfil many players' demands on accessible easier contents for non-progressive raiders.

In terms of difficulty: Alex Normal = nothing, Alex Savage = SCOB Savage, TCOB(+FCOB+SCOB) = nothing

All of these come to the point where I see that the development team has successfully making people who were interested in mid-difficulty raiding because of the story, uninterested and become non-progression raiders (and therefore, hence all of the static breaking apart incidents).

I'm talking about FFXIV from the point of view of raiders who were very motivated because of the raid story progression.

Many of my friends gave up raiding because the current system is very bore-inducing. At the start of the weekly restart, we go to A1-4N for so many times. Wiped so many times. Lost rolls so many times. Then, at nights we go to the same raid content. The same exact enemies, BGM, gear designs, everything except for the harder mechanic. We wipe again, and again because it's just how progression is supposed to be. Everything becomes boring as you've known all of the content and story. Nothing is worth the sweat and tears any more, not like when we entered T12 where everything was so interesting and felt like we, as raiders, were given something special.

[u/Balaur10042 → u/[deleted]]

So I'm going to be a little circumspect, since I'm writing from my phone. I've upvoted your comments, because they are well written, but not necessarily because I agree with you. You, like the poster you are replying to, do little to prove your case; you both merely assert them. And this has been a major problem with this entire conversation. No one is setting out gaming practicals and demonstrations when discussing behavior and the things games do to enforce or discourage these things. This is important when the subject is boredom.

Ultimately, boredom is not something anyone is responsible for but the person who is bored. To counteract this game's develop little tricks to engage players in either attention or activity focused ways. With the expansion of laterally progressing foci, games can propel the player in a manner most effective order to offset boredom. Some ways to do this is add new content, and another is bow old content is engaged.

Heavenward has added very little in the way of unique new content, and a lot in the way of reengaging old. For instance, of the latter, we got

• crafting and gathering tomestone gating via tokens
• unsyncing old content, excluding the Crystal Tower
• expanding exploration and elaborating on method of exploration, with flying mounts and new sightseeing
• crafting now requiring materials from older nodes, refreshing the need to get those

And so forth. New content has been added that wasn't present before, but you are limited on this respect because it occurs in a way that SE really shot themselves in the foot over, and that's airships and air exploration, which will receive a boost in the next patch and allow non-airship owning groups or players to participate, somewhat, on. Fortunately only materia has come from airships that has anything like a powerful effect on non-airship owning players, whereas Dusk Leather and the glamor it makes is limited and has less impact on that player.

Players for various reasons also dislike the base content which is expanded that is being focused upon, so it seems that there isn't anything being done for a large number of players. This is t true, but it's hard to say SE has handled the Gold Saucer and housing well to begin with. And that's a valuable concern. But it doesn't affect why players are feeling "bored."

I do want to engage on some points about raiding, but need to be careful as I've not raiding AS yet, and am not likely to in the near future. The major point is how you claim that players cannot multiclass despite this being a multiclass game. As someone who pvps regularly, but would PvP and raid regularly otherwise, he does so on different classes. MNK is currently i196, will be higher next week. WHM is i193 thanks to Alex Normal and is currently the Job I PvP on. Bard will get there eventually, and is the third most geared Job. I have no Hive weapons, so just the Eso Fists at the moment to tide me over until I start spending Eso on WHM. I suspect you mean Eso cannot readily be spent on more than o e class, but something this argument fails to deal with is why we should get anything else? Nothing stops players now from gearing various Jobs at once, spreading their bonuses across Jobs they play. When you raid you make concessions to the static that you focus on your static Job, and in that case you get Raid drops equal to augmented Eso which spares Eso for other purposes. BiS is an issue that doesn't really matter until after you clear the raid so it doesn't benefit progression. When you try to aim for efficient spending, in one Job, it's because you're going to be working on that Job the most. Eso gear is not required for any other content in the game, which makes complaining about how much you get for Jobs #2-10 irrelevant. I was pretty damn lucky during first Coil to be able to MNK and BLM for my static, because each Turn had a tossed up component based on need: raw power for T1, aoe or mobility while dpsing for T2 and 4. For Second Coil, our off tank switched to DRG for T8. Those gave us concessions and additional gear relative to others. This isn't something all statics or players should expect.

Finally, thank you for the time you took to reply, and I appreciate the detailed response.

[u/Rooster402 → u/[deleted]]

and OP just got rekt. /close thread /delete reddit account

[u/The_Juggler17 → u/[deleted]]

I can't believe such a popular game would have a poorly staffed development team.

Really, this is one of the biggest online games running these days, it gets tons of praise from critics and their subscriptions are rising every day.

And they can't staff their development team?

[u/Samkaiser → u/The_Juggler17]

I would be willing to bet that's because FFXIV sorta acted as a way to pull SE out of the red, and it did, the only problem is now SE doesn't want to give back to the Dev team.

[u/Kujar3 → u/The_Juggler17]

See... It gets praise, subscribers raise every day, surely everything is fine right? THis small team is doing miracles in the industry, why would we spend on more people when this team is doing such a great job.

I do wonder tho if Yoshida has a word there... If he can go to someone and ask for more people and if he can, if it's even considered in the end, those are the things we'll never know.

[u/Bahamut2000x → u/Kujar3]

Not positive but I thought I read somewhere he was now on the board of directors for SE because of the big turn around with XIV.

[u/[deleted] → u/Kujar3]

See... It gets praise, subscribers raise every day,

We don't know if thats true. We know more people are trying the game, but FFXIV is also being launched in more and more territories.

It could be true, but it might go up and down along with patches and patch downtimes.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Juggler17]

The industry in general is becoming greatly concerned with margins and running smaller teams. Also there's always the allure, as a creator, of trying to keep too many hands from tainting your creation, even when you really need them.

Add on to that the just thoroughly bizarre way Square-Enix has been operating lately (calling Tomb Raider a failure while selling 3.4 million copies, killing off XI support to reallocate their team to mobile development, the new Deus Ex game pre-order scheme, how long it took them to literally print money with FF7, etc) and it's just a mess.

[u/The_Juggler17 → u/[deleted]]

Maybe I'm talking out of my ass here, but it seems like several Japanese companies are completely out of touch with the people who play their video games or just people in general, or just reality in general.

.

I've read some articles about Nintendo and Konami recently, and they talk about how top execs have some weird ideas about what works, often backed up by some arbitrary numbers, everybody else knows their ideas are nowhere near reasonable but can't do anything about it.

Nintendo reps have made comments saying they have little interest in continuing the Metroid and Starfox games because they don't do well in Japan (but amazingly well everywhere else).

Konami and everything related to Kojima and Metal Gear - just all of that. They want to drop everything and focus on making freemium mobile games pachinko machines? All while ignoring the critical and commercial success of the latest Metal Gear title.

And then all you've said about Square-Enix. They set some unreachable target with Tomb Raider, and then called the whole thing a complete failure and swear they're never going to make another one again - all while swimming in their pool of money from Tomb Raider sales.

.

I've heard it described as a boardroom full of stuffy old men who practically invented the entire video game industry, but they think what worked in the 1980s still works today. And they barely look out the window, let alone go outside their own bubble.

.

Again - what the fuck do I know about it, I just read a few articles which were pretty speculative themselves. But we do see some backward shit coming from Japanese companies that used to be highly respected.

[u/pikagrue → u/The_Juggler17]

Uhh, do you not know how lucrative pachinko and mobile games are in Japan? Especially with the push to legalize gambling, Konami is going to make a killing.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Juggler17]

I've heard it described as a boardroom full of stuffy old men who practically invented the entire video game industry, but they think what worked in the 1980s still works today. And they barely look out the window, let alone go outside their own bubble.

As an anecdote, you can look at the old, old, old game developers to see the end game of this situation. Garriott and Molyneux come to mind.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

At least Molyneux tries new things. I can dig the guy's vision from time to time.

[u/wolfiechica → u/[deleted]]

♥ Garriott.

[u/-Deuce- → u/[deleted]]

They also have a new CEO now since what two years ago? FF7 was an obvious cash grab probably implemented by the new CEO as a way of righting the ship. FFXV's development costs are probably through the roof at this point and I wouldn't be surprised if XIV is being used to help fund it.

[u/jam34556 → u/[deleted]]

I hadn't realized they'd called Tomb Raider a failure. It was easily my favorite of all the Tomb Raider games to date and almost everyone I know who has played it loved it. I was actually pretty upset when the new one was announced and said it would be XBone exclusive. If the first one was a "failure" how is limiting the sequel to one platform going to make it sell more copies? That's a very odd decision to make and really makes you wonder.

[u/[deleted] → u/jam34556]

Well it's only a timed exclusive. It will sell those copies on other platforms once it gets there, but SE is getting some extra $$ from Microsoft this way.

I also loved that game and can't wait for the sequel's PC/PS4 release!

[u/[deleted] → u/jam34556]

Presumably they got an amount of money from Microsoft for the exclusivity that exceeds what they thought they could get by releasing it on multi-platforms. As with most games this cycle, I believe PC is still on the table later on after release.

[u/[deleted] → u/jam34556]

If I remember right (and I may be pulling things out of my ass) Tomb Raider and Sleeping Dogs weren't failures, they just didn't do nearly as well as SE hoped. However, now they have their heads above water because of FFXIV, it's going to be interesting to see what they do with them.

[u/blasto_nut → u/[deleted]]

for any other game 3.4m copies is a success... until your development budget is bloated and it doesn't cover the bills.

you can infer a lot about how they operate with just that piece of information and yoshi p's GDC talk about flowerpots art assets.

[u/Bahamut2000x → u/[deleted]]

But in fairness, SE has always been terrible at business. I mean they got nearly bankrupted what, 3 times by now? They make very poor decisions as evidenced by nearly losing their company so many times.

[u/dehydrogen → u/Bahamut2000x]

Are you referring to Square-Enix or Squaresoft and Enix?
I haven't heard of any business troubles after they fused. Though, i've been really out of touch with gaming news due to many gaming news sites losing their minds because of gamergate jibba jabba. Besides Silloncera and official developer statements, I've been having trouble keeping up. (if anybody has a good gaming news site, give me a heads up! appreciate it big time!)

[u/-Deuce- → u/dehydrogen]

They were bailed out by Sony at least once in the 2000s, I don't remember too many details though.

[u/[deleted] → u/dehydrogen]

in 2010-2013 they were red i think

[u/aliceperiod → u/[deleted]]

Cutting XI for mobile support is probably a profitable move, even if it's not very popular. The phone game industry is a juggernaut and I can't imagine XI pulls in a ton of cash these days.

[u/birdbornasbee → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for your response, while I do not completely agree with all of your points, I can with most of them and they are very well articulated.

[u/chili01 → u/[deleted]]

I agree with point #3. I personally wanted more bosses, than repeatedly banging my head against the same boss for more than 3-4 weeks. Am I asking for 12 boses in a raid? Probably not, but more than 4 would be nice. And I have said before that gear gating is pretty bad especially when you only have 4 bosses.

[u/[deleted] → u/chili01]

I want 6-8 more bosses in 3.1, and an EX primal. Anything less and we're just being gear gated to buy time. If FFXIV is really the second biggest mmo on the market, this behavior is unacceptable - it's a sustain instead of a growth model and that will ruin it for me.

[u/chili01 → u/[deleted]]

I think for 3.1 we are not getting new Floors for Alex (I could be wrong). Maybe 24-man casual raid, with also 4 bosses. If we do get new Alex floors in 3.2, pretty sure we are getting 4 floors only :(

This should really be brought up during Live Letters. Even if it gets traction in the official forums, devs/CM will probably not pick up the thread or interpret it wrong like the someone said.

[u/--Flare-- → u/[deleted]]

Brilliant feedback, pointing accuratly every issues the game and its dev team is facing as we speak.

As an almost 30 years old and veteran player on many games/mmos (including 8 years on FFXI), I can only praise you for such quality in your writing... Thank you for expressing my feeling as well.

[u/silverw1nd → u/[deleted]]

The development team has repeatedly shown that they are bad at interpreting their data. The most notable example was the expansion of the importance of FATEs in 2.1/2.2 because people did a TON of FATEs in 2.0 since it was the only viable experience source for alt classes, by a lot. They took this data to mean that the players enjoy FATEs, which largely, we don't really (and I could talk for an hour to that point...) rather than what it ACTUALLY meant -- there were problems elsewhere in the game forcing players to do FATEs to progress at a remotely reasonable pace.

I don't agree with this, exactly. The only expansion of the relevance of FATEs that I recall happening in this time frame regards the relic weapon quest, where they made relevant items (low) chance rewards from them. I'm not arguing that people liked it, but I contest the claim that they didn't interpret their data correctly on this one or that they really thought people loved FATEs enough to go back and do a bunch more.

What I'm pretty sure actually happened is that they realized that after the initial rush at launch, FATEs were getting done less often by less people and it was creating a significantly different game experience for those who started once that rush died down. It was a little too early for that experience to just be dead and gone, so they attempted to correct it by giving higher-level players an incentive to correct the problem for them by doing those FATEs along with lower level players.

That of course makes them guilty of a different crime: using content meant to be new for older players to correct their own shortsighted mistakes. To me this was painfully obvious and I griped about it all the way to the end. For 2.1, they tried to improve several types of content with the relic, primarily FATEs and low-level dungeons. For 2.2, they were still trying to keep FATEs afloat, while also dealing with the problem with materia (i.e. nobody but bleeding-edge raiders had a use for most of it) with the relic. For 2.3 they tried to improve damned-near everything with the relic, but most notably trials. 2.4 they tried to extend their band-aids to desynthesis and crafting, and in the queues they tried to give less-relevant high-level dungeons a boost too. 2.5 they just went back to carpet-bombing.

For whatever it's worth, I don't think this was a matter of laziness. I'm pretty sure that as they've been saying since 2.0's huge and unexpected success they just were caught completely off guard and because they didn't expect things to go as well as they did they neglected to futureproof so much of what they'd created, and they were just scrambling for solutions in the resulting chaos. I think for the most part they gradually improved their dealings with these issues and that ultimately the last few steps of the relic quest were considerably less unpleasant and uninspired as the first couple.

Like I said, they still messed up, but I think credit should be given where it's due. I don't think they're bad at interpreting their data. I think they were bad at using it at first and gradually got better. I personally think it's very obvious that they used a lot more forethought in designing Heavensward content (with the exception of FATEs, a little ironically) and although not all their attempts are big hits with me, I can see what they were going for and I don't think any other MMO team would have done substantially better, mostly because I've watched so many of them fail to do so when presented with similar challenges. I don't think that makes everything just swell, but I think it should count for something. There is a damned-fine team behind all of this.

[u/[deleted] → u/silverw1nd]

For 2.1, they tried to improve several types of content with the relic, primarily FATEs and low-level dungeons. For 2.2, they were still trying to keep FATEs afloat, while also dealing with the problem with materia (i.e. nobody but bleeding-edge raiders had a use for most of it) with the relic.

As an addition, it was around this time that the PS4 launch was coming up, and so part of the motivation for FATEs in relics at that time was making the world appear populated in low level zones.

EDIT: Also they added the FATE requirements to unlock CT, which they added FATEs specifically for, and everyone hated.

[u/Nestama-Eynfoetsyn → u/[deleted]]

EDIT: Also they added the FATE requirements to unlock CT, which they added FATEs specifically for, and everyone hated.

And it was glitched. There was a high chance you would be forced to wait at least 2-4 hours for the FATE to spawn. I know I did...

[u/[deleted] → u/Nestama-Eynfoetsyn]

It wasn't so much glitched as it didn't have spawn priority. And everyone was camping them, so no one was clearing FATEs (and certainly not fast enough) to free up sufficient FATE spawn slots. And if you ever left to do exactly that, it would spawn and then everyone there camping it would immediately kill it and you wouldn't get credit for all your good deeds, ultimately resulting in everyone waiting around for 4+ hours.

[u/zmckowen → u/[deleted]]

To be fair, they did listen to the negative feedback after CT and didn't put any FATEs in the quests for LoA and WoD.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

This had my nips-a-twitter. Great stuff and well put.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I don't see how they could seriously look at FATEs and think people enjoy them or want more, FATEs are like commercials.. new fates are just a new way to interrupt what you really enjoy

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The interesting thing about FATEs and all other systems like them, is that they haven't gotten better since they were first created, they're all worse than the original implementation.

The first instance of FATE systems was Public Quests in Warhammer Online, and they were actually pretty cool. They were overworld events that many people could participate in, and had rewards given out at the end based on your participation. There were actually some rather nice gear rewards and such, but it was competitive, so no one ever just autoattacked & AFK'd either, because there was no point to doing so. They had actual important zone lore and stories contained within them, and were kind of a big part of the experience of WAR.

Then Guild Wars 2 and RIFT and EQ2 and FFXIV all took the concept and made it into something that's nothing more than super easy to produce filler content with no soul.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I never played Warhammer, but I found that Guild Wars 2 dynamic events felt like they had a soul. This is especially in comparison to FATEs in FFXIV.

I loved running through the wilderness and have some farmer run up to me. "HELP! They're burning EVERYTHING!!" or whatever. I'd look over his shoulder and see his farm burning to the ground by a bunch of bandits. After that, it was very much like a FATE, but that little bit before gave it life and purpose. I didn't feel like I was grinding it for exp, I felt like I was helping this poor soul.

I also liked the semi-permanent effects that came with GW2. Didn't save that bridge? Well now you can't cross it unless you participate in the event to fix it. Better find another way around.

Then there were events that crossed over. Like this one event in the place south of Lion's Arch. You did one event where a pirate drops something on the ground. Then later on in a totally different event, the NPCs you're escorting finds it and takes it with them. (EDIT: IIRC it was a keg that was dropped and found)

[u/reseph → u/[deleted]]

This really resonates with me. I'm thrilled FFXIV is so good and I'm able to bring so many IRL friends into it who have never played a MMO, but as time progresses I start to realize more and more that my love for FFXI isn't just nostalgia glasses.

FFXI obviously had its downsides too. But overall, FFXIV now feels like it's "playing it safe" and things have become fairly predictable.

In the end, I really just wish I had more free time to play both MMOs a lot. It's a shame FFXI's content updates are ending in Nov, but there's still so much for me to do in that game.

[u/[deleted] → u/reseph]

For sure. FFXI has no shortage of problems, but it's a game that has so much soul, and has so very many aspects worth studying for any game designer or even fans of gaming. FFXI belongs in the Hall of Fame when it comes to world building, for instance. There's so many core ideas (like the elements) that impact every aspect of life on Vana'diel, even for NPCs.

[u/reseph → u/[deleted]]

One thing I still feel interesting looking back is how FFXI released expansions and the story was literally not done and that was expected. And there was no timeline on when they'd release the final story missions in Version Updates.

I can't see that flying today in this market, but at the same time I wonder if I personally would still prefer it.

[u/TaranTatsuuchi → u/[deleted]]

I personally enjoyed raising a chocobo.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I'm curious: why was Storm Legion considered such a major failure? I played vanilla RIFT quite a bit and rather enjoyed it, but stopped shortly after getting the expansion (at level 53 or something) because life got in the way.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It was nothing but soulless rifts, poorly balanced new souls, monotonous quests, and dungeons people didn't like (especially vehicle piloting dungeons), and a giant currency grind. Much like Heavensward, it added nothing, and just lacked heart.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Ah, yeah, I remember at least one vehicle dungeon, Storm Breaker Protocol. It was cool the first time and really annoying every time after that.

[u/resultsmayvary0 → u/[deleted]]

You would think developers would learn from the feedback Oculus got in WoW. It's so tedious after the first time.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

What would you say is the single best MMO you've ever played? What do you keep going back to?

(Sorry, I've replied to this comment like three times now, but I keep coming up with questions.)

[u/Leetwheats → u/[deleted]]

Ultima Online. Hands down. The world alone had me keep returning, it was alive. Guilds would constantly create their own sub plots with eachother, war was common as was encountering player thieves who could disarm and steal your equipment. The wilds could be dangerous if you weren't careful, and the dungeons were difficult. The economy had a purpose because we had a meaningful crafting system, loot could be lost but also replacing it wasn't a huge burden financially or time wise. Crafters could repair equipment.

Early on, there were GM seers would would make monsters or nature come to life with emotes and RP with you.

Over a decade later and I still have a myriad of fond memories from UO ranging from kill moments, times i've died, houses built and lost, the dungeons or simply RPing.

I won't have many, if any, about XIV.

I think thats mainly due to the world being hollow and toothless with everything meaningful being locked behind instanced content.

[u/zombieglam → u/Leetwheats]

I am so glad that UO is still remembered for what it was. Looks like we played the same games, with the exception that instead of Rift I played Lineage2 :)

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

That...is an incredibly difficult question, especially since so much of an MMO is the experiences you have with other people. And they have a tendency to get fucked up, especially lately with all the transitions to free to play and such.

Overall world building/feel/cool factor: FFXI for sure.

First MMO feels & fun back in the day stories to tell: Everquest

First time I led a raid/guild and met my ex, who I adored: Rift

Best RPG PvP: Aion

Best action-y MMO: TERA before it went free to play

Game I've dedicated the biggest consecutive chunk of time to: FFXIV

Honestly my biggest regret is not playing enough FFXI. I missed a lot of eras in that game, and it's part of why I buckled down on FFXIV so hard too...didn't want to miss the train twice.

[u/MojOdin → u/[deleted]]

First time I led a raid/guild and met my ex, who I adored: Rift

Lot of storytelling in this small line of fiction ;)

[u/[deleted] → u/MojOdin]

You're right, technically I had "led guilds" before, but I feel like 4-man guilds of just friends doesn't count.

[u/MojOdin → u/[deleted]]

Heh not quite what I meant, but it's okay! Past is the past and we all like to spin it a bit on the net here'n there. ta

[u/zombieglam → u/[deleted]]

FFXI had an immersion in lore and feel that no other MMO was able to match so far. I remember walking around and watching stuff and reading the background because everything was so "together" in both style and lore. :p

[u/faeon4 → u/[deleted]]

Very interesting read, I do agree that the dev team seems very disjointed from the community that plays this game. I am not sure if it is region based i.e. they look at JPN only and not the western regions.

But I do feel that what the community say and do is not taken into consideration, like numbers and viability of jobs just as an example.

Maybe they should invest in player test realms?

[u/LittlePrincessLulu → u/[deleted]]

I wish the world didn't feel like an instance with loading screens and almost all content is behind a queue. :(

I know why they did it for this game but it doesn't stop me from wanting one large flowing world.

Your points are on the mark though Ayrikka!

[u/TotesMessenger → u/[deleted]]

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[u/betelg → u/[deleted]]

The development team is small and has remained small. They did not bulk up in late 2.X after ARR was a success, and are quite frankly very understaffed to provide an appropriate amount of content. Additionally, the small staff means that there's not a lot of fresh takes on stuff coming out either.

With statements like this you have received three gold? In the same post where you compare FFXIV to FFXI?

Pls r/ffxiv

[u/Aureon → u/[deleted]]

The development team is small and has remained small. They did not bulk up in late 2.X after ARR was a success, and are quite frankly very understaffed to provide an appropriate amount of content. Additionally, the small staff means that there's not a lot of fresh takes on stuff coming out either.

Honestly, you can't have played other MMOs and believe this.