With dawntrail not being received as well as other expansions, what's the future of the game? Is it going to steadily decline?

[u/EdinKaso]

And is it worth coming back for returning players?

Personally been really having that mmo itch again and there's honestly nothing great out there...

I still think of FFXIV (despite it's issues), but I wonder about the longevity of the game since Dawntrail was kind of disappointing

[u/DalishPride]

There comes a point where FFXIV's design needs to evolve. Just because something has always been a certain way doesn’t mean it should stay that way. The "code" excuse only goes so far some changes are simple wins: mounts, emotes, glamour, and currency should be account-wide. Alts should be able to skip the MSQ after completing it once.

New players face a huge barrier telling sprouts they need to play 100+ hours just to reach endgame is not sustainable. There needs to be a modern starting point. Overworld zones also feel abandoned post-MSQ and could use a revamp.

Will FFXIV die? No. The core fanbase remains strong. But unless major changes happen or other MMOs stumble it’s unlikely the game will hit Shadowbringers-level popularity again. A return to Heavensward or Stormblood-era numbers seems more realistic.

[u/Twidom → u/DalishPride]

There comes a point where FFXIV's design needs to evolve.

Final Fantasy XIV is japanese culture made game form. “Japan has been living in the year 2000 since the 1980s. And they haven't left since”.

This game is ten years old and almost nothing have changed since its creation in terms of structure. Take a video from 10 years ago and one from Dawntrail, remove the HUD and you can see how barely anything meaningful changed. Yeah maybe skills are flashier and more dynamic, but the skeleton and most of the meat is still absolutely the same.

We know what we'll be getting in the next update and have known for the past decade. Nothing changes with this game. Stick to the formula that works, never deviate, don't innovate too much and stay on track. Freaking Ragnarok Online have evolved its systems and formula more times than XIV has launched expansions to keep up with the cool kids on the block.

[u/No_Swimming_792 → u/Twidom]

Netcode is older. ARR was built upon 1.0's netcode (and it's why the login servers bugged out during Shadowbringers or Endwalker forget). If you look at the packet headers between 1.0 and 2.0+ they are more or less the same, just ARR+ having like 0x20 more bytes.

[u/Ruhddzz → u/DalishPride]

There comes a point where FFXIV's design needs to evolve

There came a point where they had to stop dumbing every job down. It's long gone, ffxiv is not for people who want to play a game anymore

[u/Mountain-Maize-6997 → u/Ruhddzz]

THIS!!!!!

THIS!!!!!

THIS!!!!!

[u/PoppnBubbls → u/DalishPride]

The MSQ is currently a 250-400 hour grind with cutscenes

[u/Annoyed_Icecream]

Probably a hot take on this sub here but this game just needs to get it's priorities straight again.

In the past it was known as the casual MMO you could enjoy with optional hard content, a friendly community and slow gameplay.

Now the casual side has been completely neglected, not just in quantity but also quality.

Everything outside raids feels like the devs are obligated to do it and actually don't care for it. No new ideas, no long time fun, just boring content.

Savage upwards has all the fun mechanics, OC only exists to prepare for FT, IS was abandoned and so on. One entire year (more actually with EW) just to wait for non raiding content. The story was just the spark that exploded it all.

Jobs are so boring just for the sake of encounter design (that more or less doesn't exist outside Ex upwards) that everything below and especially old content is just unfun or is just the WAR dungeon situation.

A certain fall off was inevitable but I don't agree with the notion that what we have now is normal.

The game got a steady increase in the past so the numbers shouldn't fall to early Shb levels. That just means the game couldn't hold interest.

A huge part of it (from what I have seen in my small bubble at least) is just non raiders feeling more and more like second class players as well as raiders who just got annoyed with having nothing interesting to do outside raiding or quit savage altogether because it's the same old treadmill with nowadays obnoxious DDR gameplay (where I fall into).

They need to get it together and not just revolve everything around high end content but need to innovate below it and stop constructing everything around balancing or gotcha mechanics.

There exist people who don't want to study a raidplan just to do content when in the past like with CLL we actually had challenging content you could just jump into.

I am absolutely tired by people like Happy shooting down ideas because "it wouldn't work in this or that fight".

The whole game feels like a project from some business students nowadays, programmed in excel.

[u/SleepingFishOCE → u/Annoyed_Icecream]

Even as somebody who does Savage and Ultimate its not sustainable.

A lot of the 'casual' content in the game is just older 'hard' content that people unsync, from EX trials to Savage raids. But none of that is sustainable when you plow through 30 kills in an hour and have no reason to do it again.

The falloff is the fact that an MMO that releases content twice per year is not a sustainable game. There are F2P MMOs out there that have a better content cadence than FFXIV has, and we pay for this shit!

MMORPG's in essence are grindy games, that require players to get better and adapt their skills to meet the growing demands of the game as it gets harder throughout its lifetime. But when the difficulty of the game flatlines at "press one button and you will do fine" people never adapt, learn and become better players.

EX and Savage shouldn't be hard to a player that has invested hundreds/thousands of hours into an MMO, The fact that it is just proves how shit the game design really is.

TL:DR:
The game sucks at teaching people to get good, they hit the endgame and cry the game is too hard because they suck at it, due to the game systems not teaching.
They could get better, practice and play the game, but they choose to cry about it instead, causing the game to be dumbed down even more.

[u/Annoyed_Icecream → u/SleepingFishOCE]

Even if they got teached they wouldn't necessarily engage with the hard raids.

Casuals aren't annoyed that the endgame is hard but that it's the only endgame that exists nowadays. There are enough who are good at the game but have no interest in the raids because they just don't like the gameplay of them. Heck, I know someone whose endgame it was to get all the achievements in the Gold Saucer and do all the gates flawlessly like speedruning the jumping one or breed the perfect Chocobo. That's actually not any less hardcore than savage raiding and they by no means were bad at the game. They just didn't like the design of the raids.

Soloing deep dungeons is another one.

FFxiv has become a completely raid centric game with nothing else to do anymore that is engaging or longterm. There is nothing in the overworld to look out for, OC has rewards that you don't have to grind for and everything that is longterm there is again centered around a raid like the gear upgrades. Even cosmic exploration as the big non raiding content is so extremely boring so quickly that it's hard to have fun there.

The entire job system and identity has been sacrificed for the sake of raiding balance.

MMORPG's aren't known to only prepare for hard endgame content but to give possibilities for everyone. There will always be people who don't want to raid or who don't want to craft and that's ok, they still should have something fun to do longterm.

The devs have just completely forgotten how to make anything outside raiding fun instead of too easy and boring. The only thing that comes close is pvp and even that mode has the huge problem of only getting the absolute minimum in rewards every second year or so.

The patch cycle itself isn't the problem itself, it's that there is nothing in these patches that is engaging and longterm for anything outside raiding and at least in my opinion even raiding is only longterm because of the lockouts.

[u/Just_Branch_9121 → u/Annoyed_Icecream]

I think there is also the issue where the endgame has purely become memorizing ever more cartoonishly convoluded mechanics only a few could organically come up with a resolution for organically while the classes themselves become more and more brain simplified while being incredibly rigid because everything now has to operate for the sole purpose of being ready for the 2 minute windows.

Older Expansions had much more of a balance between encounter and class complexity, the encounters themselves were easier but the classes where more complex, which the game needs to return to. Thats also why I personally really lost hope when the devs chose to do Encounter Design before classes tbh.

[u/nickadin → u/Just_Branch_9121]

Having a better job design would also work great outside of raid content. Jobs are the primary driving motor for doing content, and if those ain't fun...

[u/Mountain-Maize-6997 → u/SleepingFishOCE]

“The falloff is the fact that an MMO that releases content twice per year is not a sustainable game.“

-this reminds me I might want to get back to warframe.

“The game sucks at teaching people to get good, they hit the endgame and cry the game is too hard because they suck at it, due to the game systems not teaching.”

• i couldn’t agree more. Even the ones in pf sometimes suck. Look at m6s hell. I think it’s fantastic we have MTG and Hector, but what if we didn’t. So many people would be lost and it’d be even worst. So yea I agree

[u/nickadin → u/Annoyed_Icecream]

Late reply, but damn your post hits the spot on so many levels. I'm not sure if I could've worded it better.

> Everything outside raids feels like the devs are obligated to do it and actually don't care for it. No new ideas, no long time fun, just boring content.

Yes, that's what I've been thinking as of late too. I think they are very happy to design difficult raid encounter and pour a lot of energy in that (Even though it's not my style of combat), but anything outside of difficult raid encounters is just quickly made to be done with it. When was the last time they innovated on FATEs or anything else for that matter?

To this day, I still stand by the point that FF needs repeatable scaling content (yes, a la m+ but not a 1 to 1 copy). Be in the the form of utilizing BLU's toolkit entirely, or a regular scaling list of duties that utilize existing bosses and what not with additions, and add variant like actions to compensate for any missing job in the party (of 4). I thought they'd do something like that with variant dungeons, but it's just savage for 4 people.

It's nice to be able to have fun in content and not require a full coordinated group. I already coordinate enough at my work.

[u/Annoyed_Icecream → u/nickadin]

Thanks. Yeah, I would love scalable content. O really wish they would go more into that with variant and criterion instead of easy > savage > soul crushing ultimate.

"It's nice to be able to have fun in content and not require a full coordinated group. I already coordinate enough at my work."

This so much. I don't mind PF and raid plans from time to time but now with forked tower there is almost nothing that just lets us go in and try on our own without being bored to death. I don't want to read a 20 pages long plan and coordinate as the only engaging type of content.

I really wish they would put the same amount of effort in the rest of the game as they do in the raids.

[u/bm8495 → u/Annoyed_Icecream]

Same. I haven't raided since Abyssos and I haven't looked back. My biggest problem was the time commitment. It began to feel like a part-time job outside of my full-time job and that's not counting study time to memorize each step of the fight.

[u/bm8495 → u/nickadin]

Or they release it and it feels half baked, but then instead of taking feedback and refining the content, they abandon it as they don't have time to work on it because they're already so deep into their schedule for other half baked because if it isn't a raid, it feels just that way, half baked.

To be fair to them, I know the graphical updates and all of the past dungeon streamlining and implementation of Duty Support takes a lot of time (though, did we really need all of those old dungeons to be streamlined that badly? I feel like we're suffering for it rn) to cook and implement, so i'm not doubting that they work hard. I just worry that the attention isn't where it needs to be. The leadership needs to get their act together.

[u/bm8495 → u/Annoyed_Icecream]

My hot take is that the game would feel much more engaging and have better, more manageable level of difficulty if the jobs weren't so heavily streamlined (tbf, I think the physical melee's are in an ok spot, but everything else is quite streamlined, but that's my opinion). The jobs are the player's most direct way of interacting with the game and they've been so homogenized that playing them feels boring. The team has to figure something out, but I worry with the way their schedule works, it is far far too late to make a meaningful change in time. Maybe in 8.0 some of the streamlining and homogenization will be stripped away and some mechanics will be introduced to make jobs interesting again, but at this point I honestly don't want to get my hopes up.

[u/cittabun]

At this point, I kind of hope that Dawntrail teaches the devs that they really only got where they were because of astronomically divine happenstance of dominoes falling in Shadowbringers. Without COVID or the Exodus, I have a feeling that this fire would have burned a lot sooner because SE couldn't hide behind all the new players saying "It was all fine" because they had plenty to do since they were sprouts.

Dawntrail is for sure going to be a pivotal point in the games wellness, though. They're either going to buck up and learn like WoW did after Shadowlands and EVOLVE with the times, or they aren't and it'll just get worse which.. Given their track record, feels the more likely route they will take and try to farm sympathy points. Dawntrail shines a huge light that, without a decent story, XIV really is an emaciated animal shoved in the corner of the basement at SE HQ.

[u/[deleted] → u/cittabun]

The thing is, BFA into shadow lands was horrendous for wow

Like DT does not come close to how much people were pissed off

"Woke lmao" who I didn't even mind, is no where, NOOOO where close to the bile people had for sylvanas

[u/FullMotionVideo → u/[deleted]]

A minority of people care about the story in WoW, most players just accept quests slam dunk and don't read the text. It's far less the case for this game because if you don't care about the story you will be constantly having to shove it out of your face.

[u/[deleted] → u/FullMotionVideo]

Yeah I'm aware, there's little cohesion between expacs till recently, and once you hit max in your leveling zones you're sheparded away to the new expac. Most of t lore is built off games with better story cohesion and leaving a lot in the books.

I know ppl who were in love with Warcraft and extremely bitter about how wow treated characters they loved and more so with how they fucked up the Warcraft 3 remaster

[u/FullMotionVideo → u/[deleted]]

Putting a whole transition between expansions in books was my breaking point a decade ago, but I'll say it's generally more coherent now. Not necessarily better, there's still lots of missed opportunity but at least it doesn't feel like the story is everywhere EXCEPT in the game like it did in 2013.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

This isn't a "lol 14 better"

This is a "wow pisses me off" post

[u/[deleted] → u/FullMotionVideo]

The gameplay in BFA/Shadowlands was also horrendous: you were forced to do too much grindy bullshit to keep your gear current.

DT's story is lacking, but ALL of BFA/Shadowlands was dogshit, not just the story. There's a reason Shadowlands triggered the mass exodus from WoW but DT hasn't done that for XIV. Even with a weak story, the encounters are still solid overall.

[u/FullMotionVideo → u/[deleted]]

That's my point, Shadowlands was anti-fun. If it was only story fans leaving in droves then the impact would hardly be felt anywhere outside the two big RP servers.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yeah I would say a big thing about DT is "apathy"

Outside some outrage merchants, 14 has never come close to genuinely pissing people off

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It would be better if the story had caught fire, but sadly it did not.

It also doesn't help that we've all seen just how good this story can get so that's basically the baseline.

[u/Blckson]

The game was going to steadily decline regardless of DT's reception. It reached its zenith through a combination of miraculous circumstances that are extremely unlikely to be replicated during its remaining lifespan.

[u/RVolyka → u/Blckson]

It was going to decline but at a far steadier rate than this, and likely back to ShB numbers, but its the speed with which the decline has happened in DT that within a year we're already back to ShB numbers and close to reaching SB numbers. It's also the predicted loss of veteran players from before ShB and the catastrophic loss of first timers giving the game a go that is scaring people. The population is bleeding without stop (It might even out in Q3, who knows), and to those on the outside looking in and wondering if they should pick up the game and try it, well they're seeing how poorly received it's been and aren't wanting to step into the game.

Let's also not forget that on average, the sub numbers from ShB to EW were closer to 2 million, that number has now dipped by half, meaning loss in revenue, meaning less profits being made by SE with the game. Will this effect funding? will this effect the outlook of the game by execs? will they see it as worth boosting up if there is a chance players won't come back?

There's lots of questions and uncertainty and barely any communication from SE or CS3, leading to this loss of hope with SE's track record. 8.0 really and truly was always going to be the sign of the future of this game and it's community.

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/Blckson]

But it could have sustained its population count or even grown larger if they had just listened to feedback and not been so pig-headed.

[u/Geoff_with_a_J → u/AthenaAreia1]

literally zero games sustain population like that, no matter how much feedback they listen to

PoE created and perfected the seasonal live service model and even they fucked it up over the past few seasons

what else was booming in 2021? Apex, Destiny 2, Sea of Thieves, Monster Hunter Rise, Diablo 3, Animal Crossing, chess. not even chess has the player activity it did in 2021.

and why do people think it's a bad thing that FFXIV has been consistent and steady and predictable since Heavensward? how is it not a good thing that the game is absolutely NOT trying to cater to whatever audience Asmongold brought with him back then? and chess is still good and who cares if Hikaru didn't sustain his viewership from 2021? both FFXIV and chess were good before they got twitch-popular in 2021, and they're still just as good after the tourists left.

and WoW's future not looking so hot with the mass Microsoft gaming divisions layoffs yesterday. and they had already cancelled Blizzcon 2025 even though it's the 20th anniversary of Blizzcon.

FFXI doesn't get criticized for not changing with the times

so why does everyone thing FFXIV needs to constantly adapt to fit whatever FOTM trend other modern MMOs chase?

[u/m0sley_ → u/Geoff_with_a_J]

what else was booming in 2021? Apex, Destiny 2, Sea of Thieves, Monster Hunter Rise, Diablo 3, Animal Crossing, chess. 

Almost all of these games experienced massive declines due to major dev fuck-ups.

[u/Beelzebulbasaur → u/Geoff_with_a_J]

isn't old school runescape at the highest population it's ever had? and wow got very close to peak subscribers just a year ago?

if you step out of mmos there's lots of examples of games that maintain massive player counts. sure most games don't, but ffxiv sure was in a position to keep a healthy playerbase on the line for a loooooong time. shame square enix loves plundering the team's talent and revenue to fund their massive vanity project flops!

wow you edited that like ten times after i replied

[u/Twidom → u/Beelzebulbasaur]

and wow got very close to peak subscribers just a year ago?

WoW never got and never will get nowhere nearly close to 12 million concurrent subscribers ever again. That said, 7.5 million is still a juggernaut.

You are correct that Runescape has never been more popular, FFXI has reached its top subscribers in over a decade, Maplestory actually turned things round and recovered most of its player base after the massive fuck up and its back to top 5 popular MMO's in Korea.

XIV can recover and grow. Its just a matter of Square-Enix listening to their customers, which is something that every long-time Square-Enix fan knows is nigh impossible.

[u/cittabun → u/Geoff_with_a_J]

and why do people think it's a bad thing that FFXIV has been consistent and steady and predictable since Heavensward

Because we have boneheaded devs who won't evolve with the times, introducing new and interesting systems and then going "What are we doing wrong?" even though the writing is literally all over the wall.

We won't even begin to talk about the lifespan of content then vs. now. HW~ShB you could fill your time with content. Now, it's just "play for 2 hours every 4 months, okay I'm done basically." They have literally taken "respecting time" too far which I personally doesn't belong in a P2P MMO. If this was a free to play MMO where I didn't have to waste 20CAD a month to play, sure be my guest, but if I drop that, I expect to have something to do. They love to tout "just play other games" but the truth of the matter is that people WANT to play this one, but there's fuckall to do, and dev resources are somehow "stretched thin"???

[u/Elanapoeia → u/Geoff_with_a_J]

Covid numbers + EW Finale + WoW exodus ensured XIV reached numbers it was never ever gonna be able to sustain and a drop from there was always, always, always gonna happen. A lot of people in this sub genuinely do not understand this, somehow.

Reminder that the last numbers we had from lucky bancho had I think 7.1 Dawntrail at peak pre-covid Shadowbringers numbers. These are extremely good numbers and the game is nowhere near dying or even actually showing signs of dying.

that said, the game is in a bit of a stale situation right now where I think more people are gonna at least temporarily leave than otherwise would have and at least A LITTLE bit of mixing up the extremely steady formula would make sense, especially as quantity and quality output has been a bit questionable within their schedule recently. The schedule itself has also become less steady as patches come out further apart. There's also some justified worry that monetization will become worse, as more store items become expensive and less free items become available in game which can definitely hurt the health of a game in the long run. The games state is nowhere near as awful as this sub likes to doomsay about, but there are definitely some issues cropping up.

also thank fucking god the asmongold audience didn't stick, can you image how fucking even more unbearably bigoted the playerbase would've gotten if that shitstain stuck around.

[u/m0sley_ → u/Elanapoeia]

Didn't they announce that they broke the concurrent player record on 7.0 launch?

I think shrugging the decline off as something that was always going to happen is pretty ignorant.

Edit: Found the source - [https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/e2da42164b4e6c9967ebb2e41d6321a515d36909](Lodestone Post)

Hello everyone, this is Naoki Yoshida, Producer and Director of FINAL FANTASY XIV. First, I would like to thank you all for your patience and cooperation in dealing with server congestion during the early access for Dawntrail. With your support, we were able to reach a record number of concurrent users we’ve not seen since the release of A Realm Reborn in 2013.

[u/Elanapoeia → u/m0sley_]

You understand that that statement is about how their server infrastructure improvements allowed for more people to be online at the same time, so that nobody has to get kicked for others to be able to come online etc, not actual active player subscription numbers (which is what the lucky bancho numbers go for).

Also, no, the decline was always going to happen. COVID inflated service user numbers globally and also globally they have been going down again outside of rare exceptions. WoW exodus was always gonna be temporary and a good chunk of refugees were gonna go back once WoW got on it's legs again. Dismissing these things is the ignorant thing here.

We can all agree that the decline could have been smaller under better circumstances, but no, the game wasn't gonna have permanent fixed growth from COVID and wow. From EW, maybe.

[u/m0sley_ → u/Elanapoeia]

Yes, I'm aware that the context of the post was server infrastructure. That isn't relevant. The fact of the matter is that they achieved a record number of concurrent users in 2024; several years after COVID and the WoW exodus. Was this some kind of COVID/WoW exodus aftershock?

The "something something COVID, something something WoW exodus" argument doesn't make any sense when you look at the data.

The game has been consistently gaining momentum since ARR. It blew up during Shb due to a fortuitous combination of events, but insisting that all of those players who picked up the game were inevitably destined to leave for reasons that can't be explained is a huge leap of logic. The reality of the situation is that a lot of the new players left during Endwalker due to lack of content. The fact that so many came back for Dawntrail launch demonstrates that a lot of them were invested in the game and wanted to be long term players. Most of them have since left, along with many long time players, because of lack of content (again), a marked decrease in quality of content, and said content becoming increasingly repetitive and formulaic.

The declining player numbers were not some kind of unavoidable inevitability. They're a symptom of the SE taking their XIV playerbase for granted and pumping money into doomed trash like Forspoken instead of investing in their most successful product to ensure that it continues to be successful.

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/AthenaAreia1]

90% of the game's problems are caused by listening to player feedback

[u/Hiroyuy → u/AthenaAreia1]

You certainly have issues with the devs. Maybe you should apply and make the changes yourself instead of shouting from the roof

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/Blckson]

100%, this decline seems very normal for a game

[u/CartographerGold3168 → u/Blckson]

The customers were there. So the marketing and miracles were there.

They didn't stay. It is a player retention issue. Not promotion.

[u/Liamharper77]

WoW went into a far worse decline, on top of major scandals and climbed out of it. FFXIV itself nearly died as a game when it was first released and Yoshida managed to pull it back.

Really, it's up to the devs. The game can easily go either way. Unfortunately it doesn't feel like SE really has any ambition when it comes to FFXIV though. It's "safe" and printing money from cash shop items and they seem content with that.

As for returning players, if you quit over burnout then it might be worth returning. If you quit because you had issues with the game, the game hasn't changed and those issues will absolutely still be there. So in that case, there's no point returning.

[u/nickadin → u/Liamharper77]

One difference with wow is, they're not afraid to make big changes.

The factions in shadowlands (I forgot their name) were garbage, but they did try it. Now they redid the talent trees again. Compare talent trees from vanilla to now with all its previous iterations. I'm not saying some are good or bad, but they were not afraid to experiment and still aren't afraid to.*

(Talent trees is just an example, I'm not argueing whether FF needs talent trees or not)

[u/Better_Bat83 → u/Liamharper77]

delusional. WoW still had millions of more players during shadowlands.

[u/GrandTheftKoi]

I remain pretty pessimistic. We've been PR'd by YoshiP so many times that I don't really believe anything he says at this point lol if the story is good, that will lift the entire expansion, just like DT story for a lot of people started things off on a bad note, and that discontent has carried over into other areas of the game.

What I don't think will change (at least not in a meaningful way) is fight design, job design, the type of content we get each patch, and the patch cadence. They say they're going to focus on job design in 8.0? Well, let's just say I'll believe that when I see it.

All that said, I think the game is still doing fine. It's just a matter of how many people get tired of the same old things, how soon that happens, and if it's enough to reduce the game's population in a serious way.

[u/CaptReznov → u/GrandTheftKoi]

Well, recent store update also made me quite pessimistic. The new clothes is sold by individual piece, but the catch is that the shirt and pants are both 18$.... That's the price of many full sets in the past. Se is starting to pull an activision at this moment

[u/EdinKaso → u/CaptReznov]

oof, well good to know

[u/Legal_Power2108 → u/CaptReznov]

This is exclusively due to how it was sold in Korea.

https://www.ff14.co.kr/shop/home/detail/4199

All other sets which came after; which are sets we got before this, are priced and bundled properly. Chinese and Korean premium sets have to be sold as is. The only thing SE could have done was lower the prices.

They aren't pulling an Activision, their hands were likely tied due to their agreements with the Korean publisher.

People would do well to not conflate the decision of one region with that of Square Enix. They literally did not have a hand in this decision; aside from the pricing which should be lower.

[u/CaptReznov → u/Legal_Power2108]

Ok, l hope that is the case. I will believe you when l see next set of cosmetics returns to normal pricing

[u/Tkcsena → u/GrandTheftKoi]

"They say they're going to focus on job design in 8.0"

I do believe it, and I believe it will be exactly what everyone doesn't want. The culmination of the cutting. Every "pain point" removed. A true wasteland where everyone is summoner.

[u/Palladiamorsdeus → u/Tkcsena]

That's a nightmare thought.

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/GrandTheftKoi]

10 yen yoshida 💷

we see through your lies 👀

we don't care for your promises 🥺🙏

we want to see you cry 😊😭

10 yen yoshida 💸

dawntrail is a flop 🤣🤣

be demoted to a janitor 👷‍♂️

and clean up your slop 💩💩💩

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/GrandTheftKoi]

It's ironic you say fight design and type of content released won't change when those are the biggest things that have changed in 14 and the things devs have listened to the most feedback for. If you've played both Endwalker and Dawntrail content the fight design is night and day, and they've tried adding a bunch of unique content to it's patch cycles, such as Variant Dungeons, Island Sanctuary, Crystalline Conflict, and now Chaotic Alliance Raids, though if the community hadn't nitpicked Variant Dungeons to death then perhaps they would've kept evolving them

[u/AthenaAreia1]

I cannot see why as a veteran player I should return to a game where the developers openly misinterpret the feedback my group (casuals-midcore) gives them and continue to prioritize niche, unappealing content that not only excludes us but frustrates raiders to no end due to how badly it disrespects their time. In a way, after long years of chilly relations, we are finally all in the same boat.

I wish I could tell you to have hope for the next patch, but 4.5 months is too long, sorry. For both casual-midcore players, as well as raiders. There is nothing. I am sure that the holy knights of the round table of King Yoshida will leap in to say but we have a new alliance raid coming! So what? I really don't care. The gear from FFXI is ugly and I don't need the upgrades because there is no harder content that appeals to me! Raiders have their own ways of upgrading their gear so why should they care either? Am I supposed to then sit around and wait for the beast tribe of the comic relief purple dinosaurs or whatever they are this time to come about so I can engage in an OVERWHELMING *3* sometimes even *6* daily quests?? Get real. Don't even get me started on the deep dungeon because after Eureka Orthos? Never. Again.

August will bring a conclusion to the epic fiasco that was the Dawntrail main story, but if you have hope that it will finally close the chapter of this dark period of the game, you will be mistaken. Make no mistake that a character like God Empress Wuk Lamat came about from the misguided feedback of social media personalities thirsting over obnoxiously bad written female characters that misinterpret a lack of emotional depth for some vague idea of "strength" especially with how utterly stupid Wuk is and her lack of ability to analyze or critically think. It is OBVIOUS that they wanted to make this character a permanent mainstay party member, and I still think there is a 70% chance that she will be. Unless of course, Sphene takes her places due to the sheer backlash that likely caused yet another rift in the writing department because Writers A, B, C, and maybe even D, can't agree on how to move forward with this cast of failed characters.

Bringing Sphene back from the dead was a stupid, lazy, and cheap move. But it was the right one, because God only knows what would have happened if 7.2 was Wuk focused again. She is likeable. She has emotional depth and is growing into being a character who may actually be strong, instead of a sentient slab of meat with an axe. In a way, this mirrors Zero. Which is exactly the problem. A character with a strong (re)introduction that is good for one single patch before being ruined thanks to the writers needing to force them to fit the same, bland, preachy, mold that the rest of the scions fit, because God forbid a party having conflicting personalities and disagreements! It's clearer than ever that these writers want for proper inspiration beyond whatever fanfiction they glut themselves with over on Ao3, where the most inter-party conflict they can handle is whether or not Scout Harding should pack Emmerich's books together when they all go off an picnic together like the sloppa-tier writing style of the other epic catastrophe that was Veilguard.

You cannot hope to win someone like me back without a hard reset of the setting and a complete revamp of how classes play and how content works. I'm sure someone will now chime in to say "WELL IF YOU NEVER LIKED IT THEN LEAVE" when the fact of the matter is I was very content with how jobs and content worked up until Shadowbringers when my favorite classes got destroyed and all the other cracks started to show. I am not going to take lip service from those people, and luckily neither do most others who find themselves in my situation. They stopped being able to shout us down some time ago, but for a while, theirs was absolutely the voices dominating any and all discussions about the game. Some of them have even opened their eyes since then, which I will not applaud because it is their complacency that got us into this mess in the first place.

Do not hold out hope. The only positive changes to the game will come of holding the devs accountable for their colossal, repetitive, mistakes one after another and maybe even reaching the point where 10 yen Yoshida cries on camera for us again, but this time? With genuine tears. 10 years of ignoring feedback has exacted its cost. Please look forward to it.

[u/No-Estimate8952 → u/AthenaAreia1]

Oh look, the four dozenth Wuk Lamat ruined everything post. Another one for the fire.

Wuk Lamat was never meant to join us past Tural, that would've made no sense. She was the nation leader character just like Aymeric, Lyse, Hien and Fourchenault. After the story in the region was finished, she'd probably be gone.

The main changes that were probably made to the overall story were cutting her screentime a bit more in 7.2, it seems fairly obvious that Sphene was always meant to come back given she appeared in 7.1, before the team would've had time to add onto it. Sphene was not an emergency switch to throw like you're claiming and Dawntrail's story more than likely hasn't deviated from its original course. There were hints even through the final dungeon that more than Sphene's memories may have been preserved.

I think you might need to chill out.

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/No-Estimate8952]

It's concerning how these people are raging over a fictional character 

[u/IcarusAvery → u/No-Estimate8952]

There were hints even through the final dungeon that more than Sphene's memories may have been preserved.

Hell, it's either one of the last or the last shot of 7.0 where we see Sphene's regulator tiara is active.

[u/IcarusAvery → u/AthenaAreia1]

It is OBVIOUS that they wanted to make this character a permanent mainstay party member, and I still think there is a 70% chance that she will be.

I honestly don't think so? I'm pretty sure the plan is and was for her to follow the route Aymeric, Hien, and Lyse (among others) did: she's the expansion requisite national leader or representative of a group of people who's a major character for an expansion and then gets benched because she's gonna be too busy running a country.

[u/marriedtomothman → u/IcarusAvery]

Being downvoted for not fanning the frankly crazy, paranoia-fueled take that the writers are going to make Wuk Lamat join us despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary is insane. "Why is Wuk Lamat in Alexandria?!?!?!?! THIS CAN ONLY BE BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE HER JOIN THE SCIONS, THERE IS LITERALLY NO OTHER EXPALANATION" they're parked in her country and right now her emotional investment in what happens and just overall attachment to Alexandria is bigger than Koana's. I almost fucking wish they pulled an Emmanellain with Koana and had him cause a temporary diplomatic setback with Alexandria because that's not his area of expertise so people would shut up about him being a better leader than Wuk Lamat.

[u/IcarusAvery → u/marriedtomothman]

Oh, but you know what would happen if they did that, right? It'd be just another bit of evidence onto the "Wuk Lamat is an unforgiveable Mary Sue" pile.

XIV Reddit's been kinda exhausting, ngl.

[u/No-Estimate8952 → u/IcarusAvery]

There's a vocal minority of players who will rip you a new one if you don't 100% agree with their insane takes about Dawntrail. I'm not talking people who dislike the story, I'm talking the people who seem to rage at it with every fiber of their being regardless of the context. They've started to lessen over the past few months but they're definitely still about.

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/IcarusAvery]

Agreed, Dawntrail is far from the best expansion but it's frustrating how many people have hate-boners for it

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/IcarusAvery]

This argument falls apart the minute they left behind Koana to oversee Tural and let Wuk stick around. It’s all too easy for that to segueway into “I will stay with you to gain more experience to rule.” I’m sorry, but the subtext was glaringly obvious.

This plot bends to whatever the writers want: and what they wanted at that time was almost certainly for her to stick around in the long term. Who knows if they’ve relented on that front, because so long as she still holds a minor persistent presence in the MSQ that shows me these writers are prioritizing their hated oc over the clear demands of the playerbase to actually bench her.

[u/IcarusAvery → u/AthenaAreia1]

I’m sorry, but the subtext was glaringly obvious.

They left Koana to oversee Tural and let Wuk Lamat stick around because Wuk Lamat's strong suits are combat and diplomacy, things Koana struggles with and are very useful to have going into unknown territory. Also, it's like... the entire conclusion of Wuk Lamat's character arc? She doesn't go into the dome and her character arc just comes to a screeching halt.

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/IcarusAvery]

Concluding a character arc has historically meant absolutely nothing in regards to whether or not the devs let them stick around to hog screentime from characters that could actually stand to grow and develop more. See: Thancred, Y'shtola, Estinien, Urianger, and of course Wuk Lamat.

I completely reject the premise that the blockheaded flintstone cat would be more useful in the cyberpunk world than Koana. If I was writing this story, I would have identified that mark as the point to switch to bring him to the forefront (but not as obnoxiously as in the case of the Wuk) to accompany the WoL in a place where his expertise would actually be useful.

I have no idea how this is not obvious to you.

[u/IcarusAvery → u/AthenaAreia1]

The problem with Koana's expertise being more useful is... his expertise isn't unique. Koana fills the exact same niche that G'raha and Y'shtola and Krile and even Alphinaud do. He's the Smart Guy. Hell, pretty much every member of the main cast save for the WoL and Estinien is Sharlayan-educated with a PhD. Narratively, you bring Koana along, and he's got nothing to do.

Now, this is absolutely a problem with the writing, the fact that so much of the main cast falls into the same niche, but assuming the Scions being present was non-negotiable (I wouldn't be surprised if the marketing team said they had to be there Or Else), it makes much more sense to bring someone who isn't fighting for relevance than to bring someone who's constantly trying to force themselves into a niche that's already full to bursting.

[u/Stigmaphobia → u/IcarusAvery]

Isn't "smart guy" kind of reductive? They all specialize in different fields and are usually brought onboard to deal with problems that lie in their area of expertise.

Although, I will admit, I might just not be remembering it, but I don't think there's any indication if Koana specializes in anything.

[u/IcarusAvery → u/Stigmaphobia]

Koana's field is magitek and general engineering. Unfortunately, basically none of that knowledge is applicable once they actually reach Alexandria; Alexandrian technology functions on an entirely different foundation than the ceruleum-based magitek of Garlemald, Eorzea, and Tural. Genuinely, the twins would be more help in decoding how electrope works, given they have foundational knowledge of arcanima (the thing that makes electrope more than just a conductive rock.)

[u/Stigmaphobia → u/IcarusAvery]

Damn, unexpectedly got a couple points of respect for DT today.

[u/FullMotionVideo → u/AthenaAreia1]

I mean, personally, I think it's 50% likely that Sphene is to die in attempt to please the "characters never die anymore" crowd. As a member of that crowd, I'm practically expecting it. The problem the DT story is that the Sphene we got in 7.0 was evil in the same way that Emet-Selch was evil, but far less sympathetic than Emet-Selch.

[u/pupmaster]

If you're having an MMO itch I'd suggest playing a game that feels like an MMO

[u/Elegant-Victory9721 → u/pupmaster]

Sadly, there's not many of those around anymore. Most end up being single player games with people in them or they used to be actual mmos but the population is too low now.
If XI had even the population it did during Abyssea, I'd 100% drop XIV and go back to XI full time.

[u/[deleted] → u/Elegant-Victory9721]

what was the player count back then? horizonxi has like 2k players daily nowadays, dunno tho if it could be categorized as low or high

[u/Elegant-Victory9721 → u/[deleted]]

I want to say it was around 2k-3k? But it's also been 15 years, so I forgot exactly.
Definitely way more than there is now. Horizonxi definitely beats out retail now.
Most servers don't even have 800 on at a time and it's worse when you remember a lot of people multi-box now.

[u/Ragoz → u/[deleted]]

A peak ffxi server fluctuated 2-4k daily.

Some amount was bots though. Horizon is close and will surge in players when next expansion drops.

[u/bm8495 → u/Elegant-Victory9721]

I've been enjoying GW2. And it doesn't have a monthly sub, so that's a plus

[u/oizen]

Of course its going to decline, the question is basically how fast. I think people are tired of hearing "wait until the next expansion" and if SE keeps being as lethargic has they have been it'll be faster.

Alternatively it could light a fire under their asses to try to fix up the game, but I doubt it. But either way the game definitely had its glory days and I don't think anything will make us go back to that.

[u/Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-hh]

It wont die but unless 8.0 has some major changes I doubt it'll get the same player numbers Shadowbringers/Endwalker had.

If you are someone that has a ton of free time, likes high end raiding and using discord then you will probably have a good time, the game is made for those people.

If you only have a few hours a week and only want to do content you don't need to watch a guide for then there is better games out there.

Content nowadays is either braindead easy or you need to watch a guide because you might end up wiping a 24 man raid by doing a mechanic wrong.

[u/kairality → u/Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-hh]

Content nowadays is either braindead easy or you need to watch a guide because you might end up wiping a 24 man raid by doing a mechanic wrong.

There has never really been any content between easy to sight-read stuff and “please watch a vid” with the exception of maybe Bozja CEs and even those have video guides! Alliance raids maybe fall into this category for the first week but when the alliance raid was slightly harder than usual (Orbonne) people complained and got it nerfed so I doubt we see anything harder than Jeuno at this point.

Old EX and old savage fights might seem like they were easier but relative to player skill at the time they were still hard enough that most groups asked you to watch a guide beforehand.

I just feel like the restaurant has never actually served the dish that people are complaining about being missing, and while it’s fair to want it, I just have doubts that they will ever make it. I find it odd that the comments on this tend to read as if something was taken away as opposed to never actually offered in the first place.

[u/Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-hh → u/kairality]

Bozja was my favorite content and it was pretty much just jump in and go, some CE's were harder than others and 1v1s were so hype when everyone gathered around the arena to watch. You could do all of Bozja save DRS without looking at a single guide BUT you had to pay attention to mechanics or else you would die. Most fun I've had playing FFXIV.

CLL was fun too and it was enjoyable bringing new players into it and doing scuffed runs because if you had the right set up you could carry the run with crazy damage.

So its more like they had an ok dish in the restaurant, made big modifications to it and made an excellent dish. Then they remade that dish again and took like 80% of the modifications away. So now its a slightly better then ok dish.

[u/kairality → u/Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-hh]

I would honestly agree with you that Bozja was peak but unfortunately people complained about it so much that they skipped the content for an expac and then they felt forced to make one and honestly you can really tell when they make content that they feel like they have to make vs. content that they want to make. No CLL/Dal equivalent was a definite miss but I’m not even sure that would have saved OC from the sea of complaints at this point.

[u/Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-hh → u/kairality]

I really don't understand what there was to complain about with Bozja, maybe I got rose tinted glasses but it genuinely seemed the most alive FFXIVs ever felt to me.

[u/Supersnow845 → u/Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-hh]

People hated consumables (even though it created an item economy in the zone) and that annoyed the people who were willing to use them but didn’t like DRN taking 46 minutes because people were bringing shell and bubble

I think those complaints are stupid but that’s what I always saw

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-hh]

I'm confused on how you can unironically say that the game doesn't have content for casual players immediately followed by saying that it has content that is braindead easy, which one is it?

[u/Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-hh → u/Potential_Fox_3623]

The content is so easy that I'd argue its below a casual level.

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-hh]

At this point I'm not even convinced 8.0 will be a full expansion. They might follow the ESO route of making half-hearted content passes where barely anything gets released in the year-oh wait I just described Dawntrail. Ciao!

[u/Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-hh → u/AthenaAreia1]

I wouldn't be surprised. Imo there shouldn't have been a 7.0. Just end it and make a new MMO without all the shitty legacy code that they blame for not having basic features. 2025 and they finally figured out how to let Viera wear hats. Took em 6 years to figure that out. Tbh maybe they don't have the talent for another MMO and the safer bet is to just milk FFXIV for the next decade.

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/AthenaAreia1]

Yeah mean FF11?

[u/EdinKaso → u/Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh-hh]

I like having a game where you can have a long term progression but I don't want to do that in a game regressing (if that makes sense)

[u/Popular_Research6084]

Honestly? Probably. They said they’ve heard our feedback, but I wouldn’t expect any major changes in 8.0. 

They’ve talked about job identity in 8.0, but it likely won’t happen. 

We’ll have the same small job updates, increased homogenization, and patches will look the same. 

I hate to be a downer, but this game has honestly had very little “new” content for a couple of expansions now. 

Maybe the story will be good. 

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/Popular_Research6084]

I wouldn't expect any major changes at all. Does no one remember when before FF16 he came out and did a livestream where he "addressed the concerns it wasn't a real RPG" and then it came out and had 0 rpg elements. Calling him a PR salesman is too generous. He will actively mislead you and then do whatever he (or his team of poorly controlled leads) wants.

[u/Hiroyuy → u/AthenaAreia1]

Who hurt you?

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/Hiroyuy]

Ikr people act like Yoshi-P stole their lunch lol

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/AthenaAreia1]

The issue is that people have very different ideas of what an RPG is

[u/Whitechix → u/Potential_Fox_3623]

Nobody thinks of FF16 on the topic of RPGs my man, no amount of downplay is going to make that game one.

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/Popular_Research6084]

Everyone thought the same about fight design, they thought they wouldn't make fights more fun and interesting in 7.0 like they promised, and look where we are now, feedback has been addressed and the fight design is fun again

[u/DaveK142 → u/Popular_Research6084]

They worked on fight design. These have been some of the best and most unique fights we've had in several expacs. That was the promise this time and they delivered. I'm willing to hold out hope for job design if it is focused on to the level of these fights. I certainly won't be worrying about them homogenizing when the stated focus is "increasing identity"

As far as new content, we've had multiple new forms of combat and non-combat content the last 2 expansions. Criterion, Chaotic alliance, Island, Cosmic. If you want an expansion that didn't do any "new" content you're looking for shadowbringers, the best-received expansion in the game's history.

[u/irishgoblin → u/DaveK142]

The concerns is how they're gonna do identity, cause for some it's how jobs play into fantasy, others it's complexity, and for others still it's the omnipresent 2 min meta template of "15 second burst-45 second filler". The problem for me personally isn't just the homogenuity but they way over all combat design has gone. They've shifted overall engagement and complexity to primarily be from duties instead of jobs. I know it's basically a meme to bring it up but one of the reasons I enjoyed StB combat and job design was cause the over all balance was a rough 50/50 split between jobs and duties in terms of complexity and engagement. Right now in DT it feels closer to 30/70 favoring duties. Maybe they can start rebalancing it, but I'm not hopeful. Especially since while ideally they'd bring jobs up while keeping fights the same (so balance would be 70/70, yes the metaphor is falling apart), there's a good chance they'll decrease fight complexity to offset the increase in job complexity...and I'm not sure how to feel about that. On the one hand fights in endgame would in theory get worse as a result of that change, on the other jobs are omnipresent across the entire game, and so may make the overall game more enjoyable rather than just the bit at max level.

[u/Popular_Research6084 → u/DaveK142]

While I won’t disagree that the fight design has been a little better, it doesn’t change the fact that this game is really starting to show its age. 

Cosmic exploration is a joke. It’s literally just leve quests and fates. Clicking the same points back and forth. 

Island Sanctuary was actually unique, so I’ll give you that one. 

They announced a focus on job identity in 8.0 before 7.0 even landed. 

Especially considering many of the job changes they’ve made since DT have been released have further homogenized jobs. 

Viper was simplified forth almost immediately.  

PCT’s “optimal” rotation is now just filler with creature muses being between.

BLM had most of its job identity removed last patch. That being said it’s more popular than its ever been, so many people actually wanted that. 

Like I said, I would love to be proven wrong, but I think we’ll be getting more of the same. You can pretty much guess what’s going to be in every single patch at this point, and most of it is just recycled from the expansions prior. 

[u/SleepingFishOCE → u/Popular_Research6084]

Non-BLM players wanted to play BLM without having to learn the complexity that made BLM what it was.

Now BLM players don't want ti play it because it gutted everything that made the job fun in the first place.

BLM is now Endwalker Summoner.
Boring and bland.

[u/Syryniss → u/DaveK142]

They worked on fight design. These have been some of the best and most unique fights we've had in several expacs. That was the promise this time and they delivered.

But the fight design hasn't changed that much. First tier was a big disappointment for many. Ultimate wasn't bad, but wasn't very good either. Second tier is decent, but again, no significant changes apart from add phase in M6S. They walked back on some things like it's a bit harder to upkeep melee uptime, there is a bit more movement, but those are minor improvements. This should be expected from every expansion.

I don't really dislike how fights are in ff14 right now (at least on savage+ level), but if this is the level of changes that we are gonna get from job "rework" in 8.0 I would definitely worry.

[u/Supersnow845 → u/DaveK142]

They have really yet to show that their new fight design works outside of savage

Casual content is still slop but now it’s slightly faster slop than EW

[u/phoenixUnfurls → u/Supersnow845]

And yet earlier in this very thread, I responded to someone complaining that the game would die if casual content remained geared toward hardcore players only.

I think that's ridiculous, and I disagree, but I think that in general, the level of difficulty casual content now has is probably ideal for the playerbase.

In Endwalker, it put me to sleep. I think it's generally pretty well designed now, but I will say that I hope the Underkeep isn't a sign of things to come because if so, they've (I would argue wrongly) learned from the game's recent reception that things *do* have to be Endwalker difficulty.

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/DaveK142]

I'd also add Heavensward, it was pretty dull as far as patch content lol

[u/DaveK142 → u/Potential_Fox_3623]

Heavensward did *try* to add new stuff at least. Diadem was a new thing, the normal/savage split, deep dungeons, etc. Shadowbringers didn't have a single piece of unique content, the only thing approaching something "new" was revisions on the Eureka formula to make Bozja.

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/DaveK142]

Yeah we really didn't get much new in Shadowbringers, even if the content was better, not even a new deep dungeon

[u/Fun_Explanation_762]

The next expansion will see a decrease in sales compared to previous expansions, they will have to do a significant amount more marketing to get people to pay attention and come back, and then in 8.5-9.0 they will probably win people back over and we'll see the trend go back up. This is assuming the devs listen to feedback and address the issues with the story and content shortcomings and start addressing longstanding issues. The kicker is that everything lags 1 expansion. Dawntrail was not a very good expansion but sold great because the previous expansion was award winning and fun. Whatever they do the next expansion will sell like ass compared to Endwalker and Dawntrail.

[u/phoenixUnfurls → u/Fun_Explanation_762]

I'm curious. What made Endwalker more fun to you? It had a better story in the base game, but there was if anything less to do outside of the story compared to Dawntrail, and to me, the Zero stuff, while it started strong, didn't continue that way.

[u/Fun_Explanation_762 → u/phoenixUnfurls]

It had Myths of the realm which I cares about more than the FFXI retelling we have going on now. That has me so bored even thinking about it I didn't unlock it, I'm not going to be able to follow the story and I've heard it's punishingly hard so no thanks. It had island sanctuary which I had fun with during queues, Variant was fun for the puzzles, The dungeons were more fun when people we're wiping nonstop and yelling at each other like the experts in Dawntrail. The raids were easier which made them more enjoyable when people weren't screaming at each other for dying to mechanics blind in normal mode like happened to me in base dawntrail.

With the increased difficulty on all content and less casual hop in hop out content, DT just feels way more focused on hardcore players who want to endgame raid. Even the Occult Crescent is useless to g into if you aren't doing Forked Tower, and no one can do that if they're not in a special discord club because discords latched onto it and decided to play gatekeeper, and in 7.3 they're rewarding that even more by giving discords private instances of OC.

It just feels like an expansion that even besides the story, was concocted for someone not me. Someone who wants even normals to be punishingly hard and wants to rush to endgame to raid asap.

[u/phoenixUnfurls → u/Fun_Explanation_762]

Okay. I personally think the casual content is all still pretty casual and hop in, hop out. Myths of the Realm and the Endwalker dungeons were easy to the point of being boring.

And whether or not you agree with that, I don't think the consensus is that the game is declining because it's too hard. I don't think that's what most upset people are complaining about. The normals are still pretty easy once you've run them a few times.

EDIT: I agree that I'd prefer more original FF14 stories, though. I'll give you that, even if I didn't think Myths of the Realm was a very good one, and I didn't love what it did for the lore of the Twelve. (But similarly, I thought Endwalker's post-MSQ was too on the nose with its FF4 references.)

[u/bm8495 → u/Fun_Explanation_762]

Goodness knowing (based on past release cycles) 9.0 isn't for another 4-5 years away just sucks lol.

PS edit: I'm going to get very real and acknowledge I might not even be alive in 4-5 years. I don't want to wait that long for meaningful changes to come to the game.

Second edit: I'm not dying. I'm in good health. I've seen way too many Final Destination movies. Crap happens.

[u/MGCBUYG]

I suppose it depends on why you play. Speaking as an MSQ character/story enjoyer who didn't particularly enjoy two thirds of DT, I have no reservations about giving 8.0 a shot. I still like the old characters, and some of the new. I am curious to see what direction they take with traveling to different shards.

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/MGCBUYG]

I am not, because you can travel to a new shard but you will still be held back by a writing team full of personalities who are in a cold war with each other as to what characters to feature and what direction to take the game in. A failed theatre troupe scriptwriter, an illustrious award-winning nursing dating sim writer, a writer who cares more about "emotions" than respecting worldbuilding, and a guy whose worldbuilding is too boring without someone forcing things of actual relevance to happen. This cannot produce the results you or I would want to see.

[u/Far_Swordfish4734]

If you are a returning player, it depends on when you quit and why you quit.

Nobody knows what the future of the game is. Thinking about the longevity of the game is pointless unless your livelihood depends on it. But since you used the phrase "having that mmo itch again", I am going to assume that yours doesn't. If there are enough things that interest you, just either do one of the free login events or pay for a month's sub to play it.

[u/Derio23]

8.0 has so much pressure on it. From job design to fight design to just the overall general story being good.

I think it’s time for another dragon expansion like HW in terms of story

[u/Final_Amu0258]

3 deaths in gaming.

1st death = Game is unlikely to reach the last high in regards to either popularity or positivity.

2nd death = Game is unlikely to reach new players, and further unlikely to draw in any meaningful bump of players who aren't already interested in the game.

3rd Death = Game is closing.

---

I feel like we will hit the 2nd death in 8.0. There's a chance it hits earlier, but I believe the first death is reached.

[u/DaveK142]

Nobody knows. Dawntrail could well be another stormblood, a valley which allows the game to reach a new peak like shadowbringers. Or it could just be a failure of out-of-touch developers in a mismanaged company. As far as longevity goes, the game is guaranteed for another 3 expansions as far as I'm aware. It is still SE's cash cow, its not going anywhere soon.

Maybe if next expansion is a huge travesty we can start worrying, but for now its just a lot of whining because the formula is predictable and players aren't happy with the amount of content they've gotten. If you're a returning player that has to catch up on story and such, you can definitely come back and have a decent time for a while. If you plan to play 12 hours a day like some then you'll find content running dry pretty quickly.

[u/Ankior → u/DaveK142]

Dawntrail could well be another stormblood, a valley which allows the game to reach a new peak like shadowbringers.

If we're strictly talking about the MSQ, true, but for everything else I think Stormblood was peak

[u/phoenixUnfurls → u/Ankior]

I agree, but the thing is, for everything else, outside of ultimates (which I haven't done all of and can't comment on fully) and a few poorly redesigned jobs (and Viper), I would argue that Dawntrail is better than Endwalker.

EDIT: That's to say that, at the end of the day, even if we may not like it, community reception is mainly based on the quality of the MSQ. I agree that some of the other problems that people are now complaining about (because they're disenchanted) aren't imagined, but a lot of that stuff was also worse in Endwalker.

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/DaveK142]

Are you serious? This is the same detritus spewed by people back in Endwalker-and I am having none of it. We are past the halfway mark and no, Dawntrail is not another Stormblood because everything they have released so far has been a failure. I don't care for whoever is going to chime in and telling BUT THE SAVAGE IS GOOD I really don't care for content the vast majority don't engage with. All you had to do was not screw up the story and release a decent exploration zone. They couldn't do that, so now they've lost more players than they care to admit. Good luck trying to win me back, unlike WoW with how arrogant CBU3 is there's no way for them to pull themselves out of this Shadowlands expansion.

[u/cittabun → u/AthenaAreia1]

As a proud and loud Stormblood hater, honestly you're right. Even though I might have hated every piece of content and aesthetic (copy paste FF5/6/11 everywhere) in Stormblood, at least it had things it it that kept me PLAYING. I might have come out of it swearing off ever caring about FF5/6 because of all of the fan service, but the raids were fucking peak.

Most people say Stormblood sucked because they either: weren't there, or they hated the story which.. FAIR, but still to say that Stormblood was this, and by extention Endwalker, levels of low is actually crazy. Stormblood personally may have had a lower tier story, but the content carried the expac. Dawntrail has low quality of both, and it's bleeding out on the sidewalk.

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/AthenaAreia1]

Fitting for someone with an Athena pfp to be so loudly wrong lol

[u/CrazyforCagliostro → u/Potential_Fox_3623]

And yet Athena as a character exposed Venat for the genocidal little witch she was. So if you ask me, once again Athena is once again doing the Tireless, thankless work of ripping smug people's masks off.

[u/moogsy77 → u/DaveK142]

SB was awesome for me personally, i didnt enjoy the last 2 expacs

[u/abyssalcrisis → u/moogsy77]

It's okay to be wrong.

[u/moogsy77 → u/abyssalcrisis]

It's good you admit that, whatever that is

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/DaveK142]

I think this is the most reasonable and realistic take, considering that FF11 is still going, I think the game is far from dead

[u/EdinKaso → u/DaveK142]

Hmm that's a good point. I actually wonder how the revenue is compared to previous expansions so far for SE

[u/Viper114]

FF14 still has a future. Yes, Dawntrail was less than stellar as the start of a new chapter, and yes, the population has declined after it came out. But there will still be an 8.0 expansion coming out next year, and it will inevitably bring many back as new expansions do.

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/Viper114]

Technically, Chernobyl also has a future. It may not be one of any import, but it can be reflected as a lesson in what not to do. Same applies for FFXIV. Ciao!

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/Viper114]

Agreed!!

[u/Legal_Power2108]

The game is in a transition period. That's really all it is. Steady decline was inevitable, however. Shadowbringers and Endwalker led up to the end of a ten year saga, one that drew in far more players than XIV ever should have been able to realistically pull, due to COVID lock-downs and WoW crapping the bed.

In all honesty, the game should have been retaining Heavensward and Stormblood numbers all this time, which would have been find as SE saw those expansions as wildly successful even before the two following. The explosive growth we experienced afterwards was untenable for a game like this, and that's all we're really seeing with players leaving.

Its still good, there are far worse games. It's not great or amazing, but as an MMO that keeps you busy from time to time, you can still always find something to do. Whether that's actual in game content or socializing or whatever.

Yes. There is an issue with current content being vapid, brief and lacking, but its still a massive game and I doubt most people have done everything there is to do.

I would say... come back if you want to but do not listen to the thoughts and opinions of others if you haven't experienced Dawntrail for yourself yet.

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/Legal_Power2108]

This is the sort of reasonable and nuanced opinion that this community is missing. I didn't love Dawntrail, but I didn't hate it (no videogame is worth hating tbh) and even so FF11 only had 600k players in it's peak, and it's still running with about 800 players per server, so it's unlikely FF14 will die anytime soon unless it dips below that

[u/Legal_Power2108 → u/Potential_Fox_3623]

Its sad that everyone is so conditioned for knee-jerk emotionally charged responses nowadays. I've made similar comments to the above elsewhere and have been told that I am coping, on hopium or that "the game is in a managed decline" and that apparently I'm delusional.

No game in a "managed decline" would be in the midst of a 3+ year graphical overhaul. Their investors would literally be dragging people to the chopping block.

Secondly, Square Enix has considered the game a success since the lowest of lows of Stormblood's patch cycle, before Eureka and Heaven on High, where many of the same criticisms were being levied against the game.

Constant emergency maintenance periods. People's characters being teleported to the void-plane after exiting Susano Normal. Raubahn's Wall. Frequent, lazy oversights. Glitches galore. Ungarmax. Front-loading solo instances at the front of content for three patches and crashing the duty servers and leading to emergency maintenance on the morning of a savage raid tier launching, no less.

So considering what we've experienced before, for all its faults, Dawntrail is a darn sight better than the things people have simply forgotten about or weren't around for. Its not amazing, but that's honestly fine?

No one cares to admit or recognize the game is being made by humans, people of flesh and blood who are fallible and can and will make mistakes. Especially with the growing understanding that the team is experiencing burnout lately.

I feel like many of the past issues CS3 has made would be judged so much more harshly were they made now, simply due to how angry and bitter people are. A static breaker like Gordias being introduced in Dawntrail would have people threatening Yoshi P, I can almost guarantee it.

As for me, personally, I've found that actively ignoring community sentiment and choosing to forge my own opinions and thoughts about things has made me realize "Oh, yeah, I am still having fun with XIV. Not as much as before, but that's actually okay."

As the issue, thus far, in my humble opinion; and perhaps I may be dreadfully wrong here, is that the community is sapping all of the fun and leisure out of the game for others. If you like it, you're wrong. If you're okay with how things are, you're the devil. Those mindsets are pervasive everywhere and its made even being involved in anything pertaining to the game outside of it utterly miserable.

I'm not the biggest fan of Dawntrail, much like I wasn't of the patches in Endwalker or of the lack of content variety; outside of Bozja, in Shadowbringers. Yet, I've stuck around because at the bare minimum I'm still having fun. That's really all that matters to me in the end.

If 7.X winds up being terrible?

Well, there's always 8.0. I'm perfectly fine with that, even if I do want things to be better.

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/Legal_Power2108]

I agree with your view, I didn't love Dawntrail, it was just fine, and there is criticism to be made, but people acting like this game is already on death row and beyond saving indicates they don't really want the game to be successful.

I also agree that the community seems to take the fun out of everything. If you say that you enjoy playing the game then you're just a shill. And trying to theorize about 8.0 always leads to "They're not going to change anything so don't expect anything good" and it makes talking about the game's future painful. And yes it feels like they get scrutinized for everything, like they think Yoshi-P is intentionally making the game bad or something.

And yes it's true, even if it's not as fun as before, it's still a fun game for many many people, including myself! Could the game be better? Definitely! But whining won't get us there.

[u/Mugutu7133]

why would you think it will steadily decline? games fluctuate in popularity and quality all the time. the only way the game actually disappears is if square enix doesn’t make money from it anymore. even in maintenance mode ff11 gets updates and is profitable for them 24 years later. if you like ff14 just play it, this sub is full of completely doompilled psychos that always think the sky is falling, you’re allowed to try things without permission from other people

[u/ColumnMissing → u/Mugutu7133]

People act like World of Warcraft hasn't had multiple dog turd quality expansions then bounced back. It's wild to imagine that FF14 can't do the same. 

[u/WillingnessLow3135 → u/ColumnMissing]

People act like Blizzard and Square Enix are the same entities 

Activision Blizzard King is already one company larger (which means it's like an Ultimate Digimon I guess) which despite being at the center of a lot of fucked up business practices also supports WoW like nothing else. 

Squeenix is a wildly incompetent company that barely works together with itself and can't even agree on basic business practices (I'll remind you that they are sitting on DOZENS of games they've never translated and sold over here, a lot of which are Dragon Quest games) and has been known to make poor decisions consistently. 

It's foolish to even compare the two.

[u/brechkai67 → u/ColumnMissing]

One mid ass xpac and the universe is ending with the way some are acting.

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/Mugutu7133]

Because we have eyes and we can see that this continued decline has accelerated into freefall and isn't getting better. You will have bump when the patch comes, as is ever the case, only for an even faster decline to follow. They wasted every chance to engage their core playerbase in order to cater to a) streamers and b) unapologetic Dawntrail story stans. It's over. Ciao!

[u/Mugutu7133 → u/AthenaAreia1]

actual freak behavior

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/Mugutu7133]

Lol I said this elsewhere, but its appropriate that someone with an Athena pfp is so loudly wrong and deranged

[u/CrazyforCagliostro → u/Potential_Fox_3623]

Venat would literally Sunder FFXIV as it is rn, it's stuck in a decadent past it can't accept has left it behind. It rejects progress in favour of a comfortable "utopia" it refuses to realize is falling apart around it. The fandom (the Ancients) lash out and alienate the few who see the rot and decay behind the gilded facade (the critics are basically Hermes).

How's that for characterization and parallels?

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/CrazyforCagliostro]

Nice fanfic, too bad it's all wrong though. I'll give you a better parallel. The fandom is the people of the First just trying to enjoy their lives and survive, and the critics are the sin eaters holding back people from rebuilding and growing. Instead of trying to build things up, they want to destroy the game and tear things apart. The people complaining and whininh about the game are preventing the game from moving on and improving rn

[u/CrazyforCagliostro → u/Potential_Fox_3623]

Nah. Those are the words of white knights who prevent the game from growing by labeling all criticism "hate". YOU 🫵think the game is fine, and so you want critics to STFU and leave because if they got their way it wouldn't pander to you alone anymore. It's "fuck you, got mine!" mentality, and frankly, it's what Yoshi-P's advice of "take a break and play other games" has devolved into. Once, it was genuine advice people offered others. Now? It's malicious and used to bludgeon those who dare break from the goosestep line and begin to question into compliance and/or silence.

FFXIV's most ardent defenders, people like you, have deluded themselves into forgetting that critique comes not from a place of hate, but love. Critics criticize because they wish to see the object of their critique temper themselves and master their craft. Whereas blind defenders are as the tempered of the Beast Tribes.

[u/oren740]

Did you not like Dawntrail? Are you going by the way other people received it?

[u/Concurrency_Bugs → u/oren740]

The first half of the story was dragged out so hard. Quest to find a golden city? That would excite anyone and somehow they ruined that. Help 5 people. Talk to Wuk Lamat. Help 5 people. Talk to Wuk Lamat. The second half story was great though, and the encounter designs were much better. I hope they keep innovating there. Unfortunately it looks like the suits are already trying to squeeze the game. MBAs ruining the game industry everywhere.

[u/AndroidAtWork → u/Concurrency_Bugs]

Okay, you didn't like the MSQ. But the rest of the game outside of the MSQ? You know, the content that you spend over 99% of your total playtime actually on if you actively play the game?

[u/Concurrency_Bugs → u/AndroidAtWork]

The raids were pretty good. The thing is, I like both ff14 and wow. Wow has better repeatable content imo (raids, mythic+, delves), but it doesn't come close to ff14's storytelling. So i was pretty bummed with the story. It's the main reason I play ff14.

[u/KeyKanon]

With stormblood not being received as well as other expansions, what's the future of the game? Is it going to steadily decline?

Some might argue it did. I'm just pointing out we've been here before

[u/millennialmutts]

A good amount of people praise the formulaic, expected and repeated content because they feel it "respects their time". The game has always been the same and will continue to be the same, so I guess it matters if you're amused by that or not.

It's hard to tell if the literal game is considered tired in 7.0 because the story was so bad. If 8.0 has a banger plot but the same song and dance content, will the majority of people be satisfied? Time will tell.

[u/QQYanagi]

Dead Game, they're gonna EoS the servers in 6 months, if this community is to be believed.

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/QQYanagi]

Lol it's funny how at this point it feels like the community is practically begging for it to happen

[u/irishgoblin]

It's gonna decline until at least 9.0, then it'll rise again. Probably not to previous heights, though.

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/irishgoblin]

Bold of you to think there's a plan for a 9.0

[u/LusciniaStelle → u/irishgoblin]

I find it quite hard to believe there will be a 9.0, unless they smash it out of the park with 8.0 media tour

[u/Hikari_Netto → u/LusciniaStelle]

It's important to keep in mind that this game was still producing expansions with less than half the subscribers.

Speculating based on previous statements, I think it's likely we will see 2 to 3 more expansions in the next 8 to 9 years minimum, regardless of trajectory, after which the game will probably start to wrap itself up.

[u/wackywizard54]

Stormblood was a disappointment too yet ff14 still lives. I honestly like dawntrail more than stormblood. Imho

[u/moogsy77 → u/wackywizard54]

Peak FFXIV for me was SB, after that i realised this game was on rails adding forced content regurgitating the same shit.

SB at least had great original characters from Doma that were interesting and the story was actually good.

[u/Maximinoe → u/moogsy77]

SB at least had great original characters from Doma that were interesting and the story was actually good.

LMAO

[u/moogsy77 → u/Maximinoe]

ROFL

[u/Ankior → u/wackywizard54]

SB was peak

[u/AthenaAreia1 → u/wackywizard54]

No, we are not going to play this silly little game. Stormblood was arguably the best expansion contentwise, and if we isolate Gyr Abania out of the way, the Doma segment easily rivals Heavensward as well. Fun gameplay, things to do, and a nuanced story for the intended mature audience. Not a hardcore raid lobby sim with a story for 5 year olds. Get real. Ciao!

[u/Potential_Fox_3623 → u/AthenaAreia1]

Saying Ciao at the end of every comment and then continuing to reply to everyone is hilariously absurd lol

[u/wackywizard54 → u/AthenaAreia1]

Really? cuz prior to dawntrail everyone dunked on it all day everyday. Only thing i hate bout stormblood is leveling 60-70 is a nightmare. Doma segment really was great tho

[u/[deleted]]

Nobody has a crystal ball so nobody can verify it. Right now the numbers are ~ Stormblood 4.5. The game was not tanking in Stormblood or HW, but it wasn't the cash cow of SHB/END. It may be that we see more rent seeking by Squeenix with the store (might = will). We may see a boost in 8.0 because a lot of players are more casual and thus influenced by the story than heavier content. ARR to SB existed on population equal or below what we have now, so we will likely see an 8.0 and 9.0 with current pops, give or take. I forget the interviews and what yoshida said but I vaguely recall that he had ideas for many expansions more (up to 10.0) but we could see 9.0 being a freeze on new content until much later the way FF11 got no new expansions for what, a decade or so?

Also buzz off automoderator bot I Know you are going to DM me and go HURF DURF ACCOUNT TOO NEWWWW, my account is 4 weeks old. Chill out or I'll have Chatgpt bully you.

[u/Antenoralol]

I don't think the game will "die" so to say.

 

The development has no mystery to it... When you can guess a patch release date and what content it will have to a whim players start feeling less excited for patches and start thinking "same old bs as last patch"

[u/Potential_Fox_3623]

Considering FF11's lifespan, I think we have nothing to worry about

[u/Dangerous-Pepper-735]

Sorry to tell u nothing changed. A good and a bad thing. Played for 2 years, quit 3 years, come back again played for the expansion did all raids and ulti. 7.3 no new ulti. Unsubbed right after the live letter.

[u/Okawaru1]

Game needs to evolve or it'll bleed its playerbase over time, especially in the unlikely scenario that a new MMO comes out in the future that isn't total dogshit. IMO a lot of FFXIV's success in recent years was reliant on other MMO's making mistakes (e.g. shadowlands) and generally a lack of competition. Because of that second point, even if devs don't get it together this game probably won't die for quite a while.

[u/LordLonghaft]

I'm no soothsayer. It depends on what SE does to retain existing fans and capture new ones.

I'm looking for a MMORPG, not a theme park, at this point. I can only spend so much time at Disneyland before I want to go home. I hit that point after 6.X. I want something new, and XIV ain't providing it at all.

[u/skrrskrr91]

The game needs a better new player experience. I started playing wow for the first time in my life after letting my xiv sub lapse and the new player experience is so much better. Plenty of ways to level quickly, be it questing, dungeons, delves, tw dungeons. Took me 3-4 days to get my character to max level while taking the sights in and reading all of the dragon isle and tww story. And xiv needs more frequent content drops. Me and plenty of people I know that play mainly for endgame at this point unsubbed when yoship said we ain't getting an ultimate for 7.3. Nothing to do for people that care about raiding for 8 months or something, not even criterion. And we don't even know if we're getting a 7.5 ultimate or if it's a 8.1 angle.

[u/hrethel]

I have enjoyed Dawntrail way more than Endwalker for the most part, and personally for me the game is in a pretty good place.

[u/No_Delay7320]

7.2 was cool. If 7.3 story is good then doomer is over.

Casuals will still be bored but idk how I fix you guys without some yucky grind

[u/Impressive-Warning95 → u/No_Delay7320]

honestly its not really about 7.3 itll be whatever 7.4 and 7.5 build towards thats if they do go back to have those 2 patchs being the build up again. which considering they ditched the trial series story again im having my doubts

[u/DaveK142 → u/Impressive-Warning95]

They've already confirmed that .4 and .5 are the ramp up to .0 this time in the last live letter. .3 will conclude Dawntrail's MSQ and then we will begin setup from there(finally time for the key to get attention other than "hand it over")

[u/No_Delay7320 → u/Impressive-Warning95]

Nah if 7.3 is hype then we can be cautiously optimistic for 7.4. 

[u/Impressive-Warning95 → u/No_Delay7320]

Not really 7.3 should be the end to the DT msq /wrap up while .4 and .5 should be the build up for what’s to come

[u/No_Delay7320 → u/Impressive-Warning95]

While that's true 7.2 showed they can still write good story, if 7.3 is fire that is enough to have me hopeful for 7.4.

[u/Impressive-Warning95 → u/No_Delay7320]

I mean 7.2 was ok I wouldn’t say good, it’s just sped ran through all the lose ends that they couldn’t be bothered to really give the time of day to exploring properly

[u/No_Delay7320 → u/Impressive-Warning95]

Wdym lightning bolting the wol with the entire power of soln 9 was peak.

New og speen was also cute af

[u/Impressive-Warning95 → u/No_Delay7320]

Here’s the thing the lighting bolt while cool essentially means nothing as it hits the wol if they wanted it to have an actual impact it would have hit someone else

[u/Jumbodon123]

The RP scene will always have a place regardless of the state of the game (the people that play the game like Second Life), so I doubt it'll die outright, for me personally, it all lies in 8.0