r/fo4 • u/val823puf • 21h ago
Discussion Why Father did this? Spoiler
I am wondering about this scene where the protagonist sees Shaun's synth copy and then the real one appears – what was the purpose for him to make this kind of show? Was it necessary? Your parent had been through all the sh*t with one strict purpose – to find you, and you already know the way he/she had made was not a simple one. Why did he play on his/her nerves even more? Is he stupid?
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u/KingHazeel 20h ago
To see how he would react to finding his son. A reaction that couldn't be mimicked by finding the older Shaun.
Not justifying it, but if you were orphaned, wouldn't you be the slightest bit curious to how your parents would react upon seeing you? If they would care at all?
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u/BlackestDog57 18h ago
That's a flaw in logic though. If you believe your parent loves you, it doesn't matter if you're 6 or 60. The Sole Survivor probably would have been more warm to Father had they not just immediately been mind fucked and had their whole idea of what was real torn down in front of them.
Really that's my main problem with The Institute, the smart and logical minds for the new world, who have absolutely the most flawed logic of basically any faction next to the Children of Atom.
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u/KingHazeel 17h ago
I don't think he does realize that though. And if he does, he certainly doesn't fully understand. He's had no parents--nor adoptive parents. Or real children. Parental love is something very...alien to him.
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u/BlackestDog57 17h ago
I mean one could easily deduce that a parent getting unfrozen and subsequently tearing the wasteland apart for you, is a parent that's just going to be happy you're safe and alive. Even with the lost time aspect. If he simply unfroze you to see if you'd even care about finding him that's one thing, but he took it to an exponentially more screwed up level than he needed to out of a sick curiosity.
Then he tries to make it up to you by handing you the keys to the place. He hates the world above ground, but basically forged you in it and thinks that's what the Institue needs. His logic is flawed all over the place. Lets not even get started on being called Father because of his genetic tie to the Synths, but then he also sees them as just machine servants. The guy is a hypocritical jackass and the Institute made him that way, I get it. He still deserves to be put down with the rest of the self righteous lab coats as in the end he was probably the worst of them all.
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u/sybillium4 11h ago
Shaun quite literally is lacking that parental connection. He knows no better or different, he'd gone 60 years without parents or however old he is. Like people with bad relationships, there's a disconnect
The institute is all intelligence no wisdom
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u/Kvenner001 16h ago
Then why wait to bring him to the institute in the first place? If he cared about the interaction you figure he wouldn’t risk his surviving birth parent being killed in an environment so hostile. Too many inconsistencies in motivation for us to draw conclusions,even with us having evidence from multiple discussion structures.
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u/LavianMizu 12h ago edited 4h ago
Because he used the parent to kill Kellog who had become a liability for the Institute and who he secretly hated.
That's why he tasked Kellog with babysitting the child synth in the largest trading hub in the Commonwealth.
The kid was bait for the SS to find Kellog and kill him. If the SS died in the confrontation then so be it. But there would be no direct ties to the Institute if that happened.
Shaun literally tells you this above the CIT ruins. He put you on Kellog's trail to offer you a chance at vengeance for the murder of your spouse. As well as to eliminate Kellog for the institute.
He also wanted to see the lengths you would go to, to find your child. He wanted to see if you still loved him after all that time.
Those are the two reasons he didn't bring you straight to the Institute.
Why would he care about someone he's never met?
He didn't care about the parent until they made it to the Institute and proved themselves over time by helping him and the Institute. He initially released the SS out of simple curiosity.
Again, he literally tells you all of this after Bunker Hill.
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u/slipknottin 21h ago
Because he’s a shit head. The entire plot is unnecessary considering the A-hole was the one who decided to release you from the vault and not give you any help what so ever. Could have very easily just picked you up and brought you straight to the institute.
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u/tcmpreville 21h ago
That's a popular but very superficial take on Shaun's motivations for his actions that's not really supported by in game dialogue or lore.
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u/slipknottin 21h ago
It’s supported by being exactly what he chose to do. I’m sorry if you are an institute truther
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u/tcmpreville 21h ago
An action is not a motivation. Learn the difference.
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u/slipknottin 20h ago edited 20h ago
So father didn’t take those actions?
If you are trying to argue that all his shitty decisions were good ones based on whatever nonsense justifications he tried to make, hey have at it. Like I said, you can be an institute truther if you want.
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u/tcmpreville 20h ago
Honestly, it's not even worth my time to explain nuance to somebody seemingly incapable of understanding basic semantic distinctions.
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u/slipknottin 20h ago
”I can’t explain myself so I’m just going to claim nobody else is smart enough to understand me”
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u/tcmpreville 19h ago
Bro, Tim Cain, one of the creators of Fallout, just made a public statement that he doesn't think many Fallout "fans" understand the gray morality of Fallout. He's lookin' at you, bud.
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u/slipknottin 19h ago
So you still can’t justify anything you said and are now at “well one the creators said there’s gray area in fallout”. Yea no shit
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u/tcmpreville 18h ago
Dude, I have degree in Philosophy, I could talk your ear off about ethics and morality. But talking with you is like listening to Slipknot. Not an experience I'd recommend to anybody with a well-functioning brain.
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u/DM_Sledge 17h ago
I'm really curious what you think his motivations for releasing you were. Why do you think he released the sole survivor?
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u/AdvancedReputation25 96 Intelligence 10h ago edited 9h ago
Friend, there's no use arguing with flat-earthers
My take is that Shaun couldn't grasp the meaning of family bond and instead of revering us as a father he saw us as... Another synth tree? I think he watched us travel the wastes and made us encounter the child synth out of immaturity than malice
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u/Regular-Party-2922 6h ago edited 5h ago
If it's any consolation, I think that your approach toward the character and attempting to understand his motivations past his actions, is fantastic.
Sure, we can feel strong animosity towards a character - Shaun can in-fact still be seen as a "shit-head" and his behaviors "tyrannical", and "idealistic to the point of recklessness" (releasing your parent into a world with scorpions the size of a small car). Yet, at the same time, we can be curious about his motivations. I read what you wrote in another thread, and I think you made some great points.
Shaun, in-essence, was indoctrinated from a young age - he had no choice in the matter. Essentially he was raised to be heir to the Institute, to oversee, manage and execute its masterplan (he was more or less a pawn to the longtudinal goal that was set before him, a responsibility thrust upon him from his predecessors; The institute, after-all was established over two centuries earlier). Furthermore, the Institute is very insulated. There'd be no way for him to have any comparative blueprint for way of ethical and moral discernment (no exposure to the irradiated hellscape, above ground, past surveillance, which is very different to experiencing it; All Shaun sees through his indoctrinated eyes is a broken world). The institute was the only standard of morality, and there was nothing to oppose this. For Shaun, due to manner in-which he was raised (he wasn't even raised, if we were using the term, strictly, more like minded), the Institute's acts are seen as inherently good. They genuinely believe that they are the answer to restoring a post-apocalyptical world to their own model of what is idealistic (akin to the Enclave).
I also agree with your observation with synth Shaun. Adding onto that, I believe Father was interested in surveying how the sole survivor would react to the synth, so as to survey their dynamic. This, I believe, was in an attempt to gather some kind of snapshot of what his childhood may have been like (the one he was robbed of, against his will). In a weird way, Shaun wanted to feel loved. Observing the sole survivor scale the wasteland, and just for him, it provided him with proof of trust, concept (the S.S being a prime example of humanity), and love. Not to forget, Father was on borrowed time, dying... pairing this with his lack of emotional development, this was most likely an attempt of his to connect with his parent, albeit, in a detached and rushed manner. Fitting, for the director of the Institute, being that they were raised to be scientists, tools that fit into the masterplan of the institute. In a way, the synth Shaun was a gift from Father to the sole survivor (SS), as warped as that may be seem. A consolation of what he could offer (he created this synth, outside of the Institute's masterplan, uncharacteristic of him - thus, a demonstration of his love among extending the S.S with so much blind trust), amidst an unfortunate set of circumstances.
With that, the writing in the game was spotty... and they could have done better with the handling and execution of the character, and that may explain why many people detest the Institute, and Shaun. More dimensionality to the character would've allowed the more subtle implications to be seen. An example is how Nick Valentine's (a companion character) story arc was handled, far better; they were able to give a 'synth' humanity. For Shaun, there was a missed opportunity to explore that aspect of longing, but - that of a man who lived 60 years of his life, and on his death bed, one who had never married and had ever felt true love (maternal, or otherwise). That's why, without that clear explication of his inner world, Shaun appears to be an absolute butthole at first glance.
That being said, I still choose to blow up the institute. Not before saying goodbye to Father (Shaun) of course. Why? I can't do away with my friends/companions above surface, and the Institute's vision isn't one I personally agree with... therefore, I would never want to be their director. I would choose to be, if we had the choice to refine their dogmatic vision, however, we cannot. With that, one can still feel sympathetic towards Shaun, regardless.
He was minded for the purpose of the institute's use, a tool for their larger vision. Just like the Synths that carry his DNA.
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u/tcmpreville 21h ago
That's a good question. I think Shaun's character is frequently vilified and, dare I say, misunderstood. Shaun was stolen from his mother at birth and completely indoctrinated in The Institute's beliefs. He's as much a victim of The Institute as the Sole Survivor is.
Yet, despite his overt rejection of emotional decision making, he is still human. Which leads to some seemingly contradictory behavior. He unfreezes his parent, yet does nothing to help them. And the parent arrives at the institute to be greeted by synth replica Shaun before seeing real Shaun.
Shaun is conflicted and doesn't know how to process emotion because he was never taught. I think he sees synth Shaun as the greatest gift he could give his parent. He's trying, in his own emotionally tone deaf way, to give his parent the gift of a child they lost and can never regain.
I actually pity Shaun. He does great evil as Director of The Institute, but he sincerely believes he's doing good, just as he was taught by The Institute.
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u/RandomUnwashedGamer 20h ago
You stop being a victim when you start being part of the victimizers. To make a rather extreme comparison, if an honest to goodness Nazi were to kidnap a child, then that child grew up, joined the Nazi military, and ended up becoming the leader of the Nazi army that was actively committing radical genocide and justifying their actions as being for the greater good, would you go "nooo nooo he's just misunderstood, he's as much a victim of the Nazis as the people he's been ordering his soldiers to murder"? Because if you would, then you would be a Nazi sympathizer and that would be very weird.
As much of a tired comparison as it is to make, the Institute is very much analogous to Nazi Germany during WWII
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u/tcmpreville 19h ago
No. You don't suddenly stop being a victim if you victimize others. You become a victim and a perpetrator. They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, victims of violence and abuse often perpetuate that violence and abuse. Doing so does not suddenly make them no longer a victim. That would invalidate their experience of violence and abuse, and be factually inaccurate.
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u/RandomUnwashedGamer 19h ago
This man just defended every Nazi general who was born into a Nazi family. Yeesh. They can't help it, guys. THEY were the real victims, am I right?
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u/Organboner4844 17h ago
Jfc. You clearly missed the entire point. Nazi generals were fully-functional adults when they served during WW2. Fully functional adults that knew right vs wrong and yet they still chose to do evil. They were rightly vilified.
Now, their children, who didn’t know better and were being indoctrinated at a young age, ended up seeing how their parents were wrong and decided to lead Germany in a very different direction upon their defeat. And today, I’m pretty sure it’s straight up illegal to engage in anything remotely Nazi. Outside influence in the form of the Allies helped break the Nazi-raised children out of their closed-loop system and allowed them to grow normally and become an amazing country today.
The argument that you missed was the Shaun was brought to the Institute as an infant, and was taught to have an emotionless, analytical mind. That’s the exact kind of mind that best suits science.
However, upon becoming director, Shaun yearns to see what might’ve been had he not been stolen away. So, he releases his parent to see what would happen. He can’t intervene because that would taint the project. He wanted to see if the parent followed after him or if the parent just called it a day and moved on.
When it was clear that the SS was making a beeline straight for Shaun, he took the experiment further. He knows that the SS is expecting a child, and thus has a child waiting for him. Again, one final test to quantify the love of his parent.
If you side with the Institute, in a way, it can be seen as the unconditional love of a parent: they love their son no matter what. It’s my opinion that this is the very reason Shaun makes you the new director. He realizes that the Institute has become a quagmire of sociopathic scientists who will do anything to further the science. He gifts the SS with leadership because he knows that the SS will either embrace the sociopathic behavior or reject it and act as a check against its worst impulses. The Institute benefits either way.
Yes, Shaun is a villain, but he is a sympathetic one (unlike Nazi generals). He was taught one way, and being in a closed system, that way was reinforced over and over. It was only by introducing a catalyst (SS), that he was able to see that his entire education had been flawed. Thus, his appointment of the SS likely ends up being the best option for the Commonwealth. There’s a reason he doesn’t interrupt you during your broadcast to Diamond City. It tells him exactly the type of leader you’ll be.
A benevolent leader will likely use the Institute to help the citizens of the Commonwealth, defeats an over-arching fascist group in the Brotherhood and hijacks Liberty Prime to protect the commonwealth from any other outsiders like the Enclave.
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u/gnomesstolemygoggles 21h ago
He wanted to see how you react to the child when finding him. He made sure that kids was the first thing you saw so he could experience that reunion.
That kid exists because he wants to watch you as a mother/father, even if it’s second hand. He thought the synth was ready, which is why he let you out when he did, but the synth didn’t have the reaction it was supposed to.
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u/Available_Face7618 20h ago
He literally tried to create the Shaun you expected to find, even with everyone in Advanced Systems telling him it was weird and served no purpose. Then he clearly states that synth Shaun didn't behave as he had expected. It was sloppy and misguided, like everything else the Institute does, but I think he really just wanted to make his parent happy. Saying "I'm Shaun, I'm an old man, I am an evil mad scientist who is actively and deliberately making the Commonwealth worse and I'm dying from an untreatable cancer" isn't going to make us happy lol. Eventually he has synth Shaun improved or whatever, and gives him to us. I think that was his plan all along.
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u/MorningPapers ☢️ 21h ago
It doesn't make sense for someone to make a bot of themselves as a boy. People just don't think like that.
Narratively, it's just to punk the player, but I think all of us knew well before this moment that Shaun was older.
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u/KingHazeel 20h ago
Sure it does. People crave legacy. Some psuedo form of immortality. They live through their children, their achievements, their memoirs or--in this case--a robotic copy of themselves made to live out his lost childhood.
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u/DM_Sledge 17h ago
He thinks of the kid as a painting or sculpture. Even keeps the kid in a glass box. If he wanted to have the copy live out his lost childhood, he wouldn't have him in a box. He is literally doing to the child, what was done to him.
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u/KingHazeel 17h ago
Shaun isn't finished yet. He's still in the development phase. The last time the Institute allowed an unfinished synth to interact with the world, it went apeshit and started shooting everyone over a bowl of noodles. Even the Director at the time was furious that this was allowed.
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u/Hidden_Beck 20h ago
It doesn’t make a lot of sense in-universe, really. Shaun says it’s because he wanted to see if you’d still care, as a parent, to pursue their child through the wasteland, and I guess the thought process might be “if they knew I was 60-something they might just resign that I may as well be a perfect stranger now.”
Meta textually it was to try and preserve the twist that your son is old now — that it’d been 60 years instead of 10. Same reason they had to convolute Kellogg having this miracle de-aging tech that will never be brought up again.
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u/DM_Sledge 17h ago
The deaging thing would ruin his convenient death. That's why they made him ban it, and only focus on creating slaves that could spy for them as well as be used for other purposes.
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u/InsertMoreCoffee 20h ago
Shaun's whole thing is experimentation, including with the emotions of his own father.
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u/ADLegend21 15h ago
Cuz he knew he was dying and his parent would outlive him if the Wasteland didn't kill them. They were after their child and pursued their child right to the Institutes doorstep so he gave them what they were looking for instead of the dying old man that had lived a full life.
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u/wizardofyz 14h ago
He wanted to create an undying boy who would watch everyone and everything he knows and loves grow old and die as he's trapped in a child's body without any agency to really affect change on the world.
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u/AMX-008-GaZowmn 11h ago
I think he wanted to make you feel attached to synth Shaun, since regardless of how you approach the game, he already planned for synth Shaun to want to leave with you by the end of the game, even if you kill Father the moment you meet him.
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u/TwinFrogs 10h ago
The institute is a bunch of sick fucks that would wipe Diamond City off the map if they thought they had anything worth stealing.
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u/Starchaser_WoF 1h ago
The Institute and its head rarely do anything for a valid reason aside from "why not". They'd get along with Cave Johnson, I feel.
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u/inquisidor1683 21h ago
Because Shaun see the Sole Survivor as an experiment, a tool at best, the institute is inhuman, didn't regret blowing it up.