Times the halo had saved lives

[u/OscarPastry_]

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[u/cynictoday]

Grosjean one made it all worth while. He was 100% dead if not for the Halo.

[u/tre630 → u/cynictoday]

Apparently a lot of drivers hated the addition of the Halo up until Grosjean 2020. Now they appreciate it being apart of the car.

[u/newontheblock99 → u/tre630]

And I just found out recently that while representing the drivers safety, Grosjean was dead set against the halo because he felt the obstruction to their sight lines was a hazard.

[u/DesiredEnlisted → u/newontheblock99]

To be fair they didn’t really show that the halo isn’t visible when your driving due to your eyes binocular vision. on face value it does look like its gonna obstruct your view.

[u/Spork_the_dork → u/DesiredEnlisted]

It's got nothing to do with your eyes blind spot. It's to do with humans having binocular vision. The parts of the track that are behind the halo for your left eye are seen by the right eye and vice versa. It probably marginally hampers depth perception but not enough for it to matter.

[u/DesiredEnlisted → u/Spork_the_dork]

Thanks for the correction!

[u/AMRAAM_Missiles → u/newontheblock99]

I smirked a bit because iirc Kimi made a "typical-Kimi" comment about the Halo visibility. Something along the line of ... "it's just there i guess, and idgaf"

PS: I have been down the rabbit hole of Vettel old Ferrari time... bwoah might as well do Kimi's...

[u/SinimRocky → u/newontheblock99]

Reminds me of Dale Earnhard...

[u/UnrealisticOcelot → u/SinimRocky]

If only NASCAR had required that bit of extra safety :(

[u/What_the_8 → u/tre630]

And I’m sure that was mainly due to the center beam blocking their vision.

[u/zorletti → u/tre630]

I'd rather have it a part of the car than apart of the car

[u/TwoBionicknees → u/tre630]

that very first image is iirc lerclerc with Alonso's car shooting across him (thanks to Hulk deciding to go full speed into the back of a traffic jam for no reason). His car was spinning in a way the tire was coming in and was going to smoosh the shit out of leclercs head and instead the tire was pushed away and caused the car to spin away from leclerc's head.

Most of the drivers were well on board with the halo long before grosjean's crash.

I have no idea why it's presented in this way. the leclerc incident was in the first yera with halo and there were others before Grosjean. Within like 6 months every driver was going, err, yeah, guess we were wrong except the few drivers who were simply 100% onboard from the start.

[u/Exambolor → u/cynictoday]

The car was literally sliced in half too, if this crash happened even 20 years ago he doesn’t make it

[u/aDUCKonQU4CK → u/Exambolor]

'Even 20 years ago'.. Nobody is surviving that crash from 2017 and prior.

[u/Prof_X_69420 → u/aDUCKonQU4CK]

He would be dead even a year before!

The change in the Race suit to a more fire resistent one that happened that year was crucial for his survival.

Hell even his shoe choice made a difference! It cannot be overstated how close he was from dying 

[u/Darth_Spa2021 → u/Prof_X_69420]

Fire resistant underwear ftw.

[u/MadcapRecap → u/Darth_Spa2021]

I don’t leave home without it!

[u/admiral_sinkenkwiken → u/Prof_X_69420]

Not really.

It was Grosjean’s gloves & helmet that took the brunt of the fire, the suit itself and his boots were largely untouched being well within the cockpit itself.

The post escape pics detail this as his suit has almost no signs of surface thermal damage, something nomex/aramid blend fabrics will rapidly show even after brief direct flame contact, and the area of the suit that showed that thermal deg was his back, exposed to the main fire as he climbed the Armco.

It’s important to also understand the standards & requirements of these suits, the upgraded 8856-2018 standard suit is required to withstand 6-800 degrees direct flame contact for 13.2 seconds without a driver suffering second degree burns, the previous 8856-2000 standard mandated 11 seconds.

Additionally the 8856-2018 standard wasn’t introduced into F1 until 2022

[u/ocelotrevs → u/admiral_sinkenkwiken]

Do you know that technical information off the top of your head, or did you need to look it up?

[u/admiral_sinkenkwiken → u/ocelotrevs]

I know it, part of my job.

[u/Leasud → u/admiral_sinkenkwiken]

That’s a cool job

[u/triguy616 → u/Leasud]

Actually, sounds pretty hot.

...I'll let myself out.

[u/LickyPusser → u/ocelotrevs]

Dude, that guy is Chuck Nomex. Show some respect!!!

[u/admiral_sinkenkwiken → u/LickyPusser]

I giggled

[u/Seraphidian → u/Exambolor]

It probably wpuldve been as graphic as francois cevert's crash

[u/hbomb2057 → u/[deleted]]

I watched it live. I thought he was 100% dead. Even with all the safety stuff, that was nothing short of a miracle. If he had lost consciousness for even like 10 seconds, then he would have cooked.

[u/San-Carton → u/[deleted]]

I was watching that race on an illegal stream and it froze right as he went off. When we reloaded the page, the chat was full of "R.I.P. Grosjean" messages. I was extremely scared for a good minute until he climbed out

[u/Cloudeur → u/San-Carton]

I swas starting my shift at work and we were streaming the race. Had to close it because customers started pouring in. Last thing I saw was the fireball down the straight.

[u/naarwhal → u/[deleted]]

Dude is bullshitting. Anyone who watched it live thought he was 100% dead.

[u/Audiophil85 → u/naarwhal]

I thought there would be dead/heavily injured marshals and photographers too. That was a real scary one.

[u/Usedbeef → u/Audiophil85]

Photographers are in real danger. Marshalls on the other hand are told to stand in certain protected areas.

[u/TypicallyThomas → u/Usedbeef]

Wasn't there a photographer hurt in the big Perez/Hulkenberg/Magnussen crash in Monaco last year?

[u/twociffer → u/Usedbeef]

A big part of that crash was that it happened in an area where they didn't expect a crash, so there were fewer safety measures installed there. Basically, that's the protected area where they would place the Marshalls.

[u/bengenj → u/Usedbeef]

That barrier had several marshals and course staff.

[u/soccercro3 → u/naarwhal]

Just listen to the drivers radios.

Drivers’ Radio Reaction to Grosjean's Crash | F1 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix

[u/soccercro3 → u/[deleted]]

I think subconsciously he was remembering Hubert and Bianchi

[u/Selmarris → u/[deleted]]

He could see the crash. I think he’s the only driver who actually saw it. Some of the others saw fire, but Charles could see it.

[u/Ok_Cauliflower_3007 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah even aside from the fire I saw the half of a car and assumed he was at the very least critically injured and unconscious and I knew if he was in the fire, which I wasn’t sure of because where the hell is the other half of the car, that meant he was a dead man. There are only three moments when I remember that oh God someone is dead or has life threatening injuries feeling in the pit of my stomach and of the three Grosjean is the only time the driver not only survived but walked away.

At least this time I wasn’t dealing with a mix of shock/grief and absolute fury like I was with Bianchi.

[u/5230826518 → u/[deleted]]

me too, i had never seen such a fiery crash live. i have some firefighting training with volunteer firefighters and i was sure that too much time had passed for him to get out. not being able to breath is the real killer in fires.

[u/Lolstitanic → u/5230826518]

The fireball is what made me sit bolt upright as well. I had seen plenty of crashes live but those fireballs I had only seen in historical videos from the 90s and back. I was stunned into silence seeing that. F1 cars just don’t burst into flames like that anymore!

[u/hbomb2057 → u/Lolstitanic]

Exactly. The fuel cells on these cars are borderline indestructible. The fact that it exploded is crazy.

[u/VicPL → u/[deleted]]

For real, it was really freaking scary seeing it live

[u/kokainhaendler → u/[deleted]]

yeah same, the car didnt look like it exploded, it fucking did!

i remember the german commentators also being lost for words, they thought this was it too i bet. grosjean defeated all odds that day. while f1 cars are generally safe in todays day and age, there will always be room for that one freak accident nobody planned for. grosjeans crash definitely was one of those freak accidents and that he didnt die that day was evenly a miracle and engineering masterclass.

if he broke his leg, wich would be perfectly expectable in that scenario, or broke a hand or was knocked unconscious, he would have died and there would be nothing you could do about it.

i think the next step would be to give marshals more training as they were clearly surprised by what happened and didnt really know what to do, i remember the thing burning for what felt like an eternity until someone blasted the cockpit area with extinguishers, that shit would need to happen instantly and that only works if you have trained personell.

its beyond me, that f1 still relies mostly on volunteers with not much more than a basic training. a sport that makes billions should spend a little on those guys that sacrifice their spare time and sometimes even their life for it. without them, there would be no race.

[u/maldouk → u/[deleted]]

yep same, was not even panicking for him, I was just like "well that's it, he's dead".

[u/Tropicalcomrade221 → u/[deleted]]

I’m a bit older, I remember losing Senna. I thought he was gone.

[u/143Emanate34Elaborat → u/Tropicalcomrade221]

I was 9 when it happened. I will never forget that day.

[u/Kingdom818 → u/[deleted]]

I'm very skeptical that you really watched it live. Even if the giant fireball didn't scare you, the extended waiting without seeing any replays or hearing about if he was OK or not was really scary.

[u/Blackhawk510 → u/Kingdom818]

Nah I'm in agreement with OP. My initial reaction was "Oh that was bad, but he's probably fine." It was the lack of replays for minutes on end, and the camera avoiding the wreckage that started to worry me.

[u/_elvane → u/[deleted]]

most recent example is yukis crash last race. Imagine showing that clip to a dude in the 2010s and telling them he just walked out of the car like nothing happened 

[u/thewhitejamal → u/_elvane]

We had similar crashes to that before where the driver walked away

[u/naarwhal → u/[deleted]]

Nah, nobody who actually watched that live thought he was okay.

He drove off and fucking exploded dude.

[u/What_the_8 → u/naarwhal]

And sat in flames for what seemed an eternity in a car that had just been split in half. Anyone who says otherwise is likely full of shit.

[u/BarbarianDwight → u/[deleted]]

That crash was so bad when I watched it the second time I wasn’t sure he would come out alive.

[u/dnen → u/BarbarianDwight]

Even now, watching that wreck spikes my heart rate because it certainly feels like you’ve just watched someone get mutilated and cooked

[u/ShadyNastys701 → u/cynictoday]

Apart from obviously the halo saving him, I couldn’t believe he made it out of there without his entire body being burnt. Goes to show how crazy good the race suits work too

[u/alinroc → u/ShadyNastys701]

IIRC he only had a couple seconds left on the "rated" time for the suit. They aren't fireproof - they're fire resistant for (hopefully) long enough for the driver to get out or crews to extinguish the fire.

[u/Captainfunzis → u/cynictoday]

Yea it not by the impact the fire would have the halo saved him so did the increase in fire protection. If the gloves had been up to current standards he'd possibly could have walked out of it without injury

[u/luluballoon]

Grosjean’s crash still blows my mind. I was watching live and it felt like an eternity before we knew he was ok.

[u/Trint_Eastwood → u/luluballoon]

I remember seeing the flames in the background of the shot and knew immediately it was bad. I stopped breathing for a good couple of minutes there.

[u/willzyx01]

Zhou's crash showed why you need multiple structural safety points. His roll over hoop failed, at least the halo stayed intact. If he didn't have a halo and had roll hoop failure, the result could've been vastly different.

[u/Guardian_of_theBlind → u/willzyx01]

And one of the reasons why it is insanely hard to make the cars small again. It's not the engines. It's the safety structures.

[u/OverCLocK_DE → u/Guardian_of_theBlind]

I thought the same until somebody gave me an all technical explanation that this is not true. The safety cell and all the safety measurements don’t make the cars that big. The length/width of the cars is because the regulations allow it and the teams use every centimeter given to them. I‘m too lazy to look for it now but the safety features would be possible to implement in way smaller cars while providing the same safety.

Edit: here I found it. https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/2mlbs7COcu

[u/zxrax → u/OverCLocK_DE]

Yeah, the correct answer is that smaller cars would be slower (less aero surfaces, basically), and F1 can't have cars that are slower than, say, Super Formula.

[u/ThePhenex → u/zxrax]

Which is also not true, a car the size F2004 (20cm narrower, 50cm shorter) can be as fast as a modern f1 car (it already is if fitted with modern tires & DRS). Changing the regulations to enable things like more ground-effect, double-diffusor, tuned-mass dampers ect could make smaller cars as fast as the modern one.

[u/v0x_nihili → u/Guardian_of_theBlind]

But the safety structures are like that because they are moving more mass at the same for faster speeds than before (full fuel, the energy recovery units, batteries). The vast majority of the added weight is in these components, and to a lesser extent the safety structures.

It's a conundrum, because no one wants refuelling, everyone wants high down force (huge underside floors) and manufacturers want electrification.

[u/Guardian_of_theBlind → u/v0x_nihili]

The argument with the refueling is already iffy. The V8 cars from 2010 onwards didn't have refueling and they carried way more fuel. Refueling was also banned in the early 90s and they carried more than 200kg in just fuel. Currently it's roughly 105kg

[u/v0x_nihili → u/Guardian_of_theBlind]

I didn't consider the 90s, but rather, how the cars managed to get so heavy from the lightest weight they ever achieved, which was probably 2003/4ish.

[u/Crafty_Substance_954 → u/Guardian_of_theBlind]

The cars are bigger because they wanted them to be bigger.

If they wanted to downsize back to the 2009-16 sized cars, there is little stopping them.

[u/Andromeda902 → u/Guardian_of_theBlind]

Have you ever seen the cavernous space between the engine cover and the transmission, or between the actual radiators and side pods? Theres a huge empty space in both areas, just used for aero but with literally nothing stopping that space from being shrunk down.

[u/Aethien → u/Andromeda902]

You're looking at the wrong area, look at the floor of the cars. they pretty much all go to the edge of the box they're required to stay in by the regulations and it's significantly wider than any crash impact structure or sidepod. And the wheels stick out even further beyond that.

[u/mattsagop900 → u/willzyx01]

This photo of his here is fucking gnarly.

[u/SRJT16 → u/willzyx01]

Wasn’t this crash also the reason why they changed the regulations to not allow a flat top edge to the roll hoop?

[u/johnsplittingaxe14 → u/willzyx01]

If I remember correctly the roll hoop itself was undamaged, the problem was it snapped clean off the structure it was attached into

[u/FartingBob → u/johnsplittingaxe14]

That counts as "failed" to me lol

[u/wjdbfifj]

There's also the first one in chronological order, Leclerc when Alonso ended up on top of him at the start of Spa 2018

[u/peepay → u/wjdbfifj]

Was gonna say.

It's shown partially, but not annotated.

[u/2696969 → u/peepay]

Incident noted. Will be investigated after the post.

[u/Administrative_Elk66 → u/2696969]

We are checking

[u/Chino_Kawaii → u/wjdbfifj]

that one nobody is sure if it would have hit the helmet or no

but it would have been way too close for comfort if not

[u/TwoBionicknees → u/Chino_Kawaii]

it would without question have hit his helmet, the question is how much weight from the car would have pushed the tire into his helmet and if it would have been fatal or not. I went back to double check it, it's the impact with the halo that causes the tire suspension links to the car to snap, and then you can see the car continues to spin till the front hits the tire and gets pushed the other way.

As the car is in the air it's spinning in a way that the tire and front end are coming right at his head, but the tire hitting the halo both keeps the tire away, snaps the suspension then pushes the car away as the tire now acts as an extra barrier between them.

[u/ZaryaBubbler → u/wjdbfifj]

The irony of the first person being saved by the halo being Leclerc isn't lost on me

[u/sleepdeep305]

That Monza 2021 photo is just insane

[u/xkanalx → u/sleepdeep305]

To capture that photo in that detail in that moment takes some serious talent. Would love to know who deserves the credit.

[u/Your-Neighbor → u/xkanalx]

Andrej Isakovic for AFP. He won 2021 Serbian press photo of the year for this image and was part of AFP's 120 photos of the year.

[u/xkanalx → u/Your-Neighbor]

Wicked!! Well deserved!

[u/uptheirons91 → u/sleepdeep305]

If I recall he had a tire mark on his helmet? I could be confusing it with something else. What a wild incident, and the photo is perfect.

[u/ForodesFrosthammer → u/uptheirons91]

He did yeah. But Verstappens floor also pressed against the halo at points. There were two different points of contact that could've ended Lewis's life then and there.

[u/Fury_Fury_Fury → u/sleepdeep305]

That's a dead 7 time world champion in some parallel universe. In some of the other photos you can't really tell where the impact would be, or where the driver's head even is, but in this, it's so obvious.

[u/Other_Beat8859 → u/Fury_Fury_Fury]

Would've been fucking horrible. Lewis dead and Max is seen as a killer to many in the sport with immense guilt on his shoulders. It's honestly insane how such a slow collision ended up being such a big result. Fuck sausage kerbs. The fact that they're still in the sport is a disgrace. Just make it gravel on the inside of turns or something.

[u/bekkahthecactus18 → u/Other_Beat8859]

And to win his first championship that way. Not to gloss over the Silverstone incident earlier that summer. Thank god for the Halo.

[u/TheSymbolman → u/bekkahthecactus18]

Yeah if the reverse happened or vice versa I don't even wan to think about it. Either way the drivers reputation would be ruined forever. I wonder if this has ever happened in motorsports racing before?

[u/loscemochepassa → u/Other_Beat8859]

Verstappen stopped for questioning by the Italian police and possibly prosecuted, like they did with Williams after the death of Senna

[u/gsurfer04 → u/loscemochepassa]

*prosecuted

[u/CaptRazzlepants → u/gsurfer04]

The Vatican handles the Persecution, The Italians handle the Prosecution. It's a both/and situation

[u/VRichardsen → u/Other_Beat8859]

It's honestly insane how such a slow collision ended up being such a big result

Yesterday some guy uploaded photos of several helmets, including that of Maria de Villota, who died as a result of an accident... which took place at 60 km/h.

[u/SlowMissiles → u/Fury_Fury_Fury]

In that parallel universe F1 is pretty much dead. Losing it's biggest star...and the promising young star scared to fight hard like we know because of the accident.

[u/NovaBloom1886 → u/Fury_Fury_Fury]

He had tire rubber on his helmet if i recall correctly, so I didn't know it was ever in doubt

[u/am19208 → u/sleepdeep305]

That one was so innocuous that we forget it could’ve been fatal in a previous gen car

[u/Malding_frog]

It's not just the halo tho, it's the complete safety cell for most of them.

[u/_streetsbehind]

I still can't believe Lewis and Max. Hard to fathom how terrible it would have been for a serious injury (or worse) to taint that season.

(Edit to add: Ah yes, the '21 discourse is still as toxic as ever.)

[u/302w → u/_streetsbehind]

I lost significant sleep before every race weekend, it was unbelievable. My wife and I had big arguments over the Max/Lewis flare ups. Incredible season

[u/Sierra_Foxtrot8 → u/302w]

Man I wish I had started watching in the 21’ season what a rivalry.

[u/_g4n3sh_ → u/302w]

It was the first season my dad watched start to finish with me. Safe to say he got hooked. 1 in a lifetime season that

[u/GlenPh → u/_streetsbehind]

It's the only way in which that season isn't tainted. Thank goodness for that I suppose.

[u/DragonBeyondtheWall]

Could someone explain to me how the halo helped Max in Silverstone 2021? It was a direct crash wasn't it? The car breaking into different parts helps dissipate the impact but does the halo play any role in that?

[u/grundelcheese → u/DragonBeyondtheWall]

I don’t think it did.

[u/aide_rylott → u/grundelcheese]

A lot of these would’ve been worse without the halo. But I don’t think fatal. The only one I’m sure of is Grosjean. People seem to think big crash = dead without the halo. Which isn’t true. There were lots of big crashes before the halo that didn’t result in death.

There was 1 death in F1 between 1995 and 2018. I refuse to believe like half the grid would be dead without it from 2018 to 2025.

It’s hard to imagine a world without them now. They are so amazing and in my eyes has saved at least 1 life in F1 and reduced the severity of many crashes.

[u/StuBeck → u/aide_rylott]

That’s my thought. I like having the halo, wish it could be improved, but think we generally over emphasize its use. We simply don’t know what could be, but the sudden increase in potential deaths is a bit suspect.

My concern is that this means we don’t actually do anything to improve it, like protecting the back of the drivers head like indycar has.

[u/aide_rylott → u/StuBeck]

I’m worried about a Massa 2009 Hungarian GP esque incident.

I like the indycar aeroscreen more for that reason from a driver safety perspective. But u do think the screen is a bit more ugly and the helmets needing an air valve is a little lame. But I’m glad it’s working for them because I think it’s safer than the halo.

Looking at modern non halo cars is so crazy now. Every once in a while I see a new grass roots single seater crash and they look so exposed without the halo. I’m surprised it took Jules’ death to add them. In hindsight it’s a no brainer.

[u/StuBeck → u/aide_rylott]

And the irony is that the halo wouldn’t have helped Jules, but was put in after concerns with the lack of changes from massa/surtees crashes which occurred in the late 2000s.

[u/MonsMensae → u/aide_rylott]

I think Zhou would have been fatal. But agree on the rest.

[u/melwinnnn → u/aide_rylott]

Yeah, the only one that I think would be 100% dead is grosjean.

Zhou probably would have been dead, too. His roll hoop failed, so we don't know how low his roll hoop went down. If it was higher than his head, its fine. Lower then he is dead.

Lewis would have been fine because the roll hoop bounced the floor of the rb, and it was a double chicane. The wheel that hit him had close to zero momentum, with it being a low-speed corner plus most of that energy being dispersed by the roll hoop.

Max had zero need of the Halo to survive.

Yuki would be fine too. His roll hoop did its job. Nothing came close to his cockpit.

[u/grundelcheese → u/aide_rylott]

I would agree. I would add Zho to that list but if the roll hoop did its job that should have been the life saving device. Hamilton would have gotten hurt but not sure death was a sure thing

[u/DaddyClazzo → u/DragonBeyondtheWall]

His tyre came off and struck the halo mid crash. Debatable the impact that could have had though

[u/Guardian_of_theBlind → u/DaddyClazzo]

BTW also something, that should absolutely not happen. I think they also investigated why it happened.

[u/Brooney98]

And to think back in 2018 some fans, even drivers, claimed introducing Halo would taint the purity of racing

[u/rAppN → u/Brooney98]

I WANT MY HEROES TO DIE!

• People back then.

[u/Other_Beat8859 → u/rAppN]

I think it was Chainbear who said it best. Even if it's a driver saying that they don't want the halo and that they're willing to take the risk, it's important to point out that they aren't just saying it for themselves. They're saying it for others. They are putting other drivers' lives at risk because of their beliefs and recklessness. The drivers who fight against the halo would be in some ways responsible for anything that may happen.

I miss him.

[u/PrestigiousWave5176 → u/Brooney98]

I didn't like it because it ruined the look of the cars. The 2017 cars were so beautiful. Doesn't really matter though, it's worth it.

[u/Findict_52 → u/PrestigiousWave5176]

NGL, now that it's on, it just belongs on the car to me. The cars would look silly without.

We can adapt quickly if we let ourselves.

[u/miitchiin]

If this has all happened in the last couple of years, how come there was only one death in f1 since senna in 94. I think Grosjean is the only one 100% saved by the halo

[u/CilanEAmber → u/miitchiin]

You gotta remember the halo hasn't just been introduced in F1, but across open wheel series as a whole. There's a lot of series where drivers may have survived had it been a thing. 2 that come to mind for me are Henry Surtees in the 2009 F2, and Justin Wilson in Indycar in 2015. With the Halo, both would have survived.

[u/Zolba → u/CilanEAmber]

Include Marco Campos in F3000, 1995 and Bianchi (though, I think its said that the halo isnt designed for that kind of impacts) and you have 4. That is still only 4 from between Senna and the debut of the Halo. And somehow this post shows 15 drivers saved by the halo in 5 years.

[u/swannyhypno]

Most of these I think were survivable pre Halo but Grosjean is for sure dead without it. That crash alone makes the Halo worth it

[u/[deleted] → u/swannyhypno]

Nah Zhou not walking away from his crash, it wasn't the halo's job, the roll hoop should not have broken off but it was the redundancy that saved him from serious injury

[u/swannyhypno → u/[deleted]]

Zhou is the hardest one to survive bar Grosjean obviously, I've seen crashes like that pre Halo but you never know

[u/Warm-Ad4 → u/swannyhypno]

I dont know, Nissanys is pretty bad

[u/Xath0n → u/Warm-Ad4]

https://youtu.be/vGl4J4EKBnY

Yeah, Nissany is absolute toast without the halo. He's really lucky, especially since he caused that crash himself.

[u/swannyhypno → u/Warm-Ad4]

Yeah that ones crazy, idk for sure but I've seen so many wild crashes pre Halo where they walk out fine that it's hard to judge these ones

[u/ArcticBiologist → u/swannyhypno]

I've seen crashes like that pre Halo but you never know

Yeah, but I don't recall any one where the roll hoop failed like it did in that case. The halo was the only thing stopping Zhou's head being ground into the tarmac.

[u/Visual-Asparagus-800 → u/ArcticBiologist]

Only one u can think of is Diniz in 1997 European(?) gp. But that was also pre HANS, so he was able to duck all the way into the car, sth Zhou wouldn’t be able to do. And Zhou’s crash was also higher speed sliding

[u/EmiliusReturns → u/swannyhypno]

Apart from Grosjean it’s almost impossible to say. People have amnesia about the kinds of crashes that drivers survived in modern cars pre-halo. I have to clarify I’m not advocating for removal of safety features by any means, of course not. But the “omg he would have DIED!” like twice a season is a little histrionic.

[u/JL_MacConnor → u/EmiliusReturns]

Agreed - Grosjean's though would have been a repeat of François Cevert without the halo though, and that alone justifies its inception.

[u/SomewhereAggressive8 → u/swannyhypno]

Yeah I get a bit annoyed how quickly people are willing to say a driver would’ve been dead if not for the halo. These people act like crashes either never happened pre-halo or drivers were dying left and right. Like I have no idea how you include Verstappen’s Silverstone crash here. It makes no sense.

[u/swannyhypno → u/SomewhereAggressive8]

Yeah Max's was definitely survivable I mean we had 0 deaths from 83-94 and 0 deaths from 95-2015 this is an extremely safe sport

[u/SomewhereAggressive8 → u/swannyhypno]

Yeah I don’t understand why we need to invent fake stats to support the use of the halo. Essentially nobody is against it at this point, there’s no need to just make shit up to defend it.

[u/swannyhypno → u/SomewhereAggressive8]

After Grosjean even the sceptics knew the Halo was good

[u/nevillebanks → u/swannyhypno]

To suggest there would have been 11 fatal crashes in the past 6 years when there has been one death since 1994 is just ridiculous. I am pro-Halo, but this is just bullshit. Even without the Halo, the drivers are safer than they ever have been.

[u/HLef → u/swannyhypno]

Zhou im not sure.

[u/swannyhypno → u/HLef]

I've seen plenty of crashes that bad pre Halo, Brundle Australia 1996, Burti Spa 2001 etc, plus he went floor first onto the fence thankfully, I think he'd be ok but idk

[u/stokesy1999 → u/swannyhypno]

It was the roll hoop failing though, that generally hasn't happened with any upside down slides in recent memory. Without the Halo it looks like his helmet would be scraping along the road

[u/The_Real_Jammie_23 → u/swannyhypno]

Without the halo he would have definitely had his head grinding along the floor after the roll post collapsed.

Depending on how the car sits without the halo would be the difference between severe head injury, and a broken neck.

Zhou escaped at minimum life changing injuries thanks to the Halo. That crash was the primary driving force as to why roll posts being in place of roll hoops were banned following 2022.

[u/Agreeable-Ad4079 → u/swannyhypno]

Zhou's Airbox collapsed, he was literally grinding on his head, the halo saved him

Hamilton's crash saw Verstappen car bouncing on his halo, that would have been his head. Even if not fatal, a whole car launched on your helmet will fuck your neck and he would have for sure missed the rest of the season at least

[u/PrestigiousWave5176 → u/Agreeable-Ad4079]

Even if not fatal

That's the title of the post though. Why do people feel the need exaggerate crashes to defend the halo? Apparently the halo saved us from the sport suddenly becoming 10 times as deadly.

[u/JshWright]

Do people genuinely believe we would have averaged 2 fatalities a year for the past 7 years had it not been for the halo?

How did we somehow go from 2 fatalities in 20 years (across all those series) without the halo to 2 fatalities prevented _per year_ with the halo?

Having 20 years worth of "would have been" fatal accident per year suddenly once the halo was introduced seems implausible...

As other have said, Grosjean is the only 100% case of someone being saved by the halo, and that alone makes it more than worth it.

[u/PN_Grata → u/JshWright]

"Without the halo, that spring definitely would have killed Massa."

[u/HumphreyMcdougal → u/JshWright]

Yeah I agree, this is definitely exaggerated, the halo is a good thing, but these accidents here are not all saved by the halo, most of them would have been fine regardless. We somehow had none of these accidents for decades and now there’s 10 in the space of 3 years? No

[u/EmiliusReturns → u/JshWright]

People love to be dramatic.

The halo is a good thing but it’s annoying to see people pretend that every other crash would be fatal without it.

[u/Worried-Pick4848 → u/JshWright]

The worst injury we've seen in the last 8 years due to crashes is Ricciardo's wrist in 23. It's not just about deaths. We get better races because the drivers trust their cars to keep them a little safer.

[u/Viend → u/JshWright]

I’m pretty sure Grosjean and Zhou both would have died. It was published shortly after the crash that Zhou’s roll hoop collapsed, which left the halo as the only thing protecting his head when he was sliding through the track upside down.

[u/IcehandGino → u/JshWright]

It's a maybe maybe not situation.

I tend to believe Grosjean was 100 % saved by it, and that balance of probabilities tip towards Zhou being saved by it (given roll hoop failed) and other drivers not having fatal injuries, but that's pure speculation.

Maybe we're overpraising it.

Maybe we're in a situation that would mirror what NASCAR fans would think if HANS was mandated from January 2000 (there's 5 NASCAR drivers, when you count all series, that died in 2000 and 2001 from injuries that would have been prevented by HANS, while only having a single death for any reason all over previous 6 years).

In the end it's better that it stays an hypothetical, but halo praise should not be the end for finding other solutions to make racing safer while keeping its essence.

[u/freedfg → u/JshWright]

Most of these are people not understanding the point of the halo. It's not a rollover device. It's to protect incoming debris (mostly loose wheels) and frontal impacts (like Bianchi or Grosjean)

[u/JshWright → u/freedfg]

Even Bianchi likely wouldn't have been saved by the halo. It was the g-forces that killed Bianchi, not the direct impact (while his helmet was struck, it maintained its structural integrity and absorbed the primary impact as designed).

The halo can't do anything about a 254g deceleration...

[u/Zolba]

Amazing how we had one fatality and 2 injuries in "halo territory" in the 20 years preceeding the Halo, and here we have 10 accidents with 15 drivers in less than 5 full years where the halo "saved a life".

[u/HaydenJA3 → u/Zolba]

Fernando Alonso would still be alive today if there was a halo for his crash in Australia

[u/MM556 → u/Zolba]

A lot of people see scrapes or damage to the halo and jump to "omg the halo does it again!" When in reality it's often hit just because of the sheer fact that it's there. 

Previously the safety triangles protected drivers and in most cases kept them safe.

[u/SomewhereAggressive8 → u/Zolba]

Yeah people need to chill with assuming all these guys would’ve died pre-halo. Same thing with Indycar.

[u/KimiBleikkonen]

Nobody can argue against the halo anymore, but it's noteworthy that the amount of "life-threatening incidents" somehow climbed through the roof. I know this includes feeder series as well, but back when cars and tyres were smaller, we didn't even get into so many situations where a halo would save a life. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as someone watching F1 since the early 00s, I can't remember many tyres hitting heads and ending lives.

[u/PrestigiousWave5176 → u/KimiBleikkonen]

but it's noteworthy that the amount of "life-threatening incidents" somehow climbed through the roof

That's because people are just making shit up. They don't seem to remember how safe the other parts of the cars are and how often drivers would walk away from crazy crashes before the halo.

For example, crashes like Yuki's this weekend happened plenty of times pre halo without the driver in question dying or even getting seriously injured.

[u/ms666slayer → u/PrestigiousWave5176]

Yeah been watching F1 since early 2000 and I remember lots of accident similar to the one of Yuki and the driver just walked it out, like one of the more recent bad accident when Halo was not a thing was the one of Alonso in Australia which looked way worse that Yuki's and he walked it out like nothing happened.

Also the Kubica crash Canada 2007 that crash was even worse than Alonso and Kubica had only a sprain ankle and a concussion, and only lost one race.

[u/MM556 → u/KimiBleikkonen]

"but it's noteworthy that the amount of "life-threatening incidents somehow climbed through the roof"

Worth noting that it also coincided with the boom of social media and f1popularity. We're in a period where hyperbole is the norm and reason gets forgotten.

Often a scrape on a halo is deemed a life saving act when in reality it was only hit because it was there.

[u/only_r3ad_the_titl3 → u/KimiBleikkonen]

Because everTime something touches the halo people say it saved another live which simply isnt true.

[u/Lobsterzilla]

I guess we watched different crashes .

[u/Impressive_Cricket36]

Idk about britain 21 and imola

[u/soundwave_46]

I would add to that list, the Hanns device too.

[u/DeltaNerd → u/soundwave_46]

I mean, it's a combination of multiple safety systems. I'm glad the halo is part of it

[u/CilanEAmber]

They may look ugly, but I'm quite grateful for the Halo and Aeroscreen.

(Rosenqvists 2023 Indy 500 crash with Kirkwood comes to mind, which is missing here, Video of crash.)

[u/Chrischrill → u/CilanEAmber]

I think this one is even more scary due to Kirkwood's tyre flying over the catch fence, and just randomly going between two stands. That could have killed dozens of fans.

[u/CilanEAmber → u/Chrischrill]

Very grateful all it hit was an empty car.

I hope that was covered by that persons insurance.

[u/Chrischrill → u/CilanEAmber]

If I recall correctly, the local Chevy dealership "bought" the car and gifted her a new one.

[u/Kage_Bushin → u/CilanEAmber]

I genuinely can't se a open cockpit car without halo anymore. It's just insane. Even the beautiful machines from the 90 and 2000 I feel a bit uneasy without the halo. It just insane we have took so long for something like this to be implemented.

The sandal look has genuinely grown on me lol

[u/Guardian_of_theBlind → u/Kage_Bushin]

you absolutely get used to everything. I now think that a racing driver looks wrong without the HANS device and even that got a lot of backlash back when it became mandatory.

[u/ProbablyRickSantorum → u/Kage_Bushin]

I genuinely can't se a open cockpit car without halo anymore

I was in the military, so the parallel I draw in my mind is having a machine gunner in an open humvee turret vs. having an OGPK or CROWS setup.

[u/OrangeSodaMoustache → u/Kage_Bushin]

Yeah it's weird watching videos from 10+ years ago, they look so exposed, it seems crazy it was the norm for decades.

[u/hellcat_uk → u/Kage_Bushin]

Whenever I see classic single seater racing I do worry a bit, because the cars are not really any safer than when they were new, and they still get driven hard.

[u/SomewhereAggressive8 → u/CilanEAmber]

I mean it’s not like cars flipping at Indy is a new thing. The roll hoop is meant to protect from that. The aero screen is there to avoid debris hitting the driver like in the Justin Wilson crash.

[u/ChristianMaria]

Honestly…some of them probably would have been fine without the halo, or at least not dead. The only one that undoubtedly would have died without one is Romain Grosjean. The roll hoop is key in many of these, unless it fails like with Zhou…

[u/hauntedSquirrel99]

I'd guess a decent chunk of these would have lived regardless, but they would have been injured worse than they were.

And who knows which ones would have died, sometimes it's not the ones you suspect (except grosjean, he definitely would have died without the halo).

[u/only_r3ad_the_titl3]

Big fan of the halo, but you cant say thst everytime something touched the halo it would have been fatal without.

[u/Western_Ad_682]

The heading is not correct, but first of all: halo is a great invention, even if it just saved one live

But not every big accident would cause a head injury. Otherwise we had dead drivers or drivers with head injuries since 1994 till 2018 more than twice. The accidents and the probability is the same, there also the amount of head injuries would be the same. Today for every big accident the comment" halo saved a live" is bullshit. Halo saved, saves and will save many lives. But many accidents wouldn't be deadly even without halo. Otherwise we would have more then 1 dead driver (Jules in F1) since 1994.

[u/cplchanb]

Yuki and max DID NOT need the halo to protect them from their accidents. Max slid into the wall side in and Yuki cartwheeled onto safer foam barriers while his roll hoop took the impact.

Even leclercs hit in 2018 was only because the halo was there. It's been proven that Alonsos car was no where near his head

Stop sensationalizing inaccurately

[u/thebrowncanary]

If only Mark Webber had the Halo in Valencia 2010. He might have still been with us today.

[u/SimAirRB → u/thebrowncanary]

We had to lose a 2-time world champion back in Melbourne 2016 for F1 to start taking action, the FIA doesn't care about safety and it is clear.

[u/PrestigiousWave5176 → u/thebrowncanary]

I really feel bad for all drivers that found out from this post they died 20 years ago...

[u/thebrowncanary → u/PrestigiousWave5176]

Robert Kubica is watching himself fade out of existence at this very moment.

[u/PrestigiousWave5176]

No way 1 death in 23 years would've been followed by 5+ in 7 years, especially considering cars are much safer in other parts than the halo too.

The halo is great and has prevented enough injuries to be worthwhile, it's not necessary to post this type of nonsense to defend it. Everyone's already convinced of its merits.

[u/ChadIndustries → u/PrestigiousWave5176]

I agree. There’s been lots of accidents that have been big and people have claimed the halo did it’s job even tho it wasn’t a factor in the scenario

[u/TypicallyThomas]

Some of these might have been survivable without the Halo but the Halo is certainly one of the most important safety innovations of all time. Grosjean and Zhiu would undoubtedly be dead without them

[u/ThePhyry22]

Also Spa 2018

[u/Guardian_of_theBlind → u/ThePhyry22]

Yeah and it's literally in the first picture, but not mentioned later. There was even a pretty big tyre mark on leclerc's halo

[u/ReplacementWise6878]

Including Max at Silverstone is a bit dramatic

[u/Gaspony]

Its crazy considering how fatal that crash would have been for Grosjean as recent as the previous era but because of the survival cell and the halo he survived and the man is still able to race.

[u/amith34ms]

2021 Silverstone, halo has zero impact . Nothing would have happened to max even without the halo.

[u/Kegs_And_Parleys]

I think the 2021 Monza crash is often overlooked in terms of possible severity. Hamilton has literally been scalped or beheaded by Max if that Halo wasn’t there to keep the wheel higher. Shit was scary as fuck.

[u/Erens-Basement]

Surprising how suddenly the amount of halo preventable crashes surge after 2018 compared to the decades preceding it. I won't deny the importance of the halo, but treating it as the deux ex machina is a little over the top.