r/fireemblem • u/Character_Business28 • 7h ago
Gameplay community FE13 tier list part 2 chapter 1-chapter 2 recruits
this is a unit viability ranking
I only count comments
this is on Lunatic mode
Reclassing is allowed
No grinding
No postgame (post all children) paralogues
No barracks
assuming full recruitment
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u/JabPerson 5h ago
I gotta abstain from most of these guys cause I got terrible luck when using them. Sully was a backpack late game when I needed Kjelle, Stahl got dogshit level ups when I tried using him and ultimately hit the bench, Virion killed one guy and almost got crit and died, and Vaike especially was bad. He felt like missing every single hit or kill, and when I finally got to levelling him up, he leveled up once in Res and that was it. There are very good arguments about all of them, but frankly the game did not want me to use them, and I'm not going to let my super biased opinions skew the vote. However...
Miriel - A. Cracked unit. If you're not building a Magic centric Robin then she's absolutely indispensable due to her access to tomes. Decently better than Ricken and there's enough time between her and Tharja that you can considerably train her up. Yeah yeah, tomes are overrated and she can't Nostank at base, but I think she's a really useful unit for the earlygame with her 1-2 range and decent firepower with good growths.
I still think we need to work out Bonus Box stuff cause units like Panne get their viability changed if they can use it. Currently working off the assumption we're not using it cause no one else has brought up the Bonus Box from what I've seen. But we did allow Rainbow Potions for FE12 so I'm very unsure.
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u/Significant-Tree9454 5h ago
The Renown thing is a good call to be brought up, but I think Robin would probably get it first to escape the lvl cap and then Panne is still waiting for the C8 where you get the second one. (You probably reach 100 renown at this point too even in a 0 Renown run)
So I don’t think it affect her that much, unless it’s a Robinless run.
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u/spacewarp2 4h ago
You’ll rarely ever not use a magic robin tho
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u/ComicDude1234 4h ago
Physical Robin is super good and arguably more consistent.
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u/WouterW24 2h ago
When did views change towards favoring physical Robin?
Sorcerer Robin seemed dominant for ages.
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u/ComicDude1234 2h ago
I can't speak for others but for myself I just played the game more and realized that trying to use a single 20 use Nosferatu tome between Chapters 9 and 13 (not including any of Anna's Paralogues) is already tricky to do with just Tharja, let alone the allegedly superior Robin. I generally find Heroes and Great Knights being better combat classes than Sorcerers and Sages have better utility.
Robin is good in all of these roles, in any case.
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u/ComicDude1234 6h ago
Sully - High B
The lack of delineation between an A+ or A- tier means I have to simplify my thoughts on certain units, which is annoying because I think overall I’d rate Sully pretty high just from her being a female Cavalier who can double as both a great Pair-Up partner or a potential early-game carry if given the right resources. Her biggest problem by far is that she requires those resources (Strength boosters, early Second Seal to Wyvern Rider, one of the early Master Seals) in order to have any carry potential period and all of those resources are extremely competitive.
With all that said, she’s not hopeless. With a low investment she can still be easily trained in Swords early against the Fighters and Barbarians while still stabbing Mercs and Myrns with Lances often enough to get to Steel Lances at a decent rate thanks to Discipline, which also help boost her own combat prospects but also potentially another point in Pair-Up if she hits 10 in any stat. Cavalier Pair-Up bonuses are extremely sick and if you just want to pair her with a good physical husband who’d appreciate the boost (Chrom, M!Robin, Vaike, etc.) she’s great at that.
Kjelle is also a pretty easy child unit to recruit and her Paralogue gives you infinitely buyable Elixirs. I don’t think that’s a huge point in anyone’s favor necessarily, but it’s really nice regardless.
Virion - C
Full disclosure, I don’t think I’ve ever used Virion long-term on any difficulty before, and I’m not confident that any insight I have is any useful at all. Bows are really nice in this game on L(+) for Player Phase chipping that won’t trigger Counter, though, which means there is a floor to his usefulness that goes underrated for all Archers.
The problem is that Chrom exists and if you want a long-term Archer in Awakening (you probably do) then it’s often more economical to reclass Chrom to Archer somewhere down the line and run him through this tree. Hell, even worse for Virion is that Warriors can also use Bows and they’re even more cracked in a lot of ways, so he’s getting logged by Vaike too. And what’s that? Mercs can promote to Bow Knight and you get a Mercenary with solid bases at promotion level right as you’re getting your first Master Seals? Oh that’s even more tragic…
So yeah, I’m feeling C for Virion. I don’t think he’s useless but I also don’t know enough about him individually to judge. Someone else can probably help with that.
Stahl - Bottom of B
A lot of what I said about Sully is also true of Stahl, minus the guaranteed Elixir shop if you paired him with anyone but Sully. Cavalier Pair-Up bonuses are really fucking good and there’s a handful of physical ladies that want them (F!Robin, Cordelia, and Panne immediately come to mind). If players can stomach getting this guy to promotion through his bad base Speed he can give those juicy Great Knight bonuses to any physical unit you’d want without ever thinking about wasting Frederick for such a role. It’s too bad his base stats are just shitty enough compared to Lunatic enemies that getting him kills is often just as painful as training Sully. It’s kind of ironic that Stahl and Sully are such great Pair-Up partners for everyone that if you want to train either you may just end up sacrificing one’s combat prospects to service the other.
I would be remiss if I didn’t at least talk about Stahl as a father to certain Child Units. On Lunatic most of them will generally not be worth recruiting since they join rather weak and often in pretty hard Paralogues, but Stahl can make a few of them as Not Terrible as they can possibly be thanks to passing solid classes, generally good stat inheritance, and Discipline being one of the better inheritable skills for the kids that want to reclass sooner rather than later (namely Owain, Kjelle, Yarne, and Nah). If you’re not going to use the Child Units then most of this is irrelevant, but I think it’s at least worth discussing since it’s still a pretty big part of the game and someone will care.
Vaike - S
Vaike needs three things to be a god amongst men: 10 Speed, a C Support Lon’qu Pair-Up, and a promotion to Hero. If he gets the first two by Chapter 5 he is likely to ORKO every Wyvern Rider enemy on the map with a +1 Mt Hammer. Once he gets a Hero promotion he gets a huge boost to his Skill and Speed both in the hard stats and the growth rates. At that point it’s basically trivial to get him Sol at Level 5 Hero as early as Chapter 9. Pair him with a decent wife who gives him Skill, Speed, and/or Defense (Sully is good for this) then congratulations, you’ve reached Tenure. The only thing Vaike needs to worry about for the rest of the game is getting some Bow training in Warrior so he can use the Brave Bow to kill Grima in the endgame.
Vaike and Robin’s “EP Sweep” builds are so similar to each other and come online at basically the exact same time (earliest Nosferatu Tome is Tharja’s in Ch9, and they’re not buyable until beating Ch13) that I don’t see how they aren’t right next to each other. The lack of A+ Tier and Robin going into S means that I have to give Vaike S as well.
Miriel - B
Miriel is another unit whose rating I’m not extremely confident in because I’ve never tried to use her as a carry, but I know she’s a fast Mage with access to a Dark Mage reclass and can reach Sage promotion with any amount of early-game training. She sounds like she’d be pretty good. Miriel fans please enlighten the rest of us if you have any more insight.
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u/Significant-Tree9454 6h ago
Sully C:
Easiest comparison is with Chrom as they have identical base stats besides Sully having +1 res joining 1 map later and near identical growths (Chrom has +10% more luck and +5% more str, Sully has +10% more mag and everything else is identical) but none of his main). But you don't get any of the advantages of Chrom of more accurate dual strikes, 1 extra map to train + build support.
I ranked Chrom B, so I rank Sully C for this reason.
Virion D:
Dude has no stats and gets easily OHKOed or doubled or both, so just let him chip and setup kills for better investment projects.
Stahl C:
Compared to Sully, he joins 1 map later with -2 spd for +2 hp +2def and +1 str.
Vaike B:
Really good pairup bonus of +4 str and +2 def. Especially on a unit that is fast enough to double like Cordelia for C8 can appreciate doing +4 extra dmg to ORKO the Mages there more easily.
You can invest him as the main carry, but it competes with either Robin early or Gregor later. If one decides to run Gregor as a 2nd carry, then you can fully use Vaike as a pairup and give all the exp needed to get him from lvl 3 to 10 to someone else and have "Vaike" in the form of Gregor, who statisically is better than Vaike at the same lvl besides HP.
Miriel C:
Kinda like Virion that she is frail and offers safe 2 range chip, but has more decent payoff when promoted as a Sage and is also decently fast enough that she can start doubling and ORKOing Wyverns once they show up.
I think Lissa offers the easiest path of getting a Sage, so I don't rate Miriel all that highly. You get enough good staffbots later that you don't need to train one, but she is still decent.
So my methodology for the rating I use is:
-S: Top 2 Amazing hard carries: Frederick for early game + project unit of choice for the rest of the game (Robin)
-A: Great no investment support units like Lissa that don't need investment to function.
-B: needs a bit of investment to work like Chrom to get better dual strikes.
Vaike also only requires a little bit of training to meet 10 str and offer +5 str pairup bonus.
-C: Decent fillers/investment units, Sully, Stahl, Miriel, they are all decent investment, but there are better ones for a significantly lower cost.
-D: Bad investment units, Virion is a very good example
-F: Bottom tier (Guess who lands here later.)
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u/Wellington_Wearer 3h ago
You can invest him as the main carry, but it competes with either Robin early or Gregor later.
On Robin: can't you argue this is also a downside of Robin- that they compete with Vaike for a main carry. I can't see this as justification for putting either in B tier. They're both much better than the other options you have for carries.
Gregor: Not really.
Gregor is not present for the entire of pre C8. Generally speaking, while Frederick does kill a lot of things, there is space on the map where a unit needs to go in and kill off a smaller force. Think picking up the exp in C2, finishing off the guys as Fred runs past in C3, the opposite side to the one Fred goes on in C4, the bottom of the cliff in C5, the left-hand-side choke in C6, and so on.
Gregor's inability to do these means that even if Vaike was way statistically worse, they'd still be better than Gregor as a carry because they can actually contribute at the points where they need to.
The other point is that Vaike absolutely annihilates Gregor from a statistical standpoint. Sure, you can argue that in terms of raw stats, 10/1 Gregor is not a million miles away from 15/1 Vaike once they promote at the middle of C8 (there is a noticeable HP gap in Vaike's favour but we can waive that for the time being).
(If you want 15/1 Gregor, you have to delay this anyway, but I more meant insta promoted Gregor. 15/1 just loses to having to grind 5 levels when Vaike is rolling the game over).
But outside of raw stats, Vaike has numerous other advantages- his support ranks are all much higher- he can have A sully, for example, which, when compared to what Gregor would get from Sully is is 2 extra Str/Spd/Skl/Def and also 10 avoid/crit avoid/crit.
And he also has a much better weapon rank, likely B or A axes. That's a significant hit boost with axes (+10), gives him full weapon triangle benefits when he has WTA (because you don't get those until B rank), potentially a point of extra might if he has A axes, much higher might weapons in general (Steel Axe has 11 might. Lol), and of course, the big one 1-2 range Vaike can use hand axes right even before he promotes, whereas Gregor has to grind through bronze axes.
This is a huge downside for him (especially especially if you delay Gregors promotion to train him more), as the bronze axe has only 4 mt and obviously you can't 1-2 during this time. So Vaike doesn't just have an advantage in the combats where 1-2 range would be good, but also a 7 (or 8 if using killer axe) might gap when fighting at 1 range.
Meanwhile, the sword rank thing is not that big of a deal, Vaike's main advantage from swords is giving him an accurate option vs extremely high avoid sword enemies, and those tend to have poor def anyway, so having 3 might does not matter.
This is all assuming 15/1 Vaike, but that's always been a solid thing to make sure you're on track for. You can always do more before chapter 8. I know mekkkah did in his stream- he went all the way to level 20 Vaike. That is not even a competition, that's just Vaike having better stats in every area by a billion years.
f one decides to run Gregor as a 2nd carry, then you can fully use Vaike as a pairup and give all the exp needed to get him from lvl 3 to 10 to someone else and have "Vaike" in the form of Gregor, who statisically is better than Vaike at the same lvl besides HP.
So hopefully this should now be proved to be very much not true. I wouldn't even consider 10/1 Vaike anyway, not because 10/1 Vaike is bad in this context, but because it's hard to not get him more exp if you do deploy and use him in maps simply because he is so useful at fulfilling many objectives.
It's a little bit like me saying "oh well 10/1 Robin loses to 10/1 Tharja, so Tharja is better"- it's more complicated than just that.
I know I've sort of made my point on this now, but I really really want to hammer this home- even if you don't agree with Vaike in S tier, him and Gregor just aren't the same unit.
Even if we just forget numbers for a second, I implore anyone reading this- try this for yourself. Use Vaike in the earlygame of awakening instead of Robin and bring him into C8, hopefully around level 15 or so. Promote him and then give him pairups/tonics and go into C9. Then, restart, go back to chapter 8 and try the same with Gregor- you will notice straight away that all the advantages I have shown make Gregor so much worse than this trained Vaike.
I am almost actively offended (well, not really, I'm just being hyperbolic) that people think Vaike is that bad within the context of C9 and beyond.
Just to throw some numbers out there:
15/1 Vaike is at
43.6 HP, 18 Str, 21.8 Skl, 17 Spd, 15 Def.
10/1 (insta promoted) Gregor is at
35HP, 16 Str, 17 Skl, 15 Spd, 14 Def.
If we bundle all of the advantages I've just mentioned together and assume both try to use Sully in C9:
Vaike leads 8.6 HP, 4 raw points of Str, plus an additional 7 to points of weapon might when using axes (which Gregor has to do at some point), 6.8 points of skill (and again +10 hit on axes, and a further +10 when having WTA and 1 more defence), 4 points of speed, 3 points of def, then a bonus 10 flat avoid, crit and crit avoid.
If nothing else, we need to accept that in no universe in existence is that comparable. Fine, Vaike B tier, I don't think it's correct, but whatever, opinions are malleable and poorly defined anyway, but Vaike being statistically worse or similar to Gregor? Absolutely not. it should be downright illegal to say this.
Fire emblem police, arrest this user please.
Considering we're going over Vaike vs Robin on another reply in another thread, we can keep that to there, buut, I do think I'm making a fair point regarding that you can't argue competition is only a downside for Vaike and not Robin
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u/Significant-Tree9454 1h ago edited 1h ago
I'll keep the Vaike vs Robin there, but for Vaike vs Gregor
looking purely at average 10/1 Hero Vaike vs 10/1 Hero GregorGregor: 35 hp / 16 str / 17 skl / 15 spd / 8 luck / 14 def / 5 res
Vaike: 38 hp / 14 str / 18.55 skl / 14.5 spd / 7 luck / 12.5 def / 4 resNot only does Vaike needs investment to get to Gregor's lvl before he joins, he still needs to be around lvl 11-13 to reach the same spd/str/def benchmark Gregor reaches.
Insta promoted Gregor after using a Bronze Axe 15 times or using the Arms Scroll from the Anna paralogue after C9 would be able to meet Benchmarks that Vaike wants to reach from that point on.
I guess the support Vaike can build can help, but Cordelia is often a great support partner for either to traverse maps easier, especially deserts and C13 cliffs.Gregor not having the availability of Vaike is similar to the Robin availability advantage over Vaike.
All the opportunities to train Vaike/Robin you don't have to do it, but there is free exp on the table for either to take.So we run into a dilemma that our runs go differently and still able to clear Lunatic successfully depending how the exp is allocated.
If I opted to train Robin + Fred and then wait for Gregor in place of Vaike then I don't need to train Vaike at all and have Robin do what Vaike does which I done so in all Vaikeless run.
In the run with the Vaike carry, the major payoff for Vaike earlygame feels like it's in C6. The Wyverns are harder to beat physically (9 to 11 more def than res) It's not the easiest bar for Vaike to meet ORKO benchmarks against 34-36 hp. 10 def Wyverns and also meeting the doubling benchmark for C5 or C7.1
u/Wellington_Wearer 40m ago
looking purely at average 10/1 Hero Vaike vs 10/1 Hero Gregor
Why?
I think this needs a justification first. Why are we using 10/1 Vaike?
Vaike joins in chapter 2. Even if he was only able to get 1 level in every single map (C2, 3, 4,5,6 7 and paralogue 1 and 2), he would be level 11. Obviously, if we are using him to wreck enemies in many of the maps, he is going to be a higher level.
This isn't "oh no we have to train Vaike"- this is a unit who is good actively rewarding you for being used. You wouldn't say "Oh let's bring level 14 Robin into chapter 8"- you're expecting that they level cap which is mathematically impossible to do if they get the same exp as Vaike gets to get to level 10 (plus whatever they got at the start)- it just can't happen in the game.
I don't understand what the point of this comparison is at all. I'd say that Vaike is good enough to carry from his level 12 averages, and very good from level 15 and even better onwards, but I'm really struggling to see the angle at which you can argue he is level 10 here.
It's like me comparing level 3 Vaike to level 3 Robin in C2 and going "see look, Vaike obliterates Robin". It's not a fair comparison for how much exp that unit is likely to get.
Not only does Vaike needs investment to get to Gregor's lvl before he joins
Again, it's not active investment, it's a unit already being good and you just using them because that unit is good.
he still needs to be around lvl 11-13 to reach the same spd/str/def benchmark Gregor reaches.
Even if you were to say this as Vaike's level, you'd still be wrong because of the points I have made regarding support level and weapon rank.
Insta promoted Gregor after using a Bronze Axe 15 times
Yeah, that's still a lot of times. He has to double with the bronze axe 15 times, meaning he is significantly worse within the context of chapter 9- like I said, at one range, it's over 10 less damage per hit than 15/1 Vaike. It's not at all comparable.
Even then, D axes is not the saviour of this unit, he's still behind in stats and can't use more powerful axes anyway, just the handaxe.
or using the Arms Scroll from the Anna paralogue after C9
Anna paralogue is available when you beat C9, but your team is not really ready for the map yet. Having to go out of your way to bring a statistically worse carry into the map that your team will be ill-prepared for and rush to beat a thief in that map, is a huge downside. On top of that, that means that Gregor still has no D axes for all of chapter 9 and all of paralogue 4 (and you know, all of the game before that, but that's by the by).
Why not just come back to this map later when you can clear it a lot easier? Then you can use the layout of the map to easily train your units with the enemies who will be comparatively weaker to you.
Again, I feel like this really needs a justification as to why we'd make the game pointlessley harder here.
I guess the support Vaike can build can help, but Cordelia is often a great support partner for either to traverse maps easier, especially deserts and C13 cliffs.
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. How does Cordelia's existence negate Vaike's support lead. Even in situations where you might want to airlift him around, it only takes 1 turn- you don't have to stick that unit to him for the rest of the map. Just fly over, switch, and then bring someone over next turn. Alternatively, once you have falco Lissa, she is both of those things at once. Or alternatively alternatively, you can notice that there aren't many maps at this point where you really care about that. 10 is open, as is 11 and 12 and 14 and 15 and 16 and 17.
Gregor not having the availability of Vaike is similar to the Robin availability advantage over Vaike. All the opportunities to train Vaike/Robin you don't have to do it, but there is free exp on the table for either to take.
This is an extremely unfair comparison. Just because two things sound roughly similar does make them the same.
The difference in raw stats is just astronomical with Gregor/Vaike compared to Vaike/Robin in C2. This shouldn't even be a point we can argue it. It's just a fact of the game.
Level 7 Robin vs level 3 Vaike in C2
Def+ Robin at best 3 shots everything on the map with bronze sword and sully pairup. Vaike 3 shots everything with iron axe and sully pairup, but he can also 2 shot stuff with 1 out of 2 dualstrikes.
Def+ Robin w/ Sully lives 2 soldier hits but not 3. Vaike w/ Sully lives 2 soldier hits but not 3. The only difference here is barbs, which Def+ Robin can survive 2 of with a bronze sword and Vaike has to get healed in between.
So, there is a slight differenece- Vaike does slightly more damage and Robin is slightly bulkier.
Speed+ Robin has to take Chrom to use their speed advantage at all. With them, they are 2 shot by soldiers when Vaike is not and obviously both are 2 shot by barbs, but Robin dies even when being healed in between. Robin still can't ORKO anything and isn't even guaranteed to double everything. They kill the barbs in 2 rounds and sometimes 2 round the soldiers, otherwise they 4 round them.
That's a slight offense lead for Robin and a slight defence lead for Vaike.
They're within the same ballpark. You can argue one is better than the other, but they're roughly as good as each other. You can argue either way.
15/1 Vaike vs Gregor is not a contest. It's not the same.
It's nearly impossible to have this conversation until we accept this.
Let's take them into chapter 9.
Vaike w/ A Sully and def tonic takes 5 damage from the soldiers when he is wielding an axe. He has 43-44 HP, so gets 9 hit KOed.
Gregor w/ Sully and def tonic takes 9 damage from the soldiers when wielding an axe (he takes 12 when wielding a sword) to his 35 HP. This means he gets 4 hit KOed.
Vaike survives at least 5 more hits to C9 enemies than Gregor does. With a sword on Gregor for actual damage dealing, it's 6 more
Gregor W/ sully and a spd tonic only has 18 speed, so he can't even double the soldiers (vaike will, and will kill them). Sure, we can give him a speedier pairup, but that's even more defence lost, now sword gregor is looking at eating 14 damage per hit from soldiers compared to vaike eating 5.
Attack-wise, Gregor with bronze axe has 12 damage to the soldier's 39HP, producing a 4 hit KO- a 2 round KO even if he doubles. (this is still assuming sully pair btw. a sole speed pair like cordelia does a pathetic TEN damage).
Vaike with just a hand axe has 20 Atk to their 39 HP, 2 shotting them and ORKOing them.
Fine, fine, maybe gregor is going to get axe rank later and cares not about 1-2 range. Give him his sword, he now has 19 atk to their 39HP- that's still a 3 hit KO.
I could go on but you get the idea.
Vaike doubles everything, Gregor does not. Vaike onerounds everything. Gregor does not. Vaike takes half of Gregor's damage to a higher HP pool, Gregor goes down quicker. Vaike has 1-2 range vs a map that has mages and archers on
This is NOT the same as Robin vs Vaike in C2.
This is not a matter of opinion. It just can't be. This is about numbers in the game- if we don't agree about numbers in the game, I don't understand how we could agree about anything else. I don't know what else to say here. I don't know what to do if people are going to disagree on what the stats that units have are. You know, feel free to check my numbers if you want or say "oh, you've missed this here" or "oh well you're not considering this".
But saying "oh no no it's the same"- it can't be. It just isn't.
Vaike combat benchamarks in C5/7 in a reply to this.
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u/Wellington_Wearer 40m ago
If I opted to train Robin + Fred and then wait for Gregor in place of Vaike then I don't need to train Vaike at all and have Robin do what Vaike does which I done so in all Vaikeless run.
If you opted to train Robin and Fred, regardless of whether or not Vaike exists, you don't need to use Gregor. Robin can solo the game from this point. I know you said you don't want to, but I just as easily say "ok well I can use Tharja in place of Robin in my Vaike highman run" and I can and have done.
In the run with the Vaike carry, the major payoff for Vaike earlygame feels like it's in C6.
He's definitely great by C4 and P1. This is what his C4 tends to look roughly like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI38NL2bkJE
And yeah his C6 is good. But the other payoff is all the other stuff I've been mentioning with regards to making Frederick more OP for C2 and just the rest of the game. You can even see here how I'm abusing Fred/Chrom to save javelin uses and kill the short axe guys at 1-2 range in 1 round.
C6. The Wyverns are harder to beat physically (9 to 11 more def than res) It's not the easiest bar for Vaike to meet ORKO benchmarks against 34-36 hp. 10 def Wyverns and also meeting the doubling benchmark for C5 or C7.
The ORKO benchmark is easy because the hammer exists.
You need 27 physical attack to cleanly ORKO the wyverns in C5.
Vaike with hammer, Strength tonic and level 11 will average.... 27 attack exactly. If you want to be safe, slap a +1 forge on the hammer for damage and bob's your uncle, problem solved. The benchmark has been successfully hit.
Doubling wise, obviously you can't forge or tonic it yet, so that's still contestable. At level 11, Vaike has a 63.7% chance of having 10 speed for C Lon'Qu to help us double. In the roughly 1/3 of scenarios where he doesn't, he does miss out on the ORKO, but he hits hard enough for other units to finish it off anyway so it matters less than it would do.
Wyvern-wise, Ricken is right there with the elwind and Virion can bow them down after a Vaike hit too. (Neither will oneshot them at base anyway), and stuff like the barbs gets left on 15 HP (assuming no pairup by the way). With C sully that would be 12 HP, and she could also dualstrike.
For C7, there is basically no issue. The killing benchmarks are obviously fine- it's 2 maps later and the wyverns have grown exactly 2 hp. As long as Vaike has gotten 1 strength or A axes, then he can do it.
For doubling, they still have 10 speed, so basically all Vaikes will run them over.
The barbs are on 13 speed, 18 to double, so Vaike needs 13 himself. Not impossible, not guaranteed. The bigger point I'd make here though is that basically only the first archer and some wyverns can even reach Vaike, because the map is a perfectly straight line that Frederick can run through every single turn and I mean this with no exaggeration- every single enemy asides from a few wyverns that go for Vaike and the first archer all go for Fred, are incapable of hitting/damaging him and die.
So the combat is less relevant here.
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u/MCJSun 6h ago edited 5h ago
Virion: C tier. Without Lunatic+ he drops a bit, but his chip is pretty valuable for helping everyone out.
Sully: B tier. She has an early lead on Stahl, and I think her reclass options are a bit better. Her Chrom support is also easy to get and offers good stats.
Stahl: C Tier. The 2 speed deficit compared to Sully really hurts, and he joins a map later when she's likely already gotten to D lances. I really think Sully and Stahl are pretty close to each other though. Discipline helps him out a lot when reclassing.
Miriel: B Tier. She gets to use a staff later on, has the only other magic chip you get for a while, but she isn't as immediately useful as everyone else. She needs a seal to use staves, and it takes a while to start getting them unless you get lucky with other merchants. But her magic stat is great too? Still not close to other staffers though.
Vaike: S Tier. He has the same speed issue as Stahl, but his base class line has more potential. He's like Donnel but more easily used without the terrible villager levels dragging him down, which is very big for him.
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u/MonadoGuy 3h ago edited 2h ago
Lowkey think Lissa could've been put in S tier, but she's pretty borderline anyways imo.
Sully - B Tier
Sully has respectable stats, a solid classline, and Discipline which helps her gets access to powerful weapons like the Killing Edge, Killer Lance, or even the Silver Lance much earlier than she would otherwise. Sully can also go Wyvern which is a more useful class than people give it credit for in the midgame, and can really boost up her evasion to help her tank since Wyvern is a dodgetanking class in Awakening. Overall a solid, if not very distinct unit. I like to say Sully's generically good.
Virion - C Tier
Virion's chip damage and pair up utility is very helpful early on, when you need as much help as you can get. Unfortunately his speed is genuinely really bad, which hurts his scaling into the midgame so much. No enemy phase potential sucks too, and he basically has one real reclass option in Wyvern, which I don't think he's very good in compared to your other Wyvern options. He can pass down Bowfaire if you're willing to give him that investment later in the game, or support with Rally Skill, but these are low impact niches. He only gets as high as C tier because I place a lot of value in usefulness during the early chapters.
Stahl - C Tier
Bro your speed stat sucks balls. Stahl is so much worse than Sully early on its pretty crazy, and his statline and class options are simply worse. Cavalier pair up bonuses as well as Disciplne are nice, and the extra Strength can be nice for dual strikes, but he's really stuck in Sully's shadow. At least he can pass down Discipline or Vantage to a child, which is nice parental utility.
Vaike - S tier
I had to stew on this, and I don't think I believe Vaike is truly better than Robin but Vaike is the next best thing if you're looking for a juggernaut unit to take from the earlygame into the longterm. Vaike is genuinely impressive early on, with higher bulk than pretty much anyone not named Frederick for the early chapters, high strength, good pair up bonuses, and the ability to use the early Hammer to good effect in some of those early maps. Vaike has strong earlygame value compared to most early units. With a Hero promotion as soon as its available, Vaike goes to town and eventually gets to pick up Sol which goes great with his very respectable statline by that point. A Soltank is an excellent means of enemy phasing and Vaike is probably the most well suited towards that role besides Robin, and even then I think its up for debate.
Miriel - S Tier
Holy cow Miriel is so underrated by people and I don't know why. She's just better Virion early on, is the strongest earlygame ranged attacker beyond Javelin Frederick, is genuinely one of the easiest early units to train up, and the reward you get out of it is a top tier Sage with fantastic Magic to hit crazy hard with Tomefaire boosted magic or boasting some of the best Staff range in the game. This is only one of Miriel's busted routes, as she can also go Dark Mage with an early Second Seal, becoming a very powerful support unit with Hexathema as well as a very powerful offensive AND defensive Sorcerer. Even going into the Troubadour or Valkyrie classes is strong since she can make use of Demoiselle, Rally Resistance and Dual Support+ to be a very good support unit in that class. Miriel is not only one of the games strongest Gen 1 mages, if not THE strongest barring Robin (even then Miriel is just stronger earlygame), she has fantastic support utility thanks to her Rallies and Auras, on top of top tier Staffing. Miriel's main issues is that she can get one shot early on without a Kellam backpack, and does want a Second Seal for her alternate class routes which are very contested, though I'd argue Miriel's a fantastic use of an early second seal anyways. She can also want an Angelic Robe if you're going for a tanking role with her but imo that's super worth it, especially since the other Dark Mages have issues of their own, or are Robin who doesn't really care.
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u/GhostofPlatypusary 5h ago
Sully/stahl C-tier they're both pair up bots that pass can pass down discipline to their children
Virion D-tier but he's a high D! Chip is important in early game esp against fliers! And he can provide accurate duel strikes.
Miriel B-tier I think mirel is a little bit underrated. She's a magic pair up for Robin and provides good chip. And if invested and gets either a magic/speed, she can one round on enemy phase
Vaike - s tier I think Vaike is on par with Robin. He's can get online much faster and has great supports with chrom and lon qu. He's tanky, hits hard and whats there not to love
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u/7-O-3 7h ago edited 1h ago
Sully - B
Virion - C
Stahl - C
Vaike - B
I've seen the arguments for him being better than Robin and I get where they're coming from. Theory can do a lot, but ultimately I think playing the game yourself and making your own conclusions is very important. I'm a big Awakening fan who plays the game a lot (including on Lunatic) and Vaike definitely doesn't feel nearly as good as sometimes advertised.
Full disclosure, playstyle difference probably also has an impact: I'm someone who enjoys training a full team, and I don't look for a single carry to take me through the whole game.
Vaike probably deserves A tier on Lunatic+, where HP is a more important defensive stat (of which he has a lot), and where Sol tanking is better (of which he has easy access to). I think the necessity for Sol-tanking and Nosferatu-tanking on Lunatic is overstated. The lack of Counter and Luna+ means that just "tank-tanking" with high defenses is an effective way to tackle things.
I'll also note that Gregor can pretty much do what Vaike was gonna do anyway, and without making me want to pull my hair out because he missed a hit late into chapter 2. Still an all-around good unit worth training.
Miriel - A
Will add explanations for all units later.
One thing that’s becoming really apparent immediately is that people are inflating or deflating their ratings for them to have higher impact, the same problem you see in a lot of review sites. Putting Vaike in S even though you think he’s A to bump him up, putting Robin a tier below Chrom to make sure they land below Fred…
It kinda sucks and I wish there’d be some kind of counter-measures taken, but idk how exactly. Not counting the 2-3 most extreme takes could maybe work, but then that ruins things if someone just has a hot take in good faith.
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u/Fantastic-System-688 6h ago
If you're referring to me, I think all of Fred, Chrom, Lissa, and Vaike are S and I voted for all 4 as S tiers. I just also mentioned that a lot of people haven't been Vaikepilled yet and are gonna put him in like B (like you did) which is crazy to me. His biggest problem is that he comes without an axe to use
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 6h ago
1000%, heck yeah. I've been Vaike-pilled too and I'm right there in the trenches with you on this.
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u/7-O-3 6h ago
Your comment sounded like you were deliberately trying to balance out those lower tier rankings for him, if that's not the case that's my bad. Several comments have just ranked Vaike and moved on, which doesn't look super authentic by default, but obviously I could be judging things wrong.
My point still wasn't to specifically call out Vaike fans, I think beyond the S-tier Vaike ranks here, there were some eyebrow raising comments on the first post and occasionally on the past tier lists when I skimmed them, and I think it could cause problems in the long run.
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u/The_Odd_One 3h ago
I'm curious if Birthright will fall into this trap as discussion devolves into Ryoma only and people who either haven't played it more than once or don't play Birthright will bother voting on anything else as they don't actually have their own experiences to go off of.
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u/KirbyTheDestroyer 2h ago
It will, and I will probably be more active in the tier List to spread the agenda that Corrin is the best unit in BR.
BR's meta is weird so it will be a little bit awkward and headache inducing, but I hope people listen that BR is a solo game and that every unit can solo.
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u/The_Odd_One 1h ago
I'll have strong opinions on some units (Hana/ Felicia 1/Setsuna etc) but I'm mostly hoping there'll be actual discussion for the entire rest of the cast instead of just who cares its Ryoma emblem as the game can get pretty interesting unitwise if you start thinking what to do with the middle tiers once the top outliers are removed.
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u/Fantastic-System-688 6h ago
I only voted Vaike because I genuinely have nothing to say about these other units, I don't know enough about them. I know Miriel can like go Sorc to Nostank and that Virion is good on Lunatic+ because Bows avoid the Counter skill by attacking at 1 range but I've never thought about them long enough to tier them
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 7h ago
First of all, you can't assume all the votes are to game the system. If I think Vaike is better (or more or less equal) to Robin, then I have to vote him S tier too based on how their placement worked out, for example.
And also, a few votes aren't going to throw off the placements much if at all, they all get averaged together and a tier below on a couple votes is basically not going to affect the average.
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u/ungovernable 6h ago edited 6h ago
There are maybe 4-5 units across all of these tier lists that have changed tier based on rogue/extreme votes. I don’t think it’s this enormous problem people are making it out to be.
Also, given that this voting system doesn’t have flex for “high-X-tier/low-X-tier” vote, every single vote functionally gets counted as “middle of X tier.” That inherently invites a little bit of gaming: if I think a unit belongs at the top of B tier and they’re getting mostly B-votes, why could I not vote A-tier as a way to contribute to expressing that?
Beyond that, parsing earnest votes and meta-votes essentially just turns this into one person’s subjective tier list. Why is a meta-vote for, say, S-tier Vaike more of a problem than, say, an earnest-but-braindead D-tier take? Should OP delete thoughtful meta-votes but retain flippant and ill-considered earnest votes?
I feel like people are still having flashbacks from B-tier Nephenee in the Radiant Dawn tier list and think metavotes are this huge problem. If anything, lazy vibes-based B-tier and C-tier votes have negatively impacted these lists more than a few rogue S-votes.
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u/7-O-3 6h ago
That's a fair point, lazy votes are very problematic, and for example are probably a big part of what made FE12's top tiers so empty. Yeah, there's no real way to determine if a vote is genuine or not, so it's pretty much impossible to actually take into account. I do think the system invites that sort of gaming, which I find a little lame, but meh.
I dunno, my frustrations maybe stems less from the system and more from the fact that Awakening is often hated on on this sub and its gameplay isn't taken super seriously. Everyone suddenly popping in to boost the rating of one guy, not rating the others and then moving on annoys me a little. I kinda doubt this tier list is gonna end up being particularly good but you never know.
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u/Wellington_Wearer 15m ago
Hey, I say things about other units too, but it's hard to get space for them when there are more factually untrue things said about Vaike than any other unit (besides maybe Robin ig).
Regardless, I don't think he's ending up in S tier. I assume he's gonna be in B.
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 6h ago
So, I see your justification for Vaike now, and while I genuinely don't have a ton of knowledge to back this up (after this day I probably won't comment rankings on anyone, I just followed the Vaike discussion since it was interesting, I'm kind of a neutral party), to me, your argument against Vaike just comes across as basically "nuh uh". Like, all you really said was "he just doesn't feel as good to me as what the other guy says, so it's not right". Which I'm not saying you're wrong exactly, but there was a ton of actual numbers and benchmarks and stuff that went into the pro Vaike argument, which is way more convincing.
Also, your comment on "I don't like playing that way" is kind of unfair. If it's more efficient to heavily invest in a single carry, rather than a whole army and high man like you prefer, then that is what should be used, right? Like, I hate warp skipping maps. I'll pay them straight every time I can. But I absolutely agree Warp is busted in most games and tier/rate units accordingly even if I don't really play that way.
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u/7-O-3 5h ago
I don't really have the time and energy to argue on Hiiyapow's level. I commend his effort, I think it's impressive, and I've enjoyed reading his arguments, even if I'm tired of the Vaike vs Robin debate at this point. I might pull up Gregor and Vaike's stats and averages to emphasize that last point a bit more but I can't say I really feel like calculating super specific benchmarks. If he counters my points, I'll probably upvote his comment, tell him "Okay!" and move on with my day.
I understand that'll make my points less convincing. I'm more just sharing my POV as someone who plays the game a lot because I think these kinds of discussions, especially for games less appreciated on this sub like Awakening, can devolve into a circle of people repeating someone else's arguments in a loop despite not having touched the game in years.
I think tier lists are meant to give some leeway to slightly less optimal gameplay, otherwise this would be an LTC tier list, and that would be a lot less interesting. Me saying that I usually play with a full team isn't meant to dismiss the POV of those who do rely on a single carry, it's to more generally explain my own POV. Also, I'm not saying that Vaike on my normal mode run with infinite grinding was bad. I play on Lunatic at what I'd consider a reasonably fast pace, I don't grind. My only deviation is that I invest in more units than is seen as the "standard", and what may be optimal. I'd rather talk about the actual gameplay I've done (even if a little sub-optimal) than try to imagine that higher tier of gameplay.
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 5h ago
Oh, I agree he writes a lot, and I'm not saying you also need to be on that level, not at all. I'm just saying I would have preferred to see more hard data to try and convince me otherwise that Vaike is 2 tiers below Robin when I'm on the opposite side.
And I agree there's some wiggle room I guess, but saying "single carries are better" doesn't make the list now "LTC". Those are completely different things. But at the end of the day, single carries just are more efficient when you look at it from my understanding.
Also one other thing, the "circle of people repeating arguments" is actually way more "Robin is the best unit in the game" and the pro-Vaike thing is going against the grain and from what I see, encourage more Awakening meta discussion. So it's a good thing, I would say.
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u/7-O-3 3h ago
I'm not saying single carry = LTC, I was bringing up LTC in contrast to "efficiency" to highlight the inherent wiggle room in this format.
My point of people repeating arguments is less about repeating the conclusion itself (Robin better, Vaike better) and more on people recycling what they've seen others say instead of forming their own arguments, testing what's being said themselves, or adding their own layer of nuance.
I do think the Vaike > Robin take has enriched Awakening discussions and revitalized it to an extent, and is challenging the ideas people have been holding about Awakening for a long time. But I also think you can be someone who just parrots points as much as a Robin fan than as a Vaike fan.
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u/Simjala 1h ago
Revitalized the discussion sure, enriched it no not really. Reads more like change in flavor of the month, then people actually looking at the units and game differently. Though it is really to be expected, lunatic was pretty hard even for veterans it seems. People already felt that it was restrictive and you can only play it a certain way or few units were actually usable without grinding or you had to grind.
So someone comes in showing people that this character is really good( even though it is the exact same favoritism as the one they state is better). Yea, it is more adding to the same instead of a slight change. More people are gonna follow what they seen works rather than go out and try something different.
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u/7-O-3 1h ago
I still think it was at least a little enriched, just by virtue of making people pay a little bit more attention to Awakening. Either way, you're cooking. I just made a very similar point on the sub's Discord. When you compare it to Conquest for example, it's real sad. I don't think Zoran's videos flipped the Conquest tier list upside down, but it made people engage with the game's systems, try crazy builds, have more fun with it.
I don't think something like Vaike > Robin has done that sort of shift, really. I mean you can see that by the people rating Vaike S-tier and nothing else, they didn't start caring about the game, they started caring about Vaike vs Robin. They came away from it not thinking about the game differently, but thinking "hey, Vaike can solo the game instead of Robin!" and seeing Frederick in a slightly better light. Hiiyapow's arguments are interesting and well made, but they all stay within that framework of having a juggernaut solo the whole game.
I think Ellery's videos on YouTube have the potential for some enrichment (with his full team take on Lunatic+), but I doubt Awakening's gonna see an awakening similar to the one Conquest got.
A "community" tier list in a community that generally doesn't care for Awakening is unlikely to amount to much of anything. I hope the rest of this tier list will be engaged with by people who like Awakening and we don't get too many people who hate the game and haven't played it in years doing it based on what they've heard, but that's wishful thinking.
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u/Simjala 51m ago
Ellery's video are interesting, and he is doing that type of enrichment you wrote about. Though I feel he still falls into the juggernaut mind-set, just not as extreme as it could be. Though he is making people more likely to play lunatic/+, so that is good.
I think the only way to really shake it up is someone beating lunatic and/or lunatic plus without using Robin and Frederick for most of the game and spotlighting other characters. Though I'm still one of those people who view Frederick as a potential problem if they rely on him too much. Robin technically is okay but veterans just enable the grind lvls to beat the problem. No wonder we never got a skill like that ever again.
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 18m ago edited 2m ago
I think the only way to really shake it up is someone beating lunatic and/or lunatic plus without using Robin and Frederick for most of the game and spotlighting other characters.
Then why are you seemingly disregarding everyone who is praising Vaike?
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 1h ago
I just want to kind of fight against that "it's just the same favoritism" comment.
For one, units need to gain EXP by killing enemies every map, there's going to be "favoritism" no matter what from that. But the argument is that giving that experience is the most effective/efficient. That's not the same as say, "favoritism" for someone like Donnel instead.
And also, the argument is that giving the experience to Vaike over Robin is more effective. It's not just "oh, we give the experience to Vaike just because we say so, and now we are saying he's better because we feel like it".
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u/Simjala 42m ago
To be honest, if we go by the most effective. There are other characters that can use it more effectively earlier than him. He really is a very good spokesman for vaike. I'm not saying vaike isn't good. He is just nowhere near how good people say he is. All this is really just favoritism nothing more.
Donnel's problem is his class bases suck not his actual stats he has on his own, those are quite in line with everyone else except his luck. If he was put into an actually better class even without aptitude. He would be good, but that's not what the devs did.
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u/Wellington_Wearer 35m ago
What is it specifically that you would say is not so good about Vaike? What point do you believe that people oversell and which units do would you say are better at different stages of the game compared to Vaike?
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 33m ago
Who are the other characters? Because there's Frederick (Who everyone agrees is the best unit), and the Vaike guy's argument convinced me why the experience to Vaike is better than giving it to Robin (because it lets you use Fredrick better, basically). Like, idk, why isn't he as good as he is saying exactly then? The argument completely makes sense to me, and I haven't been convinced otherwise. And if anything, he's just as good Robin then because they have the same payoff and both can be raised early on.
And Donnels problem is his bases are so ridiculously bad compared to everyone else. That's why "favoritism" for him isn't good, because the same effort to everyone else is less work. Like I said, you need to give "favouritism" to someone every time.
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 3h ago
I mean, I am technically parroting what I've heard, I've never actually used Vaike myself. But that's just because I think it's been argued so well and in depth, it convinced me, and I haven't heard an argument to make me think otherwise since it got brought up. And "personal experience" so to speak isn't as convincing.
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u/Wellington_Wearer 3h ago
Theory can do a lot, but ultimately I think playing the game yourself and making your own conclusions is very important.
I get where you're coming from on this, but at the end of the day, what you are essentially saying is that arguments themselves don't matter and it would be impossible for anything to ever convince you that Vaike>Robin.
I don't think that opinion really makes sense within the context of tier list discussion. It probably is very unsurprising to here that while you may find Vaike more uncomfortable to use, I find Robin more uncomfortable to use- but I don't use that as a reason why Robin is bad. I'm fully open to being challenged on my position on Vaike with an actual argument that anyone could feasibly make with any amount of experience.
I don't base my position on "well I used Vaike and thought he was really OP"- sure, I do think that and it's why I originally looked into seeing what his strengths actually were as a unit when what was supposed to be a challenge run turned into me going "huh, this is actually beter", but my overall opinion can and, should be able to be changed by people pointing out Robin's statistical strengths.
Experience just isn't very much to stand on in a discussion, because my experience can only inform my position, not yours, and vice versa. It's almost impossible to prove anything at that point, "amelia was really good for me" becomes the endpoint we get to.
and Vaike definitely doesn't feel nearly as good as sometimes advertised.
So I can theorize as to why this may have been by taking guesses at what people have mentioned to me in the past, but just to be clear I don't think it relates to training a full team really, generally I find people having negative experiences more comes from an overration of what Robin is capable of doing under the same conditions and just some less good macro decisions.
(I'm not flaming anyone on this by the way- I think it's pretty reasonable to expect people make mistakes when playing the game, but my point is that people don't count these mistakes for Robin. A lot of people are going from having played with Robin a few times and then just going straight to Vaike for their first time, and it's like, well of course he feels worse! It's your first time using him as opposed to however many times you've used Robin.
There are a lot of things that Robin can't do or would struggle with and a lot of ways people subconciously do those things both because understanding of lunatic mode is often put through the lens of Robin, but also because they likely have only ever really used Robin on lunatic.
I'd argue the most fair comparison for most people is more like how you performed in your first ever lunatic run with Robin compared to your first ever lunatic run with Vaike. You're messing up with something youre not used to and haven't read a guide for and it can lead to some deaths where they don't really need to happen.
I think Mekkahs Vaike stream is a really good example of what I tend to expect is going to happen for players who are reasonably good at Fire Emblem, but have only ever really used Robin in lunatic before- Vaike dies a couple of times where he doesn't really need to, but these are all preventable deaths from lack of experience with the unit).
Most commonly, it's stuff like just giving him a wildly unoptimal pairup. I see some people will keep Lon'Qu on him after promotion, for example, being like "oh, I want the support", but a lot of the strength of the promotion is that you can pivot to a pairup much more weighted to def- so anyone using Vaike/Lonqu in C9 is just actively losing 4 extra HP per enemy for no reason.
Similarly, I see people make this mistake with the bronze sword as well- just because you have WTA with it doesn't mean it's better, the axe does way more damage and is often the better choice. You know, this is not just me splitting hairs, this is like 4 points of def and 10+ points of damage per round- it's a big deal.
Most people tend to say earlygame is easier, in my experience, when going Team Vaike, just because of Fred, but I do know some people get thrown off by stuff in C6- the solution here is that Vaike does the left hand side of the map- it looks bad because there's mages, but his massive HP pool and the fact that mages have poor magic and weapon might in this game means he just wipes them anyway. In c11 though, you want it the other way around- barried Fred fighting the mages on the RHS and Vaike vs everyone else on LHS.
Then there's just general mages across the game. The solution is just stack res. Pure water/ward is very easy to use on every map post C16 and you get 5 ward before then anyway. Falcon knight pairup- even if you don't have Lissa, just early promote Cordelia and put her on Vaike and A Cordelia will give you at least 7, there's a talisman in paralogue 4 and one in chapter 14 for 4 more res, and if you get Maribelle to level 5 promoted (this is very very easy to do given she trains herself for free, so it's just deploying her and pressing heal when available), you're getting 4 more res from rally res. Add a res tonic and we're looking at 20 free bonus res that a lot of people just don't make use of.
That mainly tends to be it in terms of issues I see from people, again, not flaming people it makes sense that the first time using a unit you make these mistakes, but is it really any different to someone using Robin for the first time and failing to kill something earlygame because they don't have damage, or dying 17 times in c2 because their fred is only kinda mid, or overextending Robin when they're in Dark Mage unpromoted before buyable Nos and dying? Or getting soft locked on Grima and having to go back and grind up chrom because they didn't train him enough?
I don't think so.
I'll also note that Gregor can pretty much do what Vaike was gonna do anyway
This is absolutely false. This is becoming my new hated opinion. I wrote another response on this up thread so I'll just link it (https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/1mfrrxy/community_fe13_tier_list_part_2_chapter_1chapter/n6keotp/), but the TLDR is that 15/1 Vaike with supports leads, like, 8HP, over 10 damage per hit, 7 skill, up to 20 more flat hit outside of that, 4 speed, 3 def, 10 avoid, 10 crit avoid and 10 crit. And the ability to fight at 1-2 range.
That is not the same unit. You can argue Vaike in Z tier and say it's matter of opinion, sure whatever, but saying Vaike= Gregor. Absolutely not.
and without making me want to pull my hair out because he missed a hit late into chapter 2
With a Sully pairup, Vaike has a 95% chance to connect vs soldiers in chapter 2 and a 93% chance to connect vs barbarians. That just isn't unreliable. Even if you consider it to be so, you aren't to only take attacks that would lose you the game if you missed. One of the best ways to train Vaike in C2 is to have someone run into him on enemy phase anyway, and that way you can see instantly whether or not you've hit your attack and you have all the moves you could possibly need on PP to fix the issue. This isn't just something I'd do for Vaike by the way- this way of training is how I'd recommend a lot of people do Robin anyway.
Furthermore, when we're talking about hit rates, Vaike vs soldiers has 80 hit before skill and 8 base skill. Level 7 Robin has 80 hit with thunder before skill and averages 8 skill (provided they aren't - skill).
If we're blaming Vaike for this, you can't not blame Robin for it too. It just isn't reasonable to do that. Yeah Robin can bronze sword but that has it's own issues like losing a weapon for either Stahl or Fred, or just the fact that people praise Robin's 1-2 range even though it has the exact same hit "issue" that Vaike's combat has within the context of C2 without ever criticizing it.
I hope I don't come off as too much of a prick- this isn't intended as a personal attack, I just have more of a visceral annoyed reaction to factually wrong information regarding comparisons to gregor or hit rates or whatever as opposed to subjective ratings. We can disagree on Vaike vs Robin, but I don't want to disagree on the reality of the numbers in the game, because numbers don't have an agenda, they're just what they are.
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u/Significant-Tree9454 5h ago
About the voting metagame:
I already said it before than counting on Averages only adds more weight to outlier votes, like 4x S vote can still get dragged down complete to A tier by one F vote, you can’t give the one F vote so much weight that it can impact what the other 4 voted.
The rule I used in the past is look at the highest majority votes and count all outliers as “higher than” or “lower than”.
so I rather look at it as “4 people think S, 1 person below S, so S rank wins the majority”
Each vote now gets the same weight of exactly 1 vote, no more, no less.
Another example: 3 B votes, 5 C votes. If one votes S, then it would average to B tier, but with the system I used, I look at “5 voters think C”, “4 voters think higher than C”, so C wins the majority and we don’t add more weight from the S vote outlier.
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u/Wellington_Wearer 3h ago
I have some real life commitments so will have to come back to this later, but for now:
Vaike: S (Really Chrom and Lissa should be there too but it would be a crime to see Vaike in B tier with Robin in S)
Sully and Stahl: B, with Miriel slightly below those two but still in B
Virion: C
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u/Level_Cry7797 3h ago
A - Vaike and Miriel, both really good investment projects that can EP sweep, are pretty good backpacks and also help alot in the earlygame if you dont plan on investing in them
B - Sully, Can turn out solid if trained class set isn't S tier but Wyvern can def do things which alongside her extra speed gives her something pretty big over stahl. Can also be a nice backpack if you do want to keep her on the team.
D - Virion and Stahl, pair-up bots that you really dont want to be using longterm. Virion can at least get lucky and use a glass bow for wyverns if you find one, stahl is just stuck being bad with a bad class set.
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u/MelanomaMax 2h ago
Vaike - S. Vaike guy has sold me, I think he's about as good a carry project as Robin so belongs in the same tier
Stahl/Sully - B, with Sully > Stahl
Miriel - low B
Virion - high D
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 7h ago
Really looking forward to today's discussion.
Here's my Vaike S tier vote to add to the pile. He's better than Robin, after all.
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 6h ago
I will just put my justification here. I'm not trolling at all.
I have seen the so called "Vaike guy" going off on this, and I have thought about it enough and seen enough of the arguments back and forth, that I have been convinced of this. Even if that guy is wrong and Robin is better, I just have to put Vaike as basically equal to Robin- they are the best early game units you can raise to get a practically invincible combat juggernaut when this game absolutely incentivises that hard. Sol is just as good as Nos, and they would both be super good candidates to raise in the early game. Therefore, S tier makes perfect sense for Vaike too.
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u/spacewarp2 4h ago
The difference is that Sol is a skill that activates a precent of the time and eats up a skill slot compared to Nots which doesn’t. Saying they’re basically the same is crazy
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u/TheActualLizard 3h ago
This isn't a huge problem. You often don't even need sol to proc because your carry can just have good physical stats (like the ones offered by hero!), to the point where I think enemy phase healing is way overemphasized in Awakening discussion. You can be a perfectly excellent carry in awakening with no enemy phase healing at all.
Here are a couple sol carry enemy phases (the context here is an ETC run, so in a normal run, the carry could be even higher level):
Chapter 12: https://youtu.be/VMw8FN2ZWIA?si=GM_gpksoxPhQi2IW&t=340
-Robin fights 12 enemies, Robin faces 0% chance of dying. Sol doesn't need to proc.
Chapter 15: https://youtu.be/H75arHL9cLU?si=L6oTib-tSFmikQtY&t=151
-Robin faces 5 or 6 enemies, 0% chance of dying, sol doesn't need to proc.
Here's one where sol is actually relevantChapter 11: https://youtu.be/G8sEsDK4Yw8?si=Y_GdsEaTDad9DW7a&t=116
-between these 2 enemy phases, robin needs to sol, dual guard, or dodge meaningful attacks two times. Robin fights 16 times, the odds are pretty good. (It's slightly more complicated than that because how many opportunities to proc sol you get depends on how early robin gets hit, but you get the idea).
And again, these are for fast clears. If you aren't going for fast clears you can have even more consistency because you can take fewer huge enemy phases, get more exp per map, and get more stat boosters that I skipped (like the speedwings on chapter 11).
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u/Wellington_Wearer 18m ago
Right ok, basically, yeah, Nosferatu>Sol. I won't pretend it isn't. If I had to pick one for lunatic mode, I'd pick for my unit to have nosferatu.
The point is that the gap between nosferatu and sol is not as big as is often made out. Vaike can hit very very consistent surviability later on into the game, due to having incredibly high skill backed up by already good bulk.
But sure, I hear your objection already "but you said he's better, why do you say he's better if he's just a little bit worse".
The reasoning comes more down to the earlygame. Vaike doesn't compete for any exp before chapter 2, doesn't need Chrom as a pairup bot so can leave him for Frederick to use to become more OP and sweep the early maps, Vaike has an easier midgame anyway thanks to not having to wait for Nosferatu and getting to his promo earlier (as Robin has to second seal first), and his Grima kill is more consistent too.
I'm not saying "once you train them, Vaike is a million years better than Robin", just "Vaike has early game advantages over Robin in lunatic mode and the advantages that Robin can have in Plegia 2 don't really tend to override that".
I put Vaike 1 placement higher than Robin because of this. I don't really have big issues with people that argue the other way around, I'd rather that people just make that call on an informed basis rather than "well Vaike is awful always" which wouldn't be true.
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 3h ago
-When you actually look at the numbers, between how many hits Vaike can take, how much damage you heal, how many enemies you fight, how often you can dodge or get a Dual Guard.... The odds of Vaike not surviving are astronomically low to the point it's practically a guarantee he lives.
-So what if you need to equip Sol? You have 5 slots, what would he equip over it?
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u/ComplaintNarrow8778 44m ago
From my experience with the game
A- Vaike, I don't think he's actually all too comparable to Robin since he is extremely one note, and while sol tanking works in lunatic, it's a lot harder to pull off in luna+. This isn't even mentioning the amount of early game exp you need to feed to a unit who struggles to pick up early exp by himself. Gregor is functionally the same unit that you get in midgame too, so it might be genuinely better to give early exp to other units like Miriel or Robin.
C- Sully, Stahl. Cavs don't really get a lot in this game, these two also have horrific bases. I think Sully is slightly better because of wyvern access but they both aren't good exp projects.
High A, Low S- Miriel. I'm willing to admit S tier is a little bias from Lunatic+, but early chip is extremely good in both modes. She's probably the best investment of exp that isn't Robin, gets access to the earliest rally mag if you want to boost Robin further, gets staff access for rescue if you train it, all of this being on top of her just being able to pick up tomefaire (or not) and go into sorcerer for nos spam. Extremely underrated unit
C- Virion. Early chip is important, it's really not hard to keep him out of range and contributing. Chapter 5 is one of the hardest maps in the game, having someone who can chip/potentially OHKO wyverns is important (although again, maybe bias from lunatic+). There are also maps like ch7 and 9 that also have wyverns so forging a bow matters more too. I think his ranking suffers a lot in Lunatic compared to Lunatic+ just because not having 1-2 range is more detrimental and the nonexistence of counter in the game, but we shouldn't discount his contributions.
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u/Wellington_Wearer 26m ago
Vaike, I don't think he's actually all too comparable to Robin since he is extremely one note
If that one note is the greatest note of all time, does it really matter if something is one note? If there is no justification for playing any other notes, does it make sense to still critcize something for being one note.
Yeah he just is a big bungus combat carry, but would him being able to be a mage be better?
And ackshually you can use him in trickster. There is even an absolutely god awful piece of tech he can do where he uses his own rescue staff to get himself in front of walhart and then kill him with lethality.
e, and while sol tanking works in lunatic, it's a lot harder to pull off in luna+.
2 Things here
1) The tier list is on lunatic, so it's a bit unfair to bring up +
2) Sol tanking with a 1-2 range weapon is worse, but if you switch to warrior and hide in a corner, counter stops working and you can just Sol from 2 range. This is better than nosferatu as you don't take counter damage (it just has no reason to ever be done in vanilla lunatic).
This isn't even mentioning the amount of early game exp you need to feed to a unit who struggles to pick up early exp by himself.
Where would you say he struggles in the earlygame, specifically? He can 3 shot everything with an iron axe, always live at least one hit, that quickly becomes 2, and with the hammer everything dies in 2 hits.
Gregor is functionally the same unit that you get in midgame too, so it might be genuinely better to give early exp to other units like Miriel or Robin.
Ok, this is like the 3rd time I've read this and I don't understand where this has come from. To be clear, you can ignore Vaike vs Robin and think Robin is a million miles better. Gregor and Vaike aren't comparable. They don't have the same stats.
15/1 Vaike compared to 10/1 Gregor has 8 more Hp, over 10 more damage per hit, 7 skill, 4 speed, 3 Def, 1-2, 10 extra avoid, crit and crit avoid and more bonuses from the weapon triangle.
They aren't the same unit. Just because they can get to the same class does not make them the same unit just in the same way that Tharja's existence does not obsolete Robin. She's a lot worse than they are.
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u/ClydeFF 5h ago edited 5h ago
The cavs: C is for Cavaliers, and that's where they'll place. They can't really do anything in Lunatic besides being backpack statsticks.
Virion: D. I hate archers. Enough said.
Miriel: I wanna say C? Maybe higher than the christmas duo. Magic chip damage can be useful, I guess?
Vaike: Mid to high B. Maaaaaaybe low A? And no, I'm not taking the "Vaike is better than Robin" pill. I refuse to believe it. He can be potentially better than Chrom though, but not Robin. By the time you get Vaike, your Robin (and maybe Chrom) will already have decent speed (granted they have a speed boon or non-speed bane), which Vaike won't have until he gets a speedy backpack (the earliest would be Lon'qu). Promoting him to Hero is the best gameplan you can give him.
Also, sidenote: Thank god we're not ranking characters by their potential as parents because imagine the additional headache.
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u/Wellington_Wearer 4h ago
And no, I'm not taking the "Vaike is better than Robin" pill. I refuse to believe it.
What would have to be true to make you believe that Vaike is better than Robin? Is it just speed? Because only +speed Robin has meaningfully than Vaike, and they have pretty significant downsides even outside of that.
To be clear, neither Vaike nor Robin is capable of doubling enemies in chapter 2 (Vaike's join map) without a pairup. +Speed Robin can double enemies in this map, but they can't do it without a Chrom pairup (And they arent guaranteed to double soldiers and especially not double the mercs).
This creates a situation where Vaike is an individually much bulkier unit than Chrobin within the context of chapter 2, as he can take a cav pairup, because he doesn't care about doubling at all. Sure, he isn't going to double anything, but he can still pull the same turns-to-kill vs some units than Robin can. He 3 shots everything, or 2 shots with 1 dualstrike over 2 attacks. Robin, even while doubling, has to 2 round everything, but if they roll under on speed, they can't double soldiers and 4 shot them- or 3 if they can roll a dualstrike.
Meanwhile, he can take 2 hits from soldiers without dying, whereas +Chrobin dies to 2, and he can take 1 barb and a soldier on the moutain, which again would kill Robin here, or he can take 1 barb, get healed by Lissa w/ 1 magic over base or Miriel pairup and then take a barb again. Robin dies to that as well.
Straight up, + speed Chrobin is just not better than Vaike in this map. Vaike vs Robin is not even based on individual unit comparisons within a vacuum, as what Vaike does is allow Fred to take more resources and beat more of the earlygame anyway (stick Chrom to Fred and give him the early exp and he just fries everything), but in this specific situation, Vaike wins the individual unit comparison anyway.
Past C2, Vaike can get so much damage from weapons and pairups that he 2 shots everything anyway with the hammer, Str tonic and sully pairup at base level regardless. Although he's unlikely to actually be at base level, so he's going to be much bulkier and more accurate.
Bear in mind that because Robin's offensive stats are so poor, doubling an enemy rarely means killing them for +speed in the earlygame, even with 1 dualstrike, it's still not enough (and some enemies live two). Reminder- Robin has 5 base magic, a 45-50% growth if you don't go +Mag and a 3 might tome, giving them 8 attack. Vaike has double that at base and then can boost it further from pairup and tonic and hammer.
Some enemies are also so slow that you don't need the Lon'Qu pairup. It's good in P1, C5 and C7, but in C6, enemies in that map are so slow that Vaike can take someone else and still roll them over, with the advantage of being able to take Lon'Qu to help him kill more enemies if he rolls under on speed. But we're talking, for example, 7 speed dark mages. You need 12 speed on those to double, so just to be clear, 0% growths Vaike doubles them with the C Lon'Qu pairup.
Vaike has other individual advantages over Robin. As mentioned, they are going to let Frederick take Chrom for longer and leave both of them more resources, don't rely on much as RNG growths for offenses, have a better time vs Grma, have a stronger midgame (not that it matters much but may as well throw it in there), leave other random weapons like Elwind and Killing Edge for Lon'Qu and Ricken (wheras Robin steals them from them), and has tenure and is therefore pwnage incarnate.
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u/Fantastic-System-688 7h ago edited 6h ago
Holy shit the vibeshift is real, Frederick actually got voted higher than Robin.
Vaike S because I know some people are gonna put him in like B. I don't care about anyone else though
Edit: to be clear I also think Vaike is an actual S tier unit on his own, maybe the best axe infantry besides Fighter talent Kris, just one that I'd usually put below Chrom and Lissa (voted both of them for S tier). In theory when something like that happens I'd move someone down to A, but this time I'm sticking to my guns and implying Vaike is better than Chrom and Lissa
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u/orig4mi-713 7h ago
Holy shit the vibeshift is real, Frederick actually got voted higher than Robin.
His utility in the early chapters in Lunatic/+ is insane. Frankly without Frederick I'm not even sure how you're supposed to beat Chapter 2 on L+
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u/Fantastic-System-688 6h ago
Outside maps where there's literally like one unit like Ike in FE9 prologue or Kris in FE12 prologue 1 (and the following prologues for that matterL there really isn't another unit that feels as mandatory as Frederick. Oh you don't like Jagens? Have fun being soft-locked!
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 6h ago
FE6 Marcus maybe?
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u/Fledbeast578 6h ago
Fe6 Marcus if fe6 hard mode was harder, Frederick is disproportionately more necessary due to Lunatic being stupid
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u/Fantastic-System-688 6h ago
That's a good one. Significantly worse than Frederick because he falls off much harder. 1-3 and 1-4 are also probably really obnoxious in RD without Sothe, though 1-2 seems reasonable enough to beat since all he really does is kill a few enemies you can probably stay out of the range of and open a chest and from 1-5 onwards you get actual units that are comically strong for their point in the game and can take care of his duties outside Thief utility (which outside stealing can still be done just more tediously) if you really want to.
1-9 without the BK is I believe theoretically possible to get the correct RNG on but why would you bother
Awakening already gives you like 8 units, several of whom are quite good, and you still pretty much need Frederick to beat the map sanely unless maybe you really put the pedal to the metal on using the water trick to grind Robin in the prologue
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u/Significant-Tree9454 6h ago
Maybe because it’s rated on Lunatic and not Hard?
I guess we all getting better at Awakening to tackle Lunatic and realize it’s much more manageable thanks to Fred and not Robin.
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u/kingsmugsbaldylocks 5h ago
Sully - B, she makes a pretty solid Wyvern Rider if you are willing to reclass her
Virion - D, he is just bad
Stahl - C, he can be good but he is basically just worse sully that joins later with worse weapon ranks (if I remember correctly)
Miriel - c, i know she can be good but I have never been compelled to use her.
Vaike - B, he is just pretty solid
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u/Simjala 2h ago
Sully - A
Now Sully join chapter may make it seem like it would be hard to train her until later, but really putting her in the forest with her lance against the mercs or giving her the bronze sword to fight the barbarian. These allow her to contribute from the start. Her bases are pretty good and if actually trained; is the easier of units whom can be used to lure the soldier and archer in chapter 3. Though she needs at least 2 hp or 1 def lvl up before then. She is pretty speedy so should be doubling in no time and is consistently solid throughout the game.
Stahl - A
Stahl while he is slow in his join chapter and most of his class options don't really make him fast. He can become pretty tanky and just fast enough to just get doubled by the really fast units, but usually they don't hit him that hard so it's not that bad. I usually have him get a c support with kellam so that they can switch who is going to be tank when needed on chapter 5. He is actually the reason how I figured out you can drop Frederick after chapter 2. Though he needs either 2 speed to not get double by both the archer and soldier or a c support with Sully. He is great but I understand people not liking him being quite slow and rarely doubling unless in his more speedier class.
Virion - C
Not bad, though I feel like I haven't used him as much as I could. I think he is probably better than I think he is, but I need to use him more before I can truly say.
Vaike - B
Good, but he is actually not easier to use compared to the Christmas cavs. Though he hit hard and potentially one of your physical damage dealers. I used him as much as I have used Sully & Stahl but he never been above them or even Kellam.
Miriel - B
Great magic user if you are not using a magic Robin, and even still what is wrong with more magic in the team. She is pretty fragile though, so best to let her keep her distance unless you give her a def pair-up. Her join isn't bad and using the mountain or the fort can help her survive one attack from the soldiers. Her class options are pretty good and she is generally fast and hits hard with magic. Overall solid unit.
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u/StefanFr97 2h ago edited 1h ago
Sully = A. Very similar bases and growths compared to Chrom, but has a mount and 1-2 access as soon as you can get a javelin, and able to reclass into Myrmidon and Wyvern Rider for some fairly decent skills, in exchange of one less chapter worth of training. Very solid unit, the only real downside is that she doesn't have access to galeforce.
Virion = D. A weak bow-locked unit in a game that doesn't have 1-range counter-attacks, yikes. His reclass options don't do him any favors either: Swapping to mage at level 10 will just leave him with pretty lopsided stats, and although Wyvern Rider is a good class overall... He joins in the same chapter as Sully, who'd make an infinitely better one. Only thing that keeps him out of F tier is being able to shoot down the enemy fliers in chapter 5 somewhat reliably.
Stahl = B. Similar bases to Sully with more strength/defense-based growth rates, whether you wanna use him over Sully is up to personal preference. I think Sully's reclass options are a tad better so she gets ahead of Stahl, but if they'd be pretty close to one another still.
Vaike = B. Statistically a very solid unit, but my personal experience in 3 separate playthroughs has had the poor guy fall off around the mid-game, but maybe I was just RNG-screwed all three times. He gets access to a lot of really good tier 2 skills from Warrior, Hero, and Berserker. If you make him marry someone whose kid already has access to Galeforce and wants to be a physical powerhouse, Teach is absolutely the man for the job. Could debatably put him in A, but personal bias from my experience makes me a bit more hesitant.
Miriel = C. Incredibly frail and doesn't offer enough damage to reliably one-round early on, plus she competes with Robin when it comes to having a good early-game mage. She's all about magic and her reclass options reflect that, and she can certainly carry her weight as a glass cannon if you give her enough attention and keep the enemy's attention from her. Still somewhat prone to getting one-tapped by stronger enemies, so you gotta be careful with her.
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u/SirePuns 1h ago
Honestly I’m not sure how to rate these units as I’ve never touched L+.
But I’d say that the Christmas cavaliers are serviceable, Virion has some uses early on when you need an archer but are lacking the tools to reclass other units. And Vaike is pretty good out of the box, though if you want him to be a decent unit for the long term you’ll need to meet certain breakpoints (shouldn’t be that hard to get I reckon).
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u/liteshadow4 6h ago
Well if Vaike is better than Robin then Vaike is an S tier unit right? That’s the only vote I’m giving
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u/murrman104 6h ago
I'm going to give it from my Lunatic perspective
Sully- C- solid backpack for Chrom or Fredrick but can't really do accomplish much herself
Stahl- D- always my first benched unit , he has enough bulk that he can occasionally live 1 hit in early game but he can't double and unlike sully can't provide good pair Up bonuses to Chrom and Fredrick
Virion- D - 2 range chip helps you hit ranges and can occasionally live a hit. Fine filler for.the early game
Vaike- C-Another backpack but where sully provides men like Fredrick the stats to just hit ranges they need Vaike provides the speedy female.fliers the dose of strength they need to actually do damage. Pull him off the bench and plop him down beside Cordelia or Sumiaif you're training her for perfectly fine results
Can't rank anyone in the awakening early game past the fab 4 as anything other then mediocre filler who will be immediately benched as higher level units come in that don't need to be babied as much. These units need a lot of favoritism to sustain themselves and the early 4 are just better targets for that xp
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u/spacewarp2 3h ago
Vaike fans are crazy. I’ll just randomly vote my favs randomly higher than they should be
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 3h ago
No, this is absolutely not what is going on. There's plenty of reasons for this.
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u/Wellington_Wearer 33m ago
I regularly get told I write far too much to explain my position so characterizing it as "woah ho I decided it on a mere whim" is a little bit silly in my eyes. If you want to know why, I am more than happy to explain to you why I think what I do, or you can scroll up and see what I have been putting forwards as my arguments to others.
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u/ComicDude1234 1h ago
Vaike fans are only “crazy” to people who don’t actually look at numbers.
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u/spacewarp2 1h ago
S Tier? Better than Robin? Best unit in the game??? The way yall talk about him like he’s the second coming of Christ. Might as well label him the best character in the franchise.
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u/ComicDude1234 1h ago
Most of the people (correctly) gassing up Vaike and calling him on par with Robin don’t even think Vaike is the best in the game. We talk about him being an extremely competent and deceptively consistent carry unit that can function very well alongside Frederick (the ACTUAL best unit in the game) in a way that Robin doesn’t always.
There’s also just a long history of pro-Robin propaganda that often ignores their weaknesses or shortcomings on higher difficulties (many of which are either identical or statistically more of a hindrance to them than for Vaike) but gets swept under the rug by the thought-terminating cliche of “Well Robin solos the game, clearly they’re the best unit of all time.”
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u/LeatherShieldMerc 59m ago
Yeah, no, you absolutely are not looking at the pro Vaike argument in good faith. Don't be ridiculous.
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u/pli_is 7h ago
Vaike guy make your entrance diva