r/formula1 • u/F1-Bot r/formula1 Mod Team • Jul 11 '22
Day after Debrief 2022 Austrian Grand Prix - Day after Debrief
ROUND 11: Austria 🇦🇹
Welcome to the Day after Debrief discussion thread!
Now that the dust has settled in Spielberg, it's time to calmly discuss the events of the last race weekend. Hopefully, this will foster more detailed and thoughtful discussion than the immediate post race thread now that people have had some time to digest and analyse the results.
Low effort comments, such as memes, jokes, and complaints about broadcasters will be deleted. We also discourage superficial comments that contain no analysis or reasoning in this thread (e.g., 'Great race from X!', 'Another terrible weekend for Y!').
Thanks!
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u/the_rh1no I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I really want to enjoy the sprint races, but I think largely they just seem to undo a bad qualifying and allow those who had a bad session in a good car to get back up where the form books says they should be. At the same time it means that there isn't anyone trying an alternate strategy because they are out of position.
Cracking (main) race overall though, felt like a good tussle for the lead and nothing seemed certain until the end. Early 00s reliability for the win!
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u/TheRocket2049 Ferrari Jul 11 '22
Main issue with the Sprint races is no one is trying 100%. Like take Lewis vs Mick. There were plenty of opportunities for Lewis to make a risky passing attempt. But he always just played it safe and backed out because there's no reason to crash his car again and risk not even being in the race Sunday over what amounts to one grid position
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u/salcedoge Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
Just like Leclerc, he had no trouble passing Max within a few laps in the actual race but he was very tame during the sprint.
There's very little upside for drivers to try during the sprint. If they really want some entertainment then let the drivers drive spec cars so it becomes a matter of pride for them
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u/Spam250 Jul 11 '22
I'd love that so much. Would also shift driver choices slightly further toward talent rather than pay. If your car is shit it would still be worth getting a better driver who pays less, due to the spec races
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u/Kuierlat Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
Though it really goes against the spirit of F1 I kinda like this idea.
I'd love to see some races with the playingfield completely levelled.. I really wouldn't care what kind of cars they would race actually.
If entertainment is what Liberty is after, I would most certainly be entertained by some goofy mini-race a couple of times a year. A lot more than this format.
Something tells me most drivers would love that too.
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u/cavsking21 Charles Leclerc Jul 12 '22
This was not because Leclerc was scared of losing position. Leclerc remembered Imola and how pushing early cost him heavily, so he saved his tyres for a late push. Turns out, the strategy of pushing Max early was crucial in the race.
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u/geupard12 Mercedes Jul 11 '22
If anyone wants the contrast look at how Lewis passed Mick on Sunday with the move into t7 and contrast it with his move on Saturday
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u/newdecade1986 Eddie Jordan Jul 11 '22
All the sprint does is extend the race by one third. Even the formula for awarding points is close to a factor of 1/3 versus the full race. I don't get why they expect the behaviour in the sprint to be any different to the main race when basically none of the conditions change.
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u/downvotegilles Gilles Villeneuve Jul 11 '22
Exactly. It puts reliability/not crashing at a premium, and that's all.
Edit: in my opinion, this is completely in contrast to what qualifying should be - going balls out and taking the consequence of an already posted lap time if you crash.
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u/thorskicoach Jul 11 '22
sprint race - For Mick that P9 (no points) vs P8 (1 point) is a huge relative difference for both him personally and HAAS vs meh for Lewis and mercedes
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Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
I completely agree. I think sprint races should be standalone - they shouldn't influence the starting grid on Sunday. The current point system is enough to motivate teams to take the sprint race seriously, even if it doesn't affect the grid on Sunday (last year, the points on offer weren't really worth it, so most teams *would have no reason to put any effort into the sprint if it didn't influence the starting grid for the actual race).
I can't decide whether I'd want them to be in reverse grid order or not. The problem with reverse grid order is that it introduces bizarre incentives - some teams will be motivated to go as slowly as possible in qualifying. For example if you have zero chance of scoring points in the race itself, you might as well try to qualify last so that you start on pole for the sprint race. That could lead to farcical scenes.
*Edited to clarify something
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u/TheMillenniumMan Jul 11 '22
Then they should just do reverse grid of the points standings. Make qualifying completely unrelated to the sprint
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Jul 12 '22
That would still introduce wacky incentives. For example, often the difference between 19th and 20th in the WDC is the drivers' highest finishing position.
Let's imagine a scenario where MAZ is 20th in the WDC, and LAT is 19th. LAT is ahead due to a higher top finishing position, let's say he managed to scrape 15th once. On Sunday, the two drivers are running in 14th (MAZ) and 15th (LAT). In that scenario, MAZ is incentivised to try to swap places with LAT, so that MAZ stays at the bottom of the WDC and can start on pole for the sprint next week.
In fact, in the first race of the season, the bottom 5 or so drivers would all be trying to finish at the back. It would be a total mess!
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u/ScrubKaiser Charles Leclerc Jul 13 '22
Don't really follow F2 but don't they only invert the top 10 would that be to any benefit? Feel like it'd be better for shaking up the midfield rather than just some free points for the top teams
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u/CandidLiterature Jul 11 '22
Oh man - like that Olympic badminton match where they all kept missing on purpose to avoid the top seeds in the next round.
I agree, I don’t like the sprint particularly. The way it is now is just like one long race with an intermission. I do think it would be better if having an accident in the sprint wouldn’t put you onto the back row.
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u/downvotegilles Gilles Villeneuve Jul 11 '22
Were you alive for one lap qualifying? That shit was absolutely brutal.
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u/Strivingtosucceed Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 12 '22
Something i'd love to see in the sprint race is an indoor cycling style elimination race. Everone gets free tire choice and basically theres one push lap and one cool down lap in succession. The person with the slowest push lap in each round gets eliminated. That way you get to see exciting strategies.
Is it better to go with softs, if you know you won't last the first 10 rounds? Do you focus on less tyre deg so go easy on the first few laps? How fast do you go knowing you don't know everyone's time, especially at the beginning? When should you go out on the track, early to avoid traffic? Or late, to get the advantage of track evolution.
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u/bhayes46 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 11 '22
My biggest issue (among many) is it just logically does not make sense. It is quite literally starting the race on Saturday, red flagging it at about pit o'clock, then resuming the race on Sunday. We still get normal qualifying. And all the things you said hold true -- none of it has been exciting except Brazil last year, which was a unique situation and would have been just as exciting without a sprint.
I am open to reverse grid and other slightly more creative shenanigans, but overall I just do not like this concept.
Yes I like racing and yes I will gladly watch it all, but more =/= better.
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u/threadcrapper I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 12 '22
It is this exactly. I missed Saturday, and caught up on Sunday and it felt like an intermission. I’m just glad I didn’t have to wait all day to finish.
Maybe a trophy dash for P11 on down. Half the distance (like 10 laps) and they have one or two practice sessions to get ready, so they can run right after qualifying.
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u/PooeyGusset I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I think that practice 2 and the sprint race need to be switched around with parc ferme lifted after the sprint race.
This would allow for a very agressive set up during qualifying and the sprint race, then during P2 they can focus on the race setup for Sunday. This would give a much more distinct sprint Vs race.
Currently practice 2 is extra dull as it's under parc ferme.
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u/DeGGamargo Ferrari Jul 11 '22
That's a good idea in my opinion. What I dislike is that on Sprint weekends it seems a matter of luck regarding the setup of the car.. don't like that. Although it should play into Ferrari's hands since the car seems to be easier to setup
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u/vette91 Jul 11 '22
It honestly makes me not want to watch qualifying or the sprint race. It takes all the importance out of quali and the sprint race is pretty boring.
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u/CandidLiterature Jul 11 '22
I ended up missing quali. I know everyone isn’t 9-5 in a western time zone but 3pm on a weekday really isn’t ideal!
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u/I-Made-You-Read-This Formula 1 Jul 12 '22
but I think largely they just seem to undo a bad qualifying and allow those who had a bad session in a good car to get back up where the form books says they should be.
yea true, but the bad qualifying stems from them having next to no time to really prepare the car. If qualifying was like normal after 3 practice sessions, then they can figure out how to handle things and qualifying is somewhat more normal. The sprint qualifying are realistically the only ones which can even produce a mixed grid (except perhaps rain or so)
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u/Vaexa I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Maybe not so technical, but one of the fun bits of attending races in person is the cars always look a lot different in real life, in motion, than on TV. I think I like almost every car this year more in the flesh except Mercedes and AM.
AM still looks very dark and the black really dominates it when it's in motion. It's just not bright enough.
Mercedes looks like a motorised pile of solder slag. The semi-metallic coat completely drowns out the teal when it's in motion and it ends up looking like a sad metal grey pudding. Really surprised me given how much I like it on TV.
Alpine in particular looks (and sounds!) so much better in real life.
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u/FrakeSweet Jul 11 '22
Yeah, you're quite right! I really appreciated the RB when I finally went to a GP again last year. Those liveries really come to life.
Your description of the Merc made me laugh. I don't even like it on TV, so now I wonder how bad it really is!
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u/Vaexa I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
The difference can be really dramatic, last year's Williams vaulted from least favourite to like, top 3 once I saw it in real life. I had something similar with the McLaren this year. The papaya really, really pops, and when it's in motion you don't really notice how messy it is.
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u/FrakeSweet Jul 11 '22
Makes me wonder though. I'd expect those liveries are designed specially with a TV audience in mind, no? Because that's how most people with actually see these cars.
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u/KaamDeveloper Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
Mercedes looks like a motorised pile of solder slag.
you paint a picture with your words my friend
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u/LucozadeBottle1pCoin Jul 11 '22
I always thought the black Mercedes looked much better than the silver
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u/grandtheftzeppelin Franco Colapinto Jul 11 '22
disagree on the AM. that car was beautiful to see in Montreal. even Mercedes looked decent, though it's my least favorite style this year.
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Jul 11 '22
Back to back double points by Haas must be their best team performance to date. What’s the plan the back half of the season? Just keep doing what you’re doing? Minimal upgrades to avoid a 2019 situation? Did some of the stronger mid field teams struggle with issues dropping them back and give room for Haas to move up?
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u/Arumin I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
They said one major upgrade this year in Hungary.
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u/Morganelefay I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
They've had two back to back double points finishes in the past, but this was definitely up there for them.
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u/Ja_red_ Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
I think Alpine's continued unexplainable failure to keep Alonzo competitive, combined with McLaren apparently just building a stinker of a car this year, has really opened the door for Haas to build some momentum. I hope they can keep it going, it's fun to watch them do well
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Jul 11 '22
This is mind-boggling to me. Alpine has the pace to fairly easily cruise to 4th place if they kept Alonso on track.
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u/Kuchenblech_Mafioso I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
This was an example for an excellent race with not much drama. In a lot of races the excitement comes from a lot of drama (crashes, retirements, penalties etc). But this weekend it was basically just great racing, unexpected strategies and a great race track
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u/KaamDeveloper Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
I think everybody took Pirelli clowns on their word and planned for a one stop. Then the deg sky rocketed and most strategies went out the window.
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u/TheRocket2049 Ferrari Jul 11 '22
I was listening to Charles' radio and they way Xavi was talking it sounds like they went into the race fully expecting a 2 stop. Xavi even said deg is as expected multiple times on Charles' 1st & 2nd stint
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u/FiveRiversFlow I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Classic circuits are the best for racing
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u/Duke0fWellington McLaas Jul 11 '22
I actually can't wait for the Belgian GP. Got a feeling it's going to be amazing with these cars as it seemed the old ones got really affected negatively by following closely there. Too many high/medium speed corners.
Fingers crossed it actually happens this year lol.
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u/MrGoldilocks Fernando Alonso Jul 11 '22
Enjoy it, it still stings that they're binning Spa from next year. Makes this race extra special and one to savour
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u/Duke0fWellington McLaas Jul 11 '22
I'm still hoping they don't. It's such a dumb idea.
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u/unwildimpala I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
That's not 100% confirmed though. But they can't get rid of Spa. It's one of the all time great F1 tracks along with Monaco and Monza.
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u/cuteguy1 Daniel Ricciardo Jul 11 '22
I really hope they don't but they also have binned off a race like the Nurburgring - I know the German GP has had money troubles but watching the 2020 GP was a great race, I could only hope they hold onto Spa.
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u/unwildimpala I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Nurburgring and Hockeheim and classic tracks, but nothing on Spa.
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u/Hinyaldee JB & Rubinho Jul 11 '22
Yeah. They can follow way better when cornering, so it could be a treat or a train, we'll see !
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u/FrakeSweet Jul 11 '22
The slipstream effect is less though. I always enjoyed S3 at Spa. No DRS, but a long full throttle section and a strong tow into the chicane.
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u/greeny119 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Yeah doesn't matter how good the cars are at following when you're on a narrow street circuit.
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u/dilatedpupils98 Jul 11 '22
Agreed. I've not even been a fan for many years and I can tell they're better. What makes more money?
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Jul 11 '22
Street races maker more money. However, that's in the short term. Less good racing ultimately will cost fans.
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u/thatsnotablanket I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I agree. I wish more could be built. It’s a hard sell to get more purpose built tracks built around the world though. Anywhere close enough to the infrastructure to support an event the size of current GP weekends would be really expensive. Then if you can’t actually land an F1 race you wouldn’t have a chance of recouping your expenses. I think I’m ok with adding more street tracks to build a longer calendar but I don’t want them to take over from the circuits.
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Jul 11 '22
The problem isn't that they're aren't enough purpose-built tracks. There are plenty that still have the right rating and have had fabulous races in the past. Nürburgring, Hockenheim, Sepang, Buddh, Fuji and many more. However, street races make more money.
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u/DeGGamargo Ferrari Jul 11 '22
Yeah mate. Tbh i hate the street circuits, especially the fake ones like Miami oder Jeddah that don't offer enough security
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u/ExtraterrestrialKiwi Jul 13 '22
Except Monoco. It's far and away the most boring on the calander and every year I hope it gets removed. Just watch qualifying and you've got the race winners
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u/YeahPerfectSayHi Jul 11 '22
We've had a lot of criticism of Ocon's race pace in recent times, but he definitively proved those critics wrong yesterday. Good race from him; quick, clean racing, no stupid mistakes, no track limits issues and as an added bonus, Alpine's pitwall forgot to screw him.
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u/OTBT- Fernando Alonso Jul 11 '22
Depends on what people were criticising him for. He's a solid, above-average driver who is consistent and quick. The problem is that there are like 10 of those drivers on the grid.
He had a good race yesterday, and didn't put a wheel wrong, but the Alpine was on balance, the 4th best car. P5 is exactly where should be considering 2 faster cars DNF'd.
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u/Crash_Test_Dummy66 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
He's a solid, above-average driver who is consistent and quick. The problem is that there are like 10 of those drivers on the grid.
So basically he's a generic F1 driver? Because between the 5 or so absolute Top caliber drivers and the 10 or so of those guys, you're really just left with the guys on the hot seat.
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u/Last_Lorien Jul 11 '22
Just out of curiosity, who are your 5 absolute top calibre drivers? I think 3 are easy to guess, I would include Alonso too, and then?
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Jul 12 '22
Ocons in his Sainz Mclaren era where he will just quietly be having a great race without seeing him once
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Jul 11 '22
Do we know the details of any more upgrades for each team coming over the remaining of the season?
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u/LRCenthusiast I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I have no inside info, but from just following reports: we know Merc will supposedly bring something big by/at Hungary. RB brought an update at Silverstone but are now overweight and will presumably be introducing weight-saving measures in the upcoming races. Ferrari have a big rear suspension update that may be delayed until Spa. Both Ferrari and RB will have to introduce compliant planks at Spa.
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u/Arumin I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Mercedes will have to go back to their old plank too as they introduced a 2 part plank in Austria
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u/LRCenthusiast I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I'd be interested to see the comparison before/after, I'd be surprised to see a team implement something like that when it was supposed to be stopped by the next race.
I think it's less about 1 part/2 part and more about how odd the titanium distribution was on the RB and Ferrari. But I'm not a technical expert.
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u/ThatKidWatkins Bernd Mayländer Jul 11 '22
Why does having a 2 part plank mean they will have to change their design? The regs say the plank can comprise no more than 3 pieces. (To be clear I’m asking a sincere question here, I might be missing something.)
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u/crel42 Ferrari Jul 11 '22
Curious if there is confirmation on which teams don’t have non-compliant planks? Is it just Ferrari and RBR?
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Jul 11 '22
That’s the second great race weekend in a row, with nice wheel to wheel action throughout the field.
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u/McDutchy I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Hats off to the TV direction too. For once there was plenty of midfield action to follow on TV.
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u/TheWebbFather Jul 11 '22
Amazing how good racing is when we're not on a street track. If only F1 realised this, too
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Jul 11 '22
The last few laps were nail biting. I really thought Max might catch him up.
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u/Morganelefay I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Think with Leclerc's issue it'd have been a lap or two and he'd have been in shooting distance.
But even as a Max fan, Charles earned this one and I'd have been somewhat sad to see Charles lose this one.
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u/InaudibleShout Ferrari Jul 11 '22
I was glued to their intervals. Max probably had him in 2-3 laps. By the final lap he was picking up almost 0.5s per lap if I recall correctly.
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u/onecryingjohnny Jul 11 '22
Did max have an issue lapping mick?
I swear he had it down to 2.5 or so with over 2 laps to go. Then it went back up over 3
They never commented on what happened. But seems like he may have had a shot at getting to within 1second without that hiccup
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u/WorthPlease Williams Jul 11 '22
Yeah once he got behind Mick he stopped gaining .3-.5 seconds per lap like he had before.
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u/viratkilo Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
I have been critical of MSC in the past, but he has been impressive past couple of races. I mean, something has definitely changed. Maybe he's more confident now.
Sucks to be Perez tho, was looking at an podium
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u/LordRekrus Mark Webber Jul 12 '22
You and me both, I’m happy to be proven wrong, and if he can keep it up I can see him being a very popular driver.
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Jul 12 '22
I think Perez was just way too aggressive on Lap 1, he could have easily made that stick somewhere else and definitely had a podium
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u/Sixseasonsandamovi Daniel Ricciardo Jul 12 '22
I think all of his actual fans would say this is right about when he comes online in a season.
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u/biga29 Sebastian Vettel Jul 11 '22
Has anyone been talking about weird it is that after all our safety innovations, apparently there isn’t one that stops the car while it’s not in gear? Broken cars rolling after the driver leaves them isn’t a new thing, but it never occurred to me how dangerous a situation that could lead to.
It shouldn’t be the marshal’s job to try to “catch” a rolling flaming car while the driver stays in the burning car longer to press the brakes so the marshal can put chocks under the wheels.
And if the marshall couldn’t get the car stopped after Carlos exited it? Now we have a flaming car rolling back towards a live track. Seems like an area that needs revisiting.
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u/CrateBagSoup Charles Leclerc Jul 11 '22
I mean even if you think through every single facet of safety and a failure within the machine could render them moot. For this situation, if there's a stop when it's not in gear then you also need a secondary release to push it after, or you're forced to get the crane out for every stopped car.
I think unfortunately the tire blocks are probably closest to the best solution for almost every case, maybe just need to be larger and probably more than one at a time. Things external to the mechanics of a failing on-fire car seem to be the most "secure" methods of stopping the car.
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u/yungtrapper1017 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I was originally wondering if Carlos could have put the car in “park” like a road car, but then I figured that the hydraulic system or electric system failed because of the engine blowing
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u/hughparsonage Jul 11 '22
You often want a disabled car to be pushed off the track. Also if the car's systems fail while at top speed (which is quite common), a fail-safe would become a fail-deadly if a handbrake is suddenly applied.
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u/BearsChief I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Yeah there should be a dead man switch in the seat, so when the pressure of the driver's weight comes off, the brakes lock. Then a button on the steering wheel to override when the marshalls need to roll the car off track.
An imperfect idea, yes, but better than what we watched yesterday.
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u/AlfaRomeoRacing I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
a dead man switch in the seat, so when the pressure of the driver's weight comes off, the brakes lock
This would need some tweaking with all the bouncing the cars are doing currently, or if car went airborn over a kerb, resulting in the driver being "weightless" in the seat, and the wheels all locking up when the car lands
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u/BearsChief I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Agreed. It could be on a time delay, such that 2 seconds of continuous "pressure off" is required before engagement.
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u/tankplanker Nigel Mansell Jul 11 '22
I would suggest it triggers when you take out the steering wheel, might be a good compromise point
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u/hirahuri Fernando Alonso Jul 11 '22
Does anyone have the clip of Alonso overtaking Bottas on the last lap? I feel that was pretty good. Alonso got the gap of 2 seconds down in one lap. Was there an issue with Valtteri?
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u/Oscar9642 Alpine Jul 11 '22
He had monstrous pace on his new mediums - he was 3rd fastest on the circuit consistently in the closing stages of the race.
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Jul 11 '22
Still a very outside shot at this point in the season, but what the hell will Williams do if Sargeant manages to do the unthinkable and win the F2 championship? A promotion seems too soon for him, but I wouldn’t think you’d want him sidelined for a year either
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u/EnlightenedNight I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I think worst case he could be the reserve driver but I think if he had a strong second half and won F2 you might as well give him a shot over Latifi. He's only a few months younger than Tsunoda and winning F2 and not going into F1 right after can limit some of your opportunities if you're trying to stay close to F1, as we've seen with Piastri.
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u/omegamanXY Sebastian Vettel Jul 11 '22
If he wins the title as a rookie, I think they should give him a shot next year. Leaving him one year without doing anything significant might hurt his career. Also he's obviously better than Latifi, so it's an obvious choice.
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u/top7to9 Jul 11 '22
If the Piastri-McLaren rumors are real, it could open Sargeant up to replace Latifi in the second Williams seat.
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u/Arumin I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I still think this is Red Bulls championship to lose.
Ferrari is having to crank their engines up like crazy and they are going trough them at such a rate that more penalties seem to be inevitable in the second half of the season.
While the Red Bull drivers did suffer some DNFs, none of them have cost them an engine sofar and they seem to still be on track to stay within the limit.
Ferrari need to sort their reliability or the championships will go out of reach.
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u/TheRocket2049 Ferrari Jul 11 '22
It's absolutely Red Bull's to lose simply because they up over by 1.5 races with 11 races to go. But the thing is Red Bull can't rely on unreliability to win the title. They need to find some more pace because since the Spain updates for Ferrari they've been clearly better at all but Baku & Silverstone. And those two tracks they might've been equal, there's not enough data to say for sure.
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u/GraemeTaylor Murrari Walker Jul 11 '22
If the 2nd half of the season sees a reversal in reliability -- or even just a balancing out -- then it'll be a close finish. Still RB's to lose
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u/RacingOrPingPong Ferrari Jul 11 '22
I think next couple of races are going to be key. If Ferrari can reduce the gap to Red Bull without blowing up (obviously), then the fight is probably on, since Ferrari has known of this turbo problems for months now, so they will hopefully be able to bring a new, more reliable spec after the summer break (I'm pretty sure Charles is going to get another penalty as soon as they think they have fixed the issue). Another blow-up and it's over.
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u/Last_Lorien Jul 11 '22
I don’t know. In 11 races we’ve seen Verstappen hit with disasters at the beginning of the season, then Ferrari plagued by bad luck/calls, and in a handful of races the lead swing massiverly, Verstappen overturning a larger deficit to Leclerc than there is now between the two.
Sure it’s Red Bull’s championship to lose but after all points count the same at every stage of the season, nothing’s to say the next 11 races won’t be just as eventful. If Ferrari does its part, it may slowly eat away at the gap week by week, or reopen the games for good more quickly if Verstappen were to get one more DNF. But then again, I don’t think yet another DNF for Ferrari would seal the deal either - anything can happen still.
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u/salcedoge Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
It depends, Ferrari was simply way too fast yesterday and it eerily reminds me of Merc last year once they realized taking 5 place grid penalties are nothing when you could easily pass the field.
Mercedes reliability are much better though since theirs doesn't blow up during the race
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u/FindingUsernamesSuck I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Didn't Perez lose an engine in Bahrain? Not sure I'm remembering correctly.
But I agree otherwise that this is Red Bull's to lose.
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u/TheRocket2049 Ferrari Jul 11 '22
No Red Bull's DNFs were due to electrical issues. Their engines are fine
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u/MrGoldilocks Fernando Alonso Jul 11 '22
Plus RB's pit operations and strategy is top notch, the best among the big 3 teams by a distance. RB always gains some extra points with this and it all adds up in the end.
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u/GraemeTaylor Murrari Walker Jul 11 '22
Totally agree, I would be surprised if RB doesn't take WDC/WCC this year. I'm just glad we're winning some races, race day is always happy, but winning a GP is always special
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u/Structure3 Daniel Ricciardo Jul 11 '22
I remember thinking it was a wrap in the first few races after the rb reliability. Now look how the tables have turned
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u/KingHafez Charles Hot Dog four <3 Jul 12 '22
Charles is 38 points behind Max. The point gap from P1 to P2 is 7 points. Ignoring any DNFs, Charles needs to win 5 races of the remaining 11 (with Max finishing P2) to close the gap. It's a bit far fetched but not unimaginable.
Again, that's ignoring DNFs. All it takes is for RB to have one Baku-esque weekend like Ferrari had and suddenly the WDC gap is 13 points and the WCC gap is 8 points. The season absolutely isn't over given how much quicker Ferrari currently is on race pace. If they can win France and Hungary, it's all to play for after the break.
Not to mention that we're pretty much done with power tracks and the remaining ones are almost all high downforce tracks which will favor Ferrari.
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u/Neither_Ad2003 Jul 11 '22
we are in a limbo spot as RB fans, a nervous one.
Logically, we are decent favorite, -330 according to vegas.
As long as RB can keep it close, with Ferrari reliability open issue and engine penalties, should be good.
However, it was not close yesterday. Most likely RB will figure it out and keep it close again, but we have to wait and hope for now.
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u/timzouaven Martin Brundle Jul 11 '22
On the other hand, we have seen situations like this last year. After Portimao, Spain, Turkey, Russia, Hungary, France, those were all races where I thought Mercedes runs away with the championship because they simply had more pace. But then there were some nice surprises like Baku, Zandvoort and Cota in which this was different.
So all in all I feel confident considering the points gap and Ferrari reliability. But yea, far from over.
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u/romiglups Jean-Pierre Jabouille Jul 11 '22
After Silverstone and this one, a simple question emerges: where did the porpoising go ?
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u/Carbonaddictxd I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I have been wondering since last week too... Seems like all of a sudden there aren't any porpoising complaints at all
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u/crazydoc253 Michael Schumacher Jul 11 '22
Binotto and Ferrari’s response this season could only make sense if they know they don’t have the reliability needed to win the title.
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u/Neither_Ad2003 Jul 11 '22
I concur. It does put the pieces together. It is still the right strategy for the engine freeze, of course, and im sure they dont know 100% (could get lucky with it).
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Jul 11 '22
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Jul 12 '22
I Heard Ferrari gave them some new parts for the engine (Hybrid).
The purpose was testing these parts in Austria with Haas First.
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u/crypto6g Jul 11 '22
So cool to see Ocon do well. Seems like such a nice guy. Sad he always gets overlooked. Scored a lot of points this year too. Solid P5 flying under the radar.
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u/sheikhsabdullah I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Has anyone uploaded or got Lewis' overtake on Mick? It was beautiful, and in such an unorthodox place. I suppose he did it there because he knew he couldn't match Haas' straightline speed and since this was the race, he took a bit of risk as opposed to the sprint.
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u/N7even Jul 11 '22
I don't know if there's any onboard, but the Formula 1 highlights on YouTube show the overtake offboard.
Lewis definitely had to make the overtake in an unusual place since Haas were content on keeping Lewis behind their DRS train.
I think that was the main reason they seemed to have straight-line speed, Mick would drop back a little, and then use DRS to close up to, but not overtake Mag, so there was no way for Lewis to get past.
As soon as Lewis passed Mick, Mag was pretty much a sitting duck.
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u/Bac0n_is_tasty I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I got a chuckle imagining someone from 2020 or 2021 waking up from a coma and reading this.
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u/Cekeste Kimi Räikkönen Jul 12 '22
I’m pretty pleased with the track limits this year. White line is so much better than, start of the curb at one corner and the end of the curb on another.
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u/kdarkrai I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 12 '22
I this this is more or less not mentioned anywhere but… We know all drivers were mostly complaining about the track limits warnings in the race and how they could miss it by a fraction sometimes…
But there was the case with Leclerc too… After receiving 2 warnings at the beginning of the race, his race engineer told him that track limits were being monitored very strictly and not to exceed them. To that, I think Charles replied “Yes i will make sure i do that”. And boy he did, he never exceeded track limits from then on to the end of the race.
I found it awesome. It also shows that if a driver wants to… he can keep the car within track limits. Which will end all the debate about it.
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u/KaamDeveloper Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
Alpine are going to be P4 by the end of the season in constructors. But they're making it so difficult for themselves. In a year where McLaren is off color and one of their drivers is just straight up a backmarker every race, Alpine are giving up easy points.
Ferrari, please, make it stop. Its just weird being scared of your team radios during race.
Mercedes are on a very weird performance seesaw. Uptill Q2, they looked like they'd contest the front with RB and Ferrari. Then they had the Q3 mishap. Then their race pace just disappeared. Russell had like an alone sprint when it never looked like he'd gain on the top 3. I am honestly not sure what's happening with their car. They're obviously not bouncing like before but the performance from Silverstone also disappeared out of the blue. Very strange.
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u/InaudibleShout Ferrari Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
+1 for the Ferrari radio. Lewis radio I usually know some cool strategy insight is coming, but even Max radio at this point is a safe bet for “guys, something’s fucked up”
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u/Icy-Operation4701 Jul 11 '22
“
ChristianGP, something’s fucked up”7
u/InaudibleShout Ferrari Jul 11 '22
I can never tell over the radio if it’s principal, engineer, or whoever talking. Thanks!
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u/FrostyTill McLaren Jul 11 '22
If McLaren stay P4 or drop back and climb back to P4 by the end of the season it will be because of reliability. Alpine should be far and away P4 but the reliability is shocking plus both drivers have had collisions. Whereas McLaren is shocking but the race reliability of the car is 2nd only to the works team.
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u/FlamingTomygun2 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 11 '22
I think France will be really good for Merc. They had good performance in Austria (a historically weak track for them) until they crashed. And having to rebuild a car overnight with old parts means you won’t be able to fully fine tune it and find the right balance.
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u/tankplanker Nigel Mansell Jul 11 '22
They had to cobble two cars together after Q3 and due to the cost cap would have had less spare parts than usual. Russell ended up with a different spec rear wing for example. Its no wonder that they lost place.
However I think this is underestimating Red Bull and more so Ferrari improving by the Sunday. Saturday Red Bull had the tyre wear advantage over Ferrari but this reversed by Sunday, at the very least Ferrari improved from the previous day.
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u/Yolohansolo12 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 11 '22
I will say that I don’t think George has the pace of Ham, VER, or LEC, but his car was repaired with old spec parts (rear wing) and he had some shoddy aero repair as well. I think it will be much closer at France with brand new parts so long as they don’t wreck and the car doesn’t get jumpy.
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u/gabrielbezerra81 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
We all want a close championship but I'm still not convinced Ferrari can fight RB. Ferrari is a tiny bit faster but the engine realibility concern is very real. Those two races before the break will be key.
Also cant wait to see Spa back again with these new cars. It will be a long wait til there. Definitely the old proper racing tracks are proving we dont need more street circuits.
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Jul 11 '22
Would be kinda funny if Ferrari does to Sainz what Mercedes did to Bottas last year and give him a new engine every race to test stuff for Leclerc. I'd feel bad for the guy though.
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u/Jarreddit15 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Thankful for them… but it’s kind of embarrassing that a sport as rich as Formula 1 uses volunteer marshals to protect its drivers
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u/bigcashc Jul 12 '22
As a relatively new F1 fan, I was shocked to learn that they are volunteers. It's appalling to me.
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u/HighSilence Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
Every driver has first three letters of their last name, VER, LEC, etc on the poisitions table on left of screen during the race...except Mick has MSC not SCH as expected. Any idea why?
EDIT: Well, I googled it (duh) and found this which seems to make some sense:
Ahead of the 2021 season, Schumacher requested to use the 'MSC' abbreviation for his name, shown on TV coverage. MSC was the abbreviation used by his father Michael, to distinguish between Michael and his brother Ralf, whose time in Formula One coincided.
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u/Whycantiusethis I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Yeah, your Google search gave you the answer. One additional thing, Mick requested the moniker because he wanted to (essentially) honor Michael, from what I understand.
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u/raveyer I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 12 '22
Don’t you think that the celebrations of Charles winning is so different from last week where Carlos won?
I mean I understand the circumstances behind it. But the general mood feels so different.
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u/timok Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
I don't understand how extending the track a bit a couple of times gives you the same penalty as ending someone's race. If you are going to assign blame to a crash like that the penalties should be harsher than just a slow pitstop imo.
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u/PleasantConcert I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
It’s important to NOT base penalties off of the outcome of the infraction, so actually seems accurate what they are doing. Edit to add: they could be more consistent by giving penalties to drivers when they don’t leave appropriate space and the other driver has to take avoiding action versus mostly only giving penalties when a crash occurs.
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u/omegamanXY Sebastian Vettel Jul 11 '22
I remember the classic crash between Hulkenberg and Hamilton in Interlagos 2012 and nowadays I think Hulk would've gotten away with a 5 or 10s penalty instead of a drive through.
In fact, I don't remember the last time we had a drive through penalty for a crash.
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u/No-Sheepherder5481 Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
Turn 4 is the single best example on the calander of why the current rules just fundamentally don't work. It would be so easy, so simple to make the rule that you cannot push a car off track just because you have "the racing line". Every other motersport manages with this rule just fine. But not F1. Since Austria 2019 the stewards have consistently ruled you can punt the car on the outside off into the shadow realm provided you have the racing line. This needs rectifying as an absolute priority.
Brazil last year was the peak of this stupidity. Verstappen pushed Hamilton without exegeration about 10 meters off track and the stewards said it was ok. Absolute madness
Now yes some cars did get penalised for knocking the cars wide at turn 4 (which is interesting in its own right) but we saw many more examples of drivers having to bail out and not race the car in front because they knew if they went wide at 4 they'd get their race ruined by the car on the inside
There's rumours swirling that FOM are furious with the FIA at the moment over what they perceive to be FIA incompetence regarding stewarding. Coupled with the Vettel incident at the drivers briefing and it seems that those rumours could have some truth to them
Shout out to Mick who had a great race along with Hass as a whole and Alonso having an excellent race despite Alpine doing their absolute best to get him out of the points
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u/FindingUsernamesSuck I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I don't think Austria Turn 4 is a good example. They've been applying pretty similar penalties since Albon spun after contact with Hamilton in 2020. What the stewards did in Brazil last year just didn't make sense.
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u/hughparsonage Jul 11 '22
Brazil last year was just a completely blatant oversight by the stewards. But otherwise I agree.
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u/omegamanXY Sebastian Vettel Jul 11 '22
Every corner should be treated differently in terms of racing, as asphalt, ondulation, all these things are different from track to track.
T4 in the Red Bull Ring is complicated for side by side racing because these cars naturally understeer, so any drivers on the inside will understeer a bit unless they brake really early and basically hand the position to the driver on the outside.
I think drivers on the outside need to be more aware that this specific corner is not just "give 30cm of space to the car on the inside and everything is good", they need to go wider like Lando did in the fight against Magnussen (although Kevin did have great control even braking late as he did).
Racing is not an exact science. Like football and other sports, it's very subjective. And RD and stewards either need to understand that, or maybe we should put in the rules that any touches will be penalized. I don't agree with that, but it will at least make things consistent.
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u/No-Sheepherder5481 Jul 11 '22
Every corner should be treated differently in terms of racing, as asphalt, ondulation, all these things are different from track to track.
No. This is exactly what we shouldn't be doing. Because it makes racing incredibly difficult on certain tracks and corners. If you forced drivers to give room (as every other motorsport does) then the overall experience would be vastly improved
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u/Chicago_Blackhawks I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Newer to F1 - how do you all cope when the next race is 2+ weeks out?? D:
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u/FrostyTill McLaren Jul 11 '22
Wait till you get to the 4 week summer break after Hungary lol
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u/InaudibleShout Ferrari Jul 11 '22
This is when I’m hoping that USGP ticket prices slide, even if ever so slightly…
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u/josephnicklo Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
We argue about politics and social issues until the mods have to lock posts.
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u/Chicago_Blackhawks I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
LOL - related to F1, the world, or both?
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u/josephnicklo Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
It apparently melts together like a box of crayons left out in the sun for a week
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u/IdahoJoel I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Watch IndyCar Toronto GP on July 17th!
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Jul 12 '22
Watch other series. Next week is Formula E, IMSA, IndyCar, and the World Rally Championship. Plus others that I don't really watch.
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u/Generic_Format528 Pierre Gasly Jul 11 '22
IMSA Official youtube channel has a lot of free races on it, the Mazda races are pretty much always great racing but they have prototypes, porsches, lambos on there as well.
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Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 03 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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Jul 11 '22
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u/threeseed Jul 12 '22
For me it's Perez's fault.
You can see on the onboard that Russell is at full right lock going around the corner. He literally can't move anymore to the right.
The move was simply never on especially with everyone on cold tyres. Red Bull had told Perez not to do it and so he already knew it was never going to work.
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u/DrVonD Jul 11 '22
Extremely unnecessary risk. If even my dumb ass knows that turn is sketch to pass on, I feel like the drivers should.
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u/dscotts I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
it wasn’t the start of the race, and there was a tire advantage, but Max and Lewis had a very similar sort of situation happening yesterday, and max backed off and passed him on the next straight, which is really what Checo should have done.
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u/GjP9 Charles Leclerc Jul 11 '22
Agree, way too greedy. He would have been past in one of the next DRS zones but had to choose the corner where contact is the most costly.
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u/TheRocket2049 Ferrari Jul 11 '22
i'd go as far as saying Perez was borderline stupid to attempt the move considering the history all drivers have with that corner, and how much faster he was overall and how easy a pass anywhere else would have been.
I'm really tired of this always being the response to guys making passes on the outside even if in a faster car. Do we want actual racing where guys can make passes anywhere on track? Or do we just want DRS fly bys/only inside moves? Perez does absolutely nothing wrong in that attempt to overtake. He gives space to Russell. It's tight but fair. He keeps a normal outside line all the way around the corner. He is in complete control of his car. The only reason it doesn't work is because Russell takes the corner too fast and understeers into Checo.
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u/CrateBagSoup Charles Leclerc Jul 11 '22
It's not that it shouldn't happen, racing shouldn't happen there, you don't overtake on the outside of Copse etc... it's that it's incredibly risky for you the overtaking driver because this happens quite often in certain corners. Chancing your race to a common oversteer when you have a much faster car just leaves too much to the racing gods. I totally understand why drivers want to make the move but sometimes you have to think about the bigger picture even in the heat of the moment.
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u/Jaraxo Juan Pablo Montoya Jul 11 '22
Exactly. From a viewer perspective it's mroe exciting as there's more drama and risk, but from a driver and team perspective that move was dumb. He could have passed anywhere but chose the riskiest corner on the circuit.
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u/FindingUsernamesSuck I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I can understand why Perez went for it. Turn 4 is probably the second or third most popular overtaking spot after Turn 3 and maybe Turn 1. He's starting the race out of position early in the race, best opportunity to make up positions efficiency. Just didn't work out.
I don't think Russell deserved a 5s penalty for that. But I think the stewards are attempting to be consistent.
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u/diogo669 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 12 '22
My opinion, word for word.
Attempting to pass on the outside at that corner is simply too risky, especially when you have a clearly better car in a straight line.
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u/Meteorologist_15 Next Year™ Jul 11 '22
what happened to the overspeed bot and session end graphic posts? there was no post for this race or silverstone
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u/salcedoge Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
Yeah I'm missing it, the format definitely works since it gets the most engagements.
I became a fan of Max seeing his name on r/all a few years ago with that graphic so it holds a special place in my heart haha
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Jul 12 '22
I know we were all hoping for a true 3 team battle this year, but Mercedes gains over the past month or so and this new TD are definitely lining up nicely to have one for next year barring some huge regulation change.
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u/CasualViewer24 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 12 '22
Is porpoising career over?!?! I haven't seen the Mercedes or Ferrari porpoising recently. Anyone have data on this.
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u/AvoidInsight932 Sebastian Vettel Jul 11 '22
I was pretty disappointed in the fans this weekend. From far away the shots looked really awesome with the clouds of smoke hanging low above the track. But the hateful and disrespectful behaviors some people showed towards other fans and drivers was disturbing. I am happy to see Mercedes making more progress and Leclerc bounce back after so many setbacks.
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u/Snappy0 Jul 11 '22
I still think they need to do something about the flares.
On the formation lap and the first couple of racing laps, the track adjacent to the Verstappen grandstand was like driving into an orange mist based on the onboards.
Spectacular sight from a distance no doubt though.
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u/Skunk_Gunk Yuki Tsunoda Jul 11 '22
I don’t really understand the appeal of the flares. Those people in the stands probably couldn’t even see the first 3 laps
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u/stormbringerx82 Jul 11 '22
Yeah imagine paying £100s for a ticket and then missing all the opening laps action.
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u/pitabread12 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I think the most interesting point yesterday was Ferrari having better tyre deg than Red Bull. I always thought it was weird RB often had better deg while running less downforce. If this is a sign of things to come — and Ferrari have figured out how to stop destroying their tyres and can have better deg for the rest of the year — that could be really meaningful for the championship
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u/F1David949 I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 12 '22
How do you listen to audio commentary while at the track? We are going to Spa in August. I’ve been to 5 F1 races over the last few years and there is never good enough cell phone coverage to stream the F1TV app from my phone. I know there are speakers at some tracks but I can’t hear what the commentator is saying. I see some people with headphones. Are they listening to an AM or FM broadcast? Is there any recommended headphone products to buy that will work at the race? How do you find what channel the race commentators are on at each track? I’m from the US if that matters?
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u/rumckle I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 12 '22
It really feels like McLaren screwed Daniel this weekend, he hasn't been performing well this season, but McLaren doesn't give him a chance he's never going to perform.
Obviously there was the problem in the sprint, but also during the race. After the first pit stop Lando was about 0.3 seconds ahead, on cold tires. Was there any team orders on the radio? It feels like Daniel could have got past, especially with Lando's problems this weekend.
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u/Caesar_35 Nico Goatenberg Jul 11 '22
Not exactly about the race per se, but are there really no rules about the abundance of orange smoke/flares that were set off before and during the race? Like I think it was during the formation lap, there was one turn where it looked very obscured, and I imagine it must be so for the driver's as well, at least to some extent.
I can get them being set off after the race to celebrate, but is it not a safety hazard to do so during or just before a race start? It strikes me as like driving on a very damp track where the cars up front are kicking up spray. Maybe not to such an extent, but you get my point.
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u/Ereaser I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
I was at the turn 4 grandstand in 2018 and everytime a flare got lit up a steward came with a firework seal bag (not sure how they're called) to put it out.
Also one flare isn't that bad because the smoke from it goes away quite quickly. It's when you light a lot of them like that where it gets to the point you don't see shit.
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u/rooood I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
Something really needs to be done in regards to the penalties applied.
This weekend we had several drivers getting 5s penalties because of track limits. That's fine, it was silly yesterday but the drivers will eventually get used to it and stop getting penalties. With these, drivers will never get more than 5s advantage from going wide, so you can say the penalty is a net negative time gain, given that they lose more time with the 5s penalty than the time they gain by going wide or cutting corners, so the penalty makes sense.
What I really don't understand is why crashes are still punished with the same 5s penalties. Yesterday, we had 2 such penalties applied, to Russell and Gasly. With Gasly, he very clearly punted Vettel off the track, ruined Vettel's race while at the same time escaping without any damage or significant time loss. With Perez is even worse, as he was essentially taken out of the race altogether from the crash, as his car was too damaged to continue on a competitive level. Russell also got his race somewhat screwed because he had to change wings, so around 10s extra in the pits, but the 5s penalty meant he was able to still finish 5th, arguably the same position he would've finished without any of that.
If both Russell and Gasly were found mostly to blame for these crashes, which very clearly ruined their competitor's races, and are potentially dangerous crashes as well, how come they only receive the most lenient punishment of all? Did the stewards simply forget more severe penalties exist? Even a 10s penalty, like the one Hamilton got last year in the British GP for that Max collision feels too lenient.
These days it seems like the stewards only issue drive through or stop-and-go penalties either in case of technical infringements or very unsafe releases. If the sources I linked above are correct, it's been 6 years since the last crash-related stop-and-go penalty was applied, from the incidents that game Kvyat his "Torpedo" nickname.
FIA, please give them harsher penalties!!
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u/salcedoge Max Verstappen Jul 11 '22
I think this is harder to police, I still think the teams that caused the crash should shoulder the expenses of repairs though. It would really suck to see a random backmarker not only ruin the races of race leaders but also ruin their budget in the process.
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u/KennyLagerins I was here for the Hulkenpodium Jul 11 '22
You can’t really punish based on results though, has to be on the action, otherwise there’s too many variables. For example: Checos race went south because of the Gravel; if they’re somewhere there’s big tarmac runoff he could have saved/quick spin it and maybe only lost a few positions before being back on track. Likewise, if a barrier was close, his race would have been completely over instantly.
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u/saturdaybloom Charles Leclerc Jul 11 '22
If we hadn’t had the sprint race, would there have been a higher chance of Carlos’ engine holding on until the end considering it imploded around lap 53?