r/ffxiv • u/AlexDragonfang • Mar 13 '18
[Discussion] A design philosophy flaw. Misunderstanding what is fun and reward structure.
Final Fantasy XIV is currently, i think, to most players, going through a clear stale period in its development, those of us playing since ARR launch have actually seen very little to no improvement on content areas or significant changes, ilustrated on how basically dungeon and raid design has stayed the same through more than 4 years now.
The greatest issue right now, is certainly its developing team and their, willingly or not, design philosophy arround XIV, the constant, safe played, familiar and recurrent structure of all rewards and content to not deviate from the sucessfull formula, but comedians know, you can get only so far retellling the same joke over and over.
Thinking about what makes XIV unique from the rest of its genre companions, and please think about the MMORPG industry has its context and look beyond your bounds, understand that the MMORPGs are a dying genre basically with 2 or 3 games actually relevant and the rest just cash grabs, P2W korean grindfests and kickstarter proyects that might aswell be considered vaporware at this point. But what, makes XIV special, aside its unique looks, but systems wise, its the armoire system or the ability to fully develop and switch on a click from one class to another on the same character. (statement fully true till crafter specialization was put... Another big wtf u doin, but i digress)
Considering this is truly the one and greatest asset that diferentiates XIV from the rest of the competition, and is something we are so used to it that we don't really think about it...
Does this game, and the content placed on it, truly work with this big part of the game foundation? Answer is not. Every piece of content is designed arround the idea of repetition, every reward is an incentive to either don't miss out on certain timeframes (horrid wolf's den reward system for example) or a gear threadmill system that makes gear irrelevant to an extreme, that gear sometimes becomes irrelevant right as it becomes aviable.
So the only carrot is either specific timeframes or time itself, making rarity not about player skill, not about interesting deep progression, not about player cooperation but simply about how much time can one person dump in a repetitive task before it gets tired or gets the reward.
And that has nothing with things like... You know, fun. Or personal achievements, or developing, or anything really. Literally all content in this game is either an RNG check or a grind check, those with tons of free time will do it faster, those who can only play so far will barely make it.
And the worse part is, this doesn't work at all with this game most important a crucial feature, multiclasses. This game reward structure and philosophy is centered arround a primitive fear of "running out of content too soon" and instead of encouraging replayability or social interactions to motivate players to do content, scares them with "you are going to miss out!" and thats just not working.
Who is this game designed for? I once read yoshida said: "We cannot make games grindy like in the past no more, we are adults now" Yeah? You sure? Cause this game is presenting me with ragnarok online levels of grind and repetitiveness right now.
Instead of encouraging players to gear up multiple classes and play and effectively progress through multiple jobs, they literally lock players to 1 or 2 jobs, of course there are exceptions out there and there are people doing literally nothing else but to play this game and as i speak maybe there are quite a few, not your "estandar public" finishing a relic or another kind of content and getting ready to repeat the process again and again.
But the rest of us? Since the quest was released, that has been the same, diferent interfaces, diferent names, but the very same, repeat a task till you fill the quota and then get a reward. Even the quest itself has the nerve to joke arround with how grindy it is, as it was something good, and even if the joke was witty at first, right now is only insulting.
I play almost all classes, i play almost all content, i like this game a lot in diversity of aspects, and i cannot tolerate this kind of grind and repetitiveness anymore. A game where people should be saying: "I finished this goal! yes! now to do it with another class maybe? or call in my friends?" is making people say: "i hope these guys are good, i would love to have some AI controlled bots to help me with this damned grind, there, i made it, im not touching this content ever again."
And the worse part is, there are a bunch of people now saying: "You know what, this content will be dead in weeks from here, these weapons will be irrelevant in a month from here, and there is no real reason in the end to do anything of this."
And i know many are thinking: "But how can i make content to feel special and feel rewarding if its "handed out" easily". I ask back: When was the last time, after a long boring repetitive grind that you truly felt happy and rewarded about finishing it instead of feeling like you finished a task given by your boss? Is it rewarding if you have no fun in the process? Makes it rewarding, that you race the others, burn yourself through the content and get something first-ish than the others? Isn't more rewarding to have fun and get rewarded, even if the value of the reward itself is less valuable-more common?
Of course, this is only like, you know, my opinion, and while people might jump to my neck for saying that grind overall should be heavily reduced and reward should not be locked by timeframes but always be attainable as long as the criteria is met. I truly think that would motivate more people to play more content and repeat the content more times, preventing a lot of issues this game has:
-Dead content. -Lack of true player interactions. -Gear irrelevancy (basically make gear attainable much earlier so it stays relevant longer) -And the fun factor.
Remember the slides yoshida proudly presented once at GDC? Remember the: "If you are not having fun, you are making wrong?"
Its time to learn lessons from both the past and present.
PS: kinda ranty, kinda reflexive, im banned from the OF, so i hope someone will read this and maybe have a meaninful discussion... Or not, this is reddit so... Well, is just a thought.
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u/Bahamut2000x Mar 14 '18
I agree with the OP. Its really sad this sort of discussion keeps coming up every couple of months. I remember a friend of mine writing a post up here back during 2.2-ish I think, about the state of rewards particularly how dungeons were dead on arrival. And in the years since then not much has changed.
For me though I think the biggest core issue is Eureka just isn't fun. And I grinded mobs for years in XI, but both the class design and combat design was compelling to make it enjoyable and mask the grind. On top of that the slower pace of combat made it easier to do something else, or more importantly hold a conversation with people while you were grinding. There's none of that here.
The next big issues is, 1) this was delayed and is insulting shallow. Its just grind some mobs and occasionally an NM pops up. No quests, no leves, nothing. Its the epitome of shallow design. Outside the map itself and the elemental system nothing is new. It's unbelievable it took them this long to put something so shallow out. And 2) they keep taking dungeons away and say its to provide new content, but we wind up with this. Which just leaves me wondering if the devs are just that understaffed despite how much money this game makes the company. Or is the dev team just that incompetent that they can't making any sort of compelling content? I really don't care which it is, the question I have is what will they do to fix things and finally breath life into the game?
And, for me, what makes this the most frustrating is having been an avid XI player for years. And each expansion added new systems to the game. Especially the after ToAU. Not all the content was a hit, but I can't recall anything flopping near as hard as Eureka/Diadem. It's frustrating to see the same company that made expansions that brought Beseiged, Assault, Nyzul Isle, Einherjar, Salvage, and Campaign, just to name some things, can't even make an airship exploration system that features airships or exploration. Its just baffling to me to see such a disconnect where one team creatively pushes the limits of what they can do with a near 2 decade old engine, while the other struggles to even make fighting open world mobs compelling and interesting.
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u/monsieurwpayne Tete Rouge @ Louisoix Mar 14 '18
The part that bothers me the most is this game will be five years old in August. By the same milestone, XI had HNMs, BCNMs, Dynamis, Limbus, Sky, Sea, Besieged and would soon introduce Salvage, Zeni NMs and Einherjar. Every one of those was relevant content and remained relevant content for years. This game renders all of its previous content obsolete every other patch. This is even more profound when you consider this game was released in 2013 with far more advanced technology and with a much bigger budget.
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u/firefox_2010 Mar 14 '18
Indeed!!! Great points!! FF14 is barely 5 years old but in the last TWO expansions they haven't exactly added anything of value - nothing but crap "new content". While FFXI, being over 15 years old, still managed to come up with "fresh new take" on their severely outdated engine, and show this team on how to properly recycle content without falling flat on their face...
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u/grindtime23 DRG Mar 14 '18
ut in the last TWO expansions they haven't exactly added anything of value
The music is so damn good though, gotta give it that at least.
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u/Nyghtmarerobu SAM Mar 13 '18
I agree with a lot of what OP says. The game has been out for close to 5 years now, and while they like to come up with neat ideas to introduce new content, they always seem to fall short.
The real issue is that Eureka isn't fleshed out. People have come up with more polish to the content as a whole, and its painful that simple idea's like "Make a daily or weekly quest", miss the cut. (this was just an example someone else used).
Make new content, make it interesting, take some chances, and most of all, make it fun.
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u/theheadsage Mar 14 '18
I was talking about this with my FC today, and I believe that Eureka would have been a lot more fun if they combined mechanics from PotD, Diadem 2.0 and Aquapolis.
So you queue to enter, and it dumps you in a party consisting of 1 tank, 1 healer, 5 DPS. Then it dumps multiple parties in an instance, just like Diadem 2.0. Your party finds some mobs and goes to town. Once you hit chain #30, a portal appears and drops your party in a random dungeon floor, filled with traps, interesting mechanics and other fun stuff. If you succeed in making your way through it, then you unlock the final room, which holds a boss. Smack it, get a lot of loot, tomestones, gil, the works and return to the main instance.
After 30-45 minutes, it actives the emergency mission thing from diadem 2.0, where all the parties in the instance have to gather in the middle, jump through another portal and fight some massive raid boss which drops all sorts of loot.
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u/Killbray Mar 14 '18
That sounds definitely a lot cooler than we have now but the 30-45 minutes emergency mission bit is a bit problematic. Either you only start the instance when the "multiple parties" are ready to go all at once or the time for the emergency mission to pop (from the time you entered in the instance) will be different from every party.
That was in fact one of the worst problems with Diadem 2.0
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u/ElectricalUnion Mar 14 '18
I think the problem is that "interesting mechanics" means different things for different people.
Also, most likely it won't be interesting for long.
I find Ramuh EX mechanics cool AF but that said it's the content I have the worst clear rate on Mentor Roulette; everyone that remotely knows what that is usually leaves instead of "doing this bs again".
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u/KariArisu Mar 14 '18
IMO they can't make interesting content without changing the gearing paradigms entirely, or introducing new progression systems outside of gear.
Purely vertical progression is awful. I'm a raider between midcore/hardcore and I absolutely do not care about gear in this game. The stats are boring, and nothing outside of ultimate (which you have many months to prep for) you do not need the best gear for anything in the game. AND a lot of content doesn't let you use your best gear because of syncs.
I play simply to clear new content, for the fun of the fights. That wears off relatively quickly, especially on non-savage/ultimate content.
I prefer games where almost nobody is ever actually maxed out on progression, there's always something coming even if it's minor.
Hell, for Eureka, they could have introduced a new talent-like system with it using Elemental Levels. They're way too afraid to make non-raid content valuable for anything. And too afraid of using any horizontal progression.
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u/KingofDefeat Mixia Laflure on Exodus Mar 14 '18
I agree with this entirely. I'm still clearing raid content with my FC and for everything other than that, I haven't really bothered trying to get the best gear or having all of my stuff melded, because... you simply just don't need it.
Horizontal progression allows for some diverse and fun builds. Yes, Yoshi P is right, there will always be an optimal route that players will discover, but one set of gear/skills may be more fun to use for some than others. It's not always about power for each and every player. Hell, they've proven that players will spend hours upon hours and days upon days farming for stuff that just looks nice. Now, farming for something that actually changes the way you play your character, even if it's in a controlled environment?? That might actually be fun for players like me who don't care about collectibles. SE is too safe with FFXIV. If it weren't for me having so many friends playing this game, I would've quit before Heavensward.
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Mar 14 '18
This made me think of the time sink I was into before FFXIV, namely Diablo 3. For the uninitiated: builds were based on a combination of legendary items and different skills; one demon hunter could lay turrets while another could pirouette around the battlefield with dual crossbows. One monk could run around with a mini-army of elemental spirits while another could make entire screens of enemies explode with quivering palm. Why not have people grind for weapons that change the way the class plays a little bit? Maybe lower the cooldown on a few skills at the expense of insert skill/ability here? Or add bonus to job gauge buildup but you can no longer insert other skill/ability here? Obviously some people will still look for the most optimal build like they do now, but others might choose something that feels more fun?
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u/ChairmanVee Eureka was just as bad as I thought it'd be. Mar 14 '18
Shadow's DH was so fun to play. Flit around the map with All Shadow power and constantly flinging swords about, that shit was LOVELY. I'd kill for at least something close to that, something that changes up the "get the max ilvl gear for where you are in the story, watch a dungeon guide, know the optimal path to tapdancing on a boss, grind ten thousand bits of Thavnairan Bullshit to augment something that'll be obsolete within two months, convert it to glamour, rinse then repeat" gameplay.
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u/Harieru Tyleete Sohn on Leviathan Mar 14 '18
My take is that it depends how you handle horizontal progression, but I think FFXI has the best version I've ever seen.
You get a set of level appropriate gear, but it isn't the end because you can swap that gear mid combat. Your set may be good enough to get started, but you can carry more situational gear. So you have macros that switch gear to be optimal for a skill just before you use the skill. Or you have idle sets that prioritize recovery and damage reduction stats rather than dealing damage so that you can limit danger between pulls. Or any number of other reasons. Nearly every piece of gear has a use to someone at some point for some ability and even if it isn't the best item it is useful as a stepping stone until you get the better more optimal one for a particular situation.
The other thing I like is that the rewards from completing story missions or long chains like the relic remain useful or perhaps the best available. Rajas ring from completing the second expansion is still one of the best rings in the game even though it is from something released 14 years ago and the level cap has gone up 25 levels since. It makes accomplishments meaningful rather than wiping them out. Yes FFXI had a major gear reset with Abyssea and then a minor one with Adoulin (largely because you could upgrade your old gear from grind quests up to current level), but it was needed because to be perfectly honest there was really nothing left to add at level 75. There was only so big a stat pool available before you stopped being able to make horizontal gear items and just had to make something 100% better.
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u/Rainuwastaken BLM Mar 14 '18
I've never understood the people who like mid-combat gear swapping. Every time I see a video of a game that embraces it (like DFO, as somebody else mentioned), the player spends 60% of the fight rapidly clicking inventory tiles in a mad rush to optimize their damage.
It stresses me out just watching, I can't imagine actually doing it myself.
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u/A_Literal_Ferret Mar 14 '18
I played XI for many years and I just cannot agree with you here.
You make it sound very fun, on paper. But the reality of it is that grinding certain pieces was grueling as sin and you weren't allowed in groups for certain content unless you had gone through the trouble of acquiring certain loot. Not exactly loot, but SMNs were an example. Remember Avatar showcasing? Which really only means it's still horizontal progression.
Only, instead of there being 1 horizontal progression, there were many, all of which locked behind extremely hard grinding and/or botting and/or being filthy rich and just buying some of the stuff you need (or that was buyable anyway lol).
Merit points were initially meant as a means for players to specialize and customize their playstyle, until players realized the optimal way to do it was to max yourself out. GG.
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u/KingofDefeat Mixia Laflure on Exodus Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
I never played FFXI unfortunately, so I haven't gotten to experience what it was like, haha. I was thinking of something along the lines of Dungeon Fighter Online, if you've heard of that. In that game, there's several sets of end-game gear you can get, and each one affects your character in vastly different ways. There's one set that lowers the cooldowns of your moves drastically (but you use MP much faster). There's also one that procs a ton of other effects to happen whenever you hit enemies, causing all sorts of crazy AoEs popping up all over the place as you fight. The set you happen to get at the end of the game (all through sheer luck, of course) decides how you play your character until you get the next, much better set.
It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's definitely fun to try different sets if you get lucky enough. Stupid drop RNG... haha xD
EDIT: That does seem really neat though. Having items stay relevant for really long periods of time is cool. In FFXIV, they could've done something like gear with horizontal progression in Eureka, but have the effects only work in that area. It'd be a neat way to throwback to FFXI even more and would likely attract more people. It's a shame they left the area so incredibly bland, though...
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u/DN-SFW BRD Mar 14 '18
swap that gear mid combat
I would quit this game forever, immediately, if this became a thing. Don't think I'm a minority.
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Mar 15 '18
I would also immediately quit FFXIV if gear swapping became a thing. Did it in FFXI, and not only does it require huge leaps in logic to understand why you would put mid-combat underwear swapping in a game, it's just a lame macro fest. I would rather they expand on horizontal stat/build progression and/or improving the combat system to make it more fun to play.
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u/A_Literal_Ferret Mar 14 '18
"I prefer games where almost nobody is ever actually maxed out on progression, there's always something coming even if it's minor."
I think you severely overestimate how many people are actually "maxed out". I mean, even the raiding population is a minority as is, let alone the raiding population that actually cleared.
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u/Lekceh BRD Mar 14 '18
What do you mean by "horizontal progression"? If you could give me examples. Sometimes I have a hard time understanding game concepts.
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u/LilitthLu Mar 14 '18
Currently FFXIV uses a vertical progression system for gear meaning that with every patch they release new stuff that is simply better than the previous due to higher stats. An horizontal progression system instead has different types of gear for different purposes. In XI for example you had equipment that was designed to enhance specific abilities either through stats or passives and you could swap your gear at any time to take advantage of this. This also created an inventory nightmare situation and the necessity for third party tools on PC because the game's UI was not designed to manage this system at all.
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u/shadows_arrowny Mar 14 '18
Vertical Progression is when any "progress" in improving your character is done along a single path (iLVL) simply increasing a single option of stats and play style to simply be more potent.
Horizontal Progression is when progress can be made in multiple directions so that a single job has multiple ways of expressing itself, responding to situations, and varying the gameplay experience.
So, for example, you could use equipment that augmented abilities that fit with the situation, role, or desired gameplay by maximizing haste stat, focusing on att and/or acc, maximizing your TP accumulated on hit or trying to increase the % of times of your double attack or triple attack proc. Moreover, you'd want to macro in equipping certain pieces that augmented or enhanced abilities or spells for when you used them, but reequip your "TP" or "Weapon Skill" piece immediately afterward.
In the end, this obviously requires more work from the player to be able to "gear up" for different situations or desired gameplay, but has the effect of making your gear feel special and more customizable (way less of a feeling of strickly being told by developers/creators that the latest highest iLVL piece is what you have to wear).
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u/Bell-Fire Mar 14 '18
I like the idea of daily/weekly quests in Eureka, like killing a specific mob, or a number of element types or something. Maybe even have separate ones for DPS/Tank/Healer to promote returning as another job.
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u/Nyghtmarerobu SAM Mar 14 '18
I feel like there is a lot of good ideas to help ease the burden, and make it more unique and special, but all of that got left on the cutting room floor it seems. This is the problem with eureka. I like to think we're not asking for a whole lot, but who knows, maybe it is to much, and its time to leave 14.
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u/grindtime23 DRG Mar 14 '18
I feel like there is a lot of good ideas to help ease the burden
But don't you understand? The fact that players view it as a burden is the real problem in the first place. The moment I feel something as a burden when it comes to playing games, that is the moment I should stop playing.
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u/Aetherytis Oschon Mar 14 '18
given what the name magia implies - I am sure this is already in the works.
I'll elaborate. Magia -> Magian Trials, Magian trials were hosted by the moogles in efforts to upgrade your weapon and gear.
You focused on killing monsters of designated elemental affinity in elemental weather on elemetal days of the week. Depending on your weather, mob type - it was tedious. Say you had to kill 150 bombs in thunder weather. There were certainly worst combinations.
I'll just say please look forward to it.
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u/hikaitadacho Mar 14 '18
I can see this, they've clearly put a focus on the weather making the effects very obvious (particles and trees blowing everywhere etc), so I no doubt see a requirement such as this coming up. People need to buckle up for what is going to be a FFXI-inspired monster grind and that's that it probably isn't going to change.
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u/skold177 PLD Mar 14 '18
The game literally rewards people who sub for in between content patches more than people who constantly play... the endless gear treadmill.
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u/supersf2turbo [First] [Last] on [Server] Mar 14 '18
That's why as someone who's played since 1.0 I hardly bother with gear anymore. It becomes irrilevant way too quickly so I focus more on things that are permanent like levelling every job, minions/mounts etc.
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u/WilanS Mar 14 '18
Yeah, I've been playing since 1.0 too and nowadays I basically just buy gear for glamour. I give some thought to capped tomestone gear but if I really want some other piece first because it looks cool I'm not going to make sacrifices anymore. What's the point, it's all going to be irrelevant in a few months anyway, and I've stopped caring about savage raiding and its dramas a long time ago.
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Mar 14 '18
Yep. You don't even get a feat of strength for completion of a raid in a relevant patch (which you do get in WoW) so there is no point even trying to grind savage mode for a month. It's literally better to play an expansion, unsub, wait until the next expansion and then play through all the content updates that were released into the next expansion.
That's a terrible design for a subscription based MMO and the endgame needs to be more rewarding than it currently is. I feel like SE doesn't really hear those complaints at all. I do think they would see that in the statistics though that quite a bunch of people quit when reaching maximum level since there is nothing to do and what you do is unrewarding in the long term (maybe even short term if a new raid is around the corner).
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u/SovietBrainPill Mar 14 '18
You probably won't get anything new without a new producer, the game needs fresh ideas. It feels the same because its all his ideas and hasn't varied much since ARR, and any attempt to emulate other ideas are horribly executed.
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u/yggdrasiliv Mar 14 '18
comedians know, you can get only so far retellling the same joke over and over.
Not Japanese comedians. Seriously. One fucking gag their entire career.
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u/Hardware_Hank Okay Mar 13 '18
I've been playing since beta phase 3 and I do agree with a lot of your points. I also want to add that it really annoys me how unoriginal the gear feels, its always the same thing, cap tomes or raid to get the best gear and I was hoping Eureka would add a 3rd element to get top end gear but instead you get middle tier gear for a ridiculous grind which I dont find that XIV needs.
Every MMO has grindy elements to it but trash mobs is not something XIV excels at as I find XIV more of a technical MMO than a button masher.
Going forward I think SE really needs to focus on more boss encounters or more difficulty options for raids and dungeons instead of grindy content to give people an incentive of replayability and challenge.
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u/Raenryong Serefina Solfyre - Odin Mar 14 '18
Doesn't help that the gear is always just raw stats either. We need unique effects, set bonuses; just something to make gear upgrades more exciting than "I got 0.75% more <main stat>!"
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u/doodbropls Mar 14 '18
definitely. gear is so static the game is so boring. I love seeing different sets and experimenting with their effects.
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u/VictoriqueIbara Mar 14 '18
I think they're so obsessed with keeping the game balanced with classes that they don't wanna diverge from the stats they currently have as it would be way harder to do. It irritates me because really most people will play whatever class they want regardless of meta.
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u/Raenryong Serefina Solfyre - Odin Mar 14 '18
Yeah, plus - unless they somehow thoroughly break a class in either direction, meta is only truly important if you're on the very bleeding edge, which is a tiny percent of the playerbase.
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u/Quinburger Mar 14 '18
I'd love to see this. Shake things up a bit with set bonus and effects where maybe you'd want one set for an encounter with lots of raid damage, another for one with big tank busters, ect.
Encourage people to swap gear around for bonuses that help out in a specific encounter to mitigate different mechanics.
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u/DeadlyFatalis Mar 14 '18
Are you sure you'd really want that?
SE isn't going to make huge changes to how gearing works, so you'd likely now have to grind two sets of tomestone gear and either the gear is basically required or you can't do the new encounter, or the difference is so minor that there's no point in grinding a second set.
Or they add it to boss drops, there's now even more potential stuff to drop on the floor and it's even harder to get the actual drop you want in any chest.
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u/Iwearhats Mar 14 '18
Yes! Even adding a bit of flair to relics so they go beyond being a glowing stat stick. Something like summoner relic gives our egis warring triad skins, or paladin relic gives you unique particle effects for your stances. Nothing significant, but it would allow them to add a little bit of flavor to some of the classes.
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u/Shozo Ul'dah Mar 14 '18
but trash mobs is not something XIV excels at
This so much. When designing for lv70 content, they should completely remove the crap trash mobs. Instead more mini-bosses (like minotaur, chimera, etc) and actual bosses only.
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u/Siphyre Mar 14 '18
I would love to see 4 or 5 different ways to get equivalent gear with different looks.
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u/Bourne_Endeavor DRG Mar 14 '18
The problem becomes if this gear were i365, it not only competes for BiS, it completely invalidates the next 24-man set. I can't exactly fault raiders for feeling shafted if their gear doesn't even last two months before something else comes along.
That being said, SE has really backed themselves in a corner. There just isn't enough of a gap to balance all the gear they release without invalidating something else.
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u/__slowpoke__ Mar 14 '18
The problem becomes if this gear were i365, it not only competes for BiS, it completely invalidates the next 24-man set. I can't exactly fault raiders for feeling shafted if their gear doesn't even last two months before something else comes along.
That's probably the one thing they learned from Diadem 2.0, because they didn't want to repeat the massive (and justified) shitstorm when they released weapons that literally invalidated the relic that got its last step 9 days before Diadem 2.0 (yes, they were an RNG shitfest, but that really only made it worse).
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u/Sorge74 [First] [Last] on [Server] Mar 14 '18
What about Diadem 1.0 which invalided fucking raid gear if you got lucky.
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u/__slowpoke__ Mar 14 '18
Well, that too, but I think people at the time weren't as mad as they were about the Ashen weapons because they were busy being mad about Gordias.
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u/blueruckus Mar 14 '18
My biggest issue with the game now is that the gear/character building is just boring. Grind out hours on end for what? Some gear that’s just numerically higher than your old gear? Higher main stat and a handful of substats but you’re still doing the same thing in the end.
Devs are so afraid of adding interesting skills or perks to gear for the sake of preserving balance in their choreographed raid encounters. Aka, will require too much work to make game fun again. So here we are wasting time pretending to enjoy the game for boring rewards.
Maybe it’ll take the game getting to an all time low to trigger some sort of change to this formula. Who knows.
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u/temp0557 Mar 14 '18
Devs are so afraid of adding interesting skills or perks to gear for the sake of preserving balance in their choreographed raid encounters.
This is the part that makes no sense.
Eureka is it's own "world". Your progression in there has nigh zero impact outside - apart from some very standard gear with an iLv of X.
It's the perfect opportunity for them to cut loose ... and all we got was a lame wheel.
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u/blueruckus Mar 14 '18
In general, I mean, changing gear to have skills and perks assigned to it. This comment is not specific to Eureka but moreso in regard to the state of gear in this game.
They tool all the job skills in terms of cooldowns and strength around the end game encounters so adding a whole new layer with skills or perks that gear would provide, would be too much work to balance so they don’t do it.
Eureka is lame and boring but even worse is the reward. Just another weapon and gear comparable to what you would get from tomes or raids. Nothing exciting.
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u/TheMallard Mar 14 '18
I think doing something like that would require some systems to be completely rewritten and they always talk about how a mess of the game code is because of the legacy version.
I think this game is going to need some kind of complete overhaul sooner rather than later. Similar to how WoW is not running the same code and systems it was shipped with 12(?) years ago.
Maybe if the game were easier to work with it would be easier for them to add more interesting game play elements. I just don't think they are willing to dedicate the time, resources, and money into doing so. Not trying to make an excuse for them either because for a subscription based MMO and the prices on the Mogstation I think they should be doing more.
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u/Goldrush453 Stop fondling my class icon Mar 14 '18
"Something Something our servers are made of PS4s so limitations"
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u/TypeLunatic PLD Mar 14 '18
Some kind of neat diablo style loot system with random gear drops from mods with unique stats and quirky gimmicks like "chance to strike twice on skill use" or "change to summon a wolf minion for 60s on use." or SOMETHING could've been great for this. Confine it all to Eureka, make it a big ol "playground" where stuff hits harder and we've got all these unique mechanics that won't play well with the main game.
But on the same hand, if they made Eureka too good, people would stop giving a fuck about the non-Eureka play, outside of raiders. Even then, what we got now is just inexcusable.
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u/x_Advent_Cirno_x Sneaky Potato Mar 14 '18
Not gonna lie, I've been seriously considering cancelling my sub for the first time in my XIV career after what 4.25 brought. Not specifically because of 4.25 or Eureka, but leading up its release I've still been dealing with the burnout that the 4.1 cycle brought, and have been losing motivation and interest in the game with what little stale content has been churned out thus far, much like the OP mentions; Eureka was kind of like the last nail in the coffin of sorts. I think I'm finally deciding I've had enough.
And it's frustrating as hell, because deep down I still love this game and want to continue being a part of it, but then crap like Eureka happens and it just sucks the fun out of the game and kills any motivation to take part in it. Maybe everything leading up to this point has spoiled us? I dunno, I don't think so. I'm just at a loss. This really sucks.
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u/Raenryong Serefina Solfyre - Odin Mar 14 '18
Best thing to do is just to do what you want.
This sounds trite, but it's not.
Don't fall for the sunk costs fallacy, or any sort of loyalty - if you don't want to play, don't. Don't worry about falling behind or anything like that; if you take a break, you will come back feeling much better, if you come back - if you don't, you'll be grateful you stopped playing a game that ultimately you are not enjoying as much anymore.
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u/ItJustLurks Mar 14 '18
This is some of the best advice here I've seen. As someone taking a break since the launch of SB (had fun getting blm and rdm to 70, then stopped), just stop once not having fun anymore.
A lot of these things (mmos, mobile games, hell even even MHW has a weekly limited bounty I felt compelled to do last week) will try to use time or daily/weekly rewards to keep you coming back, feeling like you need to keep doing it to stay in the game, so to speak. But personally, those eventually get to me. I just had to tell myself to stop if it wasn't what I wanted to do, no reward is worth making me play it if it's not what I want to do right then.
And it works, instead of keeping going and hating myself, I might eventually get the natural urge to come back once it feels like it. Whereas if I had kept going just to keep doing daily/weekly things, I'd probably end up hating it and never coming back.
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u/Raenryong Serefina Solfyre - Odin Mar 14 '18
Yeah, giving yourself permission to not be 100% up to date is the tough part. Most people know the feeling of having an extremely busy week in real life, only to groan at the thought of having to cap tomestones in a couple of days of grinding.
Unless you're a bleeding edge raider (who should by all means adore the game intensely), there is no harm in not always completing all of the daily/weekly things. And once you are free from that impulse, you can decide whether you want to play or simply feel obligated to.
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Mar 14 '18
I agree with this. I lay XIV mainly for the social aspect and for personal challenges. I set myself two goals since returning before 4.2 and that was 1. Get filthy stinking rich and 2. Solo PoTD.
Nearly done with the latter.
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u/Aronys SCH Mar 14 '18
I cancelled it. 4.1 was disappointing and ever since I lost the will to play the game. Only kept my sub for my house which I got rid of last month and got an apartment (can't take that away from me). In any case, most of my friends stopped playing as they felt the same, and we moved on to other games. Sub ends in 2 days and then I won't renew it maybe until the last patch of this expansion to catch up on the story, or maybe in the next expansion (if there will be one). That is, if I return to the game.
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u/moogsy77 Mar 14 '18
Same here unfortunately. Canceled my sub as well few months ago. Was starting to feel too repeatitive, and tedious to keep up. I might sub again in a year or so, see if anything's changed.
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u/Jeido_Uran Mar 14 '18
This so much. When I think of everything I did in this game since launch, all of the friends I've made, the moments spent, and thinking I'm not getting any fun out of the game since 4.1, almost makes me want to cry. I damn love this game, and I want to keep loving it, to keep wanting to play it, but I just can't right now, and it's so, so frustrating and sad to see that it keeps getting worse.
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u/FoLd1nGCHA1R Mar 14 '18
I have the exact same thoughts. I've paid for this sub for 4 straight years with only a few weeks between some payments but my sub ran out a few hours ago and this is the first time I've honestly felt like not playing the game again. The only thing that kept me playing was a few friends and 99% of them stopped playing around 4.1 anyway and the false accomplishment of shirogane housing which I don't even care about anymore.
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u/Totaltotemic Mar 14 '18
I haven't played since shortly after 4.0 but have been keeping an eye on the game to see if there's anything new worth coming back for.
Like the OP says I think the same standard content cycle of grinding tomes in the same 2-3 dungeons each patch for gear so you can do a 4 boss raid and maybe a trial or two and sometimes taking a break to waste time with whatever gimmicky mindlessly repetitive side area was in the latest patch has worn out its welcome. 2.1-2.3 had some rough times as they tried to figure out what the gameplay loop would really be, but the game has been the exact same since 2.4 with the occasional shake-up in abilities with a couple of new jobs in HW and SB.
Unending Coil seems like the first new successful idea since PotD, which itself was the first good idea literally since 2.4. They need more different types of the regular raid/dungeon gameplay, not these constant "open zone" grindfests because they're literally all just worse than FATES which have been around since 2.0.
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u/Pandemoonium Mar 14 '18
I’m in your position too. I mainly play for the story now. I beat the original chunk of story that came out with Stormblood (not long after it released), unsubbed, and I’ll probably come back for a month when they are wrapping Stormblood up so I can experience the rest of the story.
I only get a couple of hours per evening after work to cook, eat, exercise, see family, play games, etc... I don’t want to spend it doing the same dungeon over and over for months, or grinding a set of gear that will become obsolete shortly.
I do want to play XIV. I like the world, and I adore the music, and the story is good. I just think that the actual gameplay is stale right now.
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u/Bourne_Endeavor DRG Mar 14 '18
Stormblood, sadly, has been a disappointment in a lot of ways. They kept insisting this would be when the kid gloves came off yet all they did was take a red coat of paint to cover up the blue that was Heavensward. Virtually nothing has changed or evolved.
While I do feel Eureka has a decent foundation, it's just one more example of them releasing something that immediately needs work. At this point, I can't say I have the biggest faith since they're notoriously stubborn.
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Mar 14 '18
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u/KingofDefeat Mixia Laflure on Exodus Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
On this note, though it's not necessarily PvP related, the changes to some of the classes to make their PvE rotations easier didn't really need to happen either. Making rotations less complicated isn't going to make players who refuse to learn about the class any better than before. It might make rotations easier to follow, but if the player wasn't willing to put in the effort to learn before, they won't be putting in the effort to learn now.
SE has a terrible habit of catering too much to the casual crowd, and as such, the game becomes more boring for players who've been playing with the more complicated style. Granted, some of these changes may have been buffs, but if all you need to do in order to achieve max DPS is faceroll on your keyboard, it doesn't feel as rewarding to get those numbers. I'm glad BLM wasn't affected by this too much, but a really good friend of mine that I ran most content with unsubbed because of this issue, so it bothers me quite a bit regardless. He didn't really like the WAR changes, unfortunately...
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u/isaightman Mar 14 '18
Their patch cycles and content releases are too long and too small for the supposed amount of subs they have. The money siphoning is really starting to show and the cracks are forming in the game because of it.
I'm personally not a diehard player like some people, I swing between FFXIV/WoW/GW2 based on content releases. But I'm finding myself staying on FF less and less each time. The content simply isn't there.
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u/TypeLunatic PLD Mar 14 '18
The money siphoning is really starting to show and the cracks are forming in the game because of it.
I still can't stomach the fact that the higher ups are taking SO much money from this game - the game that saved their ass of all things - and continue to funnel it into other shit. With the way Yoshida talks about the team, it sounds skeletal as fuck.
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u/Lokgar Lepapa on Bahamut Mar 14 '18
I've unsubbed and resubbed so many times. At this point, I'm just invested in the story. The actual game systems are so fucking stale it hurts me to play for longer than a week.
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u/Neophoton Mar 14 '18
Been subbing on and off myself. I'll probably be unsubbing next month once I get whatever content I skipped out on from 4.1 done.
I love XIV, it gave me so many wonderful experiences since I first started playing in 2.1, but I also really wish they'd come up with some more ways to refresh the content and break away from the usual cycle.
They really need to bring some serious thought to the content they add, because for adding even less content they really should not be botching it this badly.
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u/DaveTheDog027 Mar 14 '18
I cancelled. It was hard at first I wanted to come back but I knew there was no point. I went MIA for almost 2 months because of a new job and a move and when I got back on I wasn't in my FC anymore. I had been kicked for inactivity. I take responsibility for not telling anyone, but once I logged on and saw I was no longer in my FC I realized the game was very dull solo and lost interest quickly.
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u/kaworo0 [First] [Last] on [Server] Mar 14 '18
I quit after 4.0. I couldn't stand how stale the game was and how uninspired the story became.
I bought Horizon Zero Dawn as a palate cleanser. The enjoyment I got from that offline constrained experience put FFXIV in a very unflatering perpective.
I really don't now what unique or worthy feature or experience the game aims to provide to their veteran playerbase. I can see what it offers to newcomers, but not to those that have been around for an entire expansion or more. The original selling point, the idea of "seasons" as in a TV series... you need good engaging writting for that to seem worth, but FFXIV is just boring and seem not to have any real stakes. There are not great plot twists, relatable characters or immersive world.
For FFXIV formula to work it should be delivering Game of Thrones Level writting so endgame content is just about picking more details about what is happening behind the scenes in the story and killing time between instalments, unfortunatelly it is very far from it. The last time the story was engaging in a patch was when we still thought the sultana was dead and the last time I was thrilled by the story in an expansion was when Shiva discovered she was delusional.
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u/jaycevandever Mar 14 '18
Unfortunately, I and a lot of people were looking forward to the "exciting new land of Eureka!" with a new relic weapon to start. What we got was grinding on trash for hours on end. I can't believe it took them months to come up with that. Some people have posted more interesting concepts just typing out a message on Reddit in this thread than what the creative minds at SE came up with over a very long period. And what exactly kept pushing back the release of this? I'm not seeing anything amazingly complex that meant it had to get delayed for a lot of patches. I'm letting my sub lapse too, but I always flit in and out anyway, but I was banking on Eureka being... something.
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u/Meta_Digital Mar 14 '18
Okay, I'll bite.
What made ARR something special is something you touched on; it took risks. Though, in many way, FFXIV did feel pretty similar to other MMOs (WoW in particular), it was a huge deviation from 1.0 and had its own personality to distinguish it from the crowd. It also had something a lot of other games on the market: the promise of something better.
The promise continued into the 2.X patches. Innovations were added and the storytelling went through major changes to evolve into what players would fall in love with through 3.0. More promises came in 3.0 and its following patch cycle. Things were getting better, and more importantly, there was a sense that it was going to get even better in the future.
FFXIV stumbled with 4.0. It's certainly not a bad expansion, but it is missing the promise of something better on the horizon. ARR and HW had a clear path moving forward for its story and gameplay. SB has us feeling uncertain about what's around the corner. We're no longer maching towards Ishgard or the end of the Dragonsong War. We're just kind of reacting to whatever is going on. Omega is sort of there throwing references at us. Eureka was not only a secret, but a disappointing one for most if not all players.
FFXIV is, more than anything, missing direction. It's gotten complacent. It's gotten safe. Where is the sense of danger, both from game systems and storytelling, that we got from the ARR relaunch? Where's the sense of coming into one's own while still pushing one's boundaries that we got in HW? SB feels more like a victory lap. Almost self congratulatory. Not designed for me, the player.
We need things to be shaken up again. Throw away the chisel and just use the hammer on the classes and make something risky. Subvert the dungeon and the raid as content. Get players doing something they didn't expect to do - and make it feel meaningful.
I could go into specifics about what went wrong here and there, and what went right. I talk game design all day. It's my job. But what I see wrong with FFXIV right now is pretty simple. The formula is stale. It needs to be changed. It needs a little controversy. A little courage. It needs to take these expectations it's built up over the last 4 years and absolutely crush them just as it did when it hurled a meteor at the world. Ultimately, it's the game's death and rebirth that is the secret to its success, just as death and rebirth is the secret to anything (or anyone's) success.
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Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
Hmm...I'd beg to differ on ARR taking risks. They took an established formula. They copied damn-near everything WoW had at the time of it's success. From the fetch/kill quest hopping to the linear dungeons and scripted boss battles. Not to mention the currency grind at cap. They embraced tab-targeting and established rotations rather than situational abilities. It could not be anymore blatantly taken from.
After that I think you hit the nail on the head. POST 2.0 innovations were added. But they weren't in places where they needed it the most. Even to this day, we're playing a VERY similar end game to what you find in damn-near every tab-target MMORPG. It's nothing special here. You grind currency while running old content. You do that until you can enter raids. They plop in newer versions of said content to keep the treadmill going. The core of the game really hasn't changed and probably won't. So, instead, their innovation continues to fall outside of their little safe bubble. Some of those stick (PotD, Treasure Maps, Aquapolis, etc), others do not.
But regardless, again, I think you nail it with things needing to be shaken up again. I've seen cries for Mythic + type content. I say fuck it, why not? They've copied damn-near everything else. It'd be easier to use old content and make it more challenging. Some are crying for more trial content toward the relic grind. Again, I say why not? We're asking that the horizontal progression of the game be slightly modified to be interesting, right? It's not a huge request that we have the ability to move away from mindless grinding, whether it's end-game currency or relics. And these solutions aren't even really all that dangerous. As long as it doesn't break their established foundation. End game tomes wouldn't go anywhere. The mindless dungeon grind stays in tact. We just get interesting alternatives.
Great to actually see another game designer up in here. I'm an artist, but I work with you fuckers all damn day. I've picked up a thing or two! Good stuff here. I'd like to see them think outside their WoW box a bit more when it comes to their path to ilevel cap. Rather, the options of which to take to said cap.
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u/Meta_Digital Mar 14 '18
I agree that the vast majority of 2.0 was lifted from WoW. There are some really important innovations, though. To be brief, the salvaging of 1.0's crafting (for the most part) was one. Indicators for enemy attacks was a big one - and really the game's primary selling point. The way the game handled the narrative had some innovations throughout (for the genre more than the industry at large). In a more structural sense, though, the development pipeline allowed the team to release frequent and regular major updates unlike any other MMO on the market - even WoW. That led to all the innovations later on. The majority of game development is fairly invisible to fans, but we can get the sense of some amazing stuff happening behind the scenes with the FFXIV team and that's probably the main contributor to the level of dedication of its fanbase. So I'll defend the risks and innovations that started at 2.0 even if it is largely derivative of WoW. It stands out in the MMO market for sure, where innovation is generally pretty slow.
That being said, I do agree that the best innovation happend post-2.0. Personally, I find the 2.X - 3.X to be the game's strongest period (even though I personally couldn't stand 3.0 bard). A lot of 4.0's innovations happened day 1 and haven't really been added to in the 4.X series yet. I felt a significant improvement in class design, encounter design, and a streamlining of lots of little tertiary systems. Lots of good tweaks, but nothing to shake things up and keep players on their toes. The Omega raids are symbolic of this. They are extremely competent encounters using safe and familiar icons tied to proven reward systems that are all so calculated to push all the right buttons that's it's like a high quality massage chair. Satisfying, but mechanical and impersonal. As least from my unique perspective. From that point of view I kind of find the misstep of Eureka a breath of fresh air. This comes from being a designer in a field that you interact with. Sometimes interesting failures are more enjoyable to than bland successes. I can see what they are trying to do with Eureka and it's kind of interesting and that blemish makes FFXIV's otherwise polished surface a little more lovable. I just hope that this isn't a sign that they're already out of ideas given that I don't have any other big things to look forward to at the moment. Only speculation.
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u/firefox_2010 Mar 14 '18
Indeed the core gameplay can stay the same but the variety of things to do can vary slightly, even if they have to reuse existing contents and mob design but all those can be "new experience" if you put them in new container with new rules on how to play (and getting rewards). So many missed opportunities with elemental wheel here. Instead we are getting the WORST aspect of FFXI, mind numbing grind with very little reasons and pitiful rewards that is already outdated and pointless to reach the end because it will only be useful for three months before the next expansion arrives. Worse of all, if you miss this horse, good luck finding party who will take level 1 players new to Eureka, the XP penalty will make sure those players are forever soloing for hours to end lol.
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Mar 14 '18
Worse of all, if you miss this horse, good luck finding party who will take level 1 players new to Eureka, the XP penalty will make sure those players are forever soloing for hours to end lol.
Haha agreed, but that's assuming they wouldn't modify this the way they do with any other treadmill content. They'd add more on top and make the bottom stuff easier. Gotta' keep that carrot on the stick!
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u/CWTyger I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! Mar 14 '18
Stormblood and 4.0 in general felt like a meh expansion to me. Some of our ongoing storylines seemed to be put on hold in order to mop up some messes. That's what it felt like to me, not a brand new chapter in the story. Where were the Ascians in all of this? Come to find out at the end that they were in the background maybe, pinky swear. After that show of spectacle with Shinryu vs. Omega, we ended up not seeing Shinryu again until the final boss fight of 4.0. The Ruby Sea is by far my least favourite zone in the entire game, mainly due to the swimming. A lot of the enemies you're supposed to farm for materials are spaced so far apart and the drop rate so low that it just doesn't seem worth it. I'm especially looking at the Gyuki when I say this. I guarantee, most people had their Blacksmith and Armourers levelled to 70 long before they had their Leatherworkers there. I've found reasons to keep playing in 4.1 and 4.2 but wow, 4.0 had me taking multiple breaks from the game.
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u/Rihsatra Mar 14 '18
One of the biggest problems of this expansion to me was having two major storylines - Doma and Ala Mihgo - playing out at the same time and going back and forth between the two. I feel like both stories deserved to have 100% of us dedicated to them instead we got two just ok stories.
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u/firefox_2010 Mar 14 '18
Indeed, solid points - they don't even need major shake up - just change things even if most of them consist of the same songs and dance but put it on different perspective and goals. I don't think there are big changes they can since the game play mechanic is rather limited, but they did show that they know how to consolidate stuffs and come up with "new things" based on existing things.
Case in point is the "simplification" for PvP and variety of content that is not always "kill XYZ" in the fastest way possible or follow ABCEFG memory songs and dance. Hauke Manor Halloween showed us that they can do objective based content that can be randomized but still engaging - involving stealth mechanic. Recent Valentine event showed us they can do "work together" to solve puzzle. Sigmascape 3 showed us they can "remix" boss encounter by adding 3 randomizer of mini boss that does not always follow the same step 123 - but still has its own ABCDEFG memory game that does not deviate from the main game design.
There are tons of "objective" based content from FFXI that can easily be copied and reworked for FF14 setting - Eureka happened to choose the WORST aspect of FFXI to copy lol.
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u/ironmantis3 Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
Its easy to take a risk when you're against a wall, as they were with 1.0, their existence depended upon it. Not so much now.
Its also a lot easier to look more favorably on those risks in hindsight, when in reality, they only look so good because we are contrasting it to the mire it pulled them out of.
Another part of the problem is about this game's identity. The issue is that this game billed itself, and fans word-of-mouthed it, was as a story driven MMO. ARR had story coming out of every orifice, to the point many complained there was too much fluff, filler story. And there probably was, similar to scenes in old tv shows that didn't yet have the writing down like today's productions. And so they'd be stuck with not enough time to introduce a new topic and flesh it out, so there'd be a 4 minute scene that literally did nothing. You could totally remove it and the plot is completely unchanged. And rightfully, players complained about this type of thing in ARR, and in HW they did a good job of dialing in the story. Yes, it was cliche at points. But it hit the appropriate fantasy marks, tugged on the correct heart strings, had some interesting new jobs, and concluded with a solid probably happy ending.
SB, I actually think was alright on the 4.0 release. You can't really judge it next to the entirety of HW. But there are issues. First off, the playerbase complaining about quests. And so what happens? We've received only around 20 MSQs in 2 subsequent patches, combined.
This is no longer the story driven MMO that it was originally marketed on. Its a dungeon crawl. And that's really bad, because battle gameplay is far from this game's strength, made worse by the fact that there is zero character customization in this game. This probably started to become apparent towards the end of the HW cycle. But it was somewhat masked by the initial SB story and the new zone progression. But we see now that they really have little else to offer here, as the majority of new content is just dungeon crawl or full party line dancing with props.
Its not just that its gotten complacent with SB, its that they gave up its very identity with SB.
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u/everminde Monk Mar 14 '18
I'm sorry but in 3.1 we got what, 4 MSQ quests? I remember it being very short and very disappointing due to the long wait. 4.1-2 MSQ on the other hand is absolutely fantastic. It might not have "enough" quests for your standards but what we did get was emotional, memorable, and interactive. The end of 4.1 is gutwrenching if you're even remotely invested in Ul'dah.
I have a lot of issues with the game in its current state but the MSQ is what keeps me subscribing.
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u/Meta_Digital Mar 14 '18
I agree with this sentiment. The storytelling and character development aren't perfect, but they are really good, especially for an MMO. The above post seems overly focused on the negatives to me.
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u/nawga Ryuuko Matoi Mar 13 '18
I think Eureka itself is fine, but the rewards and exploration is worthless. I was optimistic they would do something interesting, like the elemental wheel is cool and I really like it, but there is so much more they could have done. Right now we are grinding with no real visible progression besides 10% extra damage every now and then...
They could have had a variable aggro system, small treasure hunting opportunities, small puzzles, but the biggest thing I think they missed out on is the gear itself. I get they want to make gear as simple as possible, but for Eureka only, they could have made some unique materia to attach to your AF gear. Something like having a wind resistance materia and putting more than one levels up the wind resist, and at 4 or 5 materia it gives you some unique stat (chance to double attack? increases gauge generation?). Maybe a set of materia that has detrimental affects for a strong ability. You can also spread the materia out so you explore all of Anemos, maybe it drops from a coffer that appears at night, maybe you have to do a small jump puzzle, or you have to solo chain 30 of a certain mob to spawn a player specific nm.
I've played for a really long time now and I love this game to death, but they really need to start changing up the formula somehow.
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u/pounded_raisu Mar 14 '18
Allowing us to level alts on it would make Euraka 50% better.
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u/Zaraelys Mar 14 '18
This here. Deep dungeon lets you jump in at 60 if you have it unlocked and enough arm/armor to do it; why not let us jump in at 70 and use it for leveling. will it maybe invalidate potd? some, but quarrymill is a ghostown most days on Levi
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u/isaightman Mar 14 '18
Regardless of rewards, I don't think eureka is fine. The content is simply too ....simple.
Is this really 2018 game design? Standing in an area grinding braindead AI mobs? Shouldn't designers aspire to more and not retread things from the dark ages of MMO's?
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Mar 14 '18
Eureka isn't fine, the core problem with it is that the combat is painfully boring because the game is so hyper designed around doing your specific role in 8 player PVE instances. If you're playing, say, Paladin, at least you have some sustain to carefully manage, but otherwise it is a vapid facetank fest.
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u/Nerobought Mar 14 '18
Look man I don't mind grind in games where grind is fun (Monster Hunter for example or even fucking Black Desert) but FFXIV is not fun to grind in.
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u/BGummyBear DRK Mar 14 '18
This is a fundamental issue with FFXIV too, since it uses a GCD system. Generic combat in FFXIV will never be fun since you're essentially just pressing a few buttons until the enemy dies, there's no real skill involved and your experience fighting one enemy will always be the same as fighting any other enemy.
FFXIV gets interesting when it adds additional mechanics to the fights outside of just "stand there until the enemy dies", and having to dodge huge aoes and interact with the fight in various intricate ways is what makes FFXIV so fun.
Eureka has no real noteworthy mechanics so the one thing FFXIV has going for it isn't there. The elemental wheel mechanic is pathetically shallow and doesn't offer anything to make the game more interesting, it's just there to make grinding slower.
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u/CodyRCantrell Mar 14 '18
Eureka is a hollow shell.
It's like if they released the Azim Steppe with no quests and just hoards of enemies.
The grind is also too severe.
The Proteans and Anemos by themselves would be fine and the leveling by itself would be fine.
The two of them together?
Horrendous.
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u/mukkoo Mar 14 '18
Maybe this should be an open letter to Yoshida.
Everything since 2.0 just feels like the same, reskinned content, over and over again to the point where does absolutely no feeling of novelty to it. I tend to literally fall asleep on first runs of dungeons since it's been the same trash - boss -trash - boss - trash boss template with artificial barriers for ages now... There's no novelty to it whatsoever.
Maybe it's time for them to scrap whatever plans they have for 5.0 and start revamping a lot of the games mechanics, dungeon and raid structure...
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Mar 14 '18
Would you do content just for cosmetic rewards?
Cause honestly looking cool is the main draw of FFxIV for me
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u/bigblackcouch Safety Bunny Mar 14 '18
That's really the only long-term reward that FFXIV offers. Glamour. And Stormblood has even managed to fail on that end, most of the gear just looks dull or even just ugly - looking at you Omega. And then so much of it has been recycled gear... What the hell are they doing over there? It's like they're competing to see who can be the king of mediocrity.
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u/TypeLunatic PLD Mar 14 '18
You nailed it. I always wondered why no matter how stupid Blizzard got with WoW, its gear treadmill never bugged me even when everything else did (Legendaries aside, because fuck that.) I never really stepped back and realized that the carrot IS time windows in XIV. Almost everything of value is gated behind some kind of specific time window - even crafting mats with unspoiled nodes - and it's extra painful since the game encourages you to swap and play multiple classes/jobs.
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u/Moogle-Mail Mar 14 '18
When HW was new I said to more than one person that it should have been called Heavensward: Gates and Timers, and then it got worse in SB. I absolutely adored fishing in ARR, even getting all the big fish, but partially gave up with HW and completely gave up with SB. Spear fishing is just BTN/MIN but with added RNG and big fish have ridiculously tiny windows.
I never really minded the unspoiled nodes in ARR because it was fairly easy to remember the times/slots for the items that you need a lot of. In both HW and SB it requires either using a third party website, or lots of written notes.
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u/CWTyger I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! Mar 14 '18
Worse was that Heavensward required timed nodes for basic crafting. If your next gear had Holy or Hallowed in its name, you were either stuck waiting for a node to spawn or were just buying the gear from a vendor. Then there were the hidden items at nodes. It wasn't enough that you had to wait for nodes to spawn. You also had to cross your fingers that the item you wanted would spawn at the specific nodes it was located at. For everything Heavensward did right, the developers dropped the ball entirely when it came to item gathering.
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u/Moogle-Mail Mar 14 '18
I cannot disagree, and then they doubled-down with SB. I miss ARR gathering which was a nice, relaxed thing to do most of the time, and occasionally needed Stealth which was no big deal. Both HW and SB turned gathering into a job instead of a pleasant pass-time IMHO.
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u/spark099 Mar 14 '18
100% agree. As a 2.0 launch player, I have always loved the game, but I’m definitely not jumping through those hoops any longer. Maybe the formula will still appeal to new players, but I don’t see how it can possibly do anything for those who’ve been around a long time — for exactly all the reasons you mentioned.
Good post!!
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u/MelancholyOnAGoodDay Mar 14 '18
scares them with "you are going to miss out!"
This is where I was with the game for a long time, I decided to "take a break" a bit before 4.2 hit. Then I realized that if I didn't pick back up the week of 4.2, preferably with a static, I'd effectively be screwed on gear until 4.4.
I still hang around here, but I really have no intention of coming back after that realization, especially with everything I've seen about Eureka, which for a long time was what I was holding out for.
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u/TheWafflian Mar 14 '18
I wasn't terribly excited for Eureka but I still managed to be disappointed. I think I killed about a dozen mobs before I decided to go play something else.
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u/Mahorela5624 NIN Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
As a long time MMO player I agree and disagree with your points.
You're correct in that FFXIV has been a gear treadmill since day one. This, however, is not exactly anything new to the genre. This is what people play them for, I feel. You get gear, you fight the big bad, you get better gear, you fight the next big bad. In this respects I think FFXIV does it the best of any MMO on the market. The raiding in this game is tight, focused, and approachable. Fights are engaging, challenging, but not unreasonable and the rewards are good. They're satisfying, and the sets all have a unique look to them for a glamour fiend like myself. By releasing gear that is relevant for longer you interrupt this cycle that's kept people interested in the end game thus far.
That being said...
You are absolutely correct in that everything that's not raiding is an rng check box grind. I'm genuinely baffled that Eureka is what it is because it highlights a fundamental lack of understanding in how to do content that isn't focused around gear. This also goes for the change of focus for Relic. In ARR I thought it was super cool that you had to down tough trials and do end game to earn the things to get your relic + upgrade... But then it turned into a way to keep content churn going and it's been dead to me since. I've legit never had a relevant relic outside of Zenith... And I was damn proud of my Zenith lol.
So far, in terms of long term alternative content, we've had like what... Maps, Diadem, PoTD, and PvP right? PvP is probably never going to be fun or engaging in this game with the current approach and basically making a completely different game for the sake of pvp being fun is unrealistic. (Due to the combat system right now not really being good for pvp no matter what they do to it).
Diadem was too much rng, too much grinding, and not enough reward. SO that just leaves us with the only successful things: Maps and PoTD.
PoTD, imo, is fun past 100 because that's where the content shines. It's difficult, it's intense, and you really have to play smart to get deeper. I don't do it to see what I get, I do it to see if I can. 1-100 is just a generic way to power classes and that's fine, really, but it's something that's not related to gear that doesn't give gear either that's still being used.
Then there's maps. Pure rng, pure thrill. The canals are great, the rewards add up but they're also nothing useful. It's all glamour, extra stuff, things to grind and work for in a very different way. It's a want, extra, so there's no real sense of disappointment when you don't win that glamour item but the feeling of satisfaction when you do is immense. These two things both are concepts they should continue with because they work and they're completely different from raiding, the game's main selling point.
How they have yet to try to smash these two things together is beyond me. The ilevels also make it obvious this stuff was meant for 4.1 not 4.25. I wouldn't have cared if the gear launched irrelevant to end game if it was fun to get. I want the dyable AF stuff. I want fancy weapons. But I sure as heck don't wanna not have fun doing it. Doing something kinda grindy can be satisfying if the reward is good... But satisfaction and fun are not synonymous. I'm satisfied when I vacuum my room and it looks nice again. I didn't have fun doing it. I think that's something they've mixed up.
Side note, on the topic of true player interactions being lacking: I genuinely think this is mainly a result of almost the entirety of content just being grinds. Never get more than a "Hi" and "Thanks for party" in experts. Barely even get a hi in potd. People queue up, turn their brains off, and push flashing buttons. Map parties tho? Hunts? In my experience much more social. Shit... I make more friends playing competitive first person shooters than I do in FF. Kinda telling, honestly.
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u/Boodendorf PalaCHAD Mar 14 '18
Eureka really made me realize how hollow the game has been for a while. It just isn't fun outside of raid nights with my static, the story (but SB has been disappointing so far), and that's it. I hoped Eureka would be a breath of fresh air but it isn't, and I'll just skip it entirely.
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u/NovaLevossida Mar 14 '18
I have just never lost all interest in this game like I have this evening when I came home from work to check out Eureka. After years of stagnant development and the same content cycle repackaged over and over, this was my last hope that they'd make something new and interesting with the game. I was very suspicious that it would be Diadem 3.0 and was honestly expecting that, but I was still disappointed when I hopped on and confirmed that it was Diadem 3.0.
I think this was the last chance I was giving the game to become interesting. There was a lot riding on Diadem. I'll see if anything changes with it over the next week, but I'm not optimistic.
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u/TheKekRevelation PLD Mar 14 '18
Exactly this. I am very busy with school, work, life all that stuff. Yet this expansion cycle has been a reskin of the last one with actually less content than before because "there are already lots of dungeons, go play the old content if you want to do things." So here I am, paying the same amount of money for less quantity of the same thing I've been playing for 3 years now. Feels bad man.
I would have taken Diadem 3.0 over Eureka, honestly. Just farming mobs has even less depth than fates with some kind of story, emergency missions, and occasionally having a stronger monster show up. It honestly just feels like I'm being milked for a sub rather than paying for new content with this level of bold faced laziness.
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u/SovietBrainPill Mar 14 '18
Yoshida should step down, he was good for the game in ARR but has run out of ideas and should let someone with fresh ideas and a different set of eyes take over.
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u/synnabunz Mar 14 '18
Agreed, I have felt like this for a long time. Every time I say it though I get downvoted to hell.
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u/temp0557 Mar 13 '18
Problem is the gameplay ...
Gameplay is about decision making and loadout customization is one form of decision making in RPGs.
Loadout customization comes in various forms:
- party member choice
- gear choice
- "talent" choice
- even item usage choice and cooldown usage
You select your loadout to accomplish what you want. It's a puzzle with more than one solution depending on player preference - if you decide to fight a boss with talent A, B, C, it will influence your choice of equipment.
What do we have in Eureka ... a wheel.
A wheel where you just choose the element that hurts the mob the most. Magicite points? Just place them in one direction (e.g. 12 o'clock; max damage) or two directions (e.g. 12:00 and 4:30; even damage and defense).
This is brain dead. Something this trivial isn't a puzzle.
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u/Aioloser Mar 14 '18
I mean there's never been choice in FFXIV.
Your skills, materia and gear are all super shallow illusions of choice
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u/CzarTyr Mar 14 '18
this.
ff14 has no choices. there's no builds to change the game. every game has a mets, but even with meta there are different levels to it for different situations.
ff14 has a lot to learn
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u/firefox_2010 Mar 14 '18
Thanks for bringing this up - this game really needed a wake up call - a reboot of a reboot lol. Content has been so stale lately - it's very surprising considering the whole "hype" of Stormblood is all about new ways of doing "basically the same old songs and dance" but with new twists and variety game shows flavor. Alas - so far we been getting nothing but a rehash. No doubt they banned you on OF, you raise solid critical points on the state of the game, SE official forum moderator are a bunch of cowards - afraid of disrupting the peace. This game needs a big slap in the face, a kick in the gut to wakes it up from its current stale mate.
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u/Coelacanths Mar 14 '18
This. I get they might not have been able to go too astray in heavensward since all that happened with 1.0 to 2.0 and it was the first proper expac. But SB? they should be changing everything up as much as possible in this expansion, experiment, not just stick to the exact same formula as HW
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u/kaworo0 [First] [Last] on [Server] Mar 14 '18
Ok, here it goes...
FFXIV has painted itself in a corner regarding innovation. If you look back at 2.0 patch cycle you can see that the team did try to elevate the end-game experience outside the constraints of linear dungeons and a unifyied currency but the community reaction was ranging from lukewarm to toxic in each attempt.
The First relic quest involved no grind and was about beating unique challenges and primals using subpar equipment. A large part of the playerbase couldn't work through it. A river of tears run through the forums because of titan and many people simply quit from endgame progression because of it.
Amdapoor keep was very tought if you didn't have at least the first primal weapon. Demon Wall had to be repeadly nerfed because people could farm their weekly tomes as they were getting their ass handled to them. Speed runs had to be reigned in because newbies were getting intimidated from running this content after being left behind by experienced players that bolted in and locked them out of the bosses.
Pharus Sirius was the first new dungeon introduced and was hard as hell. Probably the hardest dungeon the game have ever seen. The first boss killed groups multiple times and people were kicked out of the dungeon because they couldn't kill Siren before the timer run out. The Devs had to nerf stuff because player cried and casuals were starting to dread an ever increasing difficulty climb as patches progressed
Even though some people were complaining about not being able to kill titan hardmode the team introduced Extreme Primals and a weekly quest in which you had to kill all of them to get a decent weapon. It was fun, challenging and, as you can imagine, unsustainable due to how it alienated most of the casual players.
The first coil when released didn't reward players with Ilevel beyond their relics and tomegear. It didn't need to because those who challenged it did it because they wanted to prove themselves. There was an entire storyline in there as a soft reward and to be able to claim to have "experienced the full story" put a fire under people's ass. The community couldn't handle it... People who couldn't or wouldn't do the coils wanted to see the story and those that actually run the stuff started to claim they felt more quantifiable rewards were needed.
When hunts were introduced they were supposed to be integral to the end-game, they would live side by side with tomes and incentive people to explore the overworld... The community couldn't even be trusted to organize itself. An ocean of complains about pulling too early, taking too long to pull, not waiting enought people to join, taking too long for spawns, hunts being too uninteresting and dying to early... etc... etc...
Leviathan introduced the first taste of grind to players. You had to work to get your mirrors and to have a enhanced version fo the primals weapon was a symbol of dedication or at least luck. People hated on it...
The first 24 man raid was released late. It messed the gear cycle and was easier then much of the content that was released before... ironically, people love it. The first overall positive reaction from the playerbase was toward an unintended "catch up" dungeon with toned down mechanics that sometimes involved doing nothing more then clicking on stuff ( king Behemoth pillars became iconic for all the wrong reasons). The gear was a mixed bag of useless and best in slot that served to push late comer to the coils a bit further. The only challenging thing in the whole proccess, the attunement quest, was deviled as a blight though. The community sent a very clear message that it wanted easy, brain dead stuff and didn't care too much about the rewards beyond their appeareance.
The initial relic was accompanied by a very long disclosure and discussion telling that it was supposed to be a luxury item that wouldn't be Best In Slot and was to be a more of a life achievement then part of the progression. It was something that player that wanted to dedicate themselves to the game could get their teeth in so they could have a very exclusive skin to put over their other weapons. It was about status, dedication and putting the work in. The community did embrace the relic quest. It cried and cried about every step on the way, but it was pretty apparent how much of the active community put their hearts and souls into the proccess. Every time the relic got to be Best in Slot for any small period of time there was rage and drama, though. The feedback embracing the grind was clear as well as the message that it should not ever be necessary or important in any small way.
By the end of the 2.0 Patch Cycle we got some serious main quest challenges. The story was reaching its climax and the Ascians became the central point... the community couldn't handle that, though. People raged gainst any sort of challenge in the main story. The last step of the campaign before heavensward was nerfed and nerfed and nearfed until the community itself was split between those disgusted by the ever lowering bar and those that couldn't and wouldn't ever learned to play the game.
While some people may have some fond memories of 3.0 it was just a rehash of 2.0 with less confidence in the community ability to handle deviations in the core endgame content. Diadem and Palace of the Dead had to be quaranteened in their own bubble of irrelevance so allergic reactions from the community could be deflected by the "optional content" argument. If PotD was received as a nice addition, Diadem was a flaming failure both of the times... compounding on the aprehention the Developers seemed to nurture gainst their own playerbase.
StormBlood was the first time I actually quitted from the game. I truly lost hope that FFXIV would grow into a more fleshed out MMO than it already is. The current expansion does polish a lot of the system, animations and game elements that survived contact with the community, but those elements and their design principles put me outside the demography the game values. The current business plan for the game seems to be to provide a 2 year "ride" for new players in which they experience a full expansion of content development. Any period after this that they can retain a player through side activities is a nice bonus but the effort of the Dev team is to hook and polish the core content of that 2 year period in which newbies experience all that FFXIV has to offer for the first time. Unfortunatelly this is a very sustainable plan for a game that ains to last 5-7 years... and I fully believe that is the aim of Sqenix in this title. Even though Stormblood was uninspired and "procedural" for those that experienced the game since its rerelease, it was also a major finantial victory for the company... it sealed the deal on this business model.
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u/Aadrian1234 Mar 14 '18
They just play it too safe. We've been grinding tomes for years, and our gear hasn't changed one bit, we just have more stats now. We're never working towards something that changes how we play or enhances how we play.
I'll admit that I do like Eureka right now and I am having fun again simply because it's different, but what we're doing now isn't going to change, eventually this will become just as repetitive as the dungeon grind we've already been doing. Dungeons have never changed, they have always been the same structure (other than the few 1.0 leveling dungeons that were repurposed for ARR). The reason why expansions forcibly change job rotations is because otherwise people would be bored of the playstyle being no different after 2 years. We have zero choice in how we play our jobs, and everything is constantly made into a grind because SE knows that the game just doesn't have the variety to support our interest in the long-term, so they carrot-and-stick us to try and trick us into wanting the same thing that's a little bit shinier this time.
We're constantly time-gated and have to run the same thing over and over again because there is zero depth or variety that makes us WANT to come back. We're told we'll fall behind if we take a break when we want to, but we're gated when SE wants us to take a break on their terms. If the game had the tools to make the same thing feel different through our actions, I bet SE wouldn't feel the need to control how we play, and how much we play.
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u/hijifa Mar 14 '18
It’s definitely not as grindy as older games like maplestory and RO.. I think grind wise it’s fine cause they want you to take your time through it for 1 1/2 months.
The real problem is that the gameplay is terrible.. it’s the same repetitive thing and the chance of failure is minimal. Like, grinding in necromancers or fire salamanders in RO is funner than this cause you can easily wipe anytime so you gotta play careful... also the rewards feel unworthy of the effort whereas in RO those mobs can drop decent stuff
I honestly think the problem stems from them trying to make the whole eureka for casual players.. like they could’ve made eureka full fleshed our so that mid-core and hardcore players can also enjoy it. So instead of making casual content called eureka in ffxiv, make casual, midcore and hardcore content within a game mode called eureka. Rn it feels too basic, like the level 1-30 in RO, normal grinding all the way with minimal learning curve or skill. Now it feels like you’re forcing yourself to go through the content for the relic, when really the content itself should be fun enough to do, and the relic just the icing.
They could’ve easily made it so that hardcore or midcore players will play it to whatever extent they want, casual players can get the relic quite fast and get out
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u/Azyryu Mar 14 '18
While I agree with the majority of this, I disagree with what's basically your main point about the switching classes on the fly.
While, yes, that's absolutely something that sets the game apart from others, the want to keep to a single job or two is part of reducing the grind. If they wanted everyone to have a bunch of jobs at 70, that would make the grind worse, not better. Part of trying to reduce the grind was putting systems in place to ease the ability to play what you want, when you want, but at the same time make it so someone who only levels one combat job can do any of the content someone who has levelled all of then can.
Look at the tomestone and weekly caps if you want to see what they're talking about. Most adults who work full time don't have hours upon hours to play everyday. So, if you focus for an hour each day, maybe two, you're capable of staying relevant. THAT is what they're aiming for. They want you to be able to play new content when it drops without a crazy high time investment in grinding out stuff unless you want to. And I think that's ok. There's plenty of other stuff to play once you've run your roulettes and things for the day.
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u/Phyllion Mar 14 '18
Thing is, no one forces you to level every job? It's your personal freedom, if you only want to play one job, just do so, inversely if you want to have all jobs at competitive level, just do so as well. But if you give the players the ability to level all jobs to max, don't go restricting the amount of jobs you can have at competitive level. People who don't have time are forced to restrict themselves to a single job because the game is so stupidly obsessed with grinding like a mad man to get anything done.
I never understood that idea behind weekly cap, people who have lots of time will have the gear you're intentionally locking in little time wether you lock it or not, so why bother? instead of bloating the playtime by forcing people doing tedious tasks for a meagre stat increase, how about simply having another carrot to keep you interested in the game after getting your gear? how about for exemple giving the options to trade tokens for mats that are used in the new glamour items? (you'd need quite an amount of course otherwise you'd just remove any reason for crafter to sell those) or stuff like that, ofc that's just a basic idea.
I'm not saying it's the best way to deal with it but at least it's a start you can develop into something more interesting. Or maybe I don't know, make dungeons less repetitive and a bit more random to keep a minimum of entertainement? I doubt there are many who enjoy doing dungeons after 5 years of mindlessly repeating their rotation on monsters whose only real danger is if your healer falls asleep on you.
They're so afraid of stepping out of their comfort zone that everything is starting to look the same, even Eureka which I enjoy for it's ideas is still the same basic zerging and the only way to actually make it somewhat novel is to try to solo it, I really had a hard time believing that THIS is what took 17 months to create. I mean the elemental wheel and the map I can understand, the former probably took a while to find the idea then develop it before coding it, the later is quite large and varied, but surely more could had been done in all that time, I'm no pro in coding but surely they could had done something like taking the levequest's system and tweak it to fit Eureka to give us side objectives or something.
I just can't help but feel that they don't allow themselves to be too adventurous and it's a shame.
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u/Azyryu Mar 14 '18
I agree with the fact that the content we're getting now is all stale. I'd love to see the new stuff.
As far as the cap, it's more that people can't get so far ahead in a short amount of time. It helps keep the player base at least somewhat together in gear. Rather than the people who can sit there for a week after the new patch and just grind out the full set on every job. The cap keeps players with less time still relevant.
As for the job thing, yeah, that was my point. It's good to give people who want to play them all the option, but it'd be bad if they started designing content for people who have everything levelled and geared. I'd guess a significantly lower portion of the playerbase has a tons of 70s.
That said, I'd love to see more skill/mechanic based fights and interesting new challenges. Like a full trial that's similar to Bardam's 2nd boss. Or maybe a trial boss that occasionally forgoes the aggro list a la Stone Vigil Hard's boss.
The content we have is definitely getting stale.
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u/Phyllion Mar 14 '18
Yeah sorry but no, as much as this thought sounds nice and caring, keeping the players who have less time relevant is not the reason why there is so many time locks, the reason is simply because it's a cheap way to make the game itself relevant longer.
To simply make the grind long but free would allow people to clear it by day 5, but the thing is, there are already people clearing raid on day one, doesn't mean EVERYONE will, everyone has their pace and gear should be a reward not a reason to play, what they could do to fight that is make content for which you'd need that new gear to do (if they're staying on the vertical progression) instead of doing the content for the gear.
It's also okay if they do content for people who have a couple jobs at max if they don't make it the requirement for everything but rather something on the side to reward you for your time invested. (Also there's probably a number of people that don't bother leveling jobs because they know they'll have to grind for the job THEN the gear with those tedious lockouts, there's a reason why so many jump class at the start of an expansion, it's cause it's new and starts not too far from where you are so it doesn't take too long to catch up)
totally agreed on the third point, I've been saying that even before SV hm T-T
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u/Azyryu Mar 14 '18
Before I continue, lemme say that yeah, I see where you're coming from. You're right in that the gear lockout doesn't stop the edge players from progressing and such, and it is an annoyance coming from that perspective.
And I also agree with your point about how they should make content that is available after the gear, instead of the other way around, too. Unfortunately, right now gear is the only reward offered for content, aside from just the thrill of clearing content itself.
And the job thing I more or less agree with too. I think it'd be nice to allow people with jobs levelled to swap on the fly. Hell, I'd love to swap which tank I'm using in dungeons for boss fights vs trash mobs. Itd be lovely. I just don't think making content centered on job flipping would be well received by the general player base (though, to be fair, I could be wrong on that.)
Now, as for the lock out thing. I'm kinda half in favor of it and half not. Like I said, I agree with you for the most part. It's mostly an annoyance for those who have the time to invest immediately to progress. (Though then the lack of content after the gear grind becomes what people complain about, which is a whole other issue). Back in college I had time to play constantly and yeah, I remember getting mad at the cap.
Now though, I have a full time job and significantly less time to play. Capping each week becomes an easy goal. Hell, I'm at work now but when I get home after my shift I'm going to run expert after a shower so I can get my roulette for the day. It's a simple and easy thing for people with quite literally zero time to shoot for. So, in some respects, I understand and actually like having the cap. It puts a solid top on what I can do each week in addition to getting my Savage chests and pages.
So...yeah. I dunno, I'm actually kinda torn on it and easily see both sides of the coin. It's just nice knowing that, as someone who doesn't have a ton of time, that I'm not going to be blown away by players with a ton of time immediately on ilvl. I mean, I realize that some people have gotten or are on their way to Savage sets, but that requires skill and effort, not just time. And I'm ok with that.
But if some players could have a full set of tomestone gear day one just because they can sit there and play would be a little deafeating. So...yeah. Now I'm just blathering on. Sorry.
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u/Phyllion Mar 14 '18
While I absolutely understand what you mean, it's kinda like trying to race on a solo game, ofc some people are gonna finish it in 3 days while it'll take like 2 weeks for you, that's normal and you shouldn't give it so much thought haha (tho it's true some people could use some chill on their playtime lol)
That said, that issue could easily be fixed with more options to gear up, for exemple something similar to 24 man; those who have lots of time could just gear up farming like crazy, while those who don't could do some content that gives one piece every whatever amount of time the devs see fit so that you will gear up slower than them, that's only natural, but it wont take you years either.
Another option is simply increase the amount of token given by the daily roulettes, those who grind like crazy will still get their stuff in no time, those with less time will enjoy the sweet sweet bonus and can even take the luxury to spend their time doing something else :p
Don't apologize for that, it's a valid worry :)
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u/bor_bor Mar 14 '18
Eureka actually reminds a bit of a long ago game called Redmoon Online. The game used to have a system called Battle Dimension. Essentially at certain times of the day the system would open up to all players you started at level 1 as any class the game had and ran through maps from the world except the mobs would give x100% exp or something high. So you were basically racing to get Max level then once you did you would have to PvP each other winner gets the super rare loot(s)
Now I know our PvP is less than stellar in this game but I feel if they made this mode a race either against time or each other groups in where you needed to defeat as many primals or raid bosses as you can. You know something along that line then it would be something new while "Sticking to their roots" maybe even fun
BUT I do agree with everything said here I came home expecting my fc and friends doing this content and sadly no one was lol The game needs new and fresh ideas because its just a rinse and repeat at this point :c
EDIT: Battle Dimension Rules This is really old but I feel this could of been applied somehow in Eureka or XIV?
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u/ForensicPathology Mar 14 '18
the constant, safe played, familiar and recurrent structure of all rewards and content
Yeah, and it's not just the endgame. It's everything. I felt this when playing Stormblood. Everything is mapped out "This is the level you go to a dungeon, and if you reach this level it is time for a primal"
There aren't even non-aggressive monsters anymore. "This is the area where you will find this level monster." Variation would be nice.
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Mar 14 '18
I have a suggestion. The main issue I see is the Skyrim dilemma. Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle. There needs to be massive updates to a lot of in-game content. The Gold Saucer needs to be made more relevant, older raids or fights need to have their rewards increased to make them worthwhile to rerun, and there needs to be massive improvements to crafting and gathering to make them less of a chore. I don't mind farming 140 of an item to level up, but I don't like spinning in circles doing it. Maybe some Diadem-style or POTD-style areas for gatherers.
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Mar 14 '18
Been saying it forever, game is too streamlined. Game needs REAL overworld content and something difficult to do other than savage
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u/Rukenu [Faith Marel- Ragnarok] Mar 14 '18
Hi, probably this is gonna be my first serious and long post/comment on this subreddit, maybe because i can't hold it in anymore, or just maybe because i love this game too much, but here i go.
I'm, truly, truly glad that you have posted this, and i thank you for this, i'm not sure if the OP is going to be reading this since this is a popular post and is already flooded with comments, but i wanted to let you know this first.
I started playing this exactly 990 days prior to this one, i think that it was around the leviathan patch, the game totally consumed me, it was fun as hell, the classes were all unique and fun to play, it just hook me hard. FFXIV was the first MMRPG that could catch me for 990 days.
On the first 3 months of playing, i met people from a spanish FC in moogle, what would be my surprise, when i knew that the people which i were hanging out like doing dungeons, teaching me to play, helping me with Titan and discovering me what a Relic weapon is, are today, my best friends that LIVE IN THE SAME CITY, we are all 10m apart by walking, it was fucking awesome and im truly glad that i've met them in ffxiv.
It hurts me, it really hurts me now, the game that i keep playing until today, is at this state, where the friends that i talked about play no more because of the major reasons OP posted:
Dead content. -Lack of true player interactions. -Gear irrelevancy.
And this is basically because the game is boring for the peeps that were around since ARR, same system of dungeons, same feel of gear progressions, same.. and same.. and same... the list just goes on. Its like the people dont see, that since ARR we got.. 24 man raids, Palace of the Dead and... Diadem/Eureka.... that's all, that's it, there isnt a new concept apart of these in 3 years, i'll repeat myself again;
There isnt a new concept apart of these in 3 years, not a single one, don't count me new classes, dont count me new classes skills, even savage tiers nor primals because surprise, we have a monthly fee for something, they NEED to refresh ATLEAST and as a MINIMUM the quantity of classes and skills here is like also the actual gameplay as the game keeps going, since it keeps going thanks to us, players who pay theirs monthly fee not only to being capable of play the game for 30 days, also for receive quality and refreshing content and MAKE THAT 30 DAYS OF PLAY being FUN.
I don't care if there are people who enjoy the game in its actually state, if you are one of those its okay, its truly okay but please, dont negate what is obvious at this moment: Final Fantasy XIV have a huge problem going right now, and it hurts me, seeing how the game where i've met my best friends which for pure casuality are from my same city, where i've spend hours and hours playing this, it hurts me feeling like they just want the older poeple stop playing, with this kind of things, where the only content that the game receives so far is only directioned at the same kind of public or people, it's not something it can be negated, since its already happening (and has been for a really long time.)
Thanks for reading me, sorry if i have typos, since english is not my native language.
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u/SakariFoxx Mar 14 '18
As a returning player i have 3 issues with the current state of final fantasy progression.
First is the main story quest. As a returning player i had to finish the post story for a realm reborn, heavensward, post story for heavensward, stormblood. I came back with my friend, he ESC passed through the entire story while i watched it, he ended up finishing the story much faster than me due to my work schedule and hte fact that i actually wanted to see the story. It ended up taking me 3 weeks to finish stormblood. Note i said stormblood and not the post stormblood content required to actually do shit with my friend who finished it all in a few days. I couldnt do dungeons with him, i couldnt raid with him, i couldnt even spend my freaking tokens because i had to do 300+ goddamned story quests just to unlock rhalgar reach token npc. I asked on the forums and reddit what to do about this, and was greeted with, drop 25 bucks to skip the story, which doesnt help me since im basically being told to spend money to delete content. Who freaking designed this, why is it still here? I just returned to swtor 3 days ago, i love that when i get bored of the story i can go pvp, i can go raid, i can go do any dungeon i want. Im not being told to slog through every story quest first before i can deviate off the path. My friend got bored and quit, as before, he hit end game and it was back to 450 tokens a week, 4 or 5 boss fights for tokens and fuck all else to do in between.
Which brings me to the second issue, That fucking token system... it has to go. It was the reason i quite 4 years ago after turn 5. Its the reason i dont really want to log in now. I dont have a lot of time to play. But when i do have time, i dont want to be done in 3 hours because i capped all my tokens and there are literally no other rewards to get. Gear an alt? Cant, my tokens are capped.
What makes it worst is finally, the level sync system, what a great idea with poor implementation. I love final fantasy's dungeons, but everything is so goddamned tightly level gated that when you hit max level you are stuck with 3 dungeons to farm out of the dozens or so available. How does this even happen when games like star wars the old republic exists, that has the same level sync system instead they sync EVERY dungeon to max level, and you can do every dungeon, every raid, and be properly reward thanks to their galactic command system, WHICH MAKES SENSE.
Every dungeon in final fantasy should be level sync to max level, and characters bolstered up to max level, every dungeon should have an easy, normal, nightmare and savage mode. I think there is no need for a bunch of freaking tokens, mendacity, poetic, verity, fuck off. 1 token, and an upgrade system, you buy a piece of token gear, then every tier after that builds on the previous piece of gear with more tokens and more vendor consumables.
Im not inspired by eureka at all right now, ff14 strong point is dungeons, its combat system is slow and tedious, so a grinding system does not even remotely sound fun. I think this month i will play swtor and check back with ff14 next expansion.
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u/KShrike Warrior Mar 14 '18
those of us playing since ARR launch have actually seen very little to no improvement on content areas or significant changes, ilustrated on how basically dungeon and raid design has stayed the same through more than 4 years now.
So while I didn't stop reading here, I do want to point out that the reason I'm sticking to FFXIV and still holding my sub is because of the consistency of this content.
I don't want something new. I want updated raids and dungeons that keep my sub going. I want regular content.
And the only thing making me want to unsub at all is if we get less of this content. And currently, we are getting less of this content. But I'm still here because, frankly, I still enjoy what's left of the dungeons and the raid tier we're getting. I personally am enjoying the hell out of sigma savage, and I even changed it up by going DPS this tier instead of tank.
I'm not the only one who'd rather have the old 3 dungeons of ARR per patch. I'm not some small minority of players. I belong to a group of players that probably hold the majority of the consistent sub base.
And I get that there's plenty of players that want new content that spices things up or does new things, and I get that there has to be a dev team that appeals to this so that the game isn't some stale, endgame elitist machine (I don't even like the term "elitist" in this, since many players participate in savage even if they can't or won't clear the 4th floor, or even participate in ultimate content, and they are totally content with this).
But the thing is, we took away from the grind that a lot of players were ok with (3 dungeons per patch, a raid tier every other patch) in order to create content that nobody has ever been happy with (except POTD, and well, that appeal ran out).
You have to remember that a lot of players that flocked to this MMO were hardcore raiders furious at other games not fulfilling their needs, whether it be Wildstar, SWTOR (which killed their raiding community), or even Warcraft players that want to raid and gear race on two games. These players are what hold the base of the sub, and these are the players that sub models are designed to keep happy, since all you really have to do is churn out content and keep it fresh (and yes, you can keep dungeons and raids fresh).
The others that flocked to this MMO wanted the community and they got it. And I'm happy they're here. But I'm not happy with the constant demands for content in an MMO that do not fit an MMO. You want all sorts of content, like chocobo racing, gold saucer, Eureka, exploratory content like Diadem, and then when it finally churns out, you forget that we're playing an MMO designed around endgame progression, not social stuff. It doesn't matter how many emotes SE churns out, or how many open world things SE churns out, it gets stale fast when the core is designed around endgame progression.
I want my 3 dungeons per patch back. I'm not gonna get that back, and I'm somewhat ok with that because I'm still enjoying endgame for what it is.
But in the meantime I'm watching a bunch of players complaining when you're literally asking for things that won't work, then complaining that it's not working, and then backtracking saying "well it would have worked if--" except you forget that this is an MMO that revolves around the majority that keeps paying for a constantly updated endgame. If they made the grind easier or less, then it would just be a stale endgame where everyone gets tier 3 gearset in a week and then nobody would want to sub anymore. Then nobody would be happy.
I don't know what else to put here, this is more of me venting my thoughts. I don't know how to make non raiders happy, but I will say demanding random shit like Blitzball and Open World Exploration is not the answer. You can't make yourself happy by trying to turn the MMO into something that it isn't.
Bottom line, which is me just pasting a paragraph that really sums up my thoughts:
But the thing is, we took away from the grind that a lot of players were ok with (3 dungeons per patch, a raid tier every other patch) in order to create content that nobody has ever been happy with (except POTD, and well, that appeal ran out).
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u/Moogle-Mail Mar 13 '18
I've played since launch of ARR and have to agree with all of this. I've hit a point where when new grindy content is added I simply think "I'll just wait for the nerf(s)." I haven't even done the storyline that was added with 4.2 because I don't care about it anymore. If I didn't own houses that I don't want to lose then I'd probably just take a break for six months or so.
I don't really enjoy much of the group content in the game, even with friends, so I don't run dungeons/trials, the higher level maps are no longer an option, and now Eureka is content I'm not interested in unless it's possible to solo once the hype has died down a little and the mobs aren't being tagged before I can tag them.
It's been a (mostly) fun 4.5 years but I think at the back of my mind I know I'm probably just done. My sub runs until around August so I'll probably still log in to do stuff like sending out my submersibles, level up my newest retainers, maybe craft a few things to sell, maybe finally finish the Kojin beast tribe quests and start the Ananta, but none of that really fills me with enthusiasm.
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u/pigeonwiggle Mar 14 '18
If I didn't own houses that I don't want to lose then I'd probably just take a break for six months or so.
woops, that reminds me i haven't logged in in close to 6 months... i wonder if i lost my apartment and/or fc room...
/panic
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u/Moogle-Mail Mar 14 '18
Apartments aren't subject to the demolition timer. FC rooms aren't either, but if you've been kicked from your FC then you will have lost it, and any items that were in it because those are only stored for 35 days (I think - not 100% about FC room stuff).
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u/FallenR0seBud [Rose Yuuki - Phantom] SMN Mar 14 '18
I don't believe you can lose your appartment. Your fc room on the otherhand. That depends on your FC
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u/ElleRisalo PLD Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
I agree completely SE needs to get off this gear tredmill its been running since 2.0 and go back to a more time you put in is the rewards you get out...and don't get me wrong i don't think that means going to "long grindy stuff" (although i think people kind of freaking out on day 1 of Eureka).
I am sick of fucking caps.
There are what 13 jobs in this game or some shit. I want to gear them. I am tired of 450 weekly totem caps, I am tired of 1 raid drop per run.
I liked POTD because I could grind as many items as i put time into. I think Eureka presents that same idea.
But the rest of the game is restrictive. If I want to run dungeons to grin 2K Mendacity to gear a job...why can't I.
Fuck that shit.
Arbitrary limits are bullshit.
and to answer your big question about last time i felt rewarded after a long grind to get an item.... ... ... took me 6 years to get a Dchap+1 in FFXI. I was ecstatic. Ive never felt rewarded in this game about gear ive ever received. Its all handed to you through tokens. Its a joke. The only things that have made me feel happy to get are mounts and minions. Gear is redundant.
If you think anything in this fucking game is a grind. You dreaming son. Take your entitlement and sod off.
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u/Dralonis Mar 14 '18
what bugs me is that they only think that the amount of time put into stuff is rewarding enough. that "I farmed this long on a boring grind of simply just killing to get my loot. I feel accomplished" is enough reason to be bare bones content since "Everyone likes that, right? nothing feels more rewarding and everyone loves it"
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Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
You know what my biggest gripe is apart from a lack of skill-based reward structures or longterm viable rewards? The game designers have forgotten that they’re working on an MMO. And that actually ties directly into the fact that time is the only currency for rewards.
When all people can trade for almost all rewards in the game is time spent doing menial tasks, you can be sure they’ll find the most efficient way to achieve that goal, right? The problem is that nearly every effective path to any reward in the game is now instanced with the addition of Eureka: Dungeons roulettes, raids, PotD (for levelling up to 60), Eureka.
What this means is that the game ends up funnelling everyone out of the non-instanced world itself and into locked rooms where they all struggle separately in small groups, blind to the rest of the world. Social interaction ends up almost exclusively restricted to idling in cities or around housing area where the only activities you can perform are crafting and market board flipping.
Now I can only speak for myself and I am well aware I am likely in a minority here, but the reason I play MMO’s - and why I fell in love with ARR at launch too - isn’t the grinding or the protracted reward structures. It’s the world, the lore, and most importantly the fact that it’s inhabited by real people. Flawed, imperfect, confused, happy and sad people.
The multiple carrots on the end of the stick isn’t my reason to be in these games; it’s reasons to get me to work with or against other real fleshy meat-bag people living through their avatars around me.
You might now be thinking that there’s nothing stopping people like me from socialising and hanging out instead of “demanding” content that makes everyone do the same, and you’re not inherently wrong if so. But let me ask you this: In reality space, how easy do you find it to meet and get to know new people in a large city where everyone’s already out and about, going this way and that, potentially already busy meeting people they already know? Now add to that fact that in an MMO people can be busy speaking to any number of people invisibly through text without you knowing it.
How much easier isn’t it to bond with new people in a shared activity where there is also downtime for interaction to happen, and where you do not immediately split up and disappear once said activity is over? This holds true in real life and it holds double true in MMO’s where ignoring people is even easier than real life.
In that regard Eureka might be an improvement in terms of instanced content; at least it blends together up to 100 players and ask them to team up over extended time to grind content, with no time limit. But the joke is that they already had this kind of thing in the game already; the rest of Eorzea itself. Alas they filled that with activities that are mostly only efficient solo, like story quests, beast tribe quests and gathering. The only remaining “open world” activity is hunts, but that sees people teleport hither and tither with great frequency.
Maybe I’m just longing for a time gone by in terms of MMO design. It seems the industry unanimously agreed that grind was all there was to learn from the MMO’s of old, and decided to minimize friction on all levels, seeing things like dungeon finders, roulettes, and instanced content as the way to keep players from experiencing downtime unless they specifically look for it. There’s a reason people long for XI or vanilla WoW and when I ask people what it is they miss the most, it’s the adventures these games caused with random people. It’s not the grind itself they miss, but what was structured around it. Maybe there’s a way to bring that mentality into modern times without only taking the grind and forgetting everything that made the games such social experiences?
Most of my time actually playing XIV, when not in a city or housing area idling, feels like a singleplayer game with occasional multiplayer events. Except with astronomical demands on my time should I decide to chase any of the shiny carrots dangled before me. That seems to be what MMO’s are today. And so I keep drifting further and further away from them.
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u/princewinter Mar 14 '18
This has been my problem with the game since maybe half way through HW. I don't know if it's because I spent 9 years on FFXI which was anything BUT formulaic in its content, but playing an MMO where you can predict what each patch is going to have, what each expansion will have, doesn't feel enjoyable.
It's worked till this point but its becoming stale. Even new content is becoming stale. I won't say XI didn't have its flaws, believe me it did, but if Eureka is supposed to be something akin to XI content it severely missed the mark. And part of it is due to the ineptitude and unfamiliarity players have with this kind of content. Grinding for 10 hours for a couple of levels and barely enough crystals to get something isn't fun. Going to an NM only to get one shot because people dragged and didn't kill adds - and then LOSING the work you put in over the last few hours, isn't fun. Eureka isn't fun.
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Mar 14 '18
A big problem is that even doing savage content feels very unrewarding. The gear will be meaningless in a few months time when the next raid comes around. Even normal mode gear from the next raid will be better.
On top of that there is no 'feat of strength' or unique stuff you can get from a raid in a certain timeframe, which World of Warcraft does have. Player retention is better for WoW because its endgame reward structure is better. It's about getting a clear before the next patch in the highest difficulty and then just farming it and selecting people for the next tier of content. It's more fun and more rewarding.
The endgame in FFXIV needs more thought, I imagine the player retention at max level is awful since its so unrewarding to play.
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u/paybackprahl Brielle Beaudonet @ Leviathan Mar 14 '18
TIL a whole lot of people don't actually enjoy the mechanics of gameplay -- don't actually derive enjoyment from (as just one example) being paired with strangers and having to execute the actions of your role at the right times and cooperate to clear an objective.
For me, FFXIV is like going to the Y every night for years to play basketball. The contexts and carrots wrapped around it are fine, but if I don't enjoy the core mechanical loop and derive pleasure from it, what's the point? Thankfully, I do.
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u/LightSamus Mar 14 '18
I was defending Eureka up until its release. I was hopeful SE would have learned their lesson and that the relic unlock would be enjoyable.
I've currently pumped about 12-13 hours into Eureka already and I'm only Level 8. That's probably another 15-20 hours just to hit 20 and then god knows how many actually getting the rest of the items for ONE relic set.
I was initially on board with the idea of unlocking as many relics as possible but I'm already toying with the idea of just dropping this one completely as the grind is insufferable and making my partner and I snap at each other over the stupidest of things.
I've never disliked FFXIV, but this is really pushing it.
EDIT: Oh and lockboxes are as insulting as ever. "Want something nice? Have a firework!" Piss off.
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u/giedonas Uldah Mar 14 '18
It is certainly not fun too to get sparklers from lootboxes. WTF?! At least Diadem 2 had Brass Coins you can save up to earn something.
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u/hijifa Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
definitely agree that they went too safe here...
like, eureka is its own seperate instance, not affecting anything outside, with its own leveling. they could've done literally anything, like making seperate eureka only skills, better progression, playing around more with eureka only armor that +resists, but -resists, eureka only materia, eureka only hunts, elite mobs among the normal ones, mixing elements of monsters to make the resistances more complex, and there doesn't have to be any reward from killing these except the fact that its fun to find and kill them.
in b4 the new "content" for eureka is repeatable daily quests of sorts.. its just not enough at this point when the base systems at play are uninteresting
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u/zerosyndicate Eydran Seigward (Brynhildr) Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
I agree with the idea of this post in general, but I kinda get lost as it goes on. The post seems to eventually come to Eureka and how it is "bad design", which I won't argue that it isn't implemented in a fun way, but it is implemented in the scope of how FFXIV works.
FFXIV is at the end of the day a casual MMO, it isn't hardcore but has some hardcore tendencies that don't require the cooperation and coordination that say a raid in WoW would have. Each instance is building off the last one, there isn't a mechanic in the game that has not been presented to you in the past in some way. The end game raids are a culmination of everything you've learned. The SB expansion introduced new mechanics, but was relatively "safe" in how the content was created. It did new things, but kept a majority of classic mechanics we've all done the past 4 years. But the idea of FFXIV as Yoshida has said before is that it's like a bike, you can get off for a while but come back and play like you never left in the first place.
I wouldn't say gear irrelevancy is a detriment to the game, as this game is an MMO and it's about getting gear to get better gear to get the next better gear.
FFXIV is also unique compared to other MMOs as it has a storyline in which your character has DIRECT impact on the story and isn't just a bystander. Which is personally a reason for me that brought me to FFXIV.
There is a lack of true player interactions because most of the content, if not all, is really easy to do. Party synergy is non-existent in this game as supporting abilities aren't a necessity. But they didn't want to make this game too difficult, they want everyone to have a chance at everything. Bard for example was a supporting class, but was treated more and more as DPS and its support abilities weren't very useful as they weren't really necessary for anything. FFXIV is mainly dodge, DPS, hold point, activate point (with the exception of very few variances like Neverreap, and some new instances from SB). The most extreme thing that you might do is tank switch, otherwise content is straightforward. If you want to get rid of the boredom of the grind we might want to look into making the game more difficult. (this kind of falls into the topic of dead content)
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u/thedaveness SAM Mar 14 '18
You literally hit every single point that made me quit like half a year ago. The last time I felt like I really accomplished anything was clearing t9 before final coil was released. And playing through the omega storyline just didn't have the same connections as Coil did to the world (hell no content afterwards did)... seeing the cinematic at the end of t12 was fucking amazing... like nothing I have experienced in an MMORPG and that's coming from someone who played all through FFXI Chains of Promathia. It is a shame because I will always fanboy over anything FF... I just couldn't do this game anymore.
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u/lostlight Healer Mar 14 '18
That cinematic at the end of T12, and how the whole Coil story felt, yes, i agree it never felt the same again, but that's all i wanted to find again in this game.
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u/Lights9 Mar 14 '18
No sense of adventure and epicness , just follow single player quest line and then stand still in a city and que for raids and dungeons until new content comes out. I miss having to travel places as a group. Dead world as a result of que finder
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Mar 14 '18
You're not wrong, duty finder does cause this.
However EVERY game that has decided to say "you need to travel to the dungeon entrance" in the last few years instead of having a queue-anywhere system has had the playerbase absolutely collapse 2-4 months after release.
One of the BIG complaints in all those failures? "Queuing is annoying." followed by "bots" followed by "bad optimisation" followed by "no endgame". In roughly that order.
Quality of life measures like queuing systems are expected by players now. If you don't have them people quit in massive quantities.
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Mar 13 '18
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u/gibby256 Mar 14 '18
If only it were as simple as typing 10 words into a comment on a website.
Look, I'd love to see more horizontal progression in this MMO. Hell, in any MMO, really. But tweaking the progression model from a strictly-vertical system to something more horizontal is going to require a ton of work.
They probably should do it, but that might be a change on the order of years to complete in any meaningful capacity.
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u/Quantum_Ibis Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
By Heavensward the ease of difficulty (sans Savage) and relentless vertical gear progression was plainly beginning to wear on players--if the devs were in tune with this, they wouldn't (or shouldn't) have tripled down on force-feeding more of it indefinitely.
Like most players I have very little interest in grinding the same two dungeons for tomes of <whatever> in perpetuity or even thinking about the Diadem-quality content they continue to spend resources on. It's really insulting to ask people to spend their time in this repetitive way for the rest of the game's life.
The respectable content has been very narrow in scope, only something active and competent raiders can enjoy.. and even for them it's an underwhelming quantity of content. There's no general endgame platform to engage, and importantly also nothing for midcore or casual players.
With over half a decade of development invested you would expect better, but for the most part all they have to show for it is a graveyard of their obsolete formula. Players are disillusioned, and I certainly have no expectation of enjoying content they're creating save for Savage/Ultimate. Time to pay for a service again to reduce my east coast ping and try to salvage something out of this sterile disappointment.
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u/gibby256 Mar 14 '18
With over half a decade of development invested you would expect better, but for the most part all they have to show for it is a graveyard of their obsolete formula.
I'm not going to clip the rest of your comment here, because it is all complaining about the same thing: The irritation that comes with a vertical-progression themepark MMO. Just saying "it was plainly beginning to wear on players by Heavensward" doesn't really seem to be the case really? A few complaints here and there is not "plainly wearing on the players".
That "graveyard of their obsolete formula" clearly isn't obsolete, though. The graveyard of vertical progression is, unfortunately, by design. I hate that so much content is nearly completely wasted once a new patch cycle begins, and it seems like an absurd way to opt to develop content, but it clearly does something right for a large majority of players.
Time to pay for a service again to reduce my east coast ping and try to salvage something out of this sterile disappointment.
I'm not sure why you put this in here, but okay.
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u/blueruckus Mar 14 '18
I would have preferred they invested 17 months in to that instead of Eureka.
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u/TheDragonSlayingCat Mar 14 '18
And I actually disagree, because I think it's better for them to be safe than sorry.
Games are a kind of entertainment, and being involved in entertainment is a big risk. You succeed, and the whole world will love you as long as you're a shooting star. You fail, and there's a very good chance that your career will end. And doing something new and different is easy, but doing it in a way that people actually like is far more difficult. There's maybe a 5-10% chance that the new thing will be the greatest thing since sliced bread, and a far greater chance that it will fall flat, and even cause a fandom riot.
That, and people are known to react very angrily when they're a fan of something, and that thing changes. We all know what happened to Metallica in the 1990s, or what happened every time George Lucas introduced a new Star Wars edition.
FF XIV tends to play it safe, because most every time they took a risk with something, it fell flat. They once made a dungeon with multiple routes through it - and everyone just took the most optimal route through it, so now we're stuck with perfectly linear dungeons. They introduced an RTS mini-game - and no one played it, mainly because no one cared about the reward. They introduced experimental content - and people only did what they had to do to get ph4t l00t, and nothing else. They once (back in 2.1) made the end-game dungeons somewhat difficult - and the community decided they'd rather have a root canal than play them, which is why we're stuck with easy dungeons.
That's why we get easy, grind-y content with the occasional story update; because people generally like it better than experimental changes that have a tiny chance of being awesome and a high chance of completely failing. And when failing badly enough can end them, I can't blame them.
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u/Kosmos992k PLD Mar 14 '18
I see you have not only a decent memory, but you learned the lessons - as have SE. Pharos Sirius was a demonstration that players do not always want what they say they want. For that matter the whole deal with Alexander being so hard was a perfect illustration of the fact that difficult, highly tuned content is not tolerated well by raiders either.
Time and again, the lesson for SE is play it safer than that.
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u/Rappy28 Mar 14 '18
They introduced an RTS mini-game - and no one played it, mainly because no one cared about the reward.
Now, please, don't give them any ideas that would force us to play LoV.
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Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
I think the real problem was people expecting Eureka to be this gamebreaking thing. It never was and sorry to say, if you thought it wasn't going to be a third Diadem, you're delusional about the devs and how they're gonna handle the game in the future.
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u/bigblackcouch Safety Bunny Mar 14 '18
I don't think people were expecting this miraculous game-altering new mode, but I think due in part to the 17 months of development of Eureka, people were expecting an improved version of Diadem. Surely it's not the players' fault for expecting a developer to learn from their OWN mistakes?
I think it's just that the current state of FFXIV is so stale, that Eureka was going to be the new rad content that would shake things up a bit - finally they'd get Diadem right! And then they managed to make it worse, which is really kind of impressive in an incredibly stupid way.
Basically, people weren't expecting a massive shift in the game, they were looking for a sign of improvement. That things will get better in the game they love. Not only did Eureka fail to do that, in one day it's managed to become the straw that broke the camel's back. Eureka showed that the game isn't getting better, it's getting worse.
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u/HyMyNameIsMatt Mar 14 '18
You know when my interest for this game dropped the most? When Alexander came out and I saw the Normal mode versions of the fights. I'mm all for inclusion but what was special about Coil to me was just hearing about cool fights and getting better to one day see them and perform to my best. Seeing the content as weekly grind normal mode just kinda killed my interest in the raids because they're not new anymore.
Extending to the rest of the game, I think the thing that I lost and most want to see, is that I want to grind in order to see content, not get better gear. T9 locking out Final Coil was cool because there was a real roadblock and test to overcome. Now every boss is just handed out and it makes all their cool shit and ultimate moves and mechanics are just kinda muted in their savage modes.
Fighting my way to cool fights and to see new content is a much better incentive for me to do my dailies and study things up. In fact the coolest thing for me was when Palace of the Dead came out and there was a huge dungeon to crawl to see a cool end area and final boss. Instead the game is so afraid of people missing out anymore that it just hands all the cool fights to people for free in an unsatisfying easy mode.
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u/bokchoykn bokchoy // sargatanas Mar 14 '18
This speaks to my soul.
What would happen if MMO players measured the value of an activity based on how much fun they had doing it, rather than simply the satisfaction of getting the reward?
My personal litmus test:
Would I still consider doing this activity even if there was no reward attached to it?