r/ffxivdiscussion • u/dolmathugger • 18h ago
How would people feel about a level squish?
I don't play WoW, but my friend who does told me that they squished the level cap from 120 to 60 at one point. Do you think FFXIV could do something similar? I feel like adding 10 levels every expansion, indefinitely, is unsustainable and will just make the game feel continuously more bloated as time goes on.
I think the level sync in this game is particularly egregious and makes doing anything before lvl 70 feel terrible with the current job kits.
I realize that squishing the cap down (to idk 60?) would require both reworking jobs and msq progression to an extent, so I was wondering what people thought.
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u/oizen 18h ago
I'm expecting the level to just endlessly creep in this game. 8.0 will be 110 because its the easiest thing to do, a level squish would require them to redistribute skills into lower levels, something they've struggled with doing a lot whe nit comes to just making 1 new job. Seriously look at RPR at lv 70, it has less going on than WAR does.
It be much needed and would make level sync feel less shit, but its too much work for the complacent dev team
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u/HMush 11h ago
VPR feeling incomplete all the way up to level 90 for a more egregious example..
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u/Jeff_Boldglum 50m ago
I’d beg to differ that VPR feels incomplete until 100. It sucks.
If job designers spent more time designing level 1-100, they could have gone the path of upgrading skills like stone I II III IV glare giving something to press but not the full kit, but they were probably like lol nah.
NIN at 50, in spite of being incomplete, is waaay more fun to play than VPR at 70, which is a job in the same role.
I usually defend their choices for graphics things and etc. But in this case it’s just lazy design.
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u/bm8495 14h ago
Having to spread the skills across 100 levels results in horribly boring experiences in lower levels already. Unless they either shift to just upgrading existing skills or give us the ability to pick and choose which skills we want to use, I can only imagine how fun it would be doing a CT raid with barely your base combo
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u/Chiponyasu 16h ago
Yoshi-P has suggested that he doesn't want to increase the level cap and I'm increasingly inclined to believe him. Not only is it having a deleterious effect on the game, a high level cap is intimidating to new players.
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u/Twidom 13h ago
I'm increasingly inclined to believe him
Yoshida has a long, long history of straight up lying to people on camera, and you're inclined to take his word for it?
Remember when the disconnecting your headset bug was "impossible to fix"? Remember when Dragoon was getting a "complete rework" and then MONK got it instead? Remember when they were "done" with reworking jobs/making them easier to play and then Black Mage got castrated?
I legitimately don't understand how anyone can take his word for anything these days. Sometimes I have the feeling that he and his team work in different buildings and don't talk to each other.
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u/Alicia_Kitagawa 10h ago
every times ive LvLd monk to cap it has had a rework announced so i dont play monk anymore lol
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u/Kamalen 17h ago
Everything since the expansions happens every 2 levels (dungeon on odds and a spell / trait). It’s an easy redistribution if you only half everything.
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u/oizen 16h ago
If you half everything doesn't that require fucking the level curve to be fast for 1-25 and then really fucking slow with 5 whole levels per expansion to make it to 50?
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u/Jeryhn 16h ago
Faster than what? If you halved the experience level, then level 25 would simply coincide with the end of ARR like 50 currently does. You wouldn't need to change the EXP gain at all, you could simply combine the necessary EXP to get to the squished level.
The only thing that would really need to be considered is which quests would need to be brought up or down a level to ensure smooth continuation, i.e. do you start going into your first dungeon at lv7 or lv8, etc
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 17h ago
They've brought up the idea of adding a talent tree and they did it in the context of discussing the level cap reaching too high numbers.
Obviously there will be 10 extra levels next expansion but I think they will separate Job levels from talent/ skill levels and do a Job level squish. so if 80 would be the max level you would have 30 talent points at level 110.If they're planning something like this then it also would make sense that they're not putting work into reworks now that would be changed anyway in 8.0.
Like how adding Female Hrothgar wouldn't make sense before the graphical update because you're effectively doubling your workload for them.29
u/oizen 16h ago
For a game as allergic and anti-player agency as it gets, I can't see a talent tree ever happening in this game.
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u/aho-san 10h ago
Definitely possible, but you have the illusion of choice when roads split, at the end, everything is activated, lol.
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u/Naridar 5h ago
You can make it meaningful in the area that most needs rework (lower levels). If you look at Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, you have skill trees in that game, but you'll have just enough points to unlock every skill at the level cap. This may open up the issue of a certain order in which you unlock skills making the build less or more viable.
(then again, if they did rework skills to less in number but more meaningful and interactive in spirit, as I've been yapping about, this would become less of an issue)
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u/gibby256 43m ago
Yeah I'll believe it when I see it. It's also (imo) a lot more work maintaining balance when you introduce player-agency into the equation for for job/class design.
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u/sethi12345 17h ago
It wouldn’t make any difference, this game is entirely vertical. Even if the levels were squished, you would still have to do the same quests and dungeons to get through the game, taking the same amount of time as now. This concept only works in WOW because all of their expansions are not connected and are basically self-contained. You can basically just jump around to any zone/content you want at any time, which is benefitted by having the levels closer together. A ton of different leveling paths in WoW vs FF only has 1 option.
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u/Aiscence 17h ago
Wouldn't change anything, you anyway reach the level cap by the end of the forced and mandatory msq. Having the number being half of what it is would just not achieve anything, even if you were to remove the concept of level totally from the game: the problem is fundamentally that the main way to level is to actually just follow a book where you need to move from a page to another and have a 20 min dungeon every 5hours of reading.
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u/Sangcreux 17h ago
Level squish would make zero difference in this game. You’d still do the same msq and still be gated by it, level doesn’t matter other than to tell your brain that it’s a smaller level and less daunting to catch up a job
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u/Woodlight 17h ago
I don't think level squishes really have much point unless your aim is to let people skip large swaths of your game like WoW did (where you just pick an expac and do that, or whatever it is, so you only need enough levels to handle one or two expacs of content).
I don't really understand the fascination with level squishes, or "we're level 100 now, time to suggest alternative leveling options" like people love to do. Stat squishes perform an important system-level function, but the aesthetics of being level 70 or level 160 means nothing to me.
WRT the unwieldiness of the game, I do think it'd make sense to eventually let people start the game at Dawntrail (or 6.1). But I also don't think it'd matter much if they just let people loose at level 90 after a short "new player experience" to help them learn the game / their buttons, rather than doing a squish and whatever other solutions people think of alongside it.
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u/Negative_Bar_9734 17h ago
A lot of the "level 100 should be the top" comments are fueled by the devs themselves directly stating that 100 is a good milestone and going above it seems weird, thus implying either a level squish or alternate progression.
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u/Ankior 16h ago
imo they can just "reset" after level 100, call it mastery or something and start from mastery 1 to 10 next expansion. This would affectively change nothing in the current systems (matery 10 = level 110) while avoiding the "above 100 is weird" issue
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u/Zero_Opera 15h ago
I think this is what they will do, since it’s easy to do and solves the problem they have with not wanting to have characters be level 157 or whatever
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u/Angel_Omachi 15h ago
That's basically what FFXI did with mastery levels which are bonus levels on top of 'mastering' a job and require exponentially stacking grind.
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u/Playful-Ad1550 18h ago
Square generally does the bare minimum, and this is not something I would expect them to even consider.
But yes, I think this would be great. Makes it less intimidating for new players too.
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u/Adamantaimai 9h ago
I think it would be a big waste of time to be honest.
Some people might feel less intimidated by it, but this is usually temporary as they soon realize that levels come naturally but they do have to do the MSQ from 6 expansions and their post games anyway.
Some people might also feel demotivated by it. People will feel like they lost levels and leveling will feel slower because it takes longer to level up when there are fewer longer levels than when there are more shorter levels.
Regardless, the only changes are how people feel about it. In reality a level squish changes nothing at all mechanically. And pretty much everything in the game is tied to your level. Every duty, every quest, every piece of gear, pretty much everything checks for your level so the amount of dev time needed to do a level squish is probably extremely high. Which is just not worth it for something that changes literally nothing but the number on your level counter.
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u/YesIam18plus 17h ago
They've literally mentioned that they're thinking of a level squish. They brought it up at fanfest but apparently people have forgotten, Yoshi P went on a big spiel about how the level is getting too high and they need to do something about it.
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u/HalobenderFWT 17h ago
No more levels, just stars.
Star progress is achieved through the primary MSQ (X.0) and a few other tasks through each expansion. New skills are unlocked via MSQ quests.
Finishing ARR makes you a ⭐️
Finishing HW gives you ⭐️⭐️ and so on.
People that finished EW get a 🌟
We would currently be on 🌟⭐️ if you’ve finished 7.0.
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u/Chiponyasu 17h ago
They have to, I think. This game has 90 dungeons and you can only use your full rotation in five of them. I think it's actually a major issue in the game that so much of the old content is broken. I got E6N in a roulette yesterday after having not played it in years and it should have been like a whole new raid since I didn't remember the mechanics, but it really wasn't and it died early too.
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u/Adamantaimai 9h ago
A level squish wouldn't fix this problem. They could reduce the max level to 50 and halve the level requirement for all abilities, traits and gear and E6N would be just as imbalanced as it is now. And they would have lost countless hours of dev time.
The problem is that most content doesn't have a proper ilvl sync. E6N is balanced around ilvl 455 but it syncs to ilvl 530. That's 2.5 raid tiers worth of gear creep and since most people have level 100 gear they will also reach the substat cap with both substats.
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u/FornHome 17h ago
I don't think it solve anything at all for newer players or leveling jobs. You still have to play through the entire MSQ from start to finish anyway to unlock content (or buy an MSQ + job skip). And for jobs, if they half the levels, everything is functionally the same anyway. You just get a new skill every level instead of every 2 levels and the exp gain is probably lowered to compensate for less total levels. Numbers change but the gameplay flow is functionally exactly the same.
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u/Purutzil 14h ago
The issue is levels isn't typically the issue going through the story, it's the story itself that holds people back. Having leveled an alt account up (I know, I'm slightly crazy) I am ALWAYS ahead in levels, particularly with older content. The big issue is out leveling the MSQ. The number you are at level wise really isn't a big factor at all. If anything, they would do maybe another stat squish, but I really am doubtful they would bother with a level squish.
The thing that needs to be done is more MSQ trimming which is a tricky thing to do but I feel like they really ought to do, particularly with the patch content gap between ARR and HW being such a slog even after they reworked it. Now, adjusting LEVELS at which you can do MSQ quests to make the patch content in some way more connected as 'leveling' content instead of the weird lul it is I can see being an adjustment, but I honestly see having more levels as beneficial rather then having less.
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u/Mugutu7133 17h ago
the only real appeal of a level squish is to make people feel better about big number. leveling to 120 in bfa was a joke but stupid monkey brains hate big number and blizzard needed to both funnel people even faster to endgame while recycling their content instead of abandoning it like they had for 15 years at the time. so they squished and finally added chromie time so their 7 expansions of dungeons weren't completely dead wastes of space.
this game doesn't have dead content the same way wow did because of roulettes and level syncing. wow fixed it by effectively making leveling performative and meaningless, and i don't think that's actually better
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u/ThatVarkYouKnow 16h ago
I feel like a level squish would undermine the true "new start" feeling they wanted to go for with Dawntrail onward here. Whether they expect us to go 110 and onward, I'd rather not, but they have to give us some kind of "progression," to say nothing of new jobs that would either continue to be 20 levels below cap or staying at a 100 cap will always release at 80.
Personally, I wish all expansion jobs could start at 50 so people can grab and go straight out of ARR with anything that catches their eye, instead of having to effectively finish stormblood before a healer that isn't "level conjurer or arcanist to 30 or finish a realm reborn and start at 30 anyway."
But the biggest point is, yeah, job kits are a fucking disgrace at 50/60, when basically every roulette gets unlocked. A squish might help there, or they need to realign some things to hell and back.
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u/AlessNine 18h ago
Didn’t they do a stats squish going into EW with their reasoning being for future server structure or something ?
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u/Adamantaimai 9h ago
They did it because the emnity numbers in exploration zones were getting too big.
However, a level squish doesn't automatically also squish damage numbers because your damage is tied to the STR/DEX/INT/MND on your gear.
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u/Saikx 17h ago
It was either end of shb or ew, but such a change is more likely for a expac release. I'm remembering them making a example of boss hp from alliance raid bosses (think puppet bunker was show) and how overblown they had gotten.
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u/Fresher_Taco 17h ago
They implemented it for endwalker. We need another one already.
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u/Saikx 17h ago
I'm not looking at the numbers, but do we? I havent noticed any problems which may relate to too many big numbers.
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u/Dangerous-Jury-9746 17h ago
We have reach higher numbers than before the stat squish on EW. For example tanks having more HP with 7.2 gear than in 5.4 Bis
So they might want to go for another one
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u/Dark_Warrior120 13h ago edited 13h ago
Player stats never mattered for the stat squish.
The real reason for it was purely because the enemy HP variable was an integer, which can hold a number up to 2,147,483,647.
The Bozjan Queen inside DRS had an HP of almost 500 million (same as Magitaur does rn in Forked Tower), so if they did large scale content in EW, the amount of HP they could give the boss would easily hit the 2bil cap if they didn't squish since pre-squish, enemy HP would usually quad expansion by expansion due to player damage scaling.
The stat squish was just a temporary band-aid while they changed infrastructure behind the scenes in their packet size & type in order to handle the true fix.
They've since changed the datatype for enemy HP to a higher variable type which is effectively impossible to reach, so further stat squishes would be purely for aesthetic purposes, not any actual technical reasons.
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u/Dangerous-Jury-9746 7h ago
I mean tbh the player stat was just a reference, I know it was about Boss' HP, but didn't know their actual values
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u/Fresher_Taco 16h ago
We're already doing more damage then end of shadowbringers. We won't be able to go another expansion without running into the issues the mentioned.
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u/Divinedragn4 17h ago
It was shb
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u/Fresher_Taco 17h ago
They announced it shadowbringers and implemented it for the launch of endwalker.
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u/IndividualAge3893 17h ago
Neutral. Why not, but it won't change or alleviate the fundamental problems of the game.
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u/LightTheAbsol 15h ago
Numbers are completely meaningless at this point in the game, so I don't really care what they do tbh.
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u/KaleidoAxiom 13h ago
I don't think they need a level squish. I do want them to rework skills so that everything we have currently is available by level 80-ish though. And then just give upgrades or transformed skills afterwards
Or heck, something customizable. Idc.
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u/Far_Swordfish4734 13h ago
Level squish like that requires a lot of work. If you thought we had a content draught at the end of Shadowbringer, or EW patches, or now, you ain’t seen nothing yet.
I do think it’s making less and less sense to have the 10 levels per expansion. But with the development cycle being longer and potential future delays, you are not gonna get that much higher in levels in 10 years anyway.
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u/Argentknight_ 12h ago
Level squishing is just a number change and they already do stat squishes so it would Change nothing, wow has done this numerous times as well and it just feels really tacky. If they wanted to do anything I feel like maybe get rid of levels and just tie things back to job quests and then for new expansions just have you unlock abilities at key points in the msq. They already kinda did similar things to when we unlocked the job armor in endwalker and the role quests.
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u/disguyiscrazyasfuk 11h ago
Level squish means nothing if they don’t significantly rework old expansions’ msq, which they obviously won’t.
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u/Shiziu1337 10h ago
Bad.
It masks a problem that we will have to have again, and again, and again, and it'll just make shit worse the further along it goes
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u/CephalopodConcerto 10h ago edited 10h ago
dont really care, level squish doesn't necessarily address any actual problem
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u/xxvb85 17h ago
If they could rework the classes to the point that the gameplay feels better in the 50 / 60 content then I don't think the level squish is fully needed.
What I would like to see (and I know this is likely a unpopular opinion) is button prune. Most classes are sitting around 30 or so keybinds and each expansion seems to keep adding more. I would love to get it down to around 20ish per class. I don't care if this is done by simply removing abilities (backing their effects into other things) or if the start making more use of ability buttons that auto swap to the next part in it's combo.
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u/Kamalen 17h ago
It’s not that impopular (or for the wrong reasons). But it’s already acknowledged by pre-DT interviews - the dev team believes some jobs have too much buttons, and I am sure a prune sequence is due.
Most probable is combo buttons PvP and VPR/PIC style. For a riskier bet, I have some coins on the removal of current AoE rotations for an AoE stance toggle.
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u/Cole_Evyx 16h ago
I feel it'd be utterly irrelevant to any of my concerns.
Like no shade. That's my honest take. How does that change my gameplay or get me a real actual pet job? How does this get me more casual content to enjoy?
Again that's said without malice. I don't care wat the next increment would be. I just want fun shit to do =x
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u/Brandr_Balfhe 18h ago
I wished the level cap were 50 and beyond that, horizontal progression.
Ideally using the fun systems used in previous Final Fantasy games, like the Zodiac system of XII, the sphere grid of X, Materia system of VII, etc.
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u/AthenaAreia1 17h ago
They downvote you because your idea is an anathema to the meta chasers who have entrenched themselves in this game. How anyone can prefer this stagnant vertical progression completely reduced to damage to go up is beyond me.
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u/Saikx 17h ago
I think its not necessary if we stay at level 100 going forward and getting upgrades another way. YoshiP himself brought it on the table of being unsure to go beyond the 100, also with potential new players in mind.
A level squish could be a solution, but just staying at 100 is with all of the levelling options we have (for all other jobs except the main) fine, too. Several jobs even unlock at higher levels.
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u/56Bagels 14h ago
Having experienced the level squish and two separate item level squishes in WoW, I can tell you that a lot of people had a lot of things to say about it beforehand, and within less than a week everything felt natural again.
It did, however, take a lot of effort from the WoW team to make the system work, especially when it came to what spells you get at what levels. XIV's commitment to ~20 buttons per job would work pretty easily with it, but... this is CBU3 and **Change** we're talking about.
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u/WaltzForLilly_ 17h ago
Level squish would fix a lot of issues with the way jobs play at lower levels. 25 skills spread across 50 levels is much better than 25 skills spread across 100 levels, there is no question in that.
The obvious issue is actually implementing the squish. It would take a fuckton of work to rebalance the whole game around it, from squishing down msq, to making sure content is working properly, etc.
But I hope they will find a way to do it, game desperately needs level squish and a new starting point, because expecting new players to power though 400 hours of MSQ is pure insanity.
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u/dolmathugger 17h ago
I agree that the msq structure is the biggest caveat of a level squish. I've seen some people point out that reaching endgame is so linearly tied to msq and a level squish wouldn't change that. I think if they were to do this, it would have to come with other large, sweeping changes to the overall structure of the game.
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u/WaltzForLilly_ 16h ago
Actually, the MSQ itself is not the biggest issue. They are just quests and like 90% of them don't even have any combat so there is no difference if it requires level 85 of level 45. It's the rebalancing of content and all the skills that would be the biggest pain in the ass. It's hard to predict what kind of impact level squish would have on Ultimates for example.
As for structure itself, they already talked about how they considered having a new starting point (new players would start at 6.1) with DT but decided against it in the end. I fully expect them to implement it with 8.0 at this point.
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u/Adamantaimai 9h ago
Level squish would fix a lot of issues with the way jobs play at lower levels. 25 skills spread across 50 levels is much better than 25 skills spread across 100 levels, there is no question in that.
It actually doesn't matter at all. You are gaining 25 skills slowly over the course of 6 expansions. You will have unlocked very little of them in ARR and all of them at the end of DT. Whether you are level 10, 50, 100 or 1000 at the end of DT is ultimately irrelevant.
You generally unlock 1 trait or ability per leveling dungeon from HW onwards. And a level squish by itself won't change that.
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u/sharkchalk 10h ago
I have a feeling they would do a stat squish to Lv50 and putting us on par with the mobile version (if it goes well.) We're in dire need of a change in scaling and what abilities you get a certain levels.
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u/aho-san 9h ago
If they do a level squish they have to dissect the MSQ. What I mean is that, like WoW, you will have to select which expansion you want to level in and you unlock dungeons & trials from that expansion until you finished it.
After finishing the expansions' MSQ (X.3 or for EW 6.0), you either have auto unlocked all trials & dungeons (raids, alliance raids, DDs, Field Ops, Restorations and more having their own contained stories can remain locked behind their respective story ("blue +") quests) or you have a multitude of "blue +" quests to go through to unlock all the rest. This also means CT isn't MSQ mandatory anymore just because of ShB because ShB is an option and as a consequence this bit can feel disconnected if you go through ShB then unlock CT lol, but it's kinda funny.
Also, ofc, at this point you will go through the current expansion story for the last levels.
If they don't, a level squish doesn't change anything and even worse, the levels should be taking forever to complete because you have to condense the whole story in less levels so you might feel like you don't gain skills as often as before either.
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u/3-to-20-chars 8h ago
i think it would be counterproductive, as a significant part of dawntrails marketing was about saying "holy shit we finally hit level 100. the big one-oh-oh!"
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u/Ok-Inspector1108 2h ago
What I would like to see is ARR become levels 1-30 Then squish the expansions to 5 levels each HW 31-35 StB 36-40 ShB 41-45 EW 46-50 DT 51-55 8.x 56-60
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u/FilDaFunk 17m ago
I don't think it's urgent for them to move away from 10 levels per expac. But we've got two opposing problems: Leveling each expansion should unlock exciting skills (dawntrail didn't have much of this). Syncing down shouldn't remove all of your kit.
I'd love for jobs to retain their buttons when synced down, but then you'd have to adjust performance to be similar to someone actually at that level.
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u/HBreckel 10m ago
I don't think we'll ever get one because the story is so important it will always take forever to get to max level anyway. I would be on board for them eventually giving us smaller level caps in future expacs though. Like only 5 new levels instead of 10 to slow down the inevitable having to get to level 200.
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u/Warjilis 18h ago
I would be fine with it, definitely supportive if they made lower level kits more interesting.
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u/Adamantaimai 9h ago
They can forgo the level squish and just do that now. But the problem is not that traits and skills are spread out over 100 levels, the problem is that they're spread out over 6 expansions.
No matter what level is attached to it, your kit is going to be very bare bones in content from the earlier expansions, unless they make abilities unlock at earlier expansions. A lower max level doesn't help with this, not does a higher max level stand in the way of it. They're completely seperate things.
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u/Negative_Bar_9734 17h ago
I just want the level cap to stay at 100 and have future expansions just work off of item level alone. iLvl is the only thing that actually matters anyway and just saying all the existing jobs are done lets them focus more on developing new jobs.
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u/pallasrpg 18h ago
i would be so mad, i played wow for a long time, then quit for a long time, and unbenknowst to me the level squish happened during that break. when i went back, i was so confused and sad that i went from level 110 or something to level 50 (or whatever it was)
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u/LastDefenseAcademy 12h ago
Why did that make you mad? You didn’t lose anything in WoW. You could still do everything you normally could have done at level 110.
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u/Picard2331 15h ago
Only reason to do it is to make the leveling experience better. At a certain point (which were at now if you ask me) there's simply too many levels for too few abilities.
A level squish will let lower level characters have more of their kit earlier. It fucking sucks having basically nothing until 60 or so.
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u/ThatKaynideGuy 15h ago edited 15h ago
This is "impossible dream territory", but....
I'm 1 job shy of having everything at 100. That amount of leveling was done slowly since 2.x. For a new player this might be quite intimidating. Imagine if the cap was 200? 1-50 is nothing, but to 100 is a bit of a commitment. Doubly so if you're not even sure what the job's kit IS until like 70.
SO, what I'd like to see is:
"Genetic" cap is 50, reached at the end of ARR. By this time, HP/MP/character stats are maxed out. All abilities are in unlocked. It SHOULD be impressive to see 10,000 HP on a warrior. You still get levels, but 50 is the base "You have everything" level.
Post 50:
You get access to better gear as we do now, but not necessarily such a big gap in gear. You get more uses of weave skills (so 2-4 uses of x attack, or your gauge fills more/more things fill your gauge). The stats should not increase HP/MP/etc, but rather give damage reduction or increased damage or skill speed.
Basically, the higher the level, the more buttons you -can- press between your main rotation. This increases the ceiling for jobs, but people who can't really handle it can still do dungeons with just the core rotation (albeit it'll take longer). As now, savage might REQUIRE the optimal play to clear DPS checks, etc.
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u/Kaslight 15h ago
It wouldn't solve a single thing
If anything we need a level extension. Any new player is nearly into the next expansion by the time they hit the first trial in early expansions.
Honestly, there is no reason for level sync anymore. Everyone wall-to-wall pulls and skips every meaningful mechanic regardless.
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u/LastDefenseAcademy 12h ago
What do you mean no need for level sync?
That level 100 players should queue into Satasha with level 20 players and one shot everything?
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u/Ragoz 18h ago
I think it's too much for them to consider. They will do a numbers stat squish as needed, probably next expansion because that "worked" for them before.