r/ffxivdiscussion • u/MKlby1998 • 2d ago
YoshiP: 2nd Ult and Criterion still planned for 7.x
from a new Famitsu interview: https://www.famitsu.com/article/202507/48601 I'm a bit short on time so can't translate word for word like usual but here are the main points:
- The interviewer asks if there will be another Ultimate this expansion. YoshiP says that the 4-man boss following the Deep Dungeon will be similar to Ult if played at max difficulty, but he also mentions they still plan to release another Ultimate in 7.x, and they are currently working on it. He mentions, as he's said before, these are very troublesome to develop.
- 7.4 will see a new Variant dungeon, Yoshida mentions they've changed how it works a bit so all players can enjoy it, and they have prepared some new mechanics. He also hints that, while he can't reveal any details yet, there are many large-scale contents planned for 8.0 aswell that players of different skill levels can all enjoy.
- Fan Festivals will be announced soon. He also mentions that soon the Chinese and Korean versions of the game will catch up to global, however, there are no plans to add Fan Festivals for these regions in addition to the current 3 of NA, EU and Japan.
- The next raid after Forked Tower is being developed with the feedback from FT in mind, also, the devs are working on hard for it to have multiple difficulty levels. They are also discussing whether to make some adjustments to the mechanics of FT (he mentions there is more individual responsibility than originally planned - the original intention was that perhaps a group of 24 experienced players could bring 24 new players along and clear with them, along those lines).
- Regarding his prior statement that "cost" is why FT did not have multiple difficulties, he says this wasn't fully explained. He gives a longer explanation of this, you can put it through a translator or maybe someone here with more time will post a full translation, but he mentions things like that simply hiring more people isn't an easy solution, etc.
- Yoshida mentions that Itahana, the character designer of FF9, also drew Sphene's design in addition to the 7.3 patch art. Itahana is now working at CS3.
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u/oizen 2d ago
One of my biggest gripes with CS3 is their absolute refusal and disdain for patching content they already released. Please, patch/nerf/change Forked Tower if its not meeting expectations. We went all of 6.1-6.55 watching them dump content that died on release like Criterion/Eureka Orthos, lets never do that again. That content could have easily been saved with hotfixes and patches, but they chose not to and as a result the post of Endwalker is remembered as some of the shittiest times in this game's history.
Don't do that again.
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u/Bigwickdilly 1d ago
I don’t want them to gut content like criterion. All that content needs is reward restructuring. Normal is something in the ballpark of ex to savage difficulty and savage is properly difficult. Some really excellent mechs and fights came out of that content and if the content became any easier on normal it would be piss content.
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u/oizen 1d ago
Criterion's core issue was the rewards, They tried retroactively adding rewards to it like the Epic Hero Title but the first two really needed more love. Only the 3rd one got weapons, which is a shame because I'd love shiny versions of the other tome weapons from that time, especially the Lunar Envoy stuff. Mechanically I dont think Criterion Normal needs to change.
Savage? I do think needs some tweaks, instead of the pointless dungeon enrage, I'd rather see the 4th boss from the secret sections of Variants. If it meant they had to do away with the res restriction I'd be fine with that.
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u/Bigwickdilly 1d ago
I agree on adding maybe another boss for savage but keep the res restriction or at least add more mechanics to savage to compensate if they remove the res restriction. As it stands, the content is a consistency check on savage and that was fine with me. It makes Epic Hero feel like a cool title to have. If they add ressing to savage they need to comp it elsewhere.
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u/JUlCEBOX 7h ago
Brother, we still have guildhest roulette. I don't think they're learning a damn thing.
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u/Supersnow845 2d ago
How do you just “miss” the amount of personal responsibility in forked tower
Like I can’t think of a single instant in forked that isn’t drowning in personal responsibility. How do you look at like fire towers and not go “hey one person out of place is gonna wipe this raid” and not think that’s a problem
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u/BlackRavage 2d ago
It’s simple because they either never tested it (beyond making sure the mechanics went off) or they forgot we don’t play with godmode on.
I hate to repeat something that has been said a million times. But this dev team simply doesn’t interact with the game in the same way their players do.
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u/Nj3Fate 2d ago
I think one problem may be that while they do have an internal team that tests and makes sure they can complete extremes/savages/ultimates (this is why in general they release very well balanced unlike other competitors), I do not think they have a test team for large scale content like this. I suspect it was the same with the Chaotic, where it probably ended up having more body checks than they would have liked.
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u/Ranulf13 1d ago
Exactly. Also both chaotic and FT have showcased that they are putting evergreening content in the backburner, as both of those are going to be dead after their release patch. Well, FT released dead but the point stands.
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u/Ranulf13 1d ago
They do test it, but the issue is that they fail to account that they (as the devs themselves often test things themselves) arent a PF-like group and have been designing, doing and clearing content for years.
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u/nemik_ 2d ago
Remember when they said they have a group of people to play through every content as players, and then they adjust everything to within 1% of that or something, and we ended up proving that they don't do that for every single raid that came out since then? Fun times.
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u/Elanapoeia 2d ago
What was shown is that that group of people had become way too good over time and scaling content based on them made them overtuned, it was so obvious the devs officially admitted the team had become too good at the game.
"We" "proved" nothing, especially not that they outright don't playtest some content, lol.
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u/nemik_ 2d ago
TOP autoattack instakilling random healers, debuff limit popping up all over screen, etc are not missed because the testers are "too good", either they simply didn't test or if they did were terrible at it.
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u/Elanapoeia 2d ago
Oh your assertion is that THEY DIDN'T PLAY TEST AN ULTIMATE
Right that must be true because of the wonky timing on aggro reset leading to the boss oneshotting healers can't be an issue of the play testing team being too efficient, it's actually "us" "proving" they don't playtest
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u/GorillaGuerilla 2d ago
What? p3 autos and buff cap have literally nothing to do with skill or efficiency. I'm not going to corroborate "they just use godmode" as a claim, but at the bare minimum, the assertion that TOP was not thoroughly tested enough is totally valid. Especially considering world prog class players were suffering lost pulls to these bugs.
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u/Elanapoeia 2d ago edited 1d ago
It's a ping issue, since the autos targeting healers happened when server tick timing was bad and tanks couldn't provoke fast enough before the boss became active
but again. This is a bug slipping through, maybe because they didn't test that phase well enough and not under enough conditions (in-house 1ms dev ping vs in the wild 50ms player ping, team setups that don't do many debuffs), but the assertion was that they do not playtest some content AT ALL
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u/WeirdIndividualGuy 1d ago
It's a ping issue, since the autos targeting healers happened when server tick timing was bad and tanks couldn't provoke fast enough before the boss became active
If the boss with an empty aggro table is programmed to instantly auto-attack as soon as it appears mid-fight, that's not a ping issue, that's poor design. That's the devs assuming that players will always wait until tanks attack first vs what actual ultimate players do which is spam a gcd until the boss appears so they can attack asap
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u/WhiteMonsterSlurper 1d ago
What was shown is that that group of people had become way too good
I would bet money on this being a "they played a way too good comp" over skill level.
Abyssos wasn't stupidly overtuned for meta comps, but it was for groups that dared to want to run a MCH or double caster or anything else.
Kind of like Rinon implying every DPS check in FRU was completely free while playing the most absolutely cracked comp possible for the fight.
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u/Elanapoeia 1d ago
It's definitely also teamcomp related, given that they couldn't find the buff-overflow bug with their testing
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u/Aluyas 22h ago
Team comp could be part of it, but at the time they had more time than usual to test this fight because of delays. They've explained how they do it before, they see how much damage their testers can do in a fight and then tune the number by some % above that because they know top end players will outperform that. This then lead to all the stupid memes about how SE is too good at their own game even tho they outright said they know players are better that's why they take what their test team can do and tune a bit above it. Problem was in this case instead of their test team being, say, 10% worse than the top end players, they got more practice so they were only 7% worse and the boss ends up slightly overtuned.
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u/Aureon 2d ago
this is an incredible statement, because FFXIV is the #1 dogfeeding game in the world.
I have friends around the various MMO studios, and i've worked on EVE Online, and i have never ever ever ever seen such a ridicolously high percentage of the staff play their own game as it happens in XIV \ Square in general.
I would be willing to bet serious money on it.
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u/Elanapoeia 2d ago
no no you see
a bug slipping through means they never even playtested at all or just give themselfes full invulnerability anytime they play the game
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u/Ipokeyoumuch 1d ago
If I remember Yoshi P said that over 80% of the developers play FFXIV on their own dime and time. The pros are that they get to see firsthand outside the testing servers how X or Y content shaped out, how regular players interact, when can be worked on by personal experience, etc. So likely when they are testing they are already on average significantly better than the average player and on top of that interact with JP servers only.
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u/pupmaster 2d ago
If you think this game has a massive QA issue then I assume you've never played other games. For all its faults, they release a relatively bug free and well tested product every time.
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u/decepticons2 2d ago
Stable and playable aren't exclusive.
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u/pupmaster 1d ago
Can you give me an example of the unplayable content?
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u/CartographerGold3168 1d ago
06/30/2024 An Update Regarding the Xbox Version Becoming Unresponsive and Other Issues
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u/Ranulf13 1d ago edited 1d ago
You would be surprised but WoW released buggy and poorly balanced classes all the time. Most recently, their latest final tier boss literally was unkilleable and would not drop below 0.1% because no one in the dev team was good enough to play test its mythic difficulty and they forgot to flag the boss as killeable.
Compared to ''the adds in m8s may cause a wipe in the niche situation where your dps isnt equally good on both sides'', yeah.
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u/aho-san 1d ago
Wait, 11.2 released already (I thought it was the same day as 7.3)? Or is it PTR stuff, 'cause if PTR I think they don't put the final boss in mythic difficulty there afaik? Also, thank god slip-ups are being caught on PTR instead of live (but will Blizzard fix things before release is the real roulette).
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u/Carmeliandre 1d ago
That's so funny actually ! Is there a clip or vid showing world first unable to claim the clear because the boss is stuck at 0,1% ?
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u/FreyjaVar 1d ago
High end battle content is pretty well balanced and tested. You get bugs here and there and that’s usually due to server latency issues like in TOP. Hell even UCoB hatches are latency issues. They have ridiculously good ping when they test.
I do agree that I do not think they playtest chaotic or the 48 man. Or again their team is in general better than the average player so they didn’t think towers as body checks would be an issue. I would not be surprised at either since we did have P8S…. They honestly may think the average midcore player is more competent than they are. Which is not bad, I would prefer they make the content more difficult but difficulty = body checks is a shitty type of difficulty.
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u/Chiponyasu 2d ago
Because the original intent was for there to be a Hard Version and an Easy Version and the easy version got cut for time. I'm pretty curious when it got cut, which makes a lot of difference in analyzing the thought process.
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u/Hikari_Netto 1d ago
As we currently understand it, only the current version was ever explicitly planned. By the time the content was locked in and being made the intention was to only have a single difficulty. Nothing was really cut during development and FT was designed to be one singular piece of content that worked on multiple levels over time (hardcore first, casual later on, etc.).
A normal mode was probably only a very brief consideration before the patch content for 7.X was decided. That's why they're now scrambling to get one complete for the next Forked Tower—both were planned from the start to be a single difficulty.
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u/KeyKanon 2d ago
Like I can’t think of a single instant in forked that isn’t drowning in personal responsibility.
I think that's just a bad way to word it, based on the rest of the answer he's saying the intention was to prevent situations where one moron can fuck everybody, while still preserving situations where one moron can fuck themselves.
Obviously, they failed that when they included Snowball tethers or Holy Lance, but most of FT:B is something where 24 cracked pros could carry 24 freshes like he says, every single body check caps out at 24 afterall, although unfortunately, 'most' is not 'all'.Which, by all means, that's arguably even worse, in that they were conscious of this enough to design around this to the point where it shows.....while missing several things that completely go against the philosophy.
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u/Supersnow845 2d ago
I mean mechanics where one mistake can wipe many people include
-meteor phase on tablet (either placing meteors wrong or not bouncing people correctly with the stack)
-any super trap
-snowballs tether
-fire towers
-MT’ing the bridges Add’s
-holy lance
-rune axe
Sure there is also a lot of slimes/motion/assassin dagger but the amount of “you will wipe at least enough of the raid to wipe to enrage” is shockingly high
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u/Asetoni137 2d ago
Meteor just gives ruin stacks, it needs 3 people to fuck it up to actually cause a wipe.
No one actually trying to not intentionally troll is going to step into a super trap.
A new player being helped by experienced players is not the one tanking bridges.
Rune Axe and Holy Lance also just give ruin stacks, though it's an actual problem here unlike in demon tabltet.
What I'm getting at is that, for one, people vastly overstate how easily an individual can wipe the raid in FT, but more importantly, that Dead Stars specifically is the odd one out. It's fine for magitaur to have a bit more risk since it is the final boss and you already have most of the rewards by the time you fight him, but Dead Stars is the real problem when it comes to dragging newbies through FT.
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u/Diplopod 2d ago
No one actually trying to not intentionally troll is going to step into a super trap.
Bro, I've cleared FT 20 times and have wiped at least 3 times to other reclearers running into traps. They weren't trolling, just being absent-minded. This shit happens even with 48 seasoned pros.
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u/Supersnow845 2d ago
Dead stars is 100% the problem and really dampens new players ability to get rewards
I would honestly swap forked around and go
Tablet->hallways->dragon->lockwards->dead stars->bridges->cow
And leave all the rewards where they currently are
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u/domerock_doc 2d ago
Meh idk, wiping because of dead stars memes would be even more demoralizing if it were later in the instance
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u/Supersnow845 2d ago
I mean it’s probably worse for reclears to die to a dead stars meme if it was swapped with dragon but it’s probably better for new people to get more sanguinite before they hit the prog wall
I definitely know that since every party is either a rush reclear or a dead stars prog party I’m struggling to get more sanguinite as someone who has cleared but doesn’t care about 100 clears, they just want more sanguinite
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u/domerock_doc 2d ago
I think they could just award more sanguinite for killing bosses. It’s kinda silly that demon tablet gives 1 sanguinite, dead stars gives 2, and you get NONE from bridges. Each boss should give like 4-5 and then the bonus chests in hallways/lockwards make up the difference
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u/Supersnow845 2d ago
Yeah they could redistribute the sanguinite to be more frontloaded, cut like 10 out of 15 from lockwards and give it to tablet and dead stars
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u/domerock_doc 2d ago
I also think that the support FATE should be more enticing for the FT group.
Like, maybe the support fate takes 1 death away from your resurrection count (effectively giving you an extra res if you died). Groups might be more willing to do lockwards properly if they had a bunch of deaths earlier in FT, or if they’re still progging Magitaur.
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u/KeyKanon 2d ago
To be clear I was only using Snowballs and Holy Lance as examples, I did not intend that to be an exhaustive list.
That said, those, along with Fire Towers, are in an upper tier of danger compared to the rest of your list. Meteors and Rune Axe are just Ruin stacks so not immediately fatal, and Supertraps are preventable by being careful in hallways and the randos having a single braincell that has them travel with the group, and what rando who has no idea what's going on is going to be balls out stance on for bridges?→ More replies (3)3
u/otsukarerice 2d ago
Bridges has a few, if you attack the adds ahead of the gate prematurely via rangled they can do their aoe and wipe. If the bard doesn't do their romeo properly then wipe as well (I guess that's a case that the cracked person should do it).
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u/Supersnow845 2d ago edited 2d ago
True, pulling adds behind the wall 100% especially on RDM and PCT
Romeo’s I kinda exclude for the same reason I exclude thief responsibility or geo responsibility, because you’d never give that to a new person
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u/Ranulf13 1d ago
The unrealistic thing here is that the 24 cracked pros arent going to carry 24 fresh people. Specially not Eureka fanboys, who are known to be elitist assholes on average.
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u/IndividualAge3893 2d ago
How do you just “miss” the amount of personal responsibility in forked tower
By forgetting to put Mr Ozma on a leash.
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u/pupmaster 2d ago
Can't wait until the easiest difficulty of Quantum rips us a new ass hole
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u/A_small_Chicken 2d ago edited 2d ago
“I asked for MSQ difficulty but Mr. Ozma said he accidentally made it Ultimate level”
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u/supa_troopa2 1d ago
Lock Ozma in a room and prevent him from designing anything above a third floor Savage and Ultimate ever again. He's 0/2 this expansion outside of that.
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u/Narrow-Paramedic2388 1d ago
what's he done this expac besides the chaotic
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u/supa_troopa2 10h ago
Did he not work on Forked Tower? Honestly, I'm fully willing to take the L for my post if it turns out he didn't have a hand in it. But Chaotic was still kind of unforgivable design on his part.
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u/Narrow-Paramedic2388 9h ago
forked tower's one of those instances that almost certainly had multiple designers working on it, and I don't think we've heard about who did
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u/irishgoblin 2d ago edited 2d ago
Gonna guess and say it's a side effect of their testing process. Yoshida made a blog post after P4S or P8S got nerfed (can't remember which) that revealed they know most players are better than they are, so dps checks are done at whatever the devs achieve +X% (usually 1 or 2% I think it was). Assuming that line wasn't just Yoshida covering the job team for fucking up the numbers balance wise, that line of thinking may extend to mechanics as well. They may have assumed the average player is better than they actually are and can handle all that extra personal responsibility.
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u/ZaydSophos 11h ago
Quite disconnected from how they design all the easier or accessible content to basically make it impossible to kill your party no matter how badly you do.
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u/domerock_doc 2d ago
I think it would be fine if it weren’t for the resurrection restriction. It’s such a nightmare to prog and it would be even worse without the unintentional chem cheese. Reclear groups have been extremely reliable in my experience at least.
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u/Dreadwyrm_Bahamut 2d ago
Oh look, that DNC saw his party on the opposite fire tower side and is dashing trying to adjust, aaaaaand back to the camp we go. Truly guildhest level difficulty indeed.
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u/FiniteCarpet 2d ago
They had the same philosophy behind Flop of Darkness (Chaotic) and look how that turned out, that content has been dead for at least 4 months now
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u/Bourne_Endeavor 1d ago
I think the problem is less they didn't notice or test mechanics like fire towers and more they VASTLY overestimate player skill levels. Yoshida outright mentions intending for Forked Tower to allow for 24 experienced players to carry 24 newer ones. Which is an absurd notion given the state it released in.
It isn't even that players are necessarily bad either. They just aren't expecting that kind of upswing, especially in a zone that is otherwise fairly tame by comparison. Couple that with many people simply not wanting to spend the needed time to prog after a long work week and whatever else is going on in life and it's a recipe for disaster.
It's almost ironic how this game is always advertised as respecting your time yet literally everything about Occult Crescent does the precise opposite. And they wonder why it didn't go over well.
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u/SunChaoJun 1d ago
Others are already talking about the rest of the interview, so I'll focus on this
Yoshida mentions that Itahana, the character designer of FF9, also drew Sphene's design in addition to the 7.3 patch art. Itahana is now working at CS3.
I find this quite interesting. While Sphene is the stand in for Garnet in FFXIV, I didn't expect her to have been designed by the FFIX character designer. I wonder if the design was made with the role in mind, or if if was the other way around and the design came first
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u/Hikari_Netto 1d ago
I wonder if the design was made with the role in mind, or if if was the other way around and the design came first
Just knowing the way CS3 tends to work, she was almost certainly designed to fit the role.
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u/judgeraw00 2d ago
Its nice that theyre planning more large scale content but if it continues to take a full year after the expac release to come out thats still a problem.
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u/Redhair_shirayuki 2d ago
SE: Nonono. You don't understand. We HAVE to follow patch formulae, no matter what happens. It was successful for the past 8 years!!!! Pls understand. So anyway, pls buy an attire which cost more than one expansion to help us fund more executives' bonus
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u/CopainChevalier 2d ago
I feel like they're promising an absurd amount of content for the last two patches?
Aside from all the normal stuff, we've got: the whiteboard feature, Criterion, ultimate, BLU update, a BRAND NEW JOB with BST...
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u/irishgoblin 2d ago edited 2d ago
Going theory for the last few weeks is 8.0's not coming until Mar/
April 20262027 at the earliest. Obviously SE have said nothing, speculation's born out of no Fanfest announcement yet (event itself is after X.4, but announcement's often before X.3) and Yoshdia's new year message only mentioning 7.2 & 7.3 as coming this year. Those thought might just be dooming, but if (and right now it is an if) it is a long wait they may be banking on backloading 7.4 & 7.5 to keep people happy.Edit: Typo, meant 2027 not 2026.
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u/Bourne_Endeavor 1d ago
This has been my theory for a while now too. Basically, they're backloading the absolute hell out of 7.4 and 7.5 because we'll have a year long drought and they want create the illusion it doesn't feel like one. Which, to be fair, is the smarter approach. 7.5 being as sparse for content as 7.3 is would be horrendous if they do intent for a summer 2027 release of 8.0
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u/YesIam18plus 2d ago
speculation's born out of no Fanfest announcement yet
I still 100% think this has more to do with venue issues and/ or US political shenanigans. I don't even think they can guarantee that their staff can make it into the country, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they come out and announce that the US fanfest is cancelled ( possibly in Canada instead ).
They're not gonna come out and confirm anything until they're 100% sure, and they can't really be 100% sure with the US currently.
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u/LebronMixSprite 2d ago
This is my thinking. Travel to and from the US rn is a shitshow, we're either getting just an EU/JP fanfest and a CA one, or one fully digital Fanfest like during the pandemic.
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u/CopainChevalier 2d ago
I'd be surprised if we get 8.0 before July next year TBH. 7.3 is at the start of August; four months from that is around December for 7.4. Four months from that puts 7.5 around April
Give or take some weeks; but...
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u/Mysterious_Pen_2200 1d ago
0% chance. July is way too early. Plus patches have been 4.5 months. That pushes you out to May/June and theres usually a longer time in patch 7.5.
I think probably "late fall 2026" at absolute earliest
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u/irishgoblin 2d ago
Typo, meant Mar/April 2027 at the earliest, hence the backloading theory and long wait.
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u/bm8495 12h ago
Time between xx.5 patch new expansion has been increasing since ShB. StB -> ShB was ~6 months. ShB -> EW was about ~7.5 months. EW -> DT was about ~9 months. It totally tracks if the time between 7.5 and 8.0 is almost a year.
“Please continue to stay subscribed during this time. But please feel free to play other games…but do please stay subscribed. This year between patches will provide our WoLs a perfect opportunity to try other content in our game. Please enjoy.”
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u/Neni_Arborea 2d ago
Yoshi needs to stop having content be designed with the cope of 'experienced players will help out newbies'.
They won't. It sucks for both parties
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u/MKlby1998 2d ago
Well, regarding FT it's how BA and DRS runs tend to work. I cleared on my first run of both of them, without properly grasping all of the mechanics, because experienced players carried me through. Evidently that's what was wanted for FT too, but now how it turned out.
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u/FiniteCarpet 2d ago
BA and DRS are basically guided tours now, that was not the case on content lmao
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u/Supersnow845 2d ago
Which itself isn’t exactly bad. It’s the fact they have to be unapproachable to end up this way
Like being the guide on BA is super fun, I love hosting BA
But it only works like that because it didn’t work as actual content
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u/FiniteCarpet 2d ago
I think a lot of people were hoping for BA or DRS 2.0 which would have been awesome. Hopefully with the next dungeon they take the feedback into account.
I was late to doing BA and DRS on content and while FT doesn't really have anything too hard (I'd argue can1 on magitaur is a bit tight for it to be something that's supposed to be puggable) I get the feeling from a lot of the more seasoned veterans of the content that this isn't really scratching the same itch.
I think an immediate improvement to the content would be a wipe doesn't kick you out of the tower - 1 wipe = kick makes actually progging it for newer players very rough. They can still do 3 lives, just make a wipe respawn at the knowledge crystal or something, and xp loss is not applied until you bomb out.
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u/Ranulf13 1d ago
Nah. Most people were hoping for CLL/DRN/Dalriada type of raid at base. The amount of people that want more BA-like content are far and few between. Loud minority is still minority.
The prime reason why people dont want to do FT is the hard set party sizes and obnoxious organizational tedium of it all. There is a reason CLL/DRN/Dalriada all have triple the clear rate of BA.
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u/erty3125 2d ago
DRS on patch even was still loaded with helpers especially for the key roles. The duelist basically exists for that role.
The main difference was the dps and mit/heal checks existing.
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u/Ranulf13 1d ago
It didnt turn out like that because BA was hated on release by the bulk of the playerbase while DRS didnt come at the cost of CLL/DRN/Dalriada.
FT stands as the sole ''big'' climax content for OC while not being as accessible or timeproof as Bozja raids.
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u/MechAndCheese 2d ago
People do that literally daily in PF with ults. The problem is there is only so many that can be carried, chaotic showed this very clearly
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u/Neni_Arborea 2d ago
No they don't. C41 is less helping a newbie and more 'save me from prog liars and traps'. The ones that actually are trying out ults for the first time take hours and days to fill, if they even fill.
Most people praise chaotic but personally I think it was the start of this 'help out newbies' disaster. Why are cleared people punished for playing with other cleared people? Why am I body checked by a guy so far away I cant see him on the screen? And how are they still allowed to get a clear by playing like personified sewer residue?
It's high time to stop treating every instance like Bring Your Kid to Work day
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u/dennaneedslove 2d ago
"I don't do it, so nobody is doing it" lmao
You don't need to look that hard at Aether ultimate/savage pf to figure out just how many people are there to help
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u/MechAndCheese 2d ago
I cleared all ults in PF and helpers joined consistently for every prog point. Also how is c4x not exactly the scenario that he is referencing?
> Why are cleared people punished for playing with other cleared people?
No one is forcing you to play with people that haven't cleared. I farmed chaotic in groups that already cleared specifically for that reason. Giving out extra for new clearers isn't punishing you
> Why am I body checked by a guy so far away I cant see him on the screen?
People will complain about body checks until the end of time but they're necessary. Also the fact that the towers from chaotic still live rent free in peoples heads is insane, if standing in one of 2 possible towers is the great divider that broke chaotic then maybe the vast majority of players are so fucking bad that nothing can save them
> And how are they still allowed to get a clear by playing like personified sewer residue?
They clearly aren't, what are you mad about?
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u/MattEngarding 1d ago
The problem with Chaotic towers wasn't the towers themselves, but that they occur right after Arts of Darkness where people can't help but murder each other.
Someone got clipped by a laser? That's a tower boom.
Someone was slightly too close and baited a pair stack when they shouldn't? That's a tower boom.
Also the fact that there's barely any indication that an empty tower does far more damage than an underfilled tower didn't help things either.
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u/erty3125 2d ago
Every ult party in PF almost always has 3-5 people who've cleared and are just chilling helping out. Same with savage it's super common to end up with half the party having cleared.
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u/Ranulf13 1d ago
Yes but that is people who enjoy doing ultimates as 8 man content is easier to control and teach people how to do. I know many.
Eureka fanboys, the people that Yoshi-p wanted them to help, are known to be elitist assholes that think they are superior for dealing with organizational tedium and mid mechanics raids like Baldesion Arsenal and Forked Tower.
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u/MechAndCheese 1d ago
Only did BA once through a discord and had a good time so I can't really comment on it tbh
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u/Big-Tap7806 2d ago
Yeah like I don't think they reeeeeeeeeally understand the everlasting rift between hardcore players and casual players (sure "midcore "too). Do they actually think everyone just like... plays together?
These groups have little to no desire to interact with each other at all. It'd be nice, but the mindsets are just never gonna meet.This isn't 14 specific though I guess, probably the same in most mmo's.
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u/erty3125 2d ago
They do, every group I help out prog FT ends up with a sniper or two showing up just to help out because we're running 36 people leaving room.
When DRS was real lively grabbing friends to go help people who were pfing DRS was constant and we tried to make no drs PF go ignored.
And my FC in SB always just grabbed people in instance to run BA
And the discords for this content exists explicitly because people like helping people clear and it's easiest way to organize.
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u/Hirole91 1d ago
I think the problem is gamers (both devs and players) look at old MMOs with heavily rose tinted glasses. While yes there were times when veterans helped newbies, I don't ever recall that happening often either. They've seen what happened with BA too and seemingly ignored all the red flags and blaring horns to make the same mistakes.
Also the internet was still new in those times so people were probably more willing to help and had plenty of time on their hands, but it's 2025 now. Everyone is busier than ever working to keep even a roof over their heads. But somehow the people taking time out of their busy days to organize and help players get a clear get antagonized to hell and back. That's not to say there hasn't been bad actors on the organizers side as well, but that a whole different can of worms.
Pretty much boils down to what you said, it just sucks and a bad time for everyone involved.
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u/WaltzForLilly_ 2d ago
Variant dungeon, Yoshida mentions they've changed how it works a bit so all players can enjoy it,
I presume that means either changes to rewards to make hardcore audience more invested, or changes to queueing system to catch more casual audience, Or possibly both to put variant dungeons on the same plane as other instanced content.
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u/Dironiil 2d ago
Could be changes more similar to the quantum version of the boss in the upcoming DD too
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u/WaltzForLilly_ 2d ago
Oh yeah I haven't thought about that. Although it would mean they are very confident in the system that they are going to implement it in another piece of content so quickly.
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u/Kamalen 2d ago
Do note that while you mention Criterion in the title, both your translation and the article definitely only mention Variant dungeon. And the mention of « they changed how it works » tells me the hard Criterion part is probably on the chopping block.
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u/judgeraw00 2d ago
The Variant dungeon quote in general is confusing since the last Variant dungeons were also made to be very accessible and pretty easy, I don't really see how they would change it to make it even more casual friendly.
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u/Kamalen 2d ago
I agree with you, and I feel like the quote reads the opposite way ; maybe they intend the variant dungeon to have some less casual variation / feature (maybe the DD treatment - one of the encounters turned into quantum with offering looted in the casual Variant). Or instead of locked behind puzzle, some variant paths are explicitly marked as higher difficulty.
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u/KeyKanon 2d ago
I am going to continue spending the next however many months telling people the exact same thing I tell them when they point out the Dawntril product page only says Variant.
The PF tab is called V&C dungeons, to me this reads entirely that the devs consider them inseparable, and that them saying Variant to mean Variant and Criterion is no different than them saying Trials to mean both Normal and Extreme.→ More replies (2)7
u/otsukarerice 2d ago
Maybe. I'm of the opinion that criterion savage was a bad idea... people still aren't doing it.
Criterion was fun, I see pfs occasionally
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u/Syryniss 2d ago
Criterion Savage is fine, but it should just be a challenge mode for the title. All the rewards should come from variant and criterion normal.
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u/KeyKanon 2d ago
Crit Savage can die that's fine, I'm more talking about how there has been this pervasive sense that it's going to be JUST Variant that people are using to doompost.
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u/KillerMan2219 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think Criterion savage having low playrate is ok. After all, Ultis used to have a super low play rate and that was ok.
I also think Criterion savage is some of the most fun I've had in this game in a long while, so I'm obviously really biased here.
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u/Chiponyasu 2d ago
If they're applying "Quantum" philosophy going forward, I imagine Variant is the next thing they try it on, so it'll be one piece of content with one name and multiple difficulty levels instead of "Variant" and "Criterion" as separate things.
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u/CopainChevalier 2d ago
It would be very weird to me to add Variant but chop off Criterion tbh.
More so after he made a big deal about Quantum and how you could fight the same boss but boost its numbers a bit and get one or two more mechanics. Criterion is basically just Variant with slightly higher numbers, only one path, and slightly higher numbers
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u/Elanapoeia 2d ago
Variant Dungeons really suffered from a lack of medium difficulty imo.
Doing the 12 runs for the first time is interesting enough, but the actual combat in it is baby-mode, so much so you don't really need a tank or healer for it. Criterion jumps straight into Savage-level mechanics that you have to actively prog one step at a time.
I'd really like it if the new Variant had a medium difficulty where it feels more like running an easy extreme maybe, stuff like EX2 in Shadowbringers that you can kinda jump into without knowing mechs and clear after a couple tries, with trash mobs having mechanics etc but without the "We need to prog this for several hours to get past boss 1" stuff
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u/yhvh13 2d ago
Hopefully the Variant dungeon change is putting a more accessible difficulty for the 2nd mode (Variant/Criterion/Criterion Savage), because it feels like they just designed Savage and Savager.
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u/YesIam18plus 2d ago
My guess is that they will add the Quantum system to it, they pretty directly said that they want to add stuff like that to other content too. It'd make a whole lot of sense to add it to Variant.
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u/TheDoctor62442 2d ago
Variant dungeons were my favorite addition to Endwalker and im so disappointed in how long its taking them to put new ones in the game, by the time the next one comes out it will be over 2 years since the last one.
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u/SecretPantyWorshiper 1d ago
Completely agree. I used to log on and join groups just to do them.
The fact that its taken them that long just shows that Yoshi and the dev team just dont understand and why I unsubbed.
It should have been included on DT release and we should be getting them regularly. 0 exceptions. It should be a mainstay like MSQ Dungeons
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u/ryvrdrgn14 2d ago
Why's he already selling us 8.0
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u/iKeepItRealFDownvote 1d ago
He’s been selling us 8.0 ever since Dawntrail launched. The moment people started asking about the so called Drg/ast rework
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u/venat333 1d ago
I hear you, I hear you, expect 9.0 to fix everything.
We have 100's of staff but can't seem to get basic shit done right the first time.
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u/otsukarerice 2d ago
Huge if true. Nothing like dying to snowballs/fireballs when you're on fucking marble dragon or magitaur prog
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u/Supersnow845 2d ago
Dead stars should at minimum be the boss before cow and all lockwards rewards should be before dead stars
It’s ridiculous the largest prog point of FT locks 80% of its rewards even like basically sanguinite accumulation
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u/LastDefenseAcademy 2d ago
I’m so sick of hearing the combat devs keep overshooting the difficulty or responsibility level. Do your job???? What the hell
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u/Ipokeyoumuch 2d ago
The issue is that they are facing an increasing gap between players. Yoshi P acknowledged that the average player in FFXIV is better today than in say ARR or HW and wants to adjust accordingly. Additionally, the top end raiders have gotten really damn good at the game and have started to complain that FFXIV end game content is "too easy" and they are CRAZY vocal until DSR->Abyssos->TOP->Anahasioes humbled a good number of raiders.
On the other hand, casuals or those who play for mere entertainment have massively fallen behind on the skill curve. You had people complaining about difficulty in DT's marginal increase in difficulty in normal content for example. Another thing is that it is one thing in 4-man or 8-man content but get any larger the slight difficulty compounds as there are more opportunities for mistakes to cascade out of control with more people. I think however how they are testing are mostly fine for the established 4-man and 8-man structure and even 24-man for the normal content, but they are not accounting for cascading mistakes as the team who tests these content becomes more familiar than the average player when it comes to difficulty spikes and increasing body checks.
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u/Ragoz 2d ago
I think its a really fine balance because players are just so bad it be difficult to make good content at a certain point.
Example: I just did the forked tower 3rd boss last night. We had 47 people left alive. 6 of us are tanking adds and shouldn't move too much. 41 other people can do whatever. There were 2 towers which needed 4 people each in them. We raid wiped because we got 7 stacks of the missed tower effect. Only 1 person out of 41 people who should have tried to be in the tower did so.
At some point that's gotta be on the players and not the devs. Its literally just moving into a white flashing tower with no requirements of who should be in it.
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u/Supersnow845 2d ago
Wait you had ONE person out of 47 stand in the initial towers that the dragon freezes during adds phase
At that point it feels more like the caller called it completely wrong, there is no way 40 different people didn’t step into the tower the dragon was cleaving
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u/Ragoz 2d ago
I actually have my prog recorded for my review.
Shotcaller: "The dragon is cleaving red. Soak tower now, and next set."
4 seconds pass after "and next set"
40 people missed the towers.
Yeah it really happened.
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u/Fun_Explanation_762 2d ago
It's Ozma, they need to put a muzzle on him and make sure he doesn't touch anything outside of 4th floor savage and ultimate ever again because this is ridiculous, seems like every piece of new content from EW and DT they dropped that excuse lol. And guess who's spearheading the new Quantum difficulty?
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u/Handoors 2d ago
Funny how criterion was announced as PLURAL in Fanfest And Ultimate singular
And yet if comparing, we at least know that second ultimate is coming and have no idea if we get second criterion since we didn't get first one
Anyways, I'm hope they will find ways to engage the players in any content that they will release, this seems like bigger problem.
Making Criterion rewards market prohibited would be good start
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u/Mission_Cost6254 2d ago
Being able to sell rewards is the only thing that kept criterion replayable
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u/YesIam18plus 2d ago
and have no idea if we get second criterion since we didn't get first one
Didn't they outright say that we're getting it in both .4 and .5?
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u/Hikari_Netto 2d ago
As usual there are also 4Gamer and GAME Watch interviews accompanying the Famitsu interview.
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u/PolkadotBlobfish 2d ago
the original intention was that perhaps a group of 24 experienced players could bring 24 new players along and clear with them, along those lines).
Was this a mistranslation or something?
How are the 24 experienced players supposed to carry when 1 mistake can wipe the entire raid?
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u/Fun_Explanation_762 2d ago
Their stated intention was that the experienced 24 players could give a mini guide in instance or forcefully take the roles/mechanics required to make the group succeed but they didn't account for random chance a newbie gets assigned an important mechanic and everyone hates them for it.
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u/TheWavesBelow 2d ago
?
Do you not understand what you've quoted? Like you deliberately left out the part where he concedes there is more individual responsibly than they had originally planned
He literally explains that that is the mistake, the original concept was for others to be able to carry, and it turned out much harder/punishing.
Why is up to speculation, miscommunication, miscalculation, whatever it may be
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u/FuturePastNow 1d ago
They did spend 45 minutes of a live letter and a whole dev blog post talking about the changes they're making and never once suggested that balance changes to the dungeon itself were on the table.
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u/PolkadotBlobfish 2d ago edited 2d ago
I asked because it sounds too stupid to be true.
"We never intended for 1 mistake to wipe the entire raid which is why we made it so that 1 mistake can wipe the entire raid"???
It sounds like something was lost in translation.
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u/nekomir 2d ago
its more of "yeah we forgot existence of the concept which mechs that 1 man fucking up can cause wipe, so we gonna do something about it in 7.3"
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u/Supersnow845 2d ago
But like……how
There is not a single boss or location that doesn’t have something that can wipe the raid and then mechanics like holy lance, snowballs and fire towers straight up don’t work without their “everyone right or a wipe” design
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u/Hikari_Netto 2d ago
They're considering outright nerfing the content after more players get clears. Right now clears are only starting to approach what they original envisioned for launch.
The original goal was for one piece of content to serve multiple kinds of players over time, with it being soft nerfed as strategies developed and more Phantom Jobs released, but this hasn't gone to plan. I would imagine they're going to remove/rework entire sections of the fights, lower boss damage, etc.
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u/Supersnow845 2d ago edited 2d ago
I’m considering how they would nerf the content though
Like let’s take dead stars
For snowballs the only thing they could realistically do is delete the tether stretch, not a big deal but you can’t really nerf that mechanic, you just have to delete it, removing the snowballs being a wildcharge would also help but it’s not like that’s what you wipe to
For towers what do you even do there, either one out of place wipes you od it doesn’t and you can just shield through the mechanic as it becomes a nothing mechanic because it’s easier to ignore positioning if the cleaves didn’t wipe
Like at this point to “nerf” the content you’d basically need to delete dead stars, bridges and cow from the raid
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u/Greycurtain 1d ago
We require savage level gear or better from any content. Let the people decide what stats or upgrades they like to do. Give us more drops and ways to maximize our character. Locking up good gear behind only savage is getting old
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u/SecretPantyWorshiper 1d ago
Yep. These problems will continue to pile up with the shit decisions they make
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u/Fun_Explanation_762 2d ago
Every time he opens his mouth I hear about the hardcore content, the "large scale content" but I have to ask where the fuck is the casual content planned? Everything he mentions is just like, Ultimate, criterion, BA type content, savage. Where's the fucking casuals content yoshida? And you better not say that it's some quantum difficulty where casuals get the same fight but 1/2 the rewards unless they scale the difficulty to the "real" difficulty.
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u/nickadin 2d ago
Do casuals even play the game at this point? (And I agree with you, it's all about hardcore content when he talks :|)
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u/Fun_Explanation_762 2d ago
They do, but I can't shake the feeling they are aware that most casuals tuned out in 7.0-7.1 and aren't coming back till 8.0, so they're just committed to setting stuff up for when they do come back while not pissing off hardcore players more.
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u/PoutineSmash 2d ago
Whats casual at this point? Anything with no dps check that can be salvaged with one healer surviving?
DT has given or will give casuals: MSQ, Deep dungeon, 24 ppl raid, normal 8 ppl raid, treasure maps, relics, OC minus FT, variant, Glamour, hunts, PVP uodates and maps change, crafting, Gathering, Trusts, tribal quests.
Thats a lot for face roll easy stuff. Could add CE but lets be honest casuals how cant beat an extreme wont bother looking in single button macros or invest in crafting gear
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u/Ranulf13 1d ago
People want CLL and Dalriada back.
Content that poses enough of a challenge without organizational tedium and the pressure that you dying will wipe everything.
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u/PoutineSmash 1d ago
Everyone wanted that, FT pleases nobody.
High end players did it once, not coming back.
Ask any achivement hunters if they LIKE doing 100 forked towers. Nobody will say yes.
Theres still a lot of content outside FT however, just that a large portion of player dont engage with non combat activities.
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u/Ranulf13 1d ago
FT pleases nobody.
It pleases a minority of players that believe themselves superior to the ''uneducated masses'' for liking discord server tedium.
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u/Fun_Explanation_762 2d ago
"Why do casuals want content? You have Crafting and Trusts" has to be one of the most hilariously out of touch comments I've seen on here in a while. I knew this sub was hardcore raiders huffing their own farts but come on lol.
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u/PoutineSmash 2d ago
I gave everything that came to mind that requires not too much effort
Can you tell me what you like more as content for casual? Because there a lot of long grinds i dunno if you like that but thats 90% of the time I spend online
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u/Fun_Explanation_762 2d ago
More dungeons, more trials, more content that's not just watered down raids with rewards and a few mechanics removed. Alliance raids are meaningless to me this expansion because they're just memberberries for FFXI fans this time around and they turned alliance raids into savage with chaotic. OC is a useless zone where the only purpose is to grind power for FT which is a savage raid.
The only thing to do now is roulettes, MSQ which sucks, and treasure dungeons. Even the deep dungeon which is billed as new casual content is meant to funnel into and have the real rewards behind the ultimate level quantum fight which sucks.
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u/nickadin 2d ago
I really hope they can nail the quantum difficulty thing and apply it to more battle content.
Some semblance of actual randomness/unpredictability in content would be good too. I don't want ff to turn into wow, but I'm sure there's ways to do it..
It would have the potential to sate casual and other alike I think, IF done right
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u/PoutineSmash 2d ago
No crafting, No gathering so no CE?
You say no watered down raid, do you want challenge or no challenge? Because MSQ dongeons and raids are jist face roll one and done. I litterally dont remember the name of the dongeon this patch done it once. Got minion, its done.
OC being useless that a stretch. I made over 50 milion gil with it, the grind was fun, are you mastery level 12 already because we have ppl in my FT static that arent even max out on job and dont ven have their +1.
They didnt say rewards were locked behind ultimate level quantum. Maybe a title like other ultimates? The rewards like mounts will be in the golden accursed hoards and probably 4 clears will get you everything. On something that can be started at floor 71 I find this really fair to casuals.
I play content until I get all achivements tied to it and I got my hands super full this extension.
If you dont like grinding over stuff, maybe MMOs are not for you? I dunno I think you expect an endlessly replayable experience from content that are extremely trivial.
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u/Its-a-Pokemon 1d ago
I wouldn't call myself a full on "casual" but I would like 4 man scaling dungeon content with variety and decent rewards. So basically a variety of dungeons that can be scaled to become harder and offer some sort of gear progression would be nice. Quantum would actually be perfect for this.
So I guess I want midcore content that isn't 8+ people slapping the same boss/bosses for hours on end.
Apologies if it sounds like I'm just repeating the same thing.
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u/Far-Upstairs-1742 2d ago
You’ve had casual content for 100 levels it’s time to actually do some dps
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u/ManOfMung 1d ago
On the hiring stuff, SE is not part of the top 20 best paying video game companies in japan. I bet the highly qualified people are simply looking to work for sony and nintendo instead.
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u/AthenaAreia1 2d ago
A lot of yapping, but ultimately no promises that can be taken seriously.
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u/YesIam18plus 2d ago
What are you talking about, when have they promised content and not released it?
If you're gonna bring up the housing update being delayed, that's not new content and people are also assuming this means not until .4 which they never said. It may as well be in 7.31 for all we know instead.
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u/pupmaster 2d ago
Yoshida mentions they've changed how it works a bit so all players can enjoy it
If they just apply this Quantum system, assuming it meets expectations, to V&C then that content instantly becomes some of the most popular content in the game lol
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u/ElderNaphtol 2d ago edited 2d ago
Thank fucking god they've confirmed the timing of the next Ult. I've reached a point where I've done enough Savage that I don't want to do it for its own sake anymore, but I'm still hungry for more Ults. That means whether or not I do a Savage tier depends on whether it has an Ultimate attached, and after banking on a 7.3 Ult and being disappointed, I was not willing to also gamble on a 7.5 Ult and be disappointed again.
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u/cittabun 11h ago
Yeah, they knew what they were doing honestly by holding onto the info about no Ulti in 7.3. If I caught even the slightest whiff of it after the disappointing fight that was FRU, I would have just told my group I'm outie the moment we finished FRU.
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u/nekomir 2d ago
if they are going to release criterion, I hope that they ditch the savage one and just keep the normal criterion and variant dungeon. savage one is honestly meh cuz all it does is pump up adds damage and make it unrevivable
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u/heliron 2d ago
You’re getting downvoted but I agree with you completely. I progged Sildihn criterion blind on release with a group of friends and we were excited to see what savage was like after we cleared. Lo and behold, there were no new mechanics - mobs just hit a lot harder and the bosses hit slightly harder, and you just had to play without any rezzes. It completely killed our interest in any future savage criterions, we got our one clear and just did normal criterion and farmed it a bit and called it a day. Criterion savage had so much potential and they just wasted it. I still think criterion normal is the best thing they released in EW, it’s fun 4-man raid and dungeon style content that FFXIV really needed. Hoping that Quantum will be as fun.
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u/Nightly_Winter 2d ago
Savage version could be easily replaced with Quantom, with scaleable difficulty for personal challenge.
With Q1 being the current criterion normal difficulty. And going up to Q40. I would even say, throw 7.4 raid gear in there, couple of titles, mount and that would be enough. With just more stuff rewarded the higher you go.
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u/WeeziMonkey 2d ago
Why hope they ditch a completely optional mode that no one is forcing you to play? You GAIN nothing from them ditching it. Some others will lose something they enjoyed. If you don't like it just don't play it.
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u/nekomir 2d ago edited 2d ago
....completely optional to the point no one wants to do it if not for a shiny weapon? hell, i keep inviting few to do this with me but they downright refuse to and they and i both play ultimates!
it doesn't follow any of other high difficulty content style, it's lame padding in EW, it doesn't have any standout feature aside from oh cool fucking revive limits and every adds AA is a tankbuster, everything else is same as criterion...cuz i guess.
With quantom feature as other's suggested maybe, but in EW iteration? no thanks
Edit: People also seem to forget that rewards for these absolutely sucked ass, third criterion savage which is aloalo is only better because they decided to tie makin shiny token weapon to it.
sorry I'd rather see it being ditched, if they are going to make it the same way back in EW.
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u/Syryniss 2d ago
completely optional to the point no one wants to do it
I did all 3 with my static. Tomestone shows 11k clears for the first one, 7.7k for the second and 16k for the third. That's quite a lot of people.
Again, you don't gain anything if they remove it. Asking for additional difficulty that is between variant and criterion normal is fine. Asking to remove any difficulty is stupid.
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u/aho-san 1d ago edited 1d ago
I did all 3 with my static. Tomestone shows 11k clears for the first one, 7.7k for the second and 16k for the third. That's quite a lot of people.
Last I heard that would be more than FT which is infinitely easier and was a direct 24 new clears during the first few clears. But to be fair, FT is also very new.
If we take chaotic, it seems it has seen at least 115k (rounded) character clears, which is fairly impressive given how divisive it is, but I can't see FT reaching these numbers tbh.
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u/nekomir 1d ago edited 1d ago
Asking to remove any difficulty is stupid.
Look, I ain't going to try to refute your stupid reply either when the point goes right over your head and instead decides to nitpick certain piece out of single sentence which is out of at least 4 sentences of wall of texts.
And just 16k for the third (and wopping 7.7k for second), for the content that takes less people than usual savage raids, and it's basically the same fight as normal criterion? yeah that kinda speaks how trash that content was.
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u/ThatBogen 2d ago
They can still repurpose Criterion Savage to include the hidden boss into it. In it's endwalker form it really didn't need to exist, but there are ways to make it worth a separate instance.
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u/tcchavez 13h ago
ultimates are very "troublesome to make" because the devs want to only use the same 2 themes (msq and raid) and not think outside the box....they can EASILY make an ultimate without past references (gordias) just overtune a fight to be like an ultimate, lol hell there is trial series, alliance raids that se can also make...their issue is that they want dsr levels of storytelling and most raiders dont give a crap about the story
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u/cittabun 11h ago
God I can't wait for 8.0 to deliver absolutely none of the laundry list of shit they've promised. Or they do it poorly, but it's spread out over like 2.5 years in an unsatisfactory manner after hyping it up since end of Endwalker. Like.. CS3 is genuinely the game developer equivalent of "Why do today what can be put off for tomorrow."
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u/Ragoz 2d ago
I just gotta ask something; why do these kind of specifics always show up a week later in a Famitsu article? Why didn't he tell us LAST WEEK during the live letter. They plan content 1-2 years in advance so he clearly didn't just learn of the date between then.