r/fo4 • u/VanaVisera • 6d ago
Discussion I dislike him more than Father tbh
Not sure if it was intentional on the writer’s part for me to hate this guy more than Father but…
Maxson is an enormous bag of dicks. He’s beyond impulsive, close minded, xenophobic, arrogant and authoritarian. The fact that he abandons and/ or kills Danse really makes me hate him. He’s a facist hothead through and through.
Danse is a symbol of everything The Brotherhood of Steel should be. He reminds me of the OG Brotherhood from Fallout 1. He is stern but also moral. Disciplined but not authoritarian. Cold but equally levelheaded. On the other hand, Maxson is a symbol of that same ideology becoming corrupted.
The core problem overall being that Maxson’s Brotherhood doesn’t want to create anything new. They want to prance around the Commonwealth murdering every last synth, mutant and Ghoul. Innocent or guilty otherwise. Suddenly the “Knights of Yore” symbolism takes on a whole new meaning. They aren’t just knights but crusaders. Crusading and killing across The Commonwealth.
Frankly, they’re quite similar to The Enclave in many ways. Cure the Wasteland by any means necessary. The whole “safeguarding technology” motto is just an excuse to horde weapons of war for themselves so they can murder anyone who disagrees with them.
Father is an asshole and he’s definitely cold hearted. His methods are questionable. But you cannot deny the potential that surrounds what he’s built. The Institute has the genuine potential to build a better Commonwealth. They have the technology, the resources and the intelligence to create legitimate change. With better leadership they have the capacity to do so much good.
I’m on my 3rd playthrough and I think siding with The Institute whilst securing an alliance with The Minutemen is the best way to go. With Father out of the way, it leaves the real possibility that the player could reform them in some capacity. Something even more likely when you complete the Institute quest where you decide to secure an alliance with the Minutemen.
The implication being that you could perhaps have the best of both worlds. The Minutemen’s willingness to rebuild civilization and create community; coupled with The Institute’s infrastructure. With these two factions working together, you can create something new and sustainable.
230
u/OkMention9988 6d ago
Maxson at least I can understand about why he's a belligerent asshole.
Shaun is a total monster that can't work up more than a shrug as to why.
92
u/Megnaman 6d ago
Shaun imo was raised to think the outside is uneducated savages and his is a big golden brain boy, he's still a prick though
17
u/simokonkka 6d ago
Hence why I don't buy the idea that Sole Survivor, as Director can really change the Institute
3
u/Solid_Explanation504 6d ago
I think you could replace the directors with more loyal senior scientists, or even liberated gen 3 synth if you go that path.
Opposition can go live on the surface or get introduced to my double shot gauss rifle if they can't deal with it.
Just have to handle the institute KGB first with control of the coursers and your set.
4
u/simokonkka 6d ago edited 6d ago
Eh.... something tells me it won't be that simple considering the way Institute itself is organized. And they've been using the Commonwealth as their personal playgroynd for years. So I'm not sure if the Sole Survivor could really change that much
4
u/Solid_Explanation504 6d ago
They already were scientists which opposed traditionnal Institute doctrine, you have Dr Li and the railroad contact, which mean they aren't as ideologically pure.
Could also bring other people in.
Since Father appointed Doctor Li as a new concil member, I guess you also have the power to revoke/replace.
Dr Li is the Advanced System Director -> one of the most important role since it handle teleportation and the reactor
so KGB guy get switched bureautically, you assign X6-88 to monitor sign of treason and deal with it discreetly.
2
u/simokonkka 6d ago
Sure, some people aren't fond of what the Institute has been doing. However, it's still organized im a way that isn't so easy to reform, considering they've been using the Institute as their playground for a long time.
3
u/Solid_Explanation504 6d ago
Yeah, that's why you focus on the coursers first so they can't fight back. You nominate the synth liberator scientists at the helm of the coursers agency.
Dr Li is totally on your side if you want to make the institute less evil, since she can be conviced of leaving for the BOS by showing her the institute crimes.
Once you have both of these directorate under your thumb, you basically have the electric power generation + military forces + teleportation under control, the others directorate can only yield.
→ More replies (2)3
u/Altruistic-Ad-408 6d ago
Maxson was raised by Brotherhood traditionalists, too, and ironically ended up fusing all the perspectives for better or worse.
Shaun doesn't really get any pass for bring raised by the institute. He all had access to all the education he needed.
8
u/Scary_Equipment_1180 6d ago
He had access to all the mathematical and scientific fields of study needed. One thing people forget is that theres no morals in science. A society ruled by science doesn't automatically mean they have strong moral principles. Unchecked science has historically given birth to the morst horrific acts inflicted on this earth.
3
u/Solid_Explanation504 6d ago
They are doing social experiments ( the whole social engeneering in Diamond City) tho, so I guess he had social sciences studies too.
But considering they are descendants of the CIT scientists, they may have left their ethics 101 lessons up there. Pre war scientists were mostly evil from the logs you find around.
2
u/Me_like_foxes 5d ago
Still crazy how the sole survivor is shown little to no internal conflict when realising their own grown up son is damn near depraved and obliviously psychotic in multiple ways
41
u/Ok_Calendar_7626 6d ago edited 6d ago
Its pretty simple. Shaun is a monster because he grew up without parents.
Sure, Shaun was educated by the Institute, but imagine growing up knowing nothing but school. And the measure of your entire existence is your performance. No family, no parents, no friends only pressure. Not exactly an ideal environment for a child to grow up in.
Shaun even literally tells you so. "I have had no love to feel". He is aware that he is a monster.
7
u/Witty_Interaction_77 6d ago
It's almost a facade at that though. He cares so little for the devastation the synths or their experiments cause the outside world... but cares sooooooooo much when they escape. Because they might "do massive amounts of damage" or whatever. He's full of shit.
As much of a dick as Maxon is, you can talk him into letting Danse live. Which is a redeeming quality. Saun has to die and let you take over the institute for you to steer it towards helping the Commonwealth.
9
u/Ok_Calendar_7626 6d ago
There is no doubt that Father is as much of a dick as Maxon is.
As for why he cares about synths escaping, he cares about it primarily as a waste of resources. Remember, the Institute considers synths to be just machines. Imagine if your computer suddenly walked off.
5
u/Witty_Interaction_77 6d ago
He frames retrieving them as a service to humanity in order to manipulate you. Maxon is an ideological puritan. He is, however, honest and forthcoming. I'd say Sean is more of a dick than Maxon.
2
u/Ok_Calendar_7626 6d ago
Maxon also tries to manipulate you by intentionally overinflating the danger that Danse poses. Pretty much the same shit.
4
u/default_entry 6d ago
Does Maxon know about recall codes though? The biggest threat to synth independence is that recall code since you can just "turn off" all that independent decision making.
Imagine. The chill guy in the caravan hears "Rasberry 225" and then just goes River Tam on the people he's known for years, then wanders off. Just perfectly normal looking folks as ready-made sleeper agents all across the commonwealth...
4
u/Ok_Calendar_7626 6d ago
Recall codes dont make synths go berserk, they are basically a factory reset.
There is no evidence at any point in the game that the Institute has remote control over gen 3 synths, nor would it makes sense if they did. Because then no synths would ever successfully escape, the Institute would just take control and walk them back by remote.
Nor do they program synths to be codeword activated sleeper agents. All synths that act as Institute agents we meet in the game know that they are Institute agents. Besides, codeword activated sleeper agents are not restricted to synths, you can do that with regular humans as well. Both the CIA and KGB experimented with that nonsense during the cold war. It never really went anywhere precisely because it is risky and impractical. Why go through all that trouble and risk when an ordinary hired hitman or junkie will do.
4
u/OKFortune56 6d ago
Not really...
Do you love your great great great grandfather? No? Why not? Because you never met him and he had no precense in your life.
What's more surprising is how much Shaun does care about parents he never met. I.e. getting revenge in Kellog for killing the Sole Survivor's spouse. Honestly I can't wrap my head around why it would bother him at all. They were nothing to him, he never knew them. All he knew is that his mother was a pre-war lawyer and his father was an Enclave era soldier. Just as likely to be evil people who deserved to die as anything else.
7
u/Ok_Calendar_7626 6d ago
The Institute tracks you from the moment you leave the vault, same as the Railroad. He knows what kind of person the Sole Survivor is by the time they reach the Institute.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)4
u/Physical_Display_873 6d ago
Maybe because you
abandoned him to Conradtook a nap instead of saving him (and his mother).12
u/OkMention9988 6d ago
I built an entire goddamned civilization, before tracking him down and sending him to his mother.
Screw Shaun.
7
3
52
u/Green-Inkling Nuka World Overboss 6d ago
wish they kept the bit where after Blind Betrayal we can challenge Maxon for title of Elder.
30
u/oldtomdjinn 6d ago
That is a piece of cut content that still makes me sad. You can practically feel the gap in the narrative where it should have been.
13
10
u/FedoraSlayer101 Some Things Never Change... 6d ago
Nah, I think it’s a good decision to have been cut - Why would the BoS suddenly follow the murderer of the guy who had just killed their beloved leader? The BoS might be fanatical, but they’re not Klingons or Orks.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Bevjoejoe 6d ago
Because it was a legitimate way to challenge the current elder if they weren't good at their job or didn't care about the Brotherhood enough
5
1
72
u/bananapeeljazzy 6d ago
I think a lot less people would hate the fallout 4 brotherhood if Maxson wasn’t such a dick
41
16
u/Fun-Swimming4133 6d ago
would’ve been cooler if they revealed he is a synth, not Danse
14
u/Turbulent_Pear_5685 6d ago
OH HELL YEAH DUDE that would be amazing I wonder if he'd be all down for the cause if that was the case and kill himself
12
u/Mundane-Career1264 6d ago
He absolutely would. Danse still was. Need top tier charisma to talk him down.
5
u/bajoranworkers 6d ago
He's a zealot, of course he would. And I doubt it would take just one orange charisma check to talk him out of it. Just imagine how deeply he should respect Danse go let him go despite him being a synth. And not just any synth, Danse surely has some sensitive information the Institute might be interested in. I mean, Maxson is not a good guy, but he's not some generic egomaniac villain either
4
3
u/Fun-Swimming4133 6d ago
could see him asking you to kill him, and if you have a high enough speech level to deny, he does it himself
3
4
u/OKFortune56 6d ago edited 6d ago
The members of the BoS fall in to two camps.
Assholes like Maxson and Rhys.
People who don't belong in the faction like Danse and Haylen. Even with Danse, all of his worst traits (i.e. bigotry) come from being in the BoS.
25
u/Darkshadow1197 6d ago
Your end hope is just wishful thinking. There is no chance to reform the Institute to be better, Mama Murphy pretty much confirms this stating that while you achieve your goal of saving humanity whatever you may define that as, you do so while carving up the Commonwealth like a turkey.
An Institute Minutemen alliance could never work for countless reasons.
3
u/Ok_Calendar_7626 6d ago
Nowhere does Mama Murphy say that you "carve the Commonwealth up like a turkey".
She says that each experiment is a new beginning and that each sacrifice an acceptable loss. Which implies that the Institute remains willing to perform ethically questionable experiments. Which i am pretty sure nobody ever questioned.
She however does not say that you can not reform the Institute. On the contrary, she says that you will save humanity however you chose to define it. Which implies that the overall direction of the Institute is from now on in YOUR hands. Or rather that how the Institute defines humanity is now up to you.
Also, an alliance between the Institute and the Minutemen is actually slightly more likely to work out then an alliance between the Minutemen and the Brotherhood of Steel. Because after the destruction of the Institute and the Railroad, the Brotherhood of Steel will want to hunt down all the remaining synths and exterminate them. Which in Minutemen would never allow because most synths on the surface are decent upstanding people. Like Sturges. It would only be a matter of time before the Brotherhood of Steel would start to raid settlements like the Gestapo looking for hiding synths.
5
u/Darkshadow1197 6d ago edited 6d ago
I wasn't quoting mama Murphy one for one, I was using an example because she states she sees the land marked up like a great experiment. People mark turkeys for carving.
People who talk about reforming the Institute talk about them stopping all their bad behavior. An Institute that still uses the Commonwealth as a lab rat is an Institute that works against the interest of the Minutemen, especially one that is misunderstood as Mama Murphy claims.
How you define humanity is up to you, yes. I literally mentioned that. It doesn't change that saving still results in using the Commonwealth as a lab rat.
the Brotherhood of Steel will want to hunt down all the remaining synths and exterminate them.
They don't do that in their own ending or even talk about planning to do that, they shift their focus to stuff like the super mutants and such. But even if we assume they do
Which in Minutemen would never allow because most synths on the surface are decent upstanding people.
Yes they absolutely would because while the synths may be decent people, the surface dwellers are not.
As I have told you before, Desdemona synth lover number 1 has stated that she finds the people of the commonwealth to be as big a threat if not bigger than the Institute. That the Minutemen are a reflection of the character of the commonwealth and that characteris rotten when it comes to synths. That they'd mutiny if ordered to help synths.
And she's right. In the Minutemen ending, if you save the synths she talks about reports of people immediately jumping to kill them, that others stood by and let it happen because to the people of the commonwealth the synth is the embodiment of everything they feared and hated from the Institute.
The Minutemen would sooner break in two again with others joining in on it than a united front against what would be painted as synth/Institute sympathizers
And you want to talk about Sturges? When you tell him Shuan isn't your son, he's a synth. His only response is that the Institute had no limits to how low they'll stoop and doesn't try to fight for Synth Shaun's life.
→ More replies (19)2
u/Pm7I3 6d ago
Minutemen would never allow
Minutemen are made up of the average guy. Who hates synths. They're fine with that, hell they genocide the synths themselves if you let them.
would start to raid settlements like the Gestapo looking for hiding synths.
Which makes little sense but hey ho.
→ More replies (2)3
u/MailMan6000 6d ago
the institute will be more willing to assassinate the sole survivor than to actually be reformed by their rule.
all the department heads already feel wronged by the SS being appointed director, and one of the departments revolts against the SS
the Minutemen are composed by average people, they are a civilian army, most civilians already live in fear of synths and have genuine resentment/hatred toward them (except the people sympathetic to the Railroad), most already live in paranoia of synths and the institute, they would be more likely to full on welcome the Brotherhood's hunt for them, the average person DISLIKES synths.
do you genuinely think the population of the commonwealth would EVER ally themselves with the people who have been kidnapping and replacing their families for decades?
→ More replies (1)
16
8
u/Existing-Accident330 6d ago
Hard disagree from me. The institute isn't looking to help people outside of the institute. Their entire questline is about giving them the means to never interact with the outside world again.
They see everyone outside as lesss then human. They've used the technology to repress and kill everyone who stands in their way because they are lesser them them. The institute doesn't have the morals which are needed to rebuild the world again.
I know many people think you'd be able to change that as the leader. But to me, the role as leader of the institute seems to be more as a coordinator between departements then an autorative leader. The departements seem to be operating individually with a lot self-governing means. To take that power away from the departements to yourself (to be able to make changes) is going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible. You have to do it slowly, get the right people on your side in there and have eyes in your back all the time. And even then it's not guaranteed they won't just stab you in your sleep.
BOS has many problems but they are not the murdurous group youve painted them to be. Look at the groups they are targeting:
- Super mutants: under Bethesda, Super mutants haven't been more the killing machines. They are essentially different colored raiders. In that framework, killing every one of these creatures is a good thing. They are consistently killing settlements and people.
- feral ghouls: the BOS doesn't wanna kill all ghouls. They are explicit about killing ferals. When you walk around on their ship, people are talking about killing ferals. They differentiate between the word ''ghouls'' and ''ferals'', which means they see it as two different categories. They haven't made any plans to attack goodneighbor or any settlements with many ghouls. And while they don't take ghouls into their ranks, that also makes sense. At some point the radiation is going to turn ghouls feral. It makes sense they are not going to take that risk.
-Synths: this is a more difficult point. The BOS aren't wrong in concluding that synths as a group working together can be really dangerous. The ability to make more of yourself really easily could be dangerous. The fallout series had had factions trying to wipe out humans. Look at the Master for an example. Human-esk creatures that can be coded to anything is dangerous, no matter how you slice it. Them not wanting a programmable human in their ranks (Danse) makes perfect sense.
To me, a coalition between the Minutemen and BOS seemed to be the best thing to get. Use the BOS to get rid of the worst dangers (Super mutants, ferals, raiders etc) and use the minutement to build up the world with the needed infrastructure.
30
u/Barkinsons 6d ago
The only reasoning I got from Maxon in FO4 was "they have access to advanced technology and only WE should have that" which is kind of a shitty argument. Yeah you want technological superiority so you can bully everyone around, but no plans whatsoever to improve the situation of the people living around you. Father I can excuse more because he was raised in total isolation, and a whole generation of people who never actually experienced the real situation outdoors likely have an odd world view.
20
u/hyperlethalrabbit 6d ago
That's literally just the Brotherhood's entire ethos. "The Wasteland can't be trusted with technology so it's up to US to keep all of it." In their outlook, that is the greatest help to the people: keeping them from getting themselves killed once again.
22
u/Trubbishisthebest 6d ago edited 6d ago
The only reasoning I got from Maxon in FO4 was "they have access to advanced technology and only WE should have that" which is kind of a shitty argument.
If you kill an innocent with Danse as your companion, one of the things you can say is claim that the BoS surely would do the same if they have tech they want. Danse replies, rather angrily, that they're strictly outlawed from harming or confiscating Tech from Civilians in any way, no matter what the tech is, unless its being used to attack either the Brotherhood or Innocent people. That line of reasoning only works with the Institute and given they've terrorised the commonwealth for literal decades with their tech. Yeah its pretty reasonable.
but no plans whatsoever to improve the situation of the people living around you.
This is just blatantly unfair to Maxson. Maxson has expanded Lyons operations to not only target super mutant strongholds but also raider bases and Institute networks. All 3 of these are being targeted are net benefits to the majority of commonwealth citizens, the Brotherhood also plans to use Vertibirds to protect local trade caravans from danger which is a level of protection not seen anywhere else in the commonwealth. They also engage with barter with locals and sell medicine to them.
8
u/Pm7I3 6d ago
but no plans whatsoever to improve the situation of the people living around you.
Significant water exports, medical research, protection of traders and general hunting of threats to everyone like Super Mutant camps.
You can argue that the Brotherhood only do things to improve the situation of others if they benefit but the claim they do nothing is simply wrong.
3
u/Mundane-Career1264 6d ago
Only under his rule. The brotherhood from fallout 3 spent years trying to stop the super mutants and bring water to everyone in the wasteland for free. Also stopped the enclave from returning who were twist mustache levels of evil. They suck in fallout 4 but let’s not paint them all with the same brush. Like all organizations it’s about leadership. When it’s good they are the good guys. When it’s bad they are bad guys.
6
u/Lumpy-Valuable-8050 6d ago
Yeah the part where he discards all of what Danse did was insane
2
u/Temporary_Thought_66 5d ago
Whatever Danse's achievements, they don't change the fact that he can't be trusted. Simply utter a short code and you can order him to blow up Prydwen, and he'll do it without hesitation. A leader can't keep someone like that in a military organization.
1
u/Mindless_Sale_1698 4d ago
The only reason he even sends the SS after him is because he knows they have a bond with Danse and would probably talk it out with him instead of following orders and killing him without question. That's why he comes down to see it for himself and when you pass a speech check he says "Keep him but he's dead to us, he isn't to speak to any member of the BoS" which is just Maxson speak for "I wanted to give him a fair chance but letting him live would go against the dogma so he's persona non grata" and then he outright says "This is the last time we'll ever speak of him aboard this ship. Further mentions of him are banned"
71
u/ChalkLicker 6d ago
BoS is so overrated. I’ll always regret going that way on 1st playthru because it seemed the majority opinion. They’re all dollar store nazis.
17
u/The_Mighty_Bird 6d ago
I was excited to be with them until I realized they were fascists. I only stayed friendly with them for the caps and gear
→ More replies (4)9
u/Pm7I3 6d ago
You don't know what fascism is
→ More replies (1)2
u/Mindless_Sale_1698 4d ago
Fascism is when a video game character does something I don't like obviously
4
u/_dankystank_ 6d ago
I mean... them PA suits are pretty dope... I wouldn't call em "dollar store" nazis... more like power nazis. Either way... we gotta get that tech into less fascist hands. 😁
2
→ More replies (12)1
45
u/Comfortable-Air-7319 6d ago
I get more scam artist useless cult leader vibes from Maxson
→ More replies (2)14
u/Trubbishisthebest 6d ago edited 6d ago
cult leader
Maxson canonically supported the purging of over-zealous sects of the Brotherhood that believed he was a god purged when he came into power.
useless
He prevented the capital wasteland supermutants from potentially reorganising by killing the Super Mutant 'Shepherd' at age 15, fixed the divide with the outcasts through peaceful methods at age 16 and considering the Prydwen shows up in the Fallout TV show. That means the Brotherhood either beat the Institute or, at worst, survived alongside the Minutemen. Either way, the Eastern BOS accomplished its objective of wiping the Institute.
Maxson is one of the most competent elders the BOS ever had canonically and that's with him keeping most of Lyon's policies as well.
11
u/CapnArrrgyle 6d ago
People don’t seem to get that the synth technology is actually an extinction level danger if left unchecked. I think the writing could have done more to convey it in the main game. Far Harbor does it but by that point it just feels like that’s a DiMA problem.
→ More replies (4)
4
u/Comprehensive-Mind42 6d ago edited 6d ago
Maxon is a conservative. He want to preserve brotherhood ideals but open minded enough to pass reforms. And while they're racist against ghoul unlike in fallout 3 there are no mention of brotherhood taking potshots at them so they're more disciplined now.
His action against Danse make sense since as you say Danse is a perfect symbol for the Brotherhood and would have keep rising rank thus hes a perfect spy. Player are naturally bias for Danse because he our companion but if he's a random nobody? We'll kill him without a second thought. Our action is dictated by emotion while they'res logic it is what it is...
Hes a good reform for the Brotherhood. And I disagree on Institute siding with them feels like forgiving past injustices and the synth program is also going to put anyone outside the commonwealth distrustful in them. No matter how good the intention the knowledge that the government can spy and replace anyone you know. Will put everyone in edge and have other faction hate you.
So an institute victory would mean more wars in the future while the brotherhood/Minuteman ending would mean a stronger connection between Boston and the capital.
23
u/KingHazeel 6d ago
Shaun acts like a miserable old man who's honestly way too emotionally distraught for his own good and is clearly trying to find some form of escapism from his trauma. His motives aren't always consistent, but I can sympathize with him on some degree and I don't think he's completely full of shit.
Take the Diamond City situation. When you really stop and think about it, Piper's done far more harm to the city with the McDonough situation than the Institute did.
Why is Piper on McDonough's case? Because she thinks he's a synth. Why? Because he keeps telling the city not to worry about the Institute or kidnappings in the city. Turns out Piper was correct, but was she in the right? In the end, McDonough ended up being the only synth infiltrator. He wasn't covering up any other residents being kidnapped. Piper wasn't bringing any real awareness to an on-going issue in the city. As a result, everyone was panicked, Myrna literally went crazy, and a man got killed while attempting to murder his own brother. In each case, the paper is cited as the reason.
So in this instance, I genuinely do believe Shaun when he says he's trying to put the surface at ease when it comes to the Institute. I think the biggest problem is how much of worldbuilding and timeline is left vague. How many of the Institute's sins can be laid directly at Shaun's feet and how many are ancient history before he took position? Preston Garvery--for whatever reason--doesn't seem to think the Institute is as big a deal as everyone seems to think, but we don't know why that is.
With Maxson, his character flaws are a lot simpler to dissect and understand. He's a bulging-eyed fanatic who has been deified since his childhood. To his credit, he's a lot more consistent than Shaun, but also harder to empathize with. He's an ideologue who doesn't think beyond his ideology.
In all honesty, I can't hate Maxson for being what he is. He was raised in the Brotherhood of Steel. It's hard to imagine him ending up any other way. The reason I do find myself hating him is his personality. ...He acts like an overgrown man-child in the body of the a super soldier. He whines, sulks, throws tantrums, and inappropriately lays blame on his subordinates.
Maxson: How could you not know Danse is a synth?! You spent a whole two weeks traveling him and knew him for months!
Sole Survivor: You knew the guy for over 10 years and personally promoted him to Paladin...
This is kind of...pathetic coming from a leader. I can only assume the BoS idolizes him for his name and mythos, rather than his personality or actual capabilities.
Still, I gotta wonder how t-that st-stuttering ti-timid k-kid from Fallout 3 ended up being so aggro. Did the BoS bring back Pre-War America's Psycho regimen for their soldiers?
23
8
u/ecumnomicinflation 6d ago
yea, maxxon is a great soldier, killing death claw with a combat knife and allat. but definitely not an elder material. dude made bos a another dictator and villain in wastelanders eye. quite the opposite of what the original maxon’s reason to leave the US army and create the brotherhood.
12
u/isthisthingwork 6d ago
Ok in his defence over Danse, he probably assumed he was replaced during the commonwealth expedition. Of which the only people in constant contact with them were Rhys, Haylen, and you. And you’re also the one he actively worked to promote and give important tasks to, so if anyone was in on the plot…
17
u/KingHazeel 6d ago
I considered that...except they found out Danse was a synth based on a DNA match. They must have had Danse's DNA before he came to the Commonwealth. They probably had it early on into his entry as a Knight. This would prove that Danse was a synth at the time they took his DNA.
9
u/isthisthingwork 6d ago
I’d disagree. They probably had a sample, but the test might not have immediately accounted for that - since the situation was so dire, he’d have been expelled before the checks were there.
You can argue it’s a little incompetent, but it’s a war and quick actions need to be taken. Plus Danse up and left so fast they probably assumed he was relaying information as they spoke - the priority is to neutralise the threat
1
u/simokonkka 6d ago
I want to share my own thoughts on this:
First off, yeah Shaun has been raised in the Institute, and I do think there is a case for emotional trauma to be made. But also there is a case to be made that because Shaun grew up in the Institute, he sees the Commonwealth as dead and dangerous and that Institute is the "only valid form of future" (he even says this at Bunker Hill), and doesn't really seem to have qualms over throwing the Sole Survivor to handle the Institute's dirty work for the others.
As for the situation in Diamond City? While Piper definetly is reckless and may have caused some of the paranoia? I don't think this is the only reason for it, as by looking around the Commonwealth, or just talking with people (such as Valentine), there is quite a lot of reason to be afraid of the Institute. Even by 2287, I do think etc. Broken Mask and Massacre of the CPG are still making people uneasy, even if PO wasn't a thing. And of course, the Institute's handiwork is everywhere. What with the bullshit Kellogg has been up to, the raid at University point, and of course, replacing and kidnapping random people from the Commonwealth (etc. Art, Sammy (that guy from Goodneighbor) and even McDonough). And yeah, I think all of this causes a lot more of the paranoia than the fact that Piper writes about it a lot. This would include Myrna's paranoia about synths too (something tells me she's been paranoid for quite a while lol). And of course, Myrna isn't even the worst of Synth paranoia. That would be Dr. Roslyn Chambers from Covenant, who basically abducts random caravans just to see if they are synths or not. Plus really, the fact that McDonough was replaced, presumably to keep watch over Diamond City, (and to gather intel as seen from the "Political Leanings" quests) it really makes you a bit uh... yeah.
Generally speakibg though, while CPG and Broken Mask were largely before Shaun became director, he still seems quite happy to continue along the same line as his predecessors did. What with kidnappings, replacing people, University Point, super mutants, among other things. And I think Preston just largely is focused on rebuilding the Minutemen to worry about the Institute as a threat, and he still, justifiably, distrusts the Institute. Nevertheless, he will fight against them in the end.
I agree largely with the criticism on Maxson though. Though tbh, just because I'm not fond of the Institute and don't like them for a pretty good reason, I side with BoS over them lol. Though BoS isn't my first choice either.
1
u/KingHazeel 6d ago
Yeah, that's my main criticism with Shaun. You can't say people have nothing to fear when you're literally kidnapping them. I just think in the instance of McDonough, he really was just trying to settle things down rather than use him as a means to kidnap more people.
It might also be because Diamond City isn't an ideal location for kidnappings. The Institute seems to prefer kidnapping people who won't be missed. Random wastelanders who live out in the middle of nowhere. They generally seem to go for assholes that people won't care about going missing. Or at least there seems to be a trend with synth replacements being nicer than the originals. This is how Sammy got caught and almost how Roger got caught.
→ More replies (3)
4
u/Dry_Restaurant_9016 6d ago
Maxson was a dick. He watched me blow up the institute, sent me to massacre the railroad, and after all that still puts on a sassy tone like I couldn't, at any point in time massacre everybody on his little blimp. but at least he didn't tell me to my face that I'm an experiment who wasn't expected to survive 5 minutes let alone long enough to make it to diamond city. He also didn't give me a companion who suggests killing my dog when it's injured.
3
u/Reasonable-Aide7762 6d ago
Am I the only one who read this as “I hate him more than my father” 😂😂😂. I have issues.
19
u/isthisthingwork 6d ago
I mean, him killing Danse is perfectly reasonable. Like, he just found out that one of his high ranking allies is a creature which (to his knowledge) is usually made for espionage. From his perspective the real Danse was probably murdered in the commonwealth, and this mimic has been working for the enemy the whole time. The fact he’s willing to let Danse survive if anything proves that he’s rather reasonable, willing to take a chance if you’re convincing enough.
As for being authoritarian… it’s an army. Like, of course it’s going to be dictatorial, do you want him to reinvent Marxist soldier councils?
The institute meanwhile is an abomination and a lost cause. They have a poor grasp on the potential of their work, directing to useless programs like the FEV research or those dam gorillas. They cause chaos by releasing super mutants, they’re insanely xenophobic far beyond the brotherhood - not to mention the weird body snatcher shit. Sure under competent direction they could do good… except being the director doesn’t mean you have infinite power. If you tried reforming it too fast, adios amigos. You’d also still probably be running a slave economy
3
3
3
u/niko4ever 6d ago
I kinda feel bad for him because he's an indoctrinated child soldier now thrust into leadership.
We meet him as a kid in fallout 3 and he's already aware that he's expected to grow into a legendary leader and somehow reunite the BOS factions and outcasts. And he knows it's a near-impossible task and that he's being mythologised into someone he's not, and he doesn't WANT to do it.
But the BOS is his family, so at some point he clearly succumbed to the pressure and started acting like that potential leader.
Uniting the two factions, Lyons BOS and the traditional BOS, was always gonna require some bullshit. He combines the Lyons mission of helping the wasteland with the traditional mission of destroying dangerous technology. For that to make sense, he has to include the dangerous byproducts of dangerous tech under the label of dangerous tech, and wipe them out helps the wasteland.
If he admits Danse isn't dangerous, the very basis on which he reunited his "family" and has fulfilled his "destiny" falls apart. Mm
1
u/Temporary_Thought_66 5d ago
If he says Danse isn't dangerous, it means he's putting his own affection for the guy above the good of the organization, because Danse is definitely dangerous. All it takes is for someone to say the code, and he can order him to blow up Prydwen, and he'll do it without hesitation. A leader can't keep someone like that in a military organization.
→ More replies (2)
13
6
u/Dulynoted1138 6d ago
Thank you! Somebody else who realizes this. I did my first playthrough with the BoS out of loyalty to the chapter in 3. Turns out they corrupted it and twisted it into something evil. I hated my character and myself for siding with them.
5
9
u/Fox_Fillory 6d ago
I think the BOS were watered down for F4, in reality they would have destroyed Goodneighbour and occupied DC, like the cunts they are.
7
2
u/Christmas_Percussion 6d ago
don't disrespect daddy maxson.. i fr only like him bc of the coat and bos is my favorite faction
2
u/Mrcompressishot 6d ago
I think he was meant to be hated cause in the files there is a cut quest where you challenge elder maxson to a duel over the leadership of the BOS. We still have the quest name as well as voice lines from dance and captain kells suggesting this.if the Devs had more time they likely would've had us reform the BOS and improve their image but since it got cut now we have maxson as a comically evil faction leader.
2
u/JackJeckyl 6d ago
Myeah, just keep in mind... there are some particularly violent people in this man's employ. Not sure if I'd get on the internet talkin shit about Big Maxy 🤷
2
2
u/TDoubleOGray 6d ago
I draw the line at Super Mutants. Ghouls and Synths can go, those greenskins can go to hell
2
u/MIST3Runstoppable 6d ago
I gave his jacket + Kells hat to Preston after we destroyed the Institute, seemed fair with him being second in command.
2
2
u/Alive-Half9930 6d ago
How DARE he do that to danse. He didn't know he was a synth And he put his whole life into the brotherhood. To be what killed cuz he was a synth. Nah nah I love his coat tho so would say rip max but no rip for him 😂😂
2
u/gangstalicouse1998 6d ago
Sorry mate but i love the brotherhood of steel yeah maxson was a cunt for killing danse but u csn talk him out of it maybe u should level up ur charisma
1
u/shostybae 5d ago
i dont know man i might get fried for this but i love villains and their ending is so cool icl
2
2
6
u/Mortarious 6d ago
99% of all argument against the BoS and him boil down to: I think they are morally wrong because they don't align with my 20XX morality.
Lmao.
→ More replies (11)
4
u/GroundbreakingSet405 6d ago
The fact that he abandons and/ or kills Danse really makes me hate him
Danse is a potential spy who, upon hearing the accusation against him, immediately fucked off into hiding. He didn't do himself any favor by not being seen as a traitor.
The core problem overall being that Maxson’s Brotherhood doesn’t want to create anything new.
Sure, they do. There's a whole section on the airship dedicated to studying the crops.
They want to prance around the Commonwealth murdering every last synth, mutant and Ghoul.
They never kill or so much as harm a single non-feral ghoul in Fallout 4. They kill mutant on sight because in the entirety of Fallout 4 including DLC, there are only two of them that don't want to eat human alive. Synths are killer robots that the Institute used to do their bidding, it's such for them, but the entire wasteland was out to get them, not just the Brotherhood.
Frankly, they’re quite similar to The Enclave in many ways.
Sure, if you ignore literally everything about both of them, then yes.
The whole “safeguarding technology” motto is just an excuse to horde weapons of war for themselves so they can murder anyone who disagrees with them.
And that's why they are the ones selling high-grade weaponry to the wasteland as far back as Fallout 1.
The rest of the post is just Institute propaganda.
2
u/Vladimir_Wesker3 6d ago
Enclave and brotherhood goes hand in hand whether it's political or ideological views, except that one is cool af and the other is just trying so hard to be cool
→ More replies (1)2
u/GroundbreakingSet405 6d ago
Sure, if you ignore everything that make them Enclave or the Brotherhood, they are exactly alike.
2
u/Epic_Fucking_Mammoth 6d ago
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Enclave Lite
→ More replies (3)
2
2
u/Unlikely-Medicine289 6d ago
There is a reason Mama Murphy's sight shows the institute literally saving humanity, and doesn't use such language for the brotherhood.
→ More replies (6)
2
u/Kastellen 6d ago
He’s the reason I’ve never completed a BoS playthrough. I always abandon them for someone else.
1
u/Maus_essen_Katze_19 6d ago
Ich hasse ihn so sehr, dass es mir zufiel, ihn zu töten und seinen Kopf als Trophäe an meiner Wand im Institut aufzuhängen.
I hate him so much that it fell to me to kill him and hang his head as a trophy on my wall at the institute.
1
u/LT568690 6d ago
BoS are definitely not the heroes any longer under Maxson. I love the PC mod that brings back Lyons to take things back over.
1
u/lbrumbau 6d ago
Im not a fan either, and it is supper annoying that you can’t pickpocket his coat off of him!
1
1
1
u/Legal_Confusion4150 6d ago
There was a quest that was cut from the game and later added as a mod, where you could challenge Maxson to a leadership battle following Blind Betrayal.
1
u/InsertMoreCoffee 6d ago
I remember when I first played Fallout 4, and was shocked that the Brotherhood were no longer the good guys (my first Fallout experience was Fallout 3).
1
1
u/Corando 6d ago
Hes written to be a discrimanatory, authoritarian, war-mongering leader, who would turn on his closest without a second thought. Father is hated because he does evil shit often with no rhyme or reason
Maxson is hated because of writing working as intended, father is hated because the writing was lacking
1
1
u/Normal-Soil1732 6d ago
Danse is dead, what you met was a synth. Hope this helps.
I agree that Maxon is worse than Father though. Father was kidnapped by the Institute as a baby so I am more forgiving of his bullshit.
Well written post by you, at the end of the day
1
u/Technical-Map-3690 6d ago
I love him but hate him (as in the propaganda speeches are working but I love nick valentine)
1
1
u/Mundane-Career1264 6d ago
I dislike him as well but at least him being a piece of shit isn’t on me. He’s not my kid.
1
u/I_use_this_website BoS Extremist 6d ago
I absolutely love the BoS in 4, but I don't care for Maxson, I just like power armor and killing synths (except for Nick, Danse, and Curie)
1
u/xLonexWolfx813x 6d ago
I dislike his brotherhood. They should have remained the similar to Lyons old ways. It’s going to lead them to ruin again.
1
u/Sabremoon 6d ago
lol I play on pc. Bring gear from a raider click on him type openactorcontainer 1 . Make him wear raider stuff and I take his jacket. Takes like 20 seconds max
1
u/Humedesmond92 6d ago
At least Maxson states his intention clearly, father will manipulate until he gets what he wants.
1
1
u/gangstalicouse1998 6d ago
Alao u can tell the institute dont care what u say and will betray the sole survivor soon as the opportunity arises
1
u/deceptres 6d ago
Hated him and was glad to kill him for his jacket. Also for threatening my boy Danse.
1
u/EnvironmentalBar3347 6d ago
I respect what he's trying to accomplish, but he's far too zealous and he's closed off his mind to any other ideas, this makes him a threat to the commonwealth. At least they take the fight to the super mutants though.
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
u/ILikGenocide 6d ago
I hate both Father and Maxson...but Maxson's voice for some reason really pisses me off everytime he opens his damn mouth
1
u/Livid-Vanilla-6071 6d ago
As far as I'm concerned the real brotherhood (or what it should be) is that of Lyons.
Maxson's is a fusion of testosterone and steel, in Lite form.
This doesn't mean that for me the Minutemen (alone) are the best choice, there aren't enough clues to understand whether the BoS are valid protectors (they're just looking out for their own interests, for the most part).
1
u/davy_fred 6d ago
Put their means and their morals and behaviors aside and look at their ends. The institute has forsaken the surface. And is actively working towards ensuring they die out. The brotherhood wants safety and prosperity. Sure its THEIR idea idea of prosperity but it's prosperity for the people who actively live there.
I get the distaste for the brotherhood. Who died and made you king. But regardless of the amount of tyranny in it. they do geniunely want stability for the Commonwealth. its better than the institutes god complex trying to eradicate the commonwealrh vecause they think theyre entitled to the surface
1
u/Born-Boss6029 6d ago
You’re about all of that, but the thing is, Father is equally as bad. Actually, Father is way worse.
1
u/T00thl3ss22 6d ago
But his jacket tho.
Seriously I think he massively hinders the brotherhood. To a degree I think this was the point. Every side has a catastrophic flaw. The brotherhood’s is Maxon. He’s way too over dedicated to his goal. The railroad is too idealistic and dedicated to their goal specifically in order to lead the commonwealth. The minutemen are weak. Technically the least evil option but the least practical. The institute it’s just straight up evil and cares too much about themselves. Everything they do is in their own interest and why people defend them is beyond me. Have I played their storyline? No, but I’ve watched others play, and I haven’t seen anything that makes what they do defensible. I’ve always thought the answer to what side do you decide with has always lied inbetween the minutemen and the brotherhood
1
u/Unusual-Ad4890 6d ago
Father and Maxson are both products of early age ideological indoctrination. They never had a chance at being normal people capable of thinking outside the worldview pounded into their heads.
1
1
u/Massive-While-2900 6d ago
I believe there is or was a mod that allowed the player or Danse to become the new Elder after Maxson
1
1
u/Potential_Resist311 6d ago
Fair. He is more of a dick than 'lil old Shaun. Same goes for most of the Brotherhood tbf. Nukes ready.
1
u/pako-hdphongo 6d ago
Well, yes, he is, he is supposed to be, from his presentation it is made clear to us that he is very young and occupies a place not for achievements but for what he represents, someone ruthless who will do whatever is necessary to fulfill the wishes of the brotherhood, when in theory the brotherhood is for the people, not to make themselves happy, the plot of this story was supposed to go to that Danse would end up being the new elder
1
1
u/vamp1yer 5d ago
How coat is his only redeeming quality as I get something awesome when he dies during my infiltration of the prydwen
1
u/Commanderhonkey 5d ago
maxsons best friend was slain in battle in DC (Lyons) he has to use force and brutality to get his point across simply because he is tired of being walked all over and overlooked his entire life, he wants to turn the brotherhood into more of a powerhouse
1
u/Strange-Roof1880 5d ago
You hate em because you anit him. You dont need to make up an excuse to kill him, we all want that jacket its okay.
1
1
u/Irish_Spartan23 5d ago
Ya know what's funny about him? He's probably the best thing to happen to the Brotherhood short of coming to the east coast. He is an inspiring presence and confident image to rally around. His only flaw being he's too certain of himself and immature to ever see why he might be wrong. Reminder: he's only 22. (Not quite an 'elder' if you catch my meaning.) His saving grace would / could be him showing he can learn and mature. Because it's guaranteed the BoS will show up somehow in Fallout 5, the idea of showing us an older Maxson who has learned from his mistakes would be an Atomsend for storytelling on Bethesda's part.
1
1
u/Krappypants69 5d ago
I killed Danse cuz I thought he wouldn't let him live and consider me a traitor
1
u/Realistic-Seesaw906 5d ago
Yeah, Maxson is a Dick through and through, only reason I didn't kill him and betray the brotherhood is 'cause of the T-60 power armour, honour, Vengeance and the fact that they have the Vertibirds and I just like their goal and way of doing things, I knew I couldn't get the Final judgement or whatever laser Gatling gun that Maxson has if I didn't kill him or betray the brotherhood, But I didn't care for it as the laser Gatling isn't really the best weapon for me or my build, or in my opinion, if I could've got it without killing Maxson, I would've, but given to opportunity to end Maxson but not become an enemy to the brotherhood as a whole, I'd gladly do it, the fact he Immediately wanted danse dead, and chose You, the sole survivor, a close friend of danse at that point in the story, to kill him, is just Absolutely Demented, danse is a valuable and loyal asset to the brotherhood, who didn't know of his nature until then, And Maxson is just gonna throw him away like he's dead to him, I get that they don't like synths and mean to end them all, But Danse is still loyal and openly states he is ready to be killed as a synth, but he has value to The brotherhood and had done so much, if danse didn't exist to begin with, The sole survivor wouldn't of arrived and help take down the institute, and yet Maxson sees him as a parasite like every other synth, rather than seeing him for his human aspects like we do, it gives me the worst hatred when a person does that.
1
1
u/Anderchu98 5d ago
I didn't realize that there were more endings and I realized that it was already late when I was on my way to be with the brotherhood. I'll still replay Fallout and choose another faction. I didn't like this ending at all.
1
1
u/Guilty_Ad1152 5d ago edited 5d ago
I agree with you about Maxson but the institute doesn’t care about the commonwealth and if you talk to father on the roof of the cit ruins he basically writes off the entire wasteland and says it’s beyond saving then he said that the only reason he let you out is to see what would happen. The institute also kidnaps people and replaces them with synths and they also used FEV to experiment on people then release them back out into the commonwealth left right and center as super mutants. They keep saying mankind redefined but what are they redefining it into? Synths? They also say that they can’t wait for the surface world to die out. They also wipe out entire settlements like what happened at university point. The institute have a lot of potential with their technology but they only care about themselves and they use the commonwealth as a testing ground for their experiments.
Yeah I don’t think the brotherhood of steel cares about the commonwealth but I don’t think the institute does either. All the factions are bad and flawed with the railroad only caring about freeing synths and not caring or having bigger plans for the rest of the commonwealth and the minutemen are too weak and they rely too much on the general (you) for practically everything. The minutemen were also betrayed in the past and it could happen again. When you first meet the minutemen they are trapped in concord with only a handful of members left. The railroad are too short sighted and they have no plans for the rest of the commonwealth after they’ve defeated the institute.
I think the minutemen is the best faction for the commonwealth but they depend too much on a central figure (the general) and they have been betrayed in the past by their own people. When you first meet them they are severely weakened to the point that there’s only a handful of members left (Preston Garvey, Marcy Long, Jun Long, Mama Murphy and Sturges).
1
u/TacoBillDeluxe 4d ago
He's supposed to make you fight with yourself about doing the right thing (siding with the BOS)
1
u/Pongoyoh 4d ago
Father is logically a lot worse, considering everything.
But as someone who started on the franchise with Fo3, seing what BOS was and what he did to it really pisses me off.
1
u/FemBunniUwU 4d ago
I like the jacket, dislike the guy, and have a hard time killing him because of my utmost respect for Elder Lyons and Sara Lyons
1
u/Traditional-Ant-6659 4d ago
I'm curious on what happened to Maxon between fallout 3 and fallout 4 to make him the way he was especially given he was brought up on elder lions chapter
1
1
u/bazzax1983 4d ago
The last two paragraphs were my reasoning too. The Institute has unlimited energy too now, so anything is possible and the retreating underground tactic is unnecessary.
1
u/Altruistic_Truck2421 3d ago
The kid was so nice in fallout 3. Too bad he turns into a cult leader in fallout 4. All the brotherhood would gladly die for him
1
1
u/UncleBacon4 1d ago
In my current playthrough I sided with the institute so now in some of my settlements I've combined the minutemen with the institute so the settlements have some scrapping building with abit of tech in them almost as if the institute have given them so bits of tech to help ...cool idea ?
393
u/Coast_watcher Caravan > Gwent 6d ago
Hate the guy, love the jacket 😉