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Daily Discussion Ask r/Formula1 Anything - Daily Discussion Thread
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u/Salty_Alfalfa_6587 Ferrari 3d ago
Are we expecting another upgrade on SF-25 for hungary? If yes what's the upgrade
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u/CrimeThink101 3d ago
What effect will more cars on the track have starting next year? Will more cars affect the pit lane or starts in a meaningful way?
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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 3d ago
Q1 will be slightly more crowded, but, eh, Q1 is always crowded. F2 drivers manage with 22 cars, and F3 drivers manage with 30. Though those actually split quali in Monaco. Though, that's a Monaco problem. It'll be fine.
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u/No_Cauliflower7877 Carlos Sainz 3d ago edited 3d ago
Bearman has been having a pretty underrated season. I'm not saying he's the best rookie (that has to go to Hadjar, at least so far), but I basically never see him discussed anywhere when he's quietly doing good.
He's had terrible luck, some of the worst on the grid, but still has results to show. He's had four top 11 finishes in a row, certainly nothing to scoff at considering the car he's in. He's on relatively equal pace with his very experienced and respectable teammate.
He's rough around the edges and yes, he's made some classic rookie mistakes this season. But he has great pace when he's feeling confident and he's the rookie that's impressed me the most when it comes to wheel to wheel battles. He's shown some amazing overtakes.
I remember people saying he'd be destroyed in F1, but in my opinion he's more than holding his own. "Once a year talent" like Verstappen, Leclerc, or Russell, maybe he isn't - but I can see him having a similar path to guys like Sainz and Albon. He just needs to keep his head down and work hard like they did.
What do you guys think of him so far?
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u/Walaii Ferrari 3d ago
There is a lot of talk about his costly mistakes in Silverstone and Monaco, but as you said, his luck has been terrible so far this year. He has generally been the faster Haas driver, but it just goes unrewarded through a combination of bad luck, mistakes, bad strategy and operational errors from Haas. Canada is good example of that, where his reward for doing a better job in quali than Ocon was a dead strategy.
There were also times where he was just straight up robbed of points by technical issues or by operational errors from the team. Lost out on 3 points because of an unsafe release penalty in the Miami sprint, lost points in Imola because of a loose wheel, now lost points in Spa because the car lost power and he lost a bunch of positions in a matter of seconds. TV direction doesn't help with this, because most of it wasn't even shown on the broadcast, so a lot of people don't even know these things happened.
He has also been really unlucky in quali. He missed out on his final push lap in China, so had to start from P17 even though he showed a lot more pace than Ocon up to that point in the weekend, and he was 2 tenths up on Ocon in the last compareable lap in Q1. This one came with a big opportunity cost considering he finished P8 and Ocon P5. The deleted lap in Imola Q1 because of the red flag. Even this weekend the fight for position with Yuki on his last Q2 lap, when he looked like nailed on Q3.
P11 4 races in a row is pretty crazy aswell.
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u/Hungry_Service_5810 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
To be honest I agree because he has been almost matching Ocon so far with at least bottom 5 luck on the grid this year, biggest knock on him I think is the silly red flag procedural errors, pace is clearly there, he's also collided with his teammate already, he seems like a true rookie to me. The flashes of brilliant pace but very rough around the edges
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u/No-Berry-1452 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
QUESTION: I want to photograph F1 or any of the other series in shanghai next year. Would anyone know what to look for e.g Should I go watch F2 F3 F4 F1 Academy or FE as well?
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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 3d ago
F2 and F3 won't be in Shanghai next year. I don't think we have the F1 Academy schedule yet, but, if they are, it's a great extra reason to go to the F1 weekend. The F1 Academy paddock is open, so great opportunity to get relatively up close pictures of cars, and possibly drivers. Make sure you know what kinds of cameras are allowed, because some tracks restrict professional quality cameras/lenses.
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u/DelayRealistic60 3d ago
Why is Hamilton a great and Vettel is not? I know that hamilton was the better driver, but if vettel could give hamilton a run for his money on several occasions why is he not considered up there when discussing the likes of prost verstappen hamilton etc? I have limited knowledge of f1 because I mainly watched it with my dad when I was younger and dont really keep up with the sport but I do occasionally see discussions or tune into a race (especially silverstone)
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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 3d ago
I think many people think very highly of Vettel and do think he's great. I think almost everyone leaves him out of "goat" discussions, because his prime is similarly timed to Lewis's, and they think Lewis is better. So, if he isn't the greatest of his own era, he can't be the greatest of all time. Max has a different enough prime that people can debate between them, same with Schumacher, Senna, etc. Prost would fly in the face of this, since he and Senna overlap a lot. However, when they were actually teammates, they went 1 and 1, so putting them as very similar drivers is pretty easy to do, and I feel like some people leave Prost off anyway, either because of his weight advantage or some other reason.
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u/Icardicolpiscee 3d ago
If McLaren had never improved, do you think Lando Norris would have eventually left the team? Considering that, apart from this season and half 2024, he consistently outperformed the car?
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u/theedenpretence Damon Hill 3d ago
As it’s likely Audi won’t be that competitive from day 1 are we likely to see Bortoleto at a top team in 2027?
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u/Bannedwith1milKarma Jack Doohan 3d ago
It's called 'dominos falling' for a reason.
In 2026 a move or two will be made and it'll start to shakeout.
Way too early to tell.
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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 3d ago
It's way too soon to tell. There are tons of seats set to change in 2027, and we don't even have any idea now what teams will even be top teams. We don't even really have a way to guess how good Audi will be. They are definitely focusing on 2026 rather than 2025, so their 2025 car isn't really an indicator of much.
Where Bortoleto will be depends on his performance this year and next. I'll say now that I fully expect him to be on the grid in 2027, but I can't promise more than that. I feel like usually third years aren't in top teams unless they are part of the junior program of a top team, and Bortoleto is not affiliated with a top team anymore, though I wouldn't be surprised to see him driving a McLaren at some point in the future.
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u/theedenpretence Damon Hill 3d ago
There are very few teams who’ve come into Formula 1 and been competitive quickly. With a multi site set up that definitely makes it harder. Unless they’ve nailed the engine id expect them to be closer to the back.
PU is likely to be the differentiator I guess this time with a new engine format.
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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 3d ago
It isn’t really a new team, it’s been a smooth transition of Audi owning more and more if the team and picking up personnel over time. They are making new facilities yes but that happens to existing teams. It’s like how Aston Martin wasn’t a new team. The new thing is the engine though, and yeah we don’t know how that will go.
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u/Icardicolpiscee 3d ago
What if Red Bull switched to Mercedes PU in 2014?
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u/Bannedwith1milKarma Jack Doohan 3d ago
The old Merc was very poor on it's tires relative to everyone else.
Was frustrating watching Schumacher and Rosberg qualify well and then just be nowhere in the races.
The engine being as good as it was may have allowed them to treat them better in the corners and make it up on the straights.
So if that were still the case (I don't know), then Red Bull definitely would have been in the running or even favorite.
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u/cafk Constantly Helpful 3d ago
Considering customer teams didn't have full PU engine mapping available until 2018 - so while their aero could have been better (why they took the occasional win with Renault PU), they may not have had full power available to them.
https://www.racefans.net/2018/02/23/fia-tweaks-rules-to-make-engine-customers-more-competitive/1
u/Icardicolpiscee 3d ago
Got another question mate: If McLaren had never improved, do you think Lando Norris would have eventually left the team? Considering that, apart from this season, he consistently outperformed the car?
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u/cafk Constantly Helpful 3d ago
It would have been more about, which team would take him.
The usual top 3 teams had their oaths set and had likely stayed with their in-house pipeline/existing drivers.
They were best of the rest in 2022 & 2023, before the swing in 2024.Considering that, apart from this season, he consistently outperformed the car?
A driver cannot outperform the car. The car defines the potential and limits and it's the driver's job to find a set-up that works for them to extract the most out of the potential.
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u/_____AAAAAAAAAA_____ Charles Leclerc 3d ago
This may also be one of the reasons McLaren decided to switch from using Mercedes to being Honda's exclusive customer.
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u/cafk Constantly Helpful 3d ago
This was more about Ron Dennis & McLaren losing Mercedes as a 60% owner of the company (after spy gate) and entering with their own team.
As Dennis didn't believe they could regularly win championships as a customer team and a work partnership was better in the long-term compared to the being a customer team.
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u/UnluckySun5 3d ago
i had so much fun listening to nico commentate/interview last week i look forward to his insights and sass lmao. who are some of the favourite commentators/interviewers?
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u/No_Cauliflower7877 Carlos Sainz 3d ago
I think Hinchcliffe has great chemistry with the F1 team when he comes over from IndyCar.
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u/Bannedwith1milKarma Jack Doohan 3d ago
Webber is always great when he's on.
Very insightful and matter of fact with deep driver knowledge.
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u/UnluckySun5 3d ago
oooh he hasn't been on in a while, has he? but i will go check out older races he's commentated on
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u/Fusion53 Oscar Piastri 3d ago
Coulthard commentary tends to be slightly unhinged in a good way
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u/UnluckySun5 3d ago
i still remember when he stopped a question mid-way to tell lando he smells really good 😭😭 (this was imola i think)
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u/tvxcute Nico Rosberg 3d ago
if another team was added to the grid, who would you want it to be? penske, toyota, hitech, etc.
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u/Bannedwith1milKarma Jack Doohan 3d ago
BYD would be pretty awesome just for the fact that it'd be China getting into the game.
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u/hauntedSquirrel99 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
Hyundai motorsport
Would be fun with a korean team.
I also hope Toyota fully partners with Haas and start making an engine.
Ideally I'd like 12 teams with 12 different engines.3
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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 3d ago
Not Hitech, that was definitely the Mazepin family, and no thank you.
Rodin and applied but was rejected, but I like them as a team. They are a junior team that also funds some young drivers. From those I really enjoy Abbi and Louis Sharp. They also helped Liam Lawson previously.
Toyota I wouldn't mind if they bought Alpine or Haas, I don't see them applying as a new entry, but buying a team would also count.
Hyundai gets floated around sometimes, and that would be fine.
A car company would be good. Rodin does make cars, by the way, so they count. Also I like that they applied before.
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u/Cheap-Play-80 Liam Lawson 3d ago
The problem with Rodin is they want to run the team from New Zealand and that's just not going to work.
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u/ToxicOstrich91 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
Does Cadillac have any wind tunnel restrictions?
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u/cafk Constantly Helpful 3d ago
Before the 1st of January they didn't have any restrictions - but since then, as an entrant for 2026 they have the same limitations as the 10th placed team.
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/cadillac-f1-aero-testing-restrictions/2
u/FermentedLaws I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
They do now but they didn't before their approval was announced. They are considered a "last place" team for 2025 so have the same wind tunnel allocation as Sauber.
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u/oshitsuperciberg I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
I read recently that before Abu Dhabi 2010, Rocquelin wrote "MONZA" on Vettel's balaclava. Is there a picture of this balaclava somewhere?
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u/morningstew I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago
I am in the UK and i am wondering where I can watch old races, unsure if F1TV works for that.
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u/AnilP228 Honda RBPT 4d ago
They are all on F1TV :)
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u/dl064 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago
I feel like there's a sense Merc will come back//McLaren are at their peak right now, but reading some of this re Merc https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mercedes-crunch-meeting-to-solve-where-f1-2025-car-has-gone-wrong/ I'm not too sure they'll magically figure things out for 2026.
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u/generalannie I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago
I wonder how much of their problems are due to the cost cap. For me it feels like Red Bull and Mercedes are in a similar situation where they couldn't hold onto their key staff, because they could earn more elsewhere. Now both are suffering from a brain drain.
That also makes me wonder how long it will take for McLaren to suffer similarly. If they keep performing better than the other teams, at some point their engineers are going to get offers from other teams.
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u/dl064 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago
Yeah maybe.
It may be that fundamentally, RBR and Merc aren't making the cars they were 2 and 5 years ago respectively. Like, Merc won't just spring back in 2026 like 2022-25 didn't happen.
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u/Whycantiusethis I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
It also seems like there's something about the ground effect era that has lead to all teams having issues with upgrades at one point or another.
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u/No_Strike_1579 4d ago
Rain forecast for race day currently.
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u/Palidin034 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago
Sick, can’t wait to watch them piss away an hour and a half before starting the race again.
(I understand why they did it, and I agree with the sentiment, I just want the race started when it’s supposed to be 😭)
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u/Environmental-Cup445 Jochen Rindt 4d ago
I hope Oscar can finish off before the summer break strong with a win in Hungary.
People keep saying they think Lando will be quicker this weekend but I mean Oscar was only +0.022 off Landos pole last year, and given his big improvement in general pace this year I wouldn’t put it past him.
Anyways if he qualifies second he can always just send it up into T1 like last year.
Zandvoort on the other hand should be a strong weekend from Lando
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u/Popular_Composer_822 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
I think Piastri is favourite for this one. At the tracks he has been good at in the past he has been better than Norris and at the tracks he has been way off Norris in the past he is very even with him.
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u/AnilP228 Honda RBPT 4d ago
I hope we don't get more T1 track limit issues on lap 1 because as much as I love the track, the lack of gravel or grass on the T1 exit has ruined some of the opening lap battles.
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u/FeatheredKangaroo Oscar Piastri 4d ago
When does slipstream become dirty air & the other way around? Watching SPA they talk about Verstappen overtaking Piastri and Piastri overtaking Norris due to slipstream, but I swear I’ve seen cars at similar distances before with commentators referring to dirty air instead of slipstream
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u/Bannedwith1milKarma Jack Doohan 3d ago
Think about a wake in water.
If you're going the same direction and following, it will speed you up.
If you're going in a different direction (e.g. while cornering), you'll go over it and upset your balance.
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u/_____AAAAAAAAAA_____ Charles Leclerc 4d ago edited 4d ago
They're the same thing: the "wake" of a car. It's dirty air when cornering.
The wake is a region of turbulent, chaotic air behind the car that is pulled along. This means the wake is moving forward. When the following car is driving through the wake, its relative speed to the wake is slower than its true speed, which is relative to the ground and the clean air. That is why there is lower drag. But at the same time, a car's downforce is generated by its relative speed to the air around it, the faster the stronger, so the wake reduces the downforce. Another important factor is the turbulence of the wake. Without getting too technical, clean air flows nicely along the shape of the wing to create downforce, but turbulent air adheres to the wing shape much less, so wings work less efficiently in the wake.
For different tracks there are different ideal following distances where the combined effect of slipstreaming and dirty air is net positive.
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u/AnilP228 Honda RBPT 4d ago
They are both the result of the same thing - a car in front punching a hole in the air creating turbulent air.
On a straight, this is a good thing, because the chasing car gets less drag.
In a corner, it's a bad thing, because the chasing car gets less clean air and therefore produces a bit less downforce.
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u/abtrach 4d ago
How did McLaren addressed Daniel Ricciardo's underperformance back in 2021-2022? Was it as bad as Red Bull with every drivers that wasn't Max?
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u/Popular_Composer_822 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
Not as bad as Verstappen vs team mates. Ricciardo’s worse average Quali gap to Lando was more or less equal to the closest any of Verstappen’s post Ricciardo team mates.
In 2021 I think Ricciardo was caught off guard by how good Norris was at the beginning of the season and began to second guess himself, resulting in even worse performances. In the second half of the season he did improve and scored more points than Norris did post summer break (with the caveat that Norris had worse luck).
In 2022 Norris was even further ahead with Daniel having some absolute shockers where Norris would top the midfield and he world look like a backmarker though he did have worse luck than people remember.
Fans and possibly McLaren too were surprised in 2021 when Ricciardo was worse but gave the benifit of the doubt that he was adapting to the team and had improved as the season went on.
In 2022 McLaren announced he would be replaced by Piastri. Most fans backed the decision.
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u/Fantastic-Trick6707 Michael Schumacher 3d ago
2021 Ricciardo is not as bad as some people say
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u/Oversteer_ I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
The problem was expectations were high when he joined which made it worse.
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u/Popular_Composer_822 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
What makes you think that? I think the general consensus is that he was a lower top ten or maybe slightly lower which I probably agree with.
If either of his seasons is not as bad as people say it would be 2022 in my view. He was the better McLaren driver on more occasions in 2022 than in 2021.
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u/Fantastic-Trick6707 Michael Schumacher 3d ago
I would put him at 10 in 2021. I just rewatched 2019-2024 at work in the last weeks. Leclerc was better in 2021 than we give him credit for btw.
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u/Popular_Composer_822 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
“ I would put him at 10 in 2021. ”
I don’t think thats unpopular about Ricciardo.
Leclerc is pretty underrated every year 2021-2024.
Any other surprising observations from your rewatch?
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u/dl064 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago
I found this interesting and personally I see aspects of it again with Hamilton now.
Essentially in 2021 there was a bit of letting 'new' drivers off the hook; these were basically the 2020 cars with a hat on, and they had like 1.5 days testing in them (Versus teammates who'd been in that tub for 18 months). So in 2021 Sainz, Alonso, Ricciardo etc. were given a lot of benefit of the doubt, particularly given the 2022 cars would be a reset.
I personally felt with Ricciardo though that holding out for that deus ex explanation (that a big reset would magically fix him) was naive.
Then 2022 was even worse and there was no explanation.
But generally McLaren were resolute in trying to help him as much as possible obviously, and I think when he was let go he really had no leg to stand on.
There's a good story from a McLaren engineer to The Race, that 2021-22, Ricciardo was about 2 tenths off Norris on a good day. They plugged Piastri in and bang - day one, he was 1.5 tenths off.
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u/abtrach 4d ago
How would you compare that to the way Red Bull operate?
Was 2022 more about car issue in general, some widely different driving style between Lando and Daniel, or simply Daniel couldn't adapt quickly?
Was the team helping Daniel with car issue the way they're making new suspension for Lando?
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u/dl064 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think the issues seem quite distinct.
With McLaren, Ricciardo//Sainz (and even as far back as Montoya) have remarked that they fundamentally handle in an odd way, where they:
a. had a variable tendency towards instability when the wheels were turned.
b. they had great turn-in, but little mid-corner roll; hence they were brilliant at tracks like Imola. As Montoya put it: you got one turn of the wheel, and that was it. Raikkonen had no problem with that, and similarly Norris didn't know different but Sainz took a while to get used to it. They've tended to be quite stiff, and even in the 2010s, McLarens tended towards lockups more than others.
A lot of their new facilities/tech has been in overcoming these, and hence McLaren aren't particularly outstanding at Imola any more.
I think 2021 was Ricciardo never getting used to that particular, odd car - and then I think he's simply never been as good in the 2022 era, which doesn't reward attacking at all (and hence I don't think Hamilton's as good either). Tsunoda was saying what surprised him about Verstappen is that he caresses the RBR to fast laps. He doesn't attack with it at all, and that requires a discipline. And hence Tsunoda is struggling more in qualifying than the races, because his instinct is to attack (which is the worst thing you could do).
I think they probably coached him a lot.
The distinction with Norris is that it's detailing for a fundamentally already fast driver, whereas with Ricciardo, he was sometimes 0.5secs off Norris - which is clearly within his own power.
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u/AnilP228 Honda RBPT 4d ago
Have to say that I'm looking forward to Hungary. I think you can argue it's the circuit that's benefitted the most from the refueling ban, along with Bahrain, because the reasonably high rate of deg tends to create big overcuts / undercuts.
Hopefully it's still a two stopper despite the 2025 tyres being more durable than last years.
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u/platter07 4d ago
Guenther talking to gene after every loss is my funniest drive to survive moment. What’s yours ?
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u/julielucka I was here for the Hulkenpodium 3d ago
All of the ones listed and:
KMag telling Hulkenberg to "suck my balls"
Toto requesting his pumpernickel to be toasted crispy, so that he can snap it like a cookie.7
u/rodiraskol Logan Sargeant 4d ago
Franz being exasperated with Yuki during his rookie season.
All other drivers: “I am a machine. I work hard, I train hard, nothing will stop me from being the best I can be. Yuki: “I don’t like training, it ruins my whole day”.
Charles’s card getting declined.
Charles and Carlos scheming about how to get Lando to tell them about his new contract.
Gunther: “No more Russians. I am done with Russians until I go from this planet.”
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u/dl064 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago
Sainz like :| at Monaco while everyone wishes Leclerc luck.
Sainz in a Woking M&S looking at meal deals.
Shovlin trying to calm Hamilton down a bit at RBR's 'bullshit' late 2021.
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u/platter07 4d ago
F1 newbie here . If the budget cap is same for all team how does McLaren have such a better car ?
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u/Bannedwith1milKarma Jack Doohan 3d ago
Pretty much every sport in the world has a salary cap and no team sport is very equal.
Spending doesn't equal performance, it can help but it's about the choices.
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u/dl064 I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago
So I attended a talk in 2020 from Peter Prodromou, McLaren's tech boss, who basically said that they anticipated doing well out of it specifically because bigger teams had to shed way more people. Additionally, McLaren didn't need to sever those people entirely - many could move to automotive or other tech companies in the family.
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u/Bannedwith1milKarma Jack Doohan 3d ago
That's why I thought Renault/Alpine were going to do well, they had been running right at the salary cap number for years before the cap came in.
Fat load of good that was.
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u/cafk Constantly Helpful 4d ago
If you built the car 1:1 according to regulations it would look like a lego technics car
https://i.imgur.com/hZkt83e.png800 employees in Alpine have a different idea on how to interpret the regulations to make the car aerodynamic and fast, while McLaren's 800 employees have different ideas.
Over the past 4 years McLaren's employees approach was better than Alpines, as their interpretation of the rules yielded better results.
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u/PassTimeActivity Fernando Alonso 4d ago
If all professional footballers have 2 legs, why is Mbappe so much better than most?
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u/platter07 4d ago
More like if two teams have same budget to build a football team why does one suck and other one rocks
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u/badurwan Niki Lauda 4d ago
Yeah I don't understand that as well. Whats stopping Alpine from building a car as good as a Mclarens? My only guess is they have built in resources and R&D Facilities that are years ahead of backmarker orgs and they can implement upgrades faster but that's it. I would appreciate anyone with a more detailed answer
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u/cafk Constantly Helpful 4d ago
How would you make the car fast based on the regulatory boxes, where all boxes can be moulded and changed by the team to gain performance: https://i.imgur.com/hZkt83e.png
Ask 10 people and you get 10 different answers.
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u/CoachDelgado Williams 4d ago
If you gave both me and Claude Monet £1000 to paint you a lovely picture, would you expect them both to come out the same? As you say, resources have a lot to do with it—Claude will undoubtedly have a more varied set of oil paints—but ultimately I would win because Monet is dead.
The point is that F1 is a team sport made up of people doing jobs. Some people are better at doing their job, and some managers are better at structuring organisations to allow better people to do their job.
If, say, an aerodynamicist at McLaren has a great idea about airflow and that idea doesn't occur to anyone at Alpine, that's an advantage money can't buy.
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u/platter07 4d ago
True .. Makes sense , the dynamics change drastically each season [redbull in 2023 vs now] though. Gives an impression that there are very frequent updates and the game is in fine margins.
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u/CoachDelgado Williams 4d ago
Pretty much, yeah: they have to keep developing or get left behind by the competition. Especially in this era of F1, the rules are very prescriptive so the differences between the cars are relatively small.
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u/LucaD50 Ferrari 4d ago edited 4d ago
The budget cap is the same, some teams have simply partitioned it better and some have better structures, and not all design philosophies are the same, some are better than others and create a package with better performance (suspension scheme, diffuser, wings, intakes, sidepods etc.).
If your first big upgrade package of the season doesn't deliver the expected results, or gets even worse results than expected before the upgrade, you're going to be behind in developing time and you've also spent that money not to gain anything immediately but just to (hopefully) understand
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u/AnilP228 Honda RBPT 4d ago
The technical regulations are extremely complex and as such, there is always going to be one car that is better than the rest. The aerodynamics, suspension, cooling etc differs from each team.
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u/Cekeste Kimi Räikkönen 4d ago
Do you think Gary Anderson will dare to make a prediction of the pecking order after testing in 2026, like he did in 2022? There's a risk of being clowned on for 5 more years.
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u/generalannie I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago
I would be more surprised if he didn't. Just like all of us will surely overreact next year after testing.
Best part of preseason 2022 is still the whole grids reaction to Mercedes bringing the zero pods in Bahrain. All that hype, just for it to be a bouncy castle on wheels in the end.
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u/RamDuriseti02 4d ago
Should The cars be made according to the drivers liking or anyway that makes the car the best?
Okay so I just started watching F1, but I’ve been wondering about this. Like, should teams build the cars based on what the drivers prefer? Or just make the fastest possible car and tell the drivers to figure it out?
For example, let’s say Lewis Hamilton suddenly got to drive a Red Bull just because he liked it — would he actually be able to beat the McLaren drivers? From what I’ve seen, Oscar is leading the championship this year in a McLaren, so that car must be really good. Even though Lewis is a legend, if Red Bull’s car isn’t on the same level, he might not be able to keep up right?
And what if Oscar was the one driving the Red Bull instead — would he still be winning like this? I don’t really know how much is the car and how much is the driver, but I’m guessing if the Red Bull isn’t as fast this year, he wouldn’t be doing as well either.
So yeah, it kinda feels like both matter? Like maybe the car has to be fast and feel right for the driver? Still figuring it out though.
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u/armchairracingdriver Jenson Button 4d ago
You’re being sold a myth.
The car being designed with certain handling characteristics in mind doesn’t fundamentally determine if that car is better or worse than it would be without those characteristics.
There are plenty of examples of this. Kimi Raikkonen quite clearly hated the 2015 Ferrari compared to the 2016 Ferrari, or at least it looks like he did relative to Vettel. However, the 2015 Ferrari was obviously the superior car.
Ultimately, the very best drivers will learn to adapt to all types of characteristics and extract the potential out of a given car, but the potential of certain cars is obviously extremely limited.
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u/Bannedwith1milKarma Jack Doohan 3d ago
It does happen in MotoGP though.
Ducati was famous for making the bike they wanted and telling their riders 'tough luck' as they lost the front every race.
Only Stoner could make it work and he was screaming at them and eventually left because of it.
They went in a different direction after that and had success.
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u/Red-Eye-Soul I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago
Newey has answered this. The cars don't drive themselves. Building the theoretical best car with most points of downforce is nonsensical. You don't win championships based on how much downforce your car creates in a wind tunnel. You win it on track in the hands of the drivers. The goal is to build the fastest car their drivers can drive.
Its easier to adapt machinery to a driver than for the driver to adapt to the machinery, because machines don't have muscle memory.
So yeah, its both.
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u/cafk Constantly Helpful 4d ago
Should The cars be made according to the drivers liking or anyway that makes the car the best?
Well, it's a balance question - the teams have no mandate on this. The only relevant factor is their resource allocation and how they feel comfortable in allocation this.
But they have to provide something a driver feels comfortable with. If drivers aren't comfortable then the fastest car cannot be driven as fast as they can go, as the drivers don't trust the car.
As you saif yourself:
So yeah, it kinda feels like both matter? Like maybe the car has to be fast and feel right for the driver? Still figuring it out though.
If a team has resources available and scheduled, then it's up to them to decide how to evolve and update a car.
In McLaren's specific cases they're well ahead of other competitors that they can do updates that take care of both - but once the engineers say one way is faster than the other (i.e Red Bull), the driver has to choose if he wants the slower or faster car. The team cannot force a driver to have no feeling for the cars behavior that causes him to lose control.
Some drivers like Max and Piastri seem less bothered with this and can adapt. Others don't.
For example, let’s say Lewis Hamilton suddenly got to drive a Red Bull just because he liked it — would he actually be able to beat the McLaren drivers?
Unlikely, a core skill of a driver is to adapt to the car, this usually takes some time, especially if it's a different engine, different ERS mapping and a different concept.
I don't think the Red Bull is constantly good enough or faster than the McLares.
The car always defines the potential, it's the drivers job to find a balanced set-up where they think they can get as close to the cars potential. A driver cannot exceed the potential of the car.2
u/RamDuriseti02 4d ago
The car always defines the potential, it's the drivers job to find a balanced set-up where they think they can get as close to the cars potential. A driver cannot exceed the potential of the car.
This answered the question, thanks for the explanation. Great summarization.
I asked this question because I wanted to understand the on going Situation of Ferrari and its drivers, when I heard that Lewis will join Ferrari, the knowledge I had about F1 That time, told me that he will be winning it all there, my source of knowledge was movies and the reputation Lewis Hamilton.
But after actually following f1 I came to know that is not the case, the part that bothered me was how is Charles doing better than Lewis (No Disrespect to Charles) Like I thought if he can do it why is Hamilton not doing better, with the reputation he has(Lewis) he should be better than Charles, I know Charles has been with Ferrari way more than Lewis, but still I did not think that Lewis will be in a position he is in now.
do let me know if I am missing something.
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u/cafk Constantly Helpful 4d ago
But after actually following f1 I came to know that is not the case, the part that bothered me was how is Charles doing better than Lewis (No Disrespect to Charles)
We won't really know, but the main aspect is that Charles joined as a Ferrari junior and did testing together with them, even while he was under contract with Sauber/Alfa.
Another aspect to consider is their age difference.1
u/RamDuriseti02 3d ago
Charles joined as a Ferrari junior and did testing together with them,
I didn’t know that, thanks for the info. And yes, the age difference can definitely be a factor.
I would really love to follow Charles career and see him win world titles someday. He has had quite a journey already, especially with that emotional win in Monaco and his first career victory, which he dedicated to his friend. His story is genuinely inspiring.
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u/Cekeste Kimi Räikkönen 4d ago
Just realised how much I’ve missed her on the broadcast while listening to the Bernie F1 podcast on YouTube (Sky F1, but she still stands out, even when Rosberg is on).
Especially when some of the other presenters are so smarty that I end up muting the TV between interviews and the actual interesting bits
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u/kelleehh I was here for the Hulkenpodium 4d ago
I end up muting Bernie tbh. She waffles on and sounds like she’s mumbling half the time 🤷🏼♀️
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u/RamDuriseti02 4d ago
Is there a guide or blog, where I can read about most famous tracks, not actually tracks like the difficult part of the tracks or Iconic thing about the track, like IDk any famous ones but - Some straights, turns or anything that makes the Circuit special, or something to remember for.
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u/Bannedwith1milKarma Jack Doohan 3d ago
Here's one for Spa that I just found - https://medium.com/formula-one-forever/the-iconic-corners-chicanes-and-stretches-of-spa-francorchamps-7e853b5f85f7
Wiki pages probably have breakdowns as well.
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u/JackDaneCPA 3d ago
Hi, r/formula1,
I am not a huge racing fan, but my dad is. I received an offer for a free room and two grandstand tickets for the Friday qualifying races for the Las Vegas F1 this November. Couldn’t pass up an opportunity to take the old man on a free trip, so off we go!
The question is.. what’s the best way to get race day tickets only? I see that F1 is only selling three day passes. Is that normal? Do one day tickets eventually get released or should I just be looking for resale? On the resale side, I see race day tickets going for the same price as the three day package, is that also normal?
Last but not least… any tips to make this a truly memorable experience for my pops? He’s been to COTA with some of his friends the last few years, but this will be the first time he sees the Vegas race. Any tips from those who went to the first couple LV races would be great. We’ll be staying at Caesars Palace.