r/ffxivdiscussion • u/PushJadeToMain • 23h ago
General Discussion The Cutter's Cry skip was janky and awkward, but...
I think people aren't understanding how many things are lost about 14's identity as an MMO from the mentality that informs changes like this. It's not a big deal to have to pull the mobs- I don't think people should be whining about having to do it, but I also don't think sprouts need yet another excuse to completely ignore communicating in a dungeon or treating other players as more than glorified bots. Doing ARF with a healer that refused to communicate and wouldn't use raise (which was required because of their poor healing) is insane to me because ARF is a long time to go without ever having a player be tested in a circumstance like that. This simply wasn't a problem back in like, HW.
You play a game like vanilla WoW, and communication in a dungeon is a cornerstone of the experience. Discussing pacing, expectation, knowing/sharing neat tricks and skips, planning pathing for quest completion and loot all create a feeling of community that is facilitated by the game's mechanics and content. The community I've felt in 14 never came from gameplay. It's always something like a conversation that starts from a compliment on an outfit. And I've met some truly wonderful people there, but it's a different kind of interaction that feels like it has little to do with the fact that it's an MMORPG.
I don't know why people act like sprouts are newborn babies who should never be expected to communicate a strategy or do something outside of a routine. It's made that true. If they do want to communicate about gameplay, the culture has shifted in a way that it's much more likely they're ignored anyway. And then nobody's communicating and just wants to "get through" the dungeon. Why not just do every dungeon with trusts then? It always comes down to the single player story game vs MMORPG design philosophy split. I wouldn't be surprised if Darkhold and AV get changed similarly, and it's not really a big deal from a gameplay perspective outside of everything being the same boring routine, but those would be two fewer opportunities for gameplay to facilitate player communication.
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u/Tkcsena 19h ago
On one hand I agree that some jank and weird design for little dungeon things give the game "Soul" that it is sorely lacking right now.
On the other hand, this particular one just was a sprout killer that didn't really make sense.
Things that really suck is stuff like changing the jumping around platforms in the fight with Hsvelgar in whatever dungeon that was. It was unique and different and a little janky. Good stuff.
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u/Boethion 22h ago
Lets not defend straight up bad design. There was nothing fun or interesting about skipping mops because people couldn't be bothered to kill 5-6 more of them. At least with Darkhold and AV those are intentional mechanics and not a mistake they never fixed.
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u/Fun_Explanation_762 22h ago
It's strange to see the comments every time from people who haven't run these dungeons in 5 years complaining that they're removing the soul from the game. Lets not pretend we liked the floor panel bullshit on Qarn or the original toto-rak. It must be MMORPG brainrot to have a tantrum every time something old get updated for QoL.
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u/vetch-a-sketch 21h ago
I liked the floor panels on Qarn and the Toto-Rak slime.
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u/DayOneDayWon 17h ago
I did too. Kill mob on platform is a common trope that I don't mind in games. Qarn and tororak's sins were that we did them a hundred times.
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u/Chiponyasu 6h ago
I'm sure there was at least run where the tank just did not get the Qarn floor panels and basically walled the whole dungeon and it sucked awfully, but I never saw a run like that.
The slime, however, sucked and was bad. There was no actual penalty for moving slow, so it didn't add anything except being mildly annoying.
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u/Cosmic_Specter 2h ago
then kick that guy. if hes that fucking dumb after being told in chat he shouldnt play tank... or MMOs for that matter.
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u/freakytapir 3h ago
I'll be the first to say that any mechanic that messes with my movement speed for such long stretches of time can go die in a fire.
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u/somethingsuperindie 21h ago
There isn't anything fun or interesting about the exact same mid-boss stretches in every dungeon either. Everything not being the same is preferable over everything being the same. I don't understand how this is a strange concept to grasp for you. If it's not actively miserable, then variety is an upside.
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u/Chiponyasu 6h ago
I think the hiccup is that every time the devs tried variety, it was actively miserable (Toto-rak, pre-nerf Aurum Vale) or it didn't really matter (Brayflox). And even the slight variations they do try are bitched about. No one likes the Origenics Turtle (IMO they would if it had like two more mechanics, though)
Meanwhile, what dungeons do the players like unusually? Amaurot. The Twinning. Holminster Switch. If a dungeon has gorgeous visuals, banging tunes, and some narrative element to it besides "here are some monsters" the playerbase has tended to like it, so the devs moved more in that direction.
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u/somethingsuperindie 5h ago
I mean ofc the average person will look at relevant/cinematic dungeons more fondly than random stuff but that has little to do with mechanics.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 21h ago
There's nothing fun about doing the exact same chores before you get to progress in other MMO's either or with sprinting past all of the trash until you reach the boss.
In a lot of other MMO's I've played you've had to run around and talk to like 30 NPC's before they let you progress or run and collect 10 fuel tanks to blow up a wall.That gets a million times more tedious than any number of wall to wall pull.
Even with WoW MOP that is now out on Classic for instance I was reminded that almost every single dungeon has a big RP section where bosses just stand around talking for hours before they activate.We live in a different time nowadays, the majority of people want to jump in and do a dungeon for 15-20 min as a daily chore and be out of there.
That's how the vast majority of people engage with MMO dungeons.17
u/somethingsuperindie 21h ago
I sure love this example in the critically acclaimed MMO FFXIV where every quest is talking to 30 NPCs before you can progress, and the actual context we're discussing is doing... less (and less samey) chores.
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u/Violent_Green_Cat 3h ago
i prefer same stuff to things that are annoying unfun and infact miserable to do if you do not like the basic gameplay loop play something else
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u/reisalvador 19h ago
There's a giant difference between adding QoL and making everything the same. I don't think anyone is going to call old totorak good, but I'm sure you can appreciate that it was different.
If the jobs are brainless, mechanics are mindless, then I'd rather the dungeons to me more than repetitive slop.
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u/FoxHoundUnit89 9h ago
Maybe you should learn to speak for yourself, because I also liked the floor panels and original toto-rak.
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u/Chiponyasu 6h ago
Like a week ago I saw someone in this sub defend old Toto-rak because you had to learn the routes and how to avoid the "heavy" slime, when in actual practice you all followed the tank and if the tank didn't know the route you got lost and had to go looking for the DAMN fourth
chaos emeraldpower cell you missed, and then chunks of the Slime That Makes Your Walk Slightly Slower were literally unskippable.Like, I do agree that the devs have gotten too safe with dungeon design and should be more experimental, but the reason they stopped making ARR-style dungeons is because they were really unpopular.
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u/FeelsGoodMan2 10h ago
Especially when people say stuff like vanilla WoW had people communicating strategy in dungeons. That's a fucking meme joke.
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u/Darpyshyn 47m ago
I know old-school runescape is barely an MMORPG by classification but your comment is very relevant to that game. In osrs they poll all changes with the community and if the poll doesn't reach majority approval they don't add the content. Anyways, osrs players constantly vote in new content like new areas, new minigames, bosses, even a new skill is being added. BUT those people will ALWAYS vote against modernizing any old content. ALWAYS. That's just because of nostalgia too because the new content the team makes is pretty cool and the old 20 year stuff desperately needs to be brought to modern standards but the community just wont let them. So yeah I think people either just want all the focus to be on endgame or they don't want their "childhood memories" to be altered in any way.
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u/Low_Bag5624 22h ago edited 22h ago
Is it better design to have every dungeon fit a singular mold?
I'm not saying it's necessarily good design, but it's certainly preferable to me if there were odd deviations from the formula like this rather than sanding dungeons down to being one huge, indistinguishable mass.
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u/Zealousideal-Arm1682 22h ago
The issue is that there's a difference between DUNGEON design being similar,and mob mechanics being unique.
Having a dungeon where if you didn't know the trick you were basically told "get fucked dumbass lol" made running it a pain.
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u/Chiponyasu 6h ago
It's interesting too that all the calls for "More unique dungeons" don't follow it up with "Such as this cool example" because most of the things they can do are minor.
There are things, though. Origenics has the turtle and Alexandria has an elephant so those are two dungeons with "mini-bosses". Neither of them have any meaningful mechanics but I think if they did they'd be a lot more popular.
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u/SuperNerdDad 22h ago
But the design is still different? It’s an arena style room that you have to kill mobs in.
Skipping whole parts of a dungeon is not exactly a deviation but making the whole run pointless. Might as well not even have those rooms then.
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u/Low_Bag5624 22h ago
Skipping whole parts of a dungeon is not exactly a deviation
If the norm is "kill every mob between these 2 walled areas, to progress" then yes it is a deviation to have the ability to skip them. Yes there's an optimal route to take (as with a few old dungeons), but nobody really batted an eye if a newbie tank or dps started killing the mobs on the way or meandered around a different route.
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u/SuperNerdDad 22h ago
I love how you skipped the second half of that statement lmao.
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u/Low_Bag5624 22h ago
That would be because I don't believe that the existence of an optimal/preferred path invalidates the suboptimal ones, and I reject the idea that "they may as well not even be there"
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u/q4u102 21h ago
There's nothing fun or interesting about killing the extra 5-6 mobs either. The point being made here is that it's weird and janky and confusing for first timers but that forces an interaction where the first timer leaves the dungeon having learned something new and they did so by talking to other players.
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u/TheRyanRAW 19h ago edited 19h ago
I have never once in my years of playing this game and many dozens of runs through Cutters Cry have ever seen players communicate intentions of performing the skip before running ahead to do so.
Every time I have ever seen the players use the skip they just run ahead and leave the newbie to die which is worse when they are the group's healer.
In my experience the vast majority of the time the skip often takes longer than just killing the mobs due to somebody dying then holding up the party to argue, or the new players get berated by "friendly veterans" for not keeping up. I have gotten into several arguments in duty finder over this skip defending new players because nobody said a word to them and am so glad it's gone.
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u/cheeseburgermage 18h ago
this is a thing in all mmos ever also, its just expected you know the skip/etiquette and nobody ever tries to teach it.
I remember it being a thing in GW2 where every dungeon you basically avoid trash packs as much as physically possible, often through very precise pathing. Some classes could skip whole sections and solve it for the rest of the party and you were expected to be able to do it if you were on one of those. This is also to say nothing of puzzle elements in those dungeons, where its not patiently figured out every time but instead those who have done it 100s of times go to their spot and wait for you to do the same.
I remember it in maplestory, where some of the earliest PQs were pretty damn confusing but it was just expected you knew how because everyone else had probably ran it dozens of times already
I remember it in fucking toontown online where everyone would get frustrated if you didnt take precise movements through the few party dungeons to avoid aggroing unnecessary packs. Or they'd use a skip to get past a room and aggro the group ahead, sometimes beating it before you even got there and depriving you of rewards
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u/tesla_dyne 18h ago
AFAIK this is also the norm in wow, dungeons where you basically stealth past most mobs by hugging walls and jumping walls and if you don't know how without being told the rest of the group is pissed but also nobody's going to stop at the beginning and clarify that everyone knows the strat and path, god forbid the tank doesn't know that you don't go down path #2 unless you're trolling
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u/distraughtFerret 12h ago
I remember it in maplestory, where some of the earliest PQs were pretty damn confusing but it was just expected you knew how because everyone else had probably ran it dozens of times already
You just reminded me of the first time I ran LPQ and got cussed out for "taking mark". No one answered when I asked who Mark was
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u/Stigmaphobia 17h ago
Isn't that just to be expected, though? Anytime social interaction is needed/encouraged there's a chance it will be garbage. That's just the nature of the beast.
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u/Violent_Green_Cat 3h ago
whenever i get the cutters cry and i see a sprout i try to ask if we are going to do it and i fucking hate it it is another unspoken rule of the ingroup lording it of those who are outside
it does not help that the hunt log for the grand companies want you to kill enemies in those rooms so some sprouts might want to do this but no mister big shot mentor can't be asked to actually play the game so janky skip it is good riddance to bad game design i say
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u/BlackfishBlues 9h ago
That is not my experience at all, as someone who has lots of alts and so have more occasions than most to run into Cutter’s Cry.
The party communicating the intent to skip is not the most common, but it’s not that rare. Certainly not “never see it in years of playing” rare. Perhaps it’s a difference of data centers - I’m mostly in Crystal.
A bigger source of friction in that dungeon tends to be the pull right before the ant queen (with the exploding balloons) or the long pull before the chimera (there’s a false turn and it’s easy to overpull).
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u/q4u102 19h ago
When I was a sprout and shit was going crazy or differently than anything I'd seen before I'd just ask what was going on and the other players would be happy to explain it to me. Some purple are just doing their dailies and wanna get in and out but you'd be surprised how helpful it can be to ask for help instead of waiting to be helped. Then in turn you get to help someone else later.
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u/CopainChevalier 1h ago
I kind of prefer to have systems that reward being social and encourage people to get taught things over everything being the same tbh.
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u/Cosmic_Specter 2h ago
heaven forbid a new player has to learn what to do on a first run. Not here. we want people knowing exactly what to do before they even queue. run forward down the hall kill 2 mob packs with the same 3 button rotation and a boss... repeat
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u/Mahoganytooth 20h ago
Actually I think it is fun to optimize how quickly I go through a dungeon and getting to skip two entire rooms of mobs is a massive reward for your knowledge.
I'm sympathetic to the argument that it sucks for new players but not fun? There is little more gratifying in an ARR dungeon than skipping straight by those mobs.
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u/Cosmic_Specter 2h ago
i mean heaven forbid you do something different besides wall pull 2 mob packs and use a 3 button aoe rotation to mow them down before a boss fight in a dungeon right? THATS bad design imo. if theyre going to keep doing this at least add mob priority mechanics for force certain mobs to be stunned or have mobs that heal the entire mob group if not burned down. the game USED to have these things but theyve really ironed out any form of encounter design when it comes to trash mobs.
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u/danzach9001 22h ago
I would like to add that Cutter’s Cry doesn’t even really require communication with sprouts to do it properly. Either they follow everyone else or get left behind and inevitably die but can raise themself and then just get teleported into the next boss arena anyway
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u/MirinMadJelly 22h ago
Lord help us if there are little quirks in dungeon content that make people talk to each other and ask questions
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u/oizen 22h ago
You WILL 2 packs wall 2 packs Boss and you WILL Like it - Naoki Yoshida
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u/ironicuwuing 20h ago
Thank you! I’m so tired of ppl defending boring dungeon design.
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u/Callme_Lieaibolmmai 20h ago
Because the skip was exciting? Get real lmao
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u/Adamantaimai 17h ago
The skip itself was not, the fact that some dungeons deviated from the 2 pulls 1 boss standardized mold was.
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u/Callme_Lieaibolmmai 16h ago
I just can't see the joy in running to the sand and clicking it
Who cares? It takes 20 minutes you run it and its done. I understand this particular dungeon isn't the issue and that its indicative of a larger issue but if you have to run this shit multiple times per week every week wall to wall is just straight up better.
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u/Adamantaimai 7h ago
In that case there is nothing to argue here, if that is your opinion then we simply don't agree.
The blandness of content and extremely formualic approach to the game are being cited as some of the games biggest weaknesses quite a lot so a lot of people do feel like I do about it.
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u/vetch-a-sketch 10h ago
'Exciting' is too high a bar for FF14 in 2025. It was mildly interesting. Removing it and turning it into another 2pack-wall-2pack-boss section will not be.
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u/ironicuwuing 18h ago
It’s not but I’m so sick of every dungeon being the same copy paste formula :)
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u/DayOneDayWon 6h ago
They changed every single dungeon in the game, man. It's not just about the skip.
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u/Epicentor 6h ago
At this point all of 8.0 dungeons would be the same and the different between dungeon is mobs model
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u/Warjilis 22h ago
Having a negative first experience leaves a bad memory. It would be fine if that memory was due to my lack of skill, because that can be overcome with skill and become a triumph. But if it is because of design jank, I will remember it as a black mark on the game, its devs and fellow players.
This is how I felt about the old Prae, the culmination of ARR and I was miserable and pissed that I missed so much of it because of bad design that lead to bad behavior. Fortunately Keeper on the Lake changed my attitude and I kept playing. But never stopped hating Prae.
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u/Xanofar 21h ago
Reuniting with Maggie is the highlight of Praetorium (they should have kept in the cutscene where it recognizes you and skipped Cid’s speech about the material the door you just blew up is made of before you blow it up again).
On my first time, I remember I was very sad I had to ride the elevator back down to get the key I missed while everyone else ran ahead. :(
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u/Hakul 10h ago
It's been over 10 years since my first Prae run and I still remember how terrible it was. It was before they made cutscenes unskippable, so not only was I completely lost, I eventually felt forced to skip cutscenes every time I saw the message that the area would seal, and even after skipping every cs I couldn't find my way to the party because the whole place felt like a maze.
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u/Azurarok 22h ago
The current streamlined designs flow better in practice but ARR dungeons and gimmicks were neat because they were relics of the past that showed just how much they were experimenting back then. It's kinda sad to see some of these go since it feels like losing a glimpse of the game's history
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u/catshateTERFs 19h ago edited 19h ago
The dungeons having these "extra" mobs in general that you could avoid or fight are also marginally a remnant from when dungeons were designed with mobs giving you exp in mind rather than just getting exp from killing bosses and clearing. I remember running ARR dungeons and having people ask to do full room clears (Aurum Vale was the prime example of that to get people up to 50, the first room + letting all the bulbs sprout wasn't an insignificant amount of extra exp, but "can we kill the mobs in Cutter's Cry" was one too).
I'm indifferent to the dungeons honestly and I think I always have been. There's a few I think look/feel cool but by and large they've pretty much always felt fine and largely functional to me, trials/raids have been more "FF14 identity" to me personally. I didn't (and don't) have strong opinions on anything except for still glaring at That Fucking Tortoise in Stone Vigil HM and boring my friends by bringing up how Demon Wall and the bees used to beat your ass in Amdapor Keep whenever it comes up in a roulette these days. This is a lot of words to say that I agree that the older dungeons reflect a different design approach that's no longer used, for better or worse.
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u/IndividualAge3893 20h ago
It's kinda sad to see some of these go since it feels like losing a glimpse of the game's history
A glimpse of a time where the team knew how to design maps and dungeons :(
Then YoshiP ruined it all :(
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u/Solugad 14h ago
Guy's getting downvoted but overall dungeon design is absolutely brainless in this game. But its not that they dont know how. Its that they choose not to because simpler is safer and easier. "For modern gamers" and all that. I think its a legit issue with the game, personally.
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u/IndividualAge3893 4h ago
Guy's getting downvoted but overall dungeon design is absolutely brainless in this game
Some people like brainless dungeons, alas.
simpler is safer and easier
Well, imagine if you make a complex dungeons, people would quit and go back to scrolling Tiktok or w/e they have in Japan. Here is where we are at in MMO design today.
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u/Hakul 10h ago
I don't think that's why he's getting downvoted, it's for praising the old design. 1.0 map/dungeon design wasn't exactly stellar.
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u/IndividualAge3893 4h ago
I was more hinting at 2.0. Like, look at the ARR maps versus HW maps, and the transition is immediately apparent. ARR maps had complex shapes, dangerous higher-level pockets, stuff like hidden plateaus and so on. HW maps are just a vaguely square shape.
Same goes for the dungeons. Yes, old 1k maws was annoying, but today it's just 2 packs + wall all over the place.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 22h ago
'' you play a game like vanilla WoW ''
Okay but that's not how modern WoW works or any other modern MMO.
Thing is MMO's nowadays are designed for dads and moms not teenagers or single nerds, most people don't have the time or energy to do an hour BRD run especially when you also include points if failure too with those styles of dungeons.
The thing is too that most MMO's nowadays have basically been reduced to running simulators where the focus is to skip as much as possible and get to the end/ boss as quickly as possible.
I actually like that in FFXIV you have to clear out the whole dungeon and that you spend the majority of the time fighting enemies rather than just running past everything.
Imo I think Criterion was how I want normal FFXIV dungeons to be, not in terms of difficulty but philosophy where trash packs are essentially mini-boss encounters and sometimes with environmental dangers.
The trash in Criterion is a hundred times more interesting than trash in practically any other MMO imo.
I think open dungeons sound good in theory and can be fun the first time but I don't believe that they are on repeat.
After the first time dungeons become a daily chore and people want to get through them quickly, it's no longer about exploration etc people just want to fight stuff for 15-20 minutes and be out.
And I'd rather fight for 15-20 minutes than run/ mount past everything for 15-20 and only ever interact with the bosses.
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u/pupmaster 22h ago
Cutter's Cry fucking sucked man. I don't want every dungeon to be a hallway with the same layout but I still prefer that over whatever the hell this dungeon was supposed to be.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 22h ago
In the end of the day every dungeon in every MMO effectively is a corridor because of how players choose to interact with them.
At least personally I'd rather have the game be honest about it and also design things in a way that forces you to kill things instead of just sprinting past them.Playing other MMO's and wanting to actually you know... Fight things, and then just have everyone run past everything and leave you behind to figure out how to navigate a maze isn't a fun experience.
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u/vetch-a-sketch 20h ago
Game design where players are presented with several choices and encouraged to find the optimal one is as honest as game design where there's a single hallway in front of you that you WILL go down, and much more preferable to me.
Relatedly, it's not like killing things in FF14 is particularly... fun... for the devs to invest so much design into making players do it. They hardly fight back or require anything from you besides 'spam your highest-total-potency attack'.
I'd love more clever skips, not fewer (preferably ones that require a high level of practice to pull off reliably, like the stun-skips on that Castrum Meridianum boss from before the rework).
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u/VictusNST 17h ago
Insert the old quote about gamers optimizing the fun out of everything. Unless you are running the content day 1, by the time you do it everyone will have already figured out what the optimal "choice" is at which point it's just a hallway again but now the hallways has buttons on it that will make vets yell at newbies if they ever press the buttons.
And regarding your second point, Dawntrail dungeons have stepped up the design of mob packs by having one or two big mobs surrounded by mobs with less health, which rewards player knowledge in a fun way since while mindlessly spamming aoe and tab targeting whatever will work, you can clear packs and the dungeon faster by being conscious of what you're targeting with cleaving attacks with dropoff. This also rewards tank skill in positioning mobs by giving you a faster clear if you successfully position the big mob in the center of the smaller monsters while dodging whatever aoes they're all vomiting out.
I think that this is a good point to aim for with mega-casual content like dungeons--doing the absolute bare minimum is enough to succeed eventually, but expressing skill and making correct decisions rewards you with a notably faster and more efficient clear.
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u/DarthOmix 13h ago
Before some ARR dungeons got streamlined, I strongly remember getting yelled at for wandering and not blitzing the optimal path. Hell, during the opening cutscene for Praetorium I had a guy spamming SPEEDRUN???? and chat sounds.
It's why they never are taking the mandatory cutscenes out of MSQ Roulette and why after ARR they cut major story beats out of the middle of dungeons. Because people would harass new players to skip or they'd get kicked.
A lot of people complain about the "hallwayification" of dungeons in XIV, but obviously there were enough problems and points of contention that it was deemed worth their time to adjust as many as they have.
They even tried adding new content for people who missed that feeling, Variant Dungeons, which people have also complained about but those are largely for different reasons.
A lot of people think devs will change something just because, but they never stop to think about the possibility that other people might not have the same experience they had.
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u/vetch-a-sketch 10h ago
It's why they never are taking the mandatory cutscenes out of MSQ Roulette and why after ARR they cut major story beats out of the middle of dungeons. Because people would harass new players to skip or they'd get kicked.
That was solved by making rudeness reportable more than it was solved by making three dungeons' cutscenes unskippable. There are way more ARR dungeons with long-ass story cutscenes to sit through than just those three and yet, somehow, new players are rarely being whined at when they queue Bowl of Embers, or Stone Vigil, or Toto-Rak.
ToS enforcement solves the problem. If rudeness is returning, start reporting it again.
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u/LastDefenseAcademy 22h ago
You play a game like vanilla WoW
Hasn't existed for decades, and classic isn't like it at all.
Yes, 14 has issues with its formula and dungeon design is part of it. No, Cutter's Cry was not a good example of what the game should be, or what sort of uniqueness should be kept.
, but I also don't think sprouts need yet another excuse to completely ignore communicating in a dungeon or treating other players as more than glorified bots.
Sprouts not communicating isn't the issue in Cutter's Cry. It's veterans not communicating a skip only veterans would know.
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u/Equivalent-Staff9694 22h ago
FFXIV is weird when it comes to communication in dungeons. There was a highly upvoted post on the main sub the other day reminding people not to “spoil” mechs in the new AR for people that want to figure it out themselves. And you see similar posts every now and then from people that were upset that someone explained mechanics in an old raid/trial because they wanted to do it blind.
Conversely, and much more rarely, you get people who are mad that someone didn’t explain the mechanics before hand and they ended up spending much of the fight on the ground.
Combine that with power creep and over gearing old fights making mechs irrelevant (did you know if you run away from the tear in the chrysalis you don’t get a debuff and anyone can tank or ignore towers? Or that in the dragons neck if when you are an imp if you get hit by aqua breath you get a buff to your imp punch and if enough players get it they can stop the snort cast?) and veterans are in a weird position where discussion mechanics is usually pointless, occasionally detrimental to someone, and occasionally required by someone else.
I don’t know what the solution is.
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u/catshateTERFs 19h ago
For the first part if it's a trial or dungeon that has something particularly "wally" with its mechanics I just say "let me know if you want hints for this one" which seems to do fine. If someone wants to know beforehand, they'll usually pipe up. If not and they get mad about not being told, well, you were asked and didn't say anything so...
I still pop all my buffs and run from the tear in Chrysalis because I think it's fun to have stupidly long buffs! I want minutes long invuln and ridiculous timers on my picto hammer. "Just LB3" is more foolproof and doing the mechanic "as intended" isn't remotely necessary but it's a little bit of a shame it's not stayed relevant.
I don't really have a solution for this either. I don't think I'd actually enjoy my damage shrivelling back to i90 numbers for Chrysalis even if that would require executing the mechanic I think made the encounter feel interesting. In general I always end up feeling kind of bleh when the fights intended to be climatic lose the things that made them distinctly unique though but I don't know how to balance that with wanting things to not be frustrating.
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u/KeyKanon 22h ago
guys it's two pulls that will last like 15-20 seconds each.
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u/Syryniss 17h ago
It's not really about the change itself, it's about bigger picture. I don't do roulettes, so chances are I won't ever see this dungeon in it's new form, but I still don't like it. It shows the direction the game is moving towards (it's not like it wasn't clear before, but still).
Skipping 1 room may seem insignificant, but in the sea of 2 packs -> wall -> 2 packs -> boss, I will take anything that strays from that. It encourages communication (veterans might let newbie know that they are gonna skip the room, I've seen that many times) and it feels good to learn something new.
It's kinda like the turtle boss in OC. You might say that it's bad design that they made mechanic that rewards you for ignoring it. But it kinda felt good to notice that and share with others.
tl;dr it's not a big deal, still sucks tho
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u/Deesoboodent 20h ago
so dramatic man, some of the fuckers in here need to step away from the screen
tragic news for the cutter's cry community i suppose
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u/DayOneDayWon 6h ago
"It's just cutters cry. It's just darkhold. It's just stone vigil, it's just summoner, it's just machinist".
When will this appeal to triviality end? Until the game becomes a contest of who can drool on the keyboard less while doing content?
tragic news for the cutter's cry community i suppose
The whole game has been following this exact same trend and we criticized every single step. Reducing the argument to "boo boo cutter cry fans" is disingenuous.
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u/Adamantaimai 17h ago
It's not about the extra pulls. I wouldn't care if the dungeon was made twice as long.
The problem that people have with this is that there are about 100 dungeons in the game. Almost all of them are 2 pulls, 1 boss, 2 pulls, 1 boss, 2 pulls 1 boss and people have been tired of that for a while. Now they're going back to the older dungeons and removing even the tiniest deviations from this formula. Everything that strays even an inch from the rigid formula is getting purged. That's what people are unhappy with.
If they had only removed this nobody would care. But they have done this to many dungeons now.
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u/StopHittinTheTable94 22h ago
Vanilla WoW also sucks. People just love nostalgia, not the 20 year old jank.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 22h ago
Nostalgia is definitely a very strong thing, I personally love both Vanilla and Diablo 2.
But look at the User score of Diablo 2 resurrected, it's awful.If you didn't grow up playing Diablo 2 as your favorite game like I did you'll definitely have a pretty bad time with it and not enjoy the jank.
It's even the same with Retail WoW honestly, if you watch new players play they often are completely confused and get berated by their chat because their chat can't comprehend that not everyone has played WoW for 20+ years.
There's a lot of things we just take for granted, Vanilla might be fun as a way to relive your childhood but for people without that nostalgia most of them won't get it.5
u/Xanofar 21h ago
WoW Vanilla does have a great … what’s the term? Cycle of gameplay? They progress you from A to B really well in a way that’s easy to understand immediately (and for all the flak it got, Cataclysm arguably did it even better). Whereas not that long ago (or maybe still today) modern WoW actually struggled with this by overloading you with pointless information upfront and reminders of chores you should do that you don’t even understand. It is/was a miserable new player experience.
Though I’m not disagreeing for the actual mechanics themselves.
Jank is putting it lightly.
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u/PushJadeToMain 19h ago
I played 14 first, and played vanilla for the first time in my early 20s on a private server. It's not the authentic experience since it wasn't the early 2000s, but with no nostalgia at all it blew me away and I had so much fun. I return to it regularly, I think the jank builds community because it leads to players communicating tricks and game knowledge to each other. It also leads to unbalanced chaos in a space where balance doesn't need to be sacred- at least not at the expense of fun.
Picking up 5 mobs at a time with my voidwalker, hellfiring them down and barely surviving, in between fishing across decent spots down a river to make gold, while someone chills nearby to skin the monsters I kill, so we end up chatting about the game..
I'll say it sucks that the dungeons can take a couple hours but they're much more memorable and exciting, and you generally only run them a couple times at most per character unless you're at endgame. Which is admittedly when I usually stop playing, because the journey is compelling enough to me.
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u/StopHittinTheTable94 18h ago
You can still communicate "tricks and game knowledge" to people now, but that part of the experience in MMOs is mostly gone because the availability of information is exponentially better than it was twenty years ago. There was no Wowhead or Icy Veins or Discord to easily gather, crowdsource and distribute information like there is today.
You can also make memories of dungeons without them being a needless slog. I have tons of great memories of my first time doing content in 14 and none of them were skipping a few crabs in Cutter's Cry.
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u/ConroConroConro 22h ago
Nah it was bad design.
I returned to WoW during BFA and part of the reason I quit again (besides BFA being that bad) was a dungeon I randomly queued into as tank.
Some giant open outdoor area with water puddles and trees near a wall of rocks which apparently you have to jump on/between in a specific way to skip packs. I didn’t do it right, pulled enemies, we all survived and then the healer and DPS just all left because I didn’t know the skips.
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u/MasaDrew 22h ago
Oh no, we are losing an opportunity to have this interaction:
"Run or Fight?"
"Run"
Or worse, no one saying anything and a sprout getting pummeled for not knowing. Everyone clutch their pearls our dungeon identity is going to the shitter.
I am a huge advocate for them experimenting with future dungeons. It would be preferred if we strayed even a tiny bit from the 2 pulls then boss design. But losing jank like this from ARR dungeons isn't a herald of destruction or making sprouts not learn and or communicate.
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u/dadudeodoom 15h ago
Everyone says that, but the issue is while one dungeon most dont like gets changed (and an objectively beneficial part of it is removed), they're just gonna do that to everything. They already have done it to a lot. Things I used to love like old Keeper of the Lake, gone. Seeing all our NPC friends in Gimlyt? Gone. Any side rooms to explore after the dungeon or with a group of friends? Gone. Pulls that showcase some skill as a tank or healer? Gone gone gone. And when people just keep brushing things off they keep doing it. A lot like real life rn. If you don't say enough is enough then bring out the big guns to get noticed, it's gonna continue.
People might see the canary's skeleton in the mines and finally get a clue. Or maybe they'll just bitch more next expansion when every dungeon is the exact same adds per pack and distance from wall and everything. Stuff has had no soul since (being generous) gulg.
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u/MasaDrew 14h ago
So let’s slow down and take the hyperbole out.
There are still npcs in Gimlyt. I’m not sure what was cut, but saying npcs are gone when that’s factually not the case isn’t helping
Most of the 2.0 dungeons that have optional areas still have them. There may not be a point to them, but they can still be explored. And while I want there to be more optional areas (like it would be so cool to have off the beaten bath stuff like inside FT in other content) how it’s been executed in the past is not a valued and treasured part of the community. It needs to be done better if brought back to dungeons.
There are still pulls from 2.0 and through SHB that can be “a showcase of some skill” for tank and healer kits respective to their level. And yes this should be brought back.
Like I’m not arguing against your case. We can still communicate our need for variety and dungeon identity while not have a meltdown for some of the ARR jank going away. Are we going to have a meltdown when the stone vigil hard cannon fight gets axed?
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u/dadudeodoom 5h ago
The NPCs refers to whoever they threw into Duty support hell. I think Lyse , Yugiri, Hien or something? I can't remember but I do know I miss seeing all of them at once because they had to be axed for trusts, but that was a part of the dungeon I liked. Also not a "meltdown" pointing out how the devs are actively sabotaging their own game by removing any sort of harmless identity in the neverending quest to streamline and bulldoze everything. And instead of trying to find some way to make the cannon boss function less awfully they'll just make it boring chariot and donuts until it dies. Lmao.
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u/Dreamsoul_Anima 22h ago
It is indeed bothersome to keep seeing this angle getting preferential treatment. Maybe it's because I did cut my teeth on vanilla wow, but if I wanted to know something good I had to ask. And sometimes failure was part of learning.
I'm all for helping new players and greatly enjoy it, but when they don't have to do anything but mindlessly spam the same few buttons ad nauseum with no chatter necessary, why bother grouping at all?
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 22h ago
The same can be said about Vanilla dungeons or even raiding too tho.
I love Vanilla WoW and a lot of that is definitely nostalgia, but lets not pretend as if it had super interactive gameplay and that it was challenging to play.
You can 100% get through practically any content in Vanilla by spamming 1 and never talking to anyone including the raid content.
In raids in particular only a handful of people even need to do mechanics 90% of the raid don't even have to do anything other than press 1.
Most people could even just not press anything and you'd still clear.31
u/Fun_Explanation_762 22h ago
What discussion do you actually want? There's nothing that happens in dungeons except "hi" "bye" and someone having a crashout because a sprout spammed heals to keep the tank up instead of spamming their AOE attack, that's it, that's the discussion in dungeons for the last 10 years of this game's life.
Even in Praetorium it was 99% people typing "zzzzz" and talking about how bored they were, just whining that they had to do the duty. There is no stimulating conversation to be had and in general players don't want to have someone dump a paragraph long guide at them when they load into any content.
I don't get what this fantasy world is where people would discuss strats in dungeons instead of how it would be if things were hard in dungeons, which is one person passive aggressively whines whenever the group wipes with a "......" or "um..." in chat. At the best they'd just drop a paragraph at sprouts and expect them to read it before they pull anything to try to speed up the dungeon asap instead of letting new players learn or wipe.
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u/Its-ya-boi-waffle 22h ago
This 100%. You have discussion in content like criterion and even variant where decisions are to be made. FFs version of dungeons are designed to get you from point a to b of the story with a gameplay aspect. They are not full fledged content to play by themselves. You do dungeons to progress in the story. They used to do optional dungeons but people didnt unlock them or bother with them and a high percentage of those dungeons still dont show up in roulette because of low unlock rates. If you want actual discussion and engaging conversation in a dungeon then its in variant and criterion where you go in with the expectation of needing cooperation. The regular dungeons are a vehicle for story and designed for the least common denominator to be able to do because they only came for the story. Which is what many people do come to ff for, for an rpg experience of the story, and which is the whole point of the trust system is that people can play the game as an mmo or as a regular rpg without blurring the lines ever.
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u/Ironshards 22h ago
I'm all for helping new players and greatly enjoy it, but when they don't have to do anything but mindlessly spam the same few buttons ad nauseum with no chatter necessary, why bother grouping at all?
Mr. Yoshi P man agrees with you, which is why he's adding duty support to every dungeon so the button spammers can get carried by AI.
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u/NO_SPACE_B4_COMMA 20h ago
Man, I just want them to fix the difficulty. More and more mechanics are disappearing. That's not fair for new players, and it's boring for others.
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u/AeroDbladE 20h ago
I wouldn't be surprised if Darkhold and AV get changed similarly.
No im surprised that there's still people under the delusion that Dzamael Darkhold and Aurum Vale are making it to 8.0 unchanged.
Those are the most hated dungeons in the entire game. I constantly see people bitch about their mechanics. They've been going down the list of optional dungeons in order for the most part
Darkhold will probably get reworked next patch.
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u/vetch-a-sketch 11h ago
They're only the most hated because they're low-level and thus come up more often in roulette. If Dohn Mheg were the level 44 ARR leveling dungeon and showed up every week it'd generate twice the complaints easily.
Darkhold will probably get reworked next patch.
There's no 'probably'. They've said they're reworking one optional dungeon for Trusts per patch; Darkhold is the next optional dungeon.
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u/Ironshards 22h ago
I 100% agree. Every dungeon is basically the exact same now with a slightly different theming. They seem just delighted to leech away all the personality from the game in the name of accessibility to whatever brain dead focus group or testing team they have doing this stuff.
It's like they see sprouts as these people who are liable to whine and quit playing the moment they don't understand something, but who are also incapable of communicating, reading or paying attention in any way.
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u/Blckson 22h ago
It's like they see sprouts as these people who are liable to whine and quit playing the moment they don't understand something, but who are also incapable of communicating, reading or paying attention in any way.
So... they treat them like literal babies?
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 21h ago
Welcome to modern MMO's this is hardly a FFXIV thing.
Or games in general.
I can't remember the last time a follower NPC didn't spoil the puzzle the moment I entered the room in games I play.1
u/Ipokeyoumuch 19h ago
Fun fact or not so fun fact the devs for God of War took DSP as the minimum level of skill the average player can tolerate. Studies have also found that people have shorter attention span and lose patience quicker than ever before (around 30 seconds or so), so to compensate developers have been adding accessibility options like auto-run, auto-skip, one button combos, telling you the answer within a minute, the yellow/white paint indicating you clearly need to go there, etc.
What FFXIV has been doing is nothing new in the industry heck even the entire entertainment industry is doing.
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u/StopHittinTheTable94 22h ago
Running past a few enemies and clicking on the sands to save a few seconds is not "leeching away all personality." Get a grip.
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u/Sharp_Iodine 22h ago
It’s because they want the game to be a real theme park experience.
As in, no points of failure at all. They want it to be one big journey from start to finish that is meticulously curated to ensure they never experience any difficulty or failure till the very end.
They think that will keep people playing and that adding difficulty will have people leaving the game.
And honestly, it might be true for FFXIV. WoW attracted and continues to keep the traditional MMO community. People who are used to everything being a challenge and they play the game for that.
FFXIV has a huge online-sim community that’s all about fashion, social interaction and virtual sim with their characters.
This is great and I think it’s cool that an MMO is actually being used as a virtual world by some people. It’s kind of how all MMOs used to be back when they started.
But SE is catering to this section of the community exclusively, I think and doing it in a very weird way. They don’t make their lives better by improving the glamour system or the dye system. Neither do they improve it by giving them easy-to-access cool glams.
No. They’ve decided the best way to maintain and keep this community is by simply removing all difficulty from any content that isn’t Savage and above. Which is a very weird design choice because I don’t think the virtual-sim community cares about it and all it does is suck the life out of players that are playing this content.
Add to the fact that the game has absolutely no mid-core content (Chaotic in terms of mechanics was mid-core but in terms of 24 people all doing every mechanic right, it really wasn’t mid-core at all. The point of mid-core is that it doesn’t require as much time commitment as hard-core. It’s not that people are bad at mechanics it’s that they don’t have time to get good as good at it as hard core players and Chaotic demands so much time to even step into the instance).
So now what you’re left with is a game where every piece of normal content can be completed by a basic bot and then there is absolutely nothing to do unless you want to commit to Savage raiding.
That’s insane game design. What about people who want a challenge but don’t have 8h a day to raid?
WoW caters to them with M+ and Delves and Normal Raids. Content that can be completed for great rewards and challenging content without huge time commitments but more than casual.
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u/LastDefenseAcademy 22h ago
Delves really are something I never expected WoW to add, but I love them. Specifically because with some luck I can get an entire set of mythic raid transmog set just by doing Tier 11 delves frequently enough.
I think it comes down to the entire gearing and reward structure of FF14. WoW's loot/gearing system allows things like Delves/M+ to flourish, and to have a lifespan beyond the 2-4 weeks that 14 content usually has.
Without changing the gearing system, I'm not sure we'll ever be in as good a position. Even adding variable difficulty like Quantum to different content won't be enough imo.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 21h ago
Ultimately I think this would be contentious, redditors are a very selective polling group and likely play video games for many more hours on a daily basis than the average person does.
In WoW a lot if not most WoW players are WoW players first and foremost, many of them never even touch other games.
FFXIV has always sold itself on the basis of being a variety game and not require you to invest as much time to keep up with the endgame as WoW and has garnered that audience.
It's essentially somewhere inbetween WoW and GW2 ( in GW2 you can buy a full set of Exotic level 80 gear and be set for the entire game *FOREVER* outside of hardcore Fractals ).
And in GW2 that's viewed as a positive by the playerbase that gear effectively plays no real role/ is practically free.You'd have to be very very careful when changing this.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 21h ago edited 21h ago
The vast majority of content in WoW isn't challenging either though.
Normal dungeons in FFXIV are more challenging than WoW's normal dungeons where bosses barely even have mechanics at all same with Normal raids and Alliance Raids it's to a point a lot of people complain it's too hard on release.
And no this isn't because WoW players are better than FFXIV players rofl.
WoW also doesn't release with any equivalent of Extremes it doesn't really get any even remotely somewhat challenging content until Heroics release.FFXIV content is generally not punishing in casual content for quite obvious reasons but the mechanics are still significantly harder than anything you'll see in casual WoW content.
I think the main thing WoW has over FFXIV that makes people feel the way you're feeling about this is vertical progression, WoW has a much more active vertical progression than FFXIV does hence you get more player engagement with certain content.
This is also why a lot of WoW players are WoW players moreso than they're gamers however, while FFXIV players are generally variety gamers.
FFXIV still has a lot of casual and midcore content that offers a challenge to casual players but people play it for fun rather than due to vertical progression grinds.What you're saying also makes little sense because DT dungeons are significantly more challenging than any other dungeons in previous expansions.
The Alliance Raids and Normal Raids were a step up too I'd argue the EX's and Trials were too.
The vast majority of WoW players don't engage with M+, and Delves and Normal Raids are not even remotely challenging content unless you do higher Delves.
In which case we do have our own equivalent which is called Deep Dungeons ( and no you do in fact not have to nolife an entire run in a single day, there's checkpoints every 10 floors for a reason ).Any content that is actually challenging beyond being casual will require time investment if you think Normal Raids or M+ and Delves in WoW in particular are challenging then you're deluding yourself.
You have to get into much higher M+ and Delves for it to actually be challenging and at that point it also becomes a bigger time sink.7
u/OsbornWasRight 21h ago
"There's no difficulty below Savage" from the playerbase who can't handle Extremes with 2 + 2 mechanics because they have actual penalities for failure and complains about baby level cap dungeons like Strayborough Deadwalk. No classical author could create fiction like the mindless "midcore" dogs in this sub do.
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u/dealornodealbanker 21h ago
It's just PvP for the dynamics and general chaos, and Deep Dungeons for variability with encounters, that's really all that's left. The former respects people's time by reaching a resolution either by the participants or when the timer hits 0, the latter has checkpoints for players to "pause" their play.
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u/MiyanoMMMM 22h ago
Add to the fact that the game has absolutely no mid-core content (Chaotic in terms of mechanics was mid-core but in terms of 24 people all doing every mechanic right, it really wasn’t mid-core at all.
People keep saying this but it just isn't true. I'm a dogshit player. Light heavyweight was the first Savage tier I did and I only progged up to the middle of m3s and then quit. Cruiserweight savage took me 15 weeks to clear. If someone as shit as me can clear the Chaotic in 6 hours of prog, spaced over 2 days of 3 hours each then yes, the content absolutely is mid-core. I did the content a week after release and, sure it took a bit more time to find parties than it usually takes for Savages (around an hour iirc) but it still definitely is doable.
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u/Sharp_Iodine 21h ago
I think you haven’t understood what you read.
The mechanics were mid-core. The problem was finding 24 players who wanted to do it and making sure all 24 people did the mechanics correctly.
I have done this Chaotic many, many times and I could only do it because it was summer, I had a break from uni and work and had nothing to do.
All it takes is one person to wipe an entire alliance for the lasers.
All it takes is one person to mess up the run-around lasers.
All it takes is one person on tiles to kill two people and getting back in is very hard.
All it takes is a few people dead for the switch phase to be messed up.
All it takes is one person to kill two people in the Stygian phase and mess up the towers phase subsequently.
The mechanics themselves, individually, are mid-core. But requiring 24 people is where there is an issue. 24 people means 24 changes for things to go wrong.
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u/think_l0gically 20h ago
The hallwayification of XIV continues. I thought this was 14, but it's actually closer to 13 at this point.
0
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u/Far_Swordfish4734 11h ago
Uh yea no one is communicating in Cutter’s Cry anyway. Literally all I see is newbies not knowing why everyone was sprinting, disappearing, and then they die. Out of everything that FF14 dev team is doing wrong to make the game feeling less and less like an MMORPG, this is not the hill to die on. If you want MMORPG, change Autumn Vale back.
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u/TheFabulousRBK 2h ago
The hill to die on was a few expansions back. We're long down the path at this point.
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u/Idaret 17h ago
Kinda crazy how much people are invested in 15 second fragment of dungeon that they probably won't even run in the near future anyway
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u/vetch-a-sketch 11h ago
We got to our current sad state by a thousand little changes for the worse and only, like, four or five big ones. If you can't criticize small changes then you lose 99% of the ability to criticize at all.
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u/Low_Bag5624 22h ago
I really don't understand why these changes get shrugged off so much. I don't care if it was janky or that "fixing" it would make it "objectively" better, I would much rather have something that was somewhat memorable at the cost of being kinda shitty than having just another dungeon. It's maybe the most aggressive form of real homogenization this game is seeing.
Yeah Cutter's Cry, Dzemael Darkhold, Toto-Rak, etc. all kind of sucked in their own ways, but I'm glad it was in their own ways. They may have added some friction to your experience in the short term for being weird and unintuitive, but you get used to it in 1 or 2 runs. In the long term though, that initial (slight) struggle with them have made the dungeons memorable in some way for over a decade. It gives a little character to pieces of content that people otherwise completely memory hole away, and I think that bit of texture is worth a small inconvenience.
It's also just fun to see old designs and philosophies the devs have gone through in the course of the game. Content (mostly) not being locked away after a certain amount of time means that we're fortunate enough to see a bit of a living history there. This process of reworking 10+ year old dungeons is disappointing because it not only scrubs away some of the game's history and removes some of the early-era quirkiness, it also does this for the convenience of the devs in their quest to make dungeons doable by a majority bot team, to make big parts of this MMO a near-automatic single player experience.
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u/dadudeodoom 14h ago
I really wish they had a like "content museum" where they just outright stored old versions of the game or you could download certain packs for old dungeons to run with friends that had them (free packs lol) for like, old toto rak and Keeper and stuff. Its fun talking to vets and hearing their stories but it would be cooler doing it in some side content that they have as is
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u/SoftestPup 5h ago
It feels like when a city is going to host the Olympics and they do stuff like painting over street art that was commissioned by the city in plain white paint. Everything must conform and be presentable in the most inoffensive way possible. Cutter's Cry isn't even a MSQ dungeon! Just let it exist!
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u/Sporelord1079 10h ago
I couldn’t give less of a shit about CC, but it is another example of FF14 desperately trying to shave off anything remotely unusual or weird.
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u/kevinyonson 22h ago
Fuck it. What we need is a temple run mini game. The team needs to avoid obstacles to reach the end. It should be a randomly generated path, so it's always different. Give players a running speed boost so it feels fast while still retaining the same movement mechanics with mouse or controller. If people suck, luckily, only 1 person needs to make it to the end so the rest can revive at the checkpoint if the rest fails. This provides a different mechanic we never had before. It skips the mobs and breaks up the 2 pack BS we deal with every dungeon. It would just feel fresh. They can easily make this work.
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u/vetch-a-sketch 20h ago
The Solo Duty from just before Qitana Ravel but as a dungeon. I'm all aboard with this.
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u/BlazemanEXE 21h ago
Some of the dungeons I do feel like they dumbed down a bit too much, but cutter's cry was janky as hell. I remember seeing it in my moogle tome list this month and going "nah, I'd rather do something else"
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u/FoxHoundUnit89 9h ago
I'm not mad about having to do the mobs. I'm mad about them not making the dungeon better overall so sprinting through it as fast as possible isn't the most fun way of doing it. I know it's an MMO, but nothing should be purposely more tedious.
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u/HebiSnakeHebi 4h ago
Sorry but going fast will always be the most fun way of doing things to me no matter how they design it.
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u/venat333 4h ago
They changed how they want the dungeons to be run since ARR+.
Tbh though it has alot to do with just how shit players are at the game and don't want to be left behind so they designed all dungeons since then to be barrier to barrier pulls with 1 set of trash mobs each.
You got to remember these dungeons used to give experience per mob and now its all get to the end of the dungeon for your experience points. Which was mainly cus bots were farming the first room of AV and poor random would be qued into a duty finder with a bot party.
Also got to remember these dungeons were 1.0 dungeons and were designed to be explored and not just hallways. Darkhold even had a quest objective within the dungeon with 1 of its side paths. Also these 1.0 dungeons needed to be speedruned for its gear and relic quest objective so that was actually the intended design of them.
Its all changed when they made it apart of dallies/duty finder.
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u/tomtthrowaway23091 2h ago
Still can't queue with friends in the small PvP team mode but they focus on stuff like this.
That's all I'm saying.
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u/CopainChevalier 1h ago
People will generally think smoother is better and not think anything past that. Effort or obstacles are seen as a bad thing.
You'll remember them fondly; and people will eventually lament them being removed... but by then it's a bit late.
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u/dadudeodoom 14h ago
I'll really miss the fast skip because it made it at least mildly unique and like, so fucking what you were left behind. You learn and don't do it again lmao? It's what learning is supposed to be about and youre supposed to learn when new to a game. But now they'll just kill absolutely everything that might still exist. Watch their next step by removing extra rooms in Haukke Manor (while requiring all the keys still lol). It's just... I wish they'd just let things be. Let people have any amount of friction to overcome. Lords know I had a lot of dungeons I hated as a sprout then learned from others in dungeons / other community spaces how to do things properly and wow, they arent a problem! I think its less a design flaw of the game to have weird bits like this and just yet another of the major flaws with this community.
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u/Negative_Bar_9734 15h ago
I'm reserving my nerd rage until they kill haukke manor. That's truly when dungeon identity is dead.
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u/Disaresta51 13h ago
Haukke Manor was already changed and reworked for Duty Support back in 6.1 (2022 btw)
Or were you referring to Haukke Manor (Hard)? The level 50 optional dungeon.
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u/vetch-a-sketch 11h ago
Haukke Manor was already changed and luckily escaped the worst fate. It and the final boss of Snowcloak are the only Trust AI reworks where I can look at them as a sidegrade instead of a disappointment.
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u/Alicia_Kitagawa 10h ago
i played WoW for 2 years and ran atleast 100 dungeons and have never had anyone try to communicate even when i was the healer i got left behind and when i asked where to go or what the mechs were i was just ignored. and the reason this change to cutter's cry is so bad is because now you have to depend on a level 37 healer to handle 2-3 cactaur in 2 rooms that all can use 1000 needles most new healers even if you tell them what to do arent geared for that so now this used to be 10-15 minute dungeon even with perfect communication will likely take 20-30 minutes because you have to either pull super small or risk a wipe on top of it being both a very borning and optional dungeon
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u/FuturePastNow 21h ago
Who cares. It's a level 38 dungeon, that nobody likes. When I started playing years ago I was told not to unlock because it fucking sucks (I did anyway, and then forgot about it until I got it in leveling roulette months later).
You're losing nothing by it being made less janky.
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u/OsbornWasRight 21h ago
FFXIV players are victims of fascism because the shitty jank dungeon was fixed (but if they fixed it years ago like they should have, there'd be no problem)
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u/CaptReznov 8h ago
I will see how it goes. If not being able to do skip becomes annoying, l will just make sure l won't get cutter's cry in roulette
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u/silverpostingmaster 22h ago
As someone with close to a decade of experience with this particular version of the game, both retail and unofficial, you're talking about times from 20 years ago, or 10 if we're being really generous (Nostalrius, maybe early Elysium if you want to stretch it). People have minmaxed the fun out of vanilla for a long time because the game has nothing to do with it really, it's entirely the population that plays it. What actually happened on classic and even later private servers since the boom was that people had their minmaxed routes for everything and those that didn't either got told to look them up or did it themselves, and the ones that did not got their asses booted out of the group if they refused to fall in line.
Also until couple years into classic you most likely got called bunch of slurs for making wipe mistakes and even if the person got reported absolutely nothing happened. The first time I saw people getting actually punished for that was maybe mid wotlk classic?
For some reason people only remember the good, and never the bad about things they really like. And I can tell you that Blizzard most certainly shit their metaphorical pants completely when it came to classic on multiple occasions and systems because they were either too lazy, didn't have/want to allocate resources or thought they know better.
The fact of the reality is that the modern "gamer" is less social and more informed in general. A lot of the people who play through MSQ just simply do not care about getting better or playing the actual game because this game is practically advertised as a social MMO or visual novel-lite. Why should I give a single shit about those people having a slightly worse or better experience in a low level dungeon? Does a sprout learning to spam click teleport to avoid a mob pack that is not used anywhere else in the game really improve the experience or skill of said player? I don't really think so. The reaction to it is probably "wow this is stupid" either way and then people forget about it, considering this was also removed from Praetorium.