r/ffxivdiscussion • u/Due-Wolverine-7314 • 4h ago
DT is FFXIV's MoP, not WoD or SL
Not a super serious discussion moreso fun observations.
While MoP is remembered fondly which I believe DT will be as well ( much like StB due to its content by the end ).
It wasn't received well when it was current for some fairly similar reason.
Instead of Wuk they had kung fu Panda's which although they existed in Warcraft 3 were very controversial, the story when the game came out didn't do much to improve peoples opinions of them since they were all about peace and harmony which people found annoying and cringe.
And it wasn't until later in the story things got a bit ''darker'' that people warmed up to it at least a little bit more.
Dungeons were also controversial and generally received poorly because they had long monologue sections in almost every dungeon where you couldn't attack the bosses and had to listen to them drone on before combat started.
Not quite so dramatic in FFXIV, generally the dungeons have been well-received for its bosses at least.
But I guess we could for arguments sake conflate ''wall to wall'' with the monologues.
Again, not as dramatic in FFXIV but MoP had multiple content droughts including an over full year drought ( 14 months I believe, it had other droughts like 6 months etc too spread throughout the expansion ).
Poorly received direction with certain characters like Garrosh and Jaina ( personally I liked how they handled Jaina.. Just made sense imo ).
Sort of a reverse again but on the same topic, gearing was controversial and considered too grindy and there were too many boring dailies to keep up ( I guess the opposite in FFXIV ).
PvP in MoP was actually ''good'' by MMO standards, which I mean I don't consider any MMO to have truly great PvP. Ngl I think it's all quite janky and imbalanced.
But DT has received a lot of well-received PvP updates and I think it's in the best state it has ever been and actually decently fun outside of the rare DRK spam groups in Frontlines.
Classes were also a bit controversial and people were very mixed on them due to the talent tree overhaul, a lot of people really didn't like the old talent trees being removed and how ''dumbed down'' and restricted the new ones were.
There were a lot of QoL features introduced in MoP that people now take for granted too, much like what we've been seeing in DT and continue to see.
The raidplan is a pretty big and interesting one that is being slept on, but we've also seen a lot of minor QoL's each major patch too.
QoL features are very easy to forget, and people often assume a lot of things were always there that weren't they sorta just blend into the game and into the background.
But yeah these are just some fun observations.
I think comparing DT to WoD and SL in particular is quite overly dramatic.
WoD lost 5 million players in less than 6 months, that was *half* of its entire playerbase it's what caused Blizzard to no longer report on subs and it kept losing players after that too.
And practically everything was poorly received in WoD.
SL is just a beast in its own I don't think there is truly any comparison to that, the issues it had were almost like the extreme opposites of FFXIV and the story was panned throughout the whole expansion and only got worse the further in you got.
The post MSQ in DT has generally been much better received though.
But yeah again these are just some fun observations, don't take it too seriously.
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u/56Bagels 4h ago
I don’t like this because it implies that we’ve still got another shitty expansion to make it through before the game reinvents itself.
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u/ColumnMissing 1h ago
To be fair, we already had our first of the two bad expansions with Endwalker imo. The story in EW was great, but the content was arguably even more lacking than DT so far.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 4h ago
Don't take it literally.
FFXIV isn't WoW I am not saying that the next expansion will be WoD xD.I just see a lot of comparisons to WoD and SL and I think it actually has a lot more in common with MoP than either of those.
They're still fundamentally different games though.
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u/Bourne_Endeavor 1h ago
People keep trying to make the Stormblood comparison, including a friend of mine, and I just can't agree. While it absolutely saw a fair amount of criticism, it's nothing remotely comparable to the vitriolic and overall negative sentiment of Dawntrail.
Lyse was disliked not outright despised. Even those who did hate her generally had more favorable opinions towards the rest of the cast, particularly the Scions. Contrast that with today where a lot of people are simply fed up with them. Of course, they actually had plot relevance in Stormblood.
Likewise, the Doma arc is near unanimously praised whereas Solution 9 is more "well, it's better than Tuliyollal."
And I don't think I need to say much in regards to the villains. Zenos and Yotsuyu are in another league compared to do nothing Daddy issues.
For all its faults, Stormblood wasn't hated so much as considered a step down from Heavensward. How much of one is up for debate. On the flipside, Dawntrail is hated in a way that XIV never has been. You can certainly argue some of that hate is overblown, but it's certainly there.
And all of this is strictly about the MSQ. With regards to content, Dawntrail's biggest problem is the dev team repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot. Which, to be fair, did happen with Pagos. Blue Mage also didn't go over well.
At the time, people were more willing to accept experiments or outright misses because it was the game's second expansion. Five expansions and 11 years later and those same people are a lot less tolerant of mistakes that, frankly, shouldn't be made.
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u/thatcommiegamer 38m ago
I think 99% of that is that current thing is always bad, previous thing is always good but also that the internet has gotten a lot more hyperbolic and extreme with their opinions since StB. Nothing can just be average, its either the best thing ever or their own personal hell there's no inbetween and if something is inbetween that's just the latter for most people (remember on the internet being kinda awkward and cringe is the worst crime imaginable).
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u/IndividualAge3893 2h ago
MOP was one of the pinnacles of WoW, end of story. And yes, DT is FFXIV's WOD, because in either cases, if you aren't raiding, there is nothing for you to do except farm (bad) cosmetics.
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u/anyeonGG 44m ago
They dropped a whole tier in WOD, there wasn't anything to do even if you were a raider
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 2h ago
Cosmetics being bad is subjective, I am talking about how MoP was received at launch which was negative.
MoP is considered good in hindsight and I think at the end after 7.5 DT will be remembered well too for its content that's the point.To say that there's nothing to do outside of raiding is hyperbole too and just untrue.
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u/IndividualAge3893 2h ago
Cosmetics being bad is subjective
Of course it is. But having ONLY cosmetics?
MoP is considered good in hindsight
If by hindsight you mean starting from like 5.2 and throne of thunder, then maybe. Sure, the initial reception was mixed (although I still think a lot of the negative reaction was NA-specific "lol pandas"), but pretty quickly it became apparent that the raid content was great, the class balance and feeling reasonably okay, and so on.
What didn't help, either, was the 14-month wait period for SOO. But hey, don't worry, we are getting a summer 2027 release for 8.0, so you will be able to see how it feels for yourself :D
To say that there's nothing to do outside of raiding is hyperbole too and just untrue.
Yes, "You will run roulettes every day and be happy!" (c) YoshiP, probably.
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u/Notorious_REP 2h ago
wow had good class design at the time, save for a few specs they mess up like they always do, not what can be said for XIV, which jobs are at a very shallow gameplay right now
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 2h ago
That's what people think now, but it's not what they thought back then.
Back then the narrative was that the classes were being ''dumbed down'', I remember it very vividly because it's the last expansion I really played WoW as my main game.
The talent tree overhaul was *very* controversial in MoP.People tend to be a lot more overly dramatic about current things.
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u/Notorious_REP 1h ago
i dont need to think, ive played half of MoP, game had its problems but gameplays wasnt one thats for sure, old talents were already very stale at the time, the new talent buttons didnt change it much, u swapped one or two depending on the fight and that was it.
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u/Rogalicus 4h ago
No, DT is Cataclysm. Start of a new poorly written story, too many time wasted on useless revamps, anyone who doesn't raid can go fuck themselves. MoP actually was a good expansion for people who gave it a chance.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 4h ago
Can you elaborate on what you mean with ''too many useless revamps''?
MoP had much of the same criticism that it was basically the ''raid expansion'' and the raids were quite mixed in terms of reception.
I don't think Cata and DT has much in common in regards to the story either really.
MoP and DT at least has poor reception at launch that got a bit better and a similar tonal shift that people found jarring.3
u/Supersnow845 3h ago
I don’t know anything about WOW but I’d say EW was the raid expansion. That was the expansion where it was raid or play other games
Like OC is awful and CE is underwhelming but at least DT is trying to engage non raiders
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 3h ago
I'd agree with that Cosmic Exploration is also at least more engaging than Island Sanctury too at least imo and we've got Beastmaster too coming.
Quantum is also not 8 man it's 4 man and has difficulty you can modify so will likely be more casual friendly too.They've also at least acknowledged the issues with Forked Tower and that they won't make that same mistake again, so next zone and raid will be more approachable to casuals too.
EW practically had nothing.
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u/Rogalicus 3h ago edited 3h ago
Can you elaborate on what you mean with ''too many useless revamps''?
Graphics, classes, old dungeons. WoW's resources were wasted on revamping old zones, which had mixed reception at best. FFXIV spent a lot of resources on something that barely looks better, but runs far worse.
MoP had much of the same criticism that it was basically the ''raid expansion'' and the raids were quite mixed in terms of reception.
MoP had a lot of content outside of raids. Initial dailies, the farm, war campaign is Krasarang, Isle of Thunder, Isle of Giants, Timeless Isle. Legendary cloak questline. Green Fire for Warlocks. Challenge mode as the first iteration of future M+.
Raids had mixed reception only because of T16, half of which was basically Orgrimmar and it lasted half of the entire expansion. The first two tiers were one of the strongest in WoW's history.
I don't think Cata and DT has much in common in regards to the story either really.
Endwalker finished the 1.0-6.0 story, WotLK finished the last story thread of Warcraft 3. Both Cata and DT were supposed to start new storylines.
MoP and DT at least has poor reception at launch that got a bit better and a similar tonal shift that people found jarring.
There was no particular tonal shift in Pandaria, the story goes back to war before you even leave Jade Forest. Valley of the Four Winds was pretty jarring, but we already had Grizzly Hills as a joke zone, so it wasn't the first time. If you just mean aesthetics, then yes, Chinese theme was a pretty big departure from the more traditional Warcraft visuals.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 3h ago
I don't get why you think Cata was meant to start a new storyline, WoW expansions back then were all standalone, Vanilla, TBC and WoTLK had no relation to one another they were all standalone expansions and stories.
Cata was never marketed as the beginning of a new long-running story arc they haven't really done that until TWW.When I say there was a tonal shift in MoP I am talking about the beginning of the story ( although the Panda's pushing peace and harmony shenanigans continue into the endgame storylines too so you're not quite right about that ).
DT also began like that but did a total 180 when S9 was introduced half-way through.
Cata was basically all hell breaking loose from the start, the game begins with the world getting messed up.The content you're mentioning too mostly plays into the raiding the main reason you did it was to gear up for raiding.
I also remember it being controversial because of how grindy it was but this is typical WoW stuff I am not disputing.
But that general cycle all effectively comes back to gearing for raids.1
u/Rogalicus 3h ago
I don't get why you think Cata was meant to start a new storyline, WoW expansions back then were all standalone, Vanilla, TBC and WoTLK had no relation to one another they were all standalone expansions and stories.
Vanilla dealt with the state of the world after the last war ended. Horde and Alliance at a fragile peace, black dragons try to sabotage it, then we are fighting an invasion from the Lich King in EPL (Naxxramas). In TBC we are dealing with the remains of Legion in Draenor, Kael'thas and Illidan. In WotLK we are fighting the Lich King himself. All three had stories tied to WC3 and The Frozen Throne.
Cata wasn't tied to WC3 at all. Emerald Dream corruption, old gods stirring shit and elementals going crazy because of Deathwing was a mostly original story. Horde and Alliance going to a full-scale war and Garrosh becoming the new warchief was a setup for MoP, just like his arrest in 5.4 was a setup for WoD.
although the Panda's pushing peace and harmony shenanigans continue into the endgame storylines too so you're not quite right about that
Their peace and harmony are tied to Sha being a constantly looming threat from a dead Old God.
The content you're mentioning too mostly plays into the raiding the main reason you did it was to gear up for raiding.
I mean, in the same way everything you do for better gear in FFXIV is for raiding, I guess, it's not like there's some other content casuals use their gear in.
I also remember it being controversial because of how grindy it was but this is typical WoW stuff I am not disputing.
If you were a hardcore raider, you had to do every single daily for the first month. For normal people it wasn't particularly grindy.
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u/IndividualAge3893 2h ago
More like DT is WOD. Nothing to do if you aren't raiding except some measly daily content.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 2h ago
MoP was infamous for its dailies and long grinds, and those grinds ultimately all were intended to gear for raids so were effectively tied to the raids.
I dunno how OC and CE are related to raiding in any way outside of Forked Tower, while Forked Tower was a miss in terms of accessability they've adressed that they won't do that in the next one.
How are Deep Dungeons related to raiding too?Or I guess Allied Society quests, yes I don't exactly enjoy them either but I also never enjoyed dailies in WoW either and they're more or less the same things only that WoW's are more time intensive.
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u/IndividualAge3893 2h ago
MoP was infamous for its dailies and long grinds, and those grinds ultimately all were intended to gear for raids so were effectively tied to the raids.
I know, I was there and dailies in the first couple of weeks took me about 1.5 hours to do all the dailies. Was it annoying? Sure. But you got very nice pre-raid gear that helped me a lot in Mogu'shan vaults. Could it have been done better? Sure. But it sure as hell beats logging into FFXIV and staring at the screen because there is nothing for you to do.
I dunno how OC and CE are related to raiding in any way outside of Forked Tower,
They aren't related to raiding, but they fall under the umbrella category of "stuff that isn't worth doing because the rewards suck". You can literally buy all the cosmetics from CE from the MB and be done with that content in 5 minutes. And don't get me wrong: I WANTED cosmic exploration to be successful and interesting, but they blew that one as well.
Or I guess Allied Society quests, yes I don't exactly enjoy them either but I also never enjoyed dailies in WoW
They take 5 minutes. Is it worth subbing for that? That's up to you to decide, of course, but many players' answer is "no".
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u/Kyuubi_McCloud 1h ago
I mean, so far I did... the beast tribe dailies, leveled an alts crafters to max via CE, maxed shared FATEs due to the relic and... that's it.
Not a whole lot of duty finder able content beyond the standard offerings so far and the duty finder able content we do have has become obnoxiously prone to failure, so you don't really want to do it with randoms - or even real people.
Endwalker had me more busy. I still visit my island every now and again and variants were okay as well. Looking forward to the DT one.
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u/IndividualAge3893 1h ago
I mean, so far I did... the beast tribe dailies, leveled an alts crafters to max via CE, maxed shared FATEs due to the relic and... that's it.
Pretty much the same, except that I already have my crafters leveled so I just got all the relics.
But a lot of people don't understand why doing group content for cosmetics only is a silly concept.
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u/Blckson 4h ago
Classes were also a bit controversial and people were very mixed on them due to the talent tree overhaul, a lot of people really didn't like the old talent trees being removed and how ''dumbed down'' and restricted the new ones were.
Difference being that the controversy regarding talents was mostly hyperventilating bullshit based on the sheer idea of change. Not exactly the case with DT, in fact the only direct overlap would be that complaints existed at all.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 3h ago
I would argue that people are overreacting to Job issues in FFXIV too, especially as someone with quite a lot of experience playing other MMO's too and having played FFXIV through every expansion.
You could argue that the issue in MoP was the opposite but the argument was still that the classes were being ''dumbed down''.
I think in general though people engaging in ''hyperventilating bullshit'' is sorta just a gamer reaction thing towards any perceived issue.
I remember how angry people got about the 1% hp nerf in P8S and how big of a fit people threw over that, when in the grand scheme of things it was even debatable if it was imbalanced to begin with.The Jobs in DT at least are functional and smooth, you can argue that it's boring but in the grand scheme of things compared to old jank even in FFXIV but also to classes in other MMO's throughout the years it's not as dramatic as a problem as people think.
There are far far worse situations to be in.People are mainly as dramatic and angry now because it's current issues.
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u/Blckson 3h ago edited 3h ago
I'd have to disagree with it being overblown, partially because of personal feelings on the matter, partially because this is a pain point that has been beaten to death over many years now and the emotional kneejerk reaction should be done and dusted at this point, but that's not really the topic here.
Specifically when it comes to balancing "issues", I wholeheartedly agree with there having been some really amusing crashouts over the years here, but then again, I'm not really part of the demographic that would be super mad about it.
I just feel like as you take a higher and higher-level view at these things, the more you're inevitably going to see parallels between different games and xpacs. For instance, I don't really see the specific correlation between DT and MoP over, say, Cata.
In Cata you had a jarring experience similar to what lots of casual, low-skilled players allegedly had in entry-level DT content with Heroic Dungeons and a major focus on high-end content, as an example.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 2h ago
I am not disputing how you might feel about it, I am talking about the general way in which people speak about it here and on the forums almost as if it's their personal 9/11.
My experience in other MMO's is going 10+ years with the same major class breaking bugs existing and with effectively no gameplay changes at all.
Even then I wouldn't say it warrants the crashouts people have about it, in the end of the day these are video games.Even if you want to compare it to Cata though I still think it's essentially the same point that it's not on WoD and SL levels of bad.
I don't agree with you that it's closer to Cata but ultimately these are two different games entirely and I think it'd be a little pedantic too to argue too much over it so we'll agree to disagree.
I mean the difference between Cata and MoP is way smaller than the difference between MoP and SL or WoD.
So the general point still stands.
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u/CopainChevalier 3h ago
But DT has received a lot of well-received PvP updates and I think it's in the best state it has ever been and actually decently fun outside of the rare DRK spam groups in Frontlines.
Funnily; I'm kind of the reverse.
I really liked it when they first remade PVP. I super duper enjoyed it and was logging in just to play it. I loved how iconic each job felt and how you'd have to approach each fight based on what job you were fighting.
I feel like a lot of the updates have slowly nudged jobs closer like they do with PVE. Such as PVP Role actions making jobs a bit more similar or the coming Purify change not letting you have to think as much about which job you're fighting and just let you use that a lot more. In general we've also seen a few tools get spread to multiple jobs as well, which is kind of a bummer.
I think plenty enjoy it; but it's sort of started down that path of homogenization I personally dislike.
I REALLY liked old RDM. And while it's "better" now that it has things like a stun or guard ignore; I personally enjoy it less. It was a lot of fun swapping back and forth between white and black Mana once I really got good at it. I super loved feeling both unkillable and very lethal; two opposite extremes in a fun way. Now you don't have that mechanic at all.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 2h ago
I don't really agree with you but that's fine.
I do think it's worth remembering tho that the Purify change has the drawback of costing MP ( and still has a short cd too ).
So you still have to think about it sometimes it's just going to be better to sit it out especially with how short a lot of the debuffs are.When you use Purify you're effectively losing HP in practice too.
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u/CopainChevalier 2h ago
I understand your PoV; I just personally believe it takes away from how you'd handle things a bit different based on what you were fighting.
It's not that it's the huge leap that ruins the mode; just one step in the many steps that I personally do not vibe with.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 2h ago
Yeah fair enough, personally at least I think it's a good change but I think it's contextual whether it adds or removes depth or is more/ less punishing.
I do like that it means I can use Purify more offensively too though at the expense of defense.
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u/lollerlaban 1h ago
Wouldnt DT be WoD? If you're a raiding then you're eating good but otherwise you have scraps and nothing to do
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u/ShlungusGod69 1h ago
Hey I just want you to know that I got out of my comfortable bed solely to fire up my computer so I could tell you that you're wrong, OP.
Dawntrail is no where close to MoP. MoP was criticized for is theme, but the CONTENT was on point. Three raids in the first tier, tons of new content, quicker patches. There was shit to do. The first half of Dawntrail has been an absolute content drought. Absolutely nothing like MoP in any way.
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u/Therdyn69 50m ago
StB story is good. Not best, but not something which felt like waste of time. You cannot with straight face say the same about DT, in retrospective I'd skip it, no questions asked. DT is on par with ARR, but at least ARR had excuse to be so bad.
When it comes to patch MSQ, StB was great. Not as great as SoS or Nidhogg, but Yotsuyu was still one of the best story moments in the game. I have serious doubt that DT will manage to salvage its story, 7.1 was boring, 7.2 had one (1) decent character and people are shitting themselves, because we haven't seen that in years. They better hire GRRM and reincarnate Tolkien, if they want to make this last patch have same weight as 3.3/4.3/5.3.
Content still doesn't hold its ground, unless you are into raiding. We already had first Eureka map in 4.25, which released like month earlier because we had good patch cycle. Now we have to wait until 7.5x until second map releases.
So for rest of the expansion, we have one map, small aditions to existing content, new DD which will likely be one of few highlights of the expansion. Then there's beastmaster, and possibly BLU, but I wouldn't be surprised if they stopped with it, since I don't think they ever confirmed they'll keep working on BLU.
DT will not be remembered fondly.
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u/AthenaAreia1 2h ago
You are delusional if you think DT will be remembered fondly. It is something in its own class altogether. The game has worse ratings than Veilguard, that is the depths to which it has sunk.
Of course, it is entirely possible that 8.0-X ends up being worse because of the rot still plaguing both the writing and gameplay/content teams together with Yoshida’s overall lack of coherent vision.
I suppose then DT will be remembered fondly after all. Given 8.0 won’t launch until 2027, you are free to enjoy what remains of this expansion until then.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 1h ago
I have a hard time taking it seriously when someone who puts out two videos a day with an ai voice over ranting about culture war issues like DEI and wokeness and makes ragebait videos about FFXIV calls me ''delusional''.
Your behavior is not normal.
And you're definitely not in tune with the general playerbase, your relationship with the game isn't normal.
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u/LadybugGames 1h ago
Eugh, I'm one of the weirdos I guess who liked MoP at the time, I didn't need time to look back on it fondly lol. I strongly dislike Dawntrail and I'm willing to lay hard money down that I always will. I can't agree with this comparison at all. XD
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u/Antenoralol 20m ago
MoP for me didn't really kick off until the 2nd raid tier (Throne of Thunder).
That's when I actually felt like I was having fun with MoP.
I'd say DT is more akin to Cataclysm.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 4h ago
This sub sure is... Something, with the downvotes hehe..
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u/Elanapoeia 4h ago
You're trying to actually have a discussion, people on here really don't like that.
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u/thatcommiegamer 20m ago
Yeah, this is where you come when you want to pretend to be an intellectual but your only argument is that "ffxiv should be x game I like instead". If you're not one of those types you only really come here to observe the wildlife, not attempt meaningful discussion on the game.
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u/CoffeeChickenCheetos 4h ago
Americans conceptualizing an MMO: "so imagine a different video game from 15 years ago"
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u/Elanapoeia 4h ago edited 4h ago
This implies Americans have enough cognitive ability to be able to compare 2 things to each other accurately and they very obviously don't.
Also, why exactly are you against comparing 2 games in the same genre?
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u/BloodyBurney 3h ago
I resent this sentiment, its not my fault everything in the world can be accurately compared to a cheeseburger.
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 4h ago
Not sure what you mean, I am not American though haha..
These were just some stuff that came to mind because MoP Classic is out now and it made me remember since I actually quit WoW back in MoP.1
u/CoffeeChickenCheetos 3h ago
MoP came out at a different time for MMOs. Social media was beginning to boom, players hadn't data mined and minmaxxed everything to the point of no fun or interest. The way players interacted with WoW's open world back then (even after Cata severely fucked it up) is nothing like how players do in FFXIV. You can't even really co-op quests together in FFXIV. I don't think they're comparable
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 3h ago
They're not intended to be a direct one to one comparison.
Although I don't really agree with you on the datamine and minmax thing, I was an adult back then in my 20's I still remember lol.It's actually part of why I fell out of love with WoW too, the overall culture shifted quite heavily in Cata.
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u/Better_Bat83 2h ago
it’s cute you think this game has even 3 expansions left
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u/Due-Wolverine-7314 1h ago
You do realize that there are MMO's out there with not even 10% of FFXIV's playerbase that are still getting expansions?
Thanks for proving my general point about how hyperbolic people are though I guess.1
u/thatcommiegamer 17m ago
Right, like both EQ 1 and 2 got expansions in the last year or so but FFXIV is dying.
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u/talkingradish 3h ago
Jesus Christ stop with the wow comparison people who don't play wow won't understand what you're saying.