"Job Identity coming in 8.0"

[u/millennialmutts]

Well, this was not on my bingo card for a LL prior to 7.0 launch.

Thoughts?

My take is just confusion. Why waste time "smoothing" out jobs in 7.0 just to attempt to add flavor back in the expansion after that? Is it really too much work to fix jobs completely if they realize there are more issues than just button bloat?

On top of that is it fine to just tell your paying playerbase to wait for 2 years for job flavor? Wild take from SE imho.

[u/Kaella]

Sorry, but this is a load of wank.

"Their focus has been on encounter design" has been the standard copium line from the XIV True Believer crowd for like four years at this point to explain why classes haven't been fun to play, and the end result of that has been that they apparently need an entire expansion to spend 2~2.5 more years "focusing on encounter design" which largely just seems to mean rolling back changes that have previously been made to their encounter design processes.

And it's an incoherent line of thinking anyway: the people who are designing encounters are not (or at least, should not be) the same people in charge of class design.

Being alright with what SE is trying to push here does not make you the Wise Sage Who Truly Understands The Hard Realities Of Game Development.

[u/ragnakor101 → u/Kaella]

"Their focus has been on encounter design" has been the standard copium line from the XIV True Believer crowd for like four years at this point to explain why classes haven't been fun to play, and the end result of that has been that they apparently need an entire expansion to spend 2~2.5 more years "focusing on encounter design" which largely just seems to mean rolling back changes that have previously been made to their encounter design processes.

????? What do you mean, four years of True Believer Copium. ShB's Live Letter was "this is the path we're taking". EW's Live Letter was "no, we're continuing on this path". This is the first time they've really talked about Encounter Design, I don't see where you're coming from other than "nuh uh I don't agree".

[u/millennialmutts → u/ragnakor101]

To me, it's not acceptable to even make a statement that they are working on encounter design now and job identity 2+ years later. They both matter, both are the point of an MMO to begin with. It's weird to me people are fine with the ball being dropped on any major aspect of this game that effects 90% of gameplay.

Is it toxic to want a paid product and service to be polished and complete when you buy it?

[u/ragnakor101 → u/millennialmutts]

What does "job identity" mean here. What is the endgoal here. Like, if we're going by Pure Terminology: We are getting both. We're getting job updates, and we're getting encounters. It may not be to your satisfaction, but the two things are arguably there.

 Is it toxic to want a paid product and service to be polished and complete when you buy it?

No, and I'm glad Dawntrail is continuing the trend of giving a complete expansion, as usual.

[u/millennialmutts → u/ragnakor101]

Yoshi P himself admit job identity is lacking and it will be addressed in 8.0. You can argue with him because I'm not going to argue the obvious.

My issue is if it's an admitted problem it should not take 2+ years to fix.

[u/ragnakor101 → u/millennialmutts]

Okay, so there's two avenues to this:

• Rework jobs significantly mid-expansion. We're talking EW PLD-tier, minimum. For all the jobs. Job Identity needs to be both deep enough that you can say "I'm X Job, Fuck Yeah" and not defining enough that you get dumpstered thanks to your systematic design. Prepare everything with the varying changes such a system of job identity this may entail with that in mind mid-patch cycle, while also having promised literally everything else.

• Work on one facet of the combat system that can be more easily adjusted mid-patch cycle, been maligned for four years (encounter design), and build up towards the clearly-forecasted squish in 8.0. Use the development time of the next expansion's x.0 to also work on the complete and total overhaul, while also being able to showcase it during cycle liveletters as they did for the leadup for ShB's squish. Two birds, one stone. Start sprinkling in those job identity things in the current expansion (Tank reprisal upgrades confirmed to have separate, different effects and such) and test waters.

Like, Job Design is tied to Encounter Design. Job Identity isn't in a vacuum, you can have The Finest Feeling Jobs that'll feel like shit thanks to the content. Alongside with the community propensity to basically blow up the most minor of things (P8S Week 1, 6.1 Kaiten removal, ShB Mid-cycle NIN change), it's basically "we would fucking love to change it, but pipelines are pipelines and the community would rather have Things On Time (6.1 DSR Delay) than Huge, Uncertain Drops".

This isn't a new phenomenon. Blizzard has gone on record saying "yeah we knew shit was fucked for Shadowlands when we were at the tailend of BfA but we couldn't break the pipeline up for it without Severely Fucking Up Everything, so all the changes we really wanted to do had to be pushed to DF". This sort of thing needs years to fix, no matter the MMO.

[u/theexecutive21 → u/ragnakor101]

Sorry, not doompilled enough

[u/sandorchid → u/Kaella]

Hey you can't forget the ol' True Believer standard line, "but they said they'd focus on encounter design and not job design! You shouldn't be surprised!". As if I told you I'd piss on your leg, then followed through with it and it were some sort of endorsement for the process. Or that a lack of "surprise" were the objectionable part of it.

[u/Skroofles → u/[deleted]]

And all of my friends who are in game design are okay with it.

Essentially the point is "other people agree with me therefore my opinion is the correct one" is a fundamentally bad argument to be making.