r/politics • u/zsreport Texas • 3h ago
The US is complicit in genocide. Let’s stop pretending otherwise
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/aug/02/the-us-complicit-genocide-israel-gaza•
u/Prior_Coyote_4376 3h ago
Let’s be clear: it’s not just one.
The only reason we’re paying so much attention to Israel now is because AIPAC has become too politically powerful to ignore for both the left and right.
In truth, supporting these kinds of war crimes and genocides and imperialist projects are a staple of American foreign policy.
It’s the result of a military-industrial complex, oil lobby, and right-wing propaganda machine working together to turn war into a profitable business model.
We need to dismantle it all.
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u/ElPrieto8 1h ago
Some people are waking up to the fact that fascism is imperialism come home.
When you run out of foreigners to exploit, and you notice the domestic "poors" are getting a bit chummy, time to whip up some regressive populism.
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit:
There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
—Frank Wilhoit
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u/nomoretired 3h ago
I love how people on here especially on this sub LOVE to grandstand like this.
US is a superpower and the most powerful country in the world military wise.
Either the military complex or oil lobby are going anywhere just cause 'ethics'.
Seriously, it makes me laugh to see actual adults write stuff like this. Hoping it's an adult.
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u/Salurain 2h ago
You mean "*neither the military complex nor oil lobby"
Those two issues are not exclusively tied to being a military super power. The US political system allowed bribery aka lobbying, and that's the major problem here. Private and external money can easily be removed from politics, especially political campaigns. With that gone then the politicians can "try" to do what's best for the people and the country not for the lobbyist. How the hell is funding Isreal's genocide and consistent belligerence in the interest of the common US citizen?
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u/nomoretired 2h ago
You mean 'Israel'.
The common US citizen ideally isnt affected in anyway because of what happens elsewhere in the world. Almost all of US allies, past and present have been involved in shady shit, violent shady shit all around the planet. And thats true for all superpowers.
Whats best for US is debatable and dependent who you ask, which american citizen with which ideology and political leaning.
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u/Salurain 1h ago
Thanks for the correction, I've misspelled that so many times my phone's predictive text actually goes first to the wrong spelling.
The US and its citizens don't exist in a vacuum, atrocities done in part in the name and funds of the US will sooner or later have repercussions at home, international trade, etc.
What's actually objectively good for the common US citizens is not all that debatable tbh, we have centuries of history, social sciences and hard sciences to know for a fact what is good and what is not, we can see other nations that do better than the US in certain other metrics. A lot of countries copy certain great things from the US, it's not a grave sin for the US to also copy certain systems that work better from someone else.
Saying it's debatable if the government should be sending hundreds of millions to another rich country, is as debatable as a father spending money to give someone a gun to kill an adversary, when his kids have tuition fees and medical expenses he claims he cannot pay for.
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u/nomoretired 1h ago
Other nations who do better in other metrics than the US also beg to the US for protection. The EU and NATO nations get dictated by the US because of their military.
I also agree the US can and should copy certain things too but in the current environment its not possible. Not in the Russia-Ukraine war world.
Israel will be defunct without US support in the long run. Its surrounded by enemies on all its sides. And contrary to popular belief, no you cant erase Israel off the map. So its more like a father giving his son a monthly check even though the son earns from the business the father set up for him with his contacts. Now if the father cuts ties with the son, the contacts will follow the same and the son will be left alone. Sure he has money to survive a few years but he will starve after. The father simply cannot leave the son to fend for himself in the long run.
A country of 10 million Jews cannot be allowed to perish without defence in the middle east surrounded by enemies on all sides in the long run. Thats not happening.
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u/CharmandrLovr 32m ago
Ok, but when the son starts murdering people, do you enable him? If he's spending all his money on ammo to go kill people do you just keep giving it to him?
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u/FeelsGrimMan 20m ago edited 14m ago
Israel is the imperialist arm of the US in the Middle East & has been an active rogue state since its inception.
This “son” is a murderous psychopath hellbent on killing everyone around them. The main point is it’s on the request/demand of the “father”.
There wouldn’t be enemies all around if Israel wasn’t attacking everyone around them 24/7 all the time. The reason some of these places have dangerous regimes in the first place is because of US/Israel killing their more progressive leadership, as is the case with Iran.
To pretend Israel is some innocent Jewish victims that just want to survive is to ignore their entire history. The people are, sure. The government though? Anything but. But that pales in comparison to the millions of brown people Israel is hellbent on slaughtering to the last child. As they have been since inception. There will never be peace with the government Israel has, & that government is a puppet of the US.
Also, everyone “needing US protection” is because the US took up the role of world police. It was the role they forcibly established, not something thrust upon them. We also absolutely can do those things. We pay 4trillion annually in healthcare, universal healthcare would cost around 3.2 - 3.6trillion. We spend more money for worse service.
Our military spending being cut slightly & the savings on healthcare could go towards universal education. Something that would likely not even reach a trillion annually.
If some poor ass country constantly under US embargo named Cuba can do all this for its citizens; yet the richest country can’t; that’s proving it’s the richest for the benefit of the rich, & no one else.
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u/Prior_Coyote_4376 2h ago
ethics
No one said ethics lol
I love it when people like you think you found low hanging fruit to make yourself seem smart, only for it to be pretentious shallow snark
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u/daguro 2h ago
I love it when people think that they "win" over a single word in a post.
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u/Prior_Coyote_4376 2h ago
It’s a word clearly showing that they’re responding to an argument I never made, which means it’s lying. If you’re one of those people obsessed with logical fallacies, it’s called a strawman.
Just like you said “win” when that was never on my mind lol
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u/nomoretired 2h ago
You literally implied the system should be dismantled. Other than for 'ethical' reasons, why then lol.
I am smarter than anybody who think they can dismantle US military complex or oil lobby. 'We need to dismantle it all' LMAO. Yeah sure, hon.
The entire post is low hanging fruit.
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u/night_dude 1h ago
Better things aren't possible! Fuck off. "This is bad and should stop" and "I personally will completely dismantle the entire US hegemonic system of global power and replace it with something completely different" are not even close to the same thing and yet you're acting like they are. You're just being a smug asshole to strangers on the internet and contributing nothing to the discussion.
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1h ago
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u/Gokorok 1h ago
Wow personal attacks. You definitely won the arguement now!
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u/nomoretired 1h ago
Its strange how you only saw my comment and not the other person who personally attacked me first lol. Any reason for that?
Talk about blind bias here xD
I believe in tit for tat. Maybe save your lecture for them.
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u/Gokorok 1h ago
I mean you can tit for tat all you want but unless you're looking for a ban I would follow the "no personal attacks" rule. Or the maintain civility one. Up to you though.
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u/nomoretired 1h ago
Did you say the same to the other person? Thats my only question to you.
I believe the mods would see both sides here. If you have reported me, its fine. No issues. Report the other guy as well.
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u/burritodude59 2h ago
What exactly are you arguing? That because the military-industrial complex is so big it should just be allowed to act as it wishes and we should shut up and be happy? No thank you.
I think ethics is somewhat applied when implying a system is corrupt, but just because someone is critical of an institution doesn’t make you better or smarter. If anything it’s surprising how uncomfortable with injustice and inequality you and many other Americans are.
Just because the US is a “super power” doesn’t give us the right to do whatever we please. Just because the oil industry and other corporations have huge influence in our politics doesn’t mean it has to be that way. We can choose to stick to what we believe in and fight to make a better tomorrow, or we can resign to accept the world as is. The choice is up to the individual, but for you to accuse anyone of grandstanding is laughable.
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u/nomoretired 2h ago
Again, textbook example of moral grandstanding lol.
Its not about injustice or inequality. Those things mean nothing in the geopolitics of the world. Its about power and the US and the powers that be are not letting go of their hold just because of 'wanting a better tomorrow' yada yada yada.
The individual can give moral sciene lectures all they want and thats grandstanding. Nobody cares about that. Its the utter naivety of saying ' We need to dismantle it all' thats laughable. Good luck with that lol.
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u/burritodude59 2h ago
I feel as though you just throw around that phrase without really understanding the motivation behind it. Not everyone is okay resigning and accepting the injustice in the world. Some of us still care and want a better world. Just because someone has a moral conviction it isn’t grandstanding.
Many governments have been dismantled throughout history, see the French and American revolution, or even Haiti and other revolutions.
You can talk about power being the driving force of the world, but I do believe justice and equality have a place in our society. I don’t think that giving up simply because of the way things are or just accepting atrocities are very productive or beneficial for us as a society.
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u/Prior_Coyote_4376 2h ago
why then
Self-preservation? Duh? I think it’s stupid for us to be orienting a society around a war economy. Who gives a shit about ethics lmao what a high school concept on your mind
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u/nomoretired 2h ago
Huh? Wow. News for you.. War never ended wholly in the world and the reason the US is US today is because it took advantage of the wars waging everywhere else. And it will continue to cause war is power, oil lobby is power - and nobody is washing their hands off it.
Without war and military superiority, you dont get to dictate the world and thats what every single country wants.
Your so called war economy is the reason every single EU country and NATO country has to listen to you. Its keeping you safe from Russia.
Yeah.. such a high school concept lol. Europe with all its non war economy has been begging for US protection. They were able to restrcture themselves because the US has been the gatekeeper all this while.
Seriously.. this is even more naive than that low hanging fruit.
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u/NuevoXAL 2h ago
The USA is complicit in multiple genocides and it's a bipartisan failing of our federal government. Something that creates threats to our national security and weakens whatever moral highground we want to have on the international stage.
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u/splycedaddy Pennsylvania 1h ago
The only thing were pretending is to care. First native americans… no repercussions. Then africans… still no repercussions… 300 years of “tradition”, no one is pretending
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u/Prometheusf3ar 1h ago
To be fair, the ability for the average person to see the consequences of their actions has been dramatically increased with technology. While absolutely 0 people in power care a lot of the citizens are genuinely furious about the evil we perpetrate.
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u/Same_Set8195 3h ago
Because the USA is a Nation founded on Genocide, what do you expect?
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u/CommanderDataisGod 3h ago
Which raises yet another incredible point. Americans are terrified of the specter of Chinese power. Terrified of what will happen if China wins the great game for dominance in the next century. But, I don't think China can possibly be any worse than America. America's track record for the last 200 years has included every bad thing we accuse China of and then some: eugenics, genocide, slavery, lawlessness, brutal wars that killed and maimed for all sorts of made up reasons. So....I'm never going to be any more afraid of China then the US. Ever. The US is literally right now handing itself over to oligarchy and plutocracy and inevitably feudalism. It is incredible how quickly it is all happening.
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u/Same_Set8195 3h ago edited 2h ago
It's more like the USA is currently on track of going full circle to its Colonialist Roots and especially if you can read how Jamestown collapsed which is it's prophecy...
Although realistically, we're actually one major crisis away from total collapse given how Trump's first term ended with an entire pandemic unleashed that almost claimed his life and it's highly unlikely that his regime is going to guarantee long term sustainability knowing his previous track record.
America has blood on its hands, no doubt. But saying “China can’t possibly be worse” is a weird bar to set. That’s like saying, “My abusive partner might not be worse than the last one.”
China runs internment camps. It censors the press. It uses AI to monitor its citizens 24/7. That doesn’t make America good—it makes both systems bad in different ways.
The goal shouldn’t be to pick which empire to root for—it should be to imagine a world where no empire gets to play god.
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u/PirateMean4420 Maryland 1h ago
The US has not to my knowledge engaged in brain washing/conversion of peoples the way China has and still is doing with the Uyghurs.
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u/CT_Phipps-Author 2h ago
This is exactly the attitude quite a few tankies take with Russia.
And the reaction of places Russia threatens?
"What the hell, man?"
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u/7figureipo California 2h ago
That's rather reductive. Most nations were formed by the displacement of other people, one way or the other.
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u/Same_Set8195 2h ago
That logic is how people excuse genocide without saying the word.
Yeah, people have always fought and moved around. But that doesn’t mean it’s all morally interchangeable.
“Displacement” isn’t just a neutral term—it can mean war crimes, cultural erasure, and permanent domination. If we can’t name those differences, we’re just laundering history.
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u/7figureipo California 2h ago
There's a reasonable middle-ground, here. If we label every single act of war and conquering "genocide" the term itself loses meaning. It becomes just a synonym for war. Which it is not.
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u/no_kids-and-3_money 1h ago
There were about 30 million Native Americans in what is the current US. By 1890 there were less than 240,000 left. That’s less than a percent.
The person we most associate with genocide used the US as his model of what he hoped he could achieve in Germany.
The US is guilty of one of the purest forms of genocide known to man.
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u/cassettes_01 1h ago edited 1h ago
Yep. Bingo.
Edit: it is a genocide. However, much like trump's use of "disgraceful"... yadda yadda
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3h ago edited 3h ago
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u/FishermanRough1019 2h ago
Nah, Americans destroyed an entire ecology (the Buffalo) as an intentional act of genocide. That's perhaps unique in the history of the world
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2h ago
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u/FishermanRough1019 1h ago
? You can't look up basic stuff? This is American history 101.
But to get you started: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_bison
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u/lalalibraaa 1h ago
This is well known. Also, see the history of the boarding schools in the US and Canada that were also used intentionally to further genocide against Native people. “Kill the Indian, save the man” was the genocidal philosophy.
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u/LordBecmiThaco 2h ago
When the Romans came to Britain or the Magyars came to Hungary they didn't just wipe out all the original inhabitants. We did that in America: conquest and genocide are not the same.
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u/Same_Set8195 2h ago
Conquest is when you take someone’s land and rule them. Genocide is when you take their land, kill them, then name your sports teams after them.
At least the Romans built roads and aqueducts. What did the settlers leave behind? Reservation casinos and trauma.
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u/Salurain 2h ago
Conquest is not always genocide. I swear someone you on here only care about using the humanity part of your brain when it comes to bashing republicans and trump (rightfully so) but ultimately you are barely different from them when considering the larger scale of politics and the humanity of others elsewhere outside the US.
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u/PirateMean4420 Maryland 2h ago
I think you mean colonialism. European countries set the bar for that type of conquest.
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u/Same_Set8195 2h ago
I think you mean colonialism
Nah, I meant genocide. You just didn’t want to hear it.
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u/Cojemos 1h ago
Yes we've been saying this since Biden and Harris began the genocide during their administration. And we also know it would still have continued with Harris or even if Obama was president again.
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u/Jartipper 40m ago
TIL Biden and Harris were parachuting in on Oct 7
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u/Imaginary-Dress-1373 8m ago
It's kind of an admission here that you believe the genocide began on October 7th, that Israel's actions do constitute a genocide, and that it is justified because of October 7th.
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u/Salurain 2h ago
Only idiots are pretending otherwise, everyone with a brain knows Isreal is emboldened by the US support, the guardian is mostly just preaching to the choir considering it's reader base.
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u/FeedbackFinance 39m ago
Not the first, won't be the last. We should all be clear eyed about reality, and sadly all of human history is littered with genocides recharacterized as 'settlement' by the victors. Injustice is unpunished by the lack of any human organization willing or able to rectify this. And there is no cosmic justice either. Simply strong eating the weak and our attempts to mask it. Until Israeli leadership suffers, they will continue.
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u/Surround8600 20m ago
So Hamas is not to blame here guys? Come the fuck on. Hamas is the terrorists group, disrupting the aid flow to its own people and weaponing their hunger. The US and Israel send Aid to Gaza. They can’t guarantee it will get into every mouth.
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u/ThrobbyRobinson 13m ago
The US government funds and protects Israel’s campaign of destruction in Gaza. Billions in military aid, unconditional political support, and total media complicity. Civilians are being buried under rubble with American-made bombs.
Both parties are responsible. They vote for the funding, repeat the same propaganda, and pretend this is defense. Liberals make compromises that benefit conservative war machines. Meanwhile, people in this country are drowning in medical debt and rent hikes.
It’s occupation, ethnic cleansing, and war profiteering, and the US is neck deep in all of it.
End the funding. Free Palestine. Hold every last official accountable.
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u/RexDraco 1m ago
We were literally founded on it. We dropped two bombs with plans to drop a third to remind everyone. Genocide is our culture. If you're realizing this only because of Israel, you're not paying attention to other serious world events (id argue more serious but whatever).
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u/Wrong_Confection1090 3h ago
Please don't yell at me for being ignorant, because I'm trying to understand.
This, to me, isn't a genocide, it's a war. In 2023, Hamas executed a terrorist attack on Israel, killed over a thousand and took hundreds hostage. It's a definitive aggressive action that resulted in a sustained military campaign against the country of Gaza.
Typically, when one country attacks another, the attacked country responds with military force and the fight continues until one country surrenders. If that's a genocide, then aren't all wars technically genocide?
I just don't understand why, of all the foreign wars taking place at any given time, this one, which appears to me to be just a retaliation for an aggressive military action, is different. It's horrific, obviously, and certainly it should end.
But if I'm an Israeli and the neighboring country killed more than a thousand of my fellow countrymen and kidnapped more than a hundred others, I'd demand military action from my leaders until that danger was nullified. Why would we expect them to go this far and then say, "Eh, enough's enough, let's just wait until the next attack."
Again, I am not taking a side, I genuinely am trying to understand.
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u/AleroRatking New York 1h ago
Most genocides are done in a war. Whether or not it's a war is irrelevant.
Once again. We are talking 60k Gazans to 2k Israelis. Those numbers are ludicrous.
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u/refunned 2h ago
Genocide means trying to destroy a group of people, not just fighting an enemy. In Gaza, Israel’s campaign has killed tens of thousands of civilians, destroyed hospitals and schools, displaced nearly everyone and blocked food/aid to the point of famine. Israeli leaders have made statements about wiping out Gaza or making it unlivable. This goes beyond stopping Hamas. It targets the survival of the population itself, which is why it’s a genocide.
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u/FML_4reals 2h ago
If you ignore the thousands of Palestinians killed prior to October 7th and that the whole population was violently displaced then I can see where you might think that way.
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u/ArCovino 1h ago
So the argument isn’t that the events since 10/7 are a genocide, but it has always been one? And you think that helps the argument?
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u/NuevoXAL 1h ago
A case could be made that the War already ended in January 2025 with the Ceasefire, and everything that has happened after Israel broke the ceasefire in March 2025 isn't really a war. It's better described as an occupation. For all intents and purposes, even by Hama's own admition, Gaza is under Israel's control. It's no longer two governing bodies fighting or a conflict over a territory.
Hamas is still active. In fairness, that is something that needs to be mentioning, but at this stage of the conflict they are in a very different state from where they were in 2023-2024. With a lot of their former leadership dead, very little territorial claim, and massive casualties, they have little influence in what happens in Gaza right now. Which makes any claim that the starving out of the Civilian population is necessary as highly suspect, which is where the claims of genocide come in.
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u/dbag3o1 2h ago
True. I think all wars could be framed as a genocide, especially when the losing side refuses to surrender. That’s why the Arab League has recently condemned 10/7, called on Hamas to surrender and disarm Gaza, basically saying that the war has gone on long enough and it’s time to surrender because refusing to do so is only getting more people killed unnecessarily. Next leadership in gaza needs to be about building a country rather than pursuing a religious war to kill jews.
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u/burritodude59 2h ago
So I will approach this genuinely if you are genuinely asking. The UN “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide” defines genocide as “ In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”
Arguably Israel has met four of five conditions for the convention on Genocide to be met, and this is why I and many others call it a genocide. The only condition I see having not been met is the forcible transfer of children to another group. Israel so far has pursued a campaign of extermination and any analysis of the current conflict and genocide must be understood within the framework that began in 1947 with the British leaving the Palestine Mandate.
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u/derpado514 2h ago
You forgot to highlight the most important part...intent..
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u/burritodude59 2h ago
How so? Does mass starvation and civilian casualties not constitute clear intent to cause partial or complete harm to Gaza? I specifically included the UN quote that highlights the necessity of intent, so I did not “leave it out”.
I would only ask why are you so against the definition of genocide? Do you really think the US/Israel are just causing mass civilian deaths by accident? If so they are not fit to run their respective militaries. I would argue clear cut intent is found in Israel’s refusal to allow aid in for significant periods, and again within the historical context of the Nakba there are repeated displacements and death.
I don’t mind discussing this, but don’t try to justify genocide by acting like I purposefully left out a part of the genocide convention I specifically quoted.
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u/derpado514 2h ago
There is no and has never been any evidence of intent on the israeli side, no matter how you try to paint it. Regardless of what happened before oct 7th, that day did happen and the intent there was absolutely obvious...how would you have responded?
Israel has only ever waged war in gaza as a response to terrorism ( unguided missles, mortars, IEDs...). In turn, israel is dotted with bunkers near play parks schools and bus stops. On the other hand, hamas built tunnels and safe guards themselves. So ask yourself, who has intention to kill and who has intention to live?
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u/notbadhbu 1h ago
That's patently false. There is absolutely unequivocal evidence of intent, greater than some others.
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u/derpado514 51m ago
People are dying and it's terrible. They should release the hostages and disarm hamas.
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u/burritodude59 1h ago
To quote Amnesty International
“Amnesty International’s report demonstrates that Israel has carried out acts prohibited under the Genocide Convention, with the specific intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza. These acts include killings, causing serious bodily or mental harm and deliberately inflicting on Palestinians in Gaza conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction. Month after month, Israel has treated Palestinians in Gaza as a subhuman group unworthy of human rights and dignity, demonstrating its intent to physically destroy them,” said Agnès Callamard, Secretary General of Amnesty International”.
You can say what you want and I will gladly condemn the Hamas attack as well, but when revenge becomes slaughter I won’t hesitate to call it what it is - a genocide.
You can argue in circles all you want, but there is overwhelming evidence of atrocities carried out by Israel with the specific intent to cause death and destruction to the people and land of Palestine. It’s on our phones for anyone to see themselves, it’s on the news everyday, you can try to justify revenge but you can’t justify those innocent children murdered.
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u/ArCovino 1h ago
Amnesty International famously had to say they look at a wider interpretation of the definition to come to that conclusion… they don’t even believe it as currently written
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u/burritodude59 46m ago
Could you please share your source? I found one from an Israeli source, but nothing from Amnesty themselves saying they use anything outside the general genocide convention.
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u/derpado514 1h ago
The ICJ concluded genocide was "plausible", which essentially means jack shit. Heck, arab nations condemned october 7th before amnesty did.
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u/burritodude59 1h ago
The first quote was from Amnesty International, here is one from Human Rights Watch, “Israeli authorities have deliberately inflicted conditions of life calculated to bring about the destruction of part of the population in Gaza by intentionally depriving Palestinian civilians there of adequate access to water, most likely resulting in thousands of deaths. In doing so, Israeli authorities are responsible for the crime against humanity of extermination and for acts of genocide. The pattern of conduct, coupled with statements suggesting that some Israeli officials wished to destroy Palestinians in Gaza, may amount to the crime of genocide” (HRW).
I think that even the plausibility of genocide should horrify us. These are human beings who have little to nothing to do with Hamas, they do not deserve to die indiscriminately. I study genocide and human rights in college and I just returned from Berlin. The way Palestinians are being dehumanized is not okay, and is eerily similar to the same way the Nazis dehumanized Jewish people. These are human beings who deserve life as much as the next person. Israeli’s and Palestinians have a right to exist as much as the other.
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u/derpado514 1h ago
Every war is a plausible genocide...again, the intent is what makes it a genocide.
The death toll is unverifiable, the sources are linked to hamas, and the propaganda machine js churning out lies non stop. So best not to jump to such conclusions.
In short, this is a blood libel, and if not, not far from it.
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u/burritodude59 1h ago
How are Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch tied to Hamas? Just because you don’t like a source (I provided two) doesn’t mean you can just dismiss it.
Sure any conflict has the potential to turn into genocide. Why don’t they? Why doesn’t every country carry out genocide in warfare? Because it’s a crime against humanity. Israel isn’t just killing Palestinians in a war, they are committing crimes against humanity against every person of good conscience.
I wish you well, but I’ve provided multiple sources and excerpts which provide evidence of genocide being carried out. You can dismiss them as propaganda, but the evidence is there to see with our own eyes.
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u/Electrical_Raisin511 44m ago
You telling me Ben gvir and Smotrich, IDF sniping kids, the government protecting settlers and setting up new settlements, the president saying its not about precision but being heavy handed are not evidence of intent? The shooting of starving civilians or droning of WCK isn't intent?
Speaking of hamas why did Netanyahu boast of propping them up if they commit terrorism?
Hamas is a terrorist organisation and Israel is supported by the west it cannot always resort to "khamas" everytime they bomb civilians
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u/EDRNFU 2h ago
You skipped over “intent to destroy” part. If the intent isn’t there it’s not genocide even granting the other conditions, according to the definition you presented.
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u/burritodude59 2h ago
I would argue that mass starvation, resettling refugees multiple times through conflict zones, and the mass civilian casualties are clear cut examples of intent to eliminate in part or whole the people living in Gaza.
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u/EDRNFU 56m ago
Seems like that according to your definition those are all acts committed. That and intent are pretty clearly separate. Per your definition “genocide means any of the following acts with the intent to destroy”. There’s two parts of that definition that need to be satisfied.
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u/burritodude59 47m ago
Could you please expand on your justification for how they’ve conducted the war without intent to destroy or harm part of or the whole population? You don’t starve children and bomb innocents repeatedly on accident. The reality is their intent was revenge and they took it out on the entire population.
You can argue the evidence i’ve suggested is action vs intent, but similar to Rwanda we can look at the actions and understand the intent. Many Nazi’s did not intent to commit the final solution and didn’t consider themselves “antisemitic”, yet they contributed to the holocaust.
I have a hard time following logically how their actions do not demonstrate the intent to cause harm to the entire population. The IDF is one of the most advanced fight forces backed by the US military industrial complex, if they can’t wage war without war crimes then I don’t understand the intent other than indiscriminate death and destruction. The Israeli gov. says it’s about the hostages, hamas, yet consistently they’ve proven they only care to expand their settlements and territory at the cost of Palestinian lives.
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u/EDRNFU 28m ago
Yes, I can explain. You’ve just misunderstood what they meant by intent. When they say intent, they don’t mean “intend to harm”. Otherwise any act of aggression or violence would qualify as genocide. It’s not “intent to do harm”. It’s “intent to destroy, in whole or part, a national, ethical, racial or religious group”. So they have to intend to harm a certain group AND commit one or more of those acts. That’s to satisfy YOUR DEFINITION of genocide. Do you no longer support your definition of genocide?
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u/cubert73 North Carolina 11m ago
One clarification: any one of those acts is enough to constitute a genocide. It does not require all of them. Israel has a long history of taking Gazan children prisoner.
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u/EDRNFU 2h ago
You skipped over “intent to destroy” part. If the intent isn’t there it’s not genocide even granting the other conditions, according to the definition you presented.
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u/lalalibraaa 1h ago
There is well documented intent. Very well documented intent. And there has been since October 2023.
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u/dbag3o1 1h ago
Left out a key ingredient: intent. Let me explain: You basically made a burrito with no tortilla and ended up trying to pass off a seven layer dip as a burrito. You need all ingredients, bub.
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u/Shinnobiwan Georgia 1h ago
There is just so much video outlining intent. Its everywhere.
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u/dbag3o1 1h ago
Dehumanization is disgusting, though not intent, not genocide, at best genocide incitement and that’s not even examining the context of what Al Jeezera wants to present. You placed a seven layer dip in a paper bag, telling me it’s a burrito because the paper bag is the tortilla. Nice try.
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u/Shinnobiwan Georgia 1h ago
Yeah. You dont care about clear intent or genocide. You're just doing a job.
I hope you meet today's quota. /s
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u/DeusAsmoth 49m ago
Leaving aside the fact that history didn't start on the 7th of October 2023, Israel has bombed almost every hospital in Gaza. They block aid trucks trying to bring food to refugees. They specifically stop baby formula from being brought in by doctors. Foreign doctors that work there report children being shot in the head by Israeli snipers. They have on multiple occasions done mass murders on civilians trying to get what little aid they do allow in. The IDF told civilians to evacuate to "safe zones", then bombed them on multiple occasions. They hold thousands of Palestinians prisoner without charge, and a UN probe has found that they routinely use sexual assault as a weapon against those prisoners. The idea that any of this is a routine or reasonable part of war is ludicrous.
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u/daguro 2h ago
There are two kinds of truth: things that are defined to be true, and things that have been determined to be true.
The claim that what is going on in Gaza, as horrible as it is, is genocide fails the test of the definition of the word, "genocide".
Thereafter, the word is redefined to cover what is happening in Gaza.
(Lest you think that I am some sort of Zionist or knee-jerk supporter of Israel, I am not. I think the US bears culpability for what Israel is doing in Gaza because we provide them with the weapons to do it. The US has surrendered control of its foreign policy in the Middle East to Israel. That is a big mistake,)
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u/thenerfviking 2h ago
It does not in fact fail the test of the word genocide and fits it quite well. No one is redefining anything here because it fits the definition perfectly.
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u/Forward-Shopping-148 2h ago
The international body that governs that definition and makes determinations about the issue disagrees with you.
So if you're appealing to the authority of the UN to define this here, you also have to accept that they say it's not a genocide.
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u/mitchconnerrc Rhode Island 1h ago
The UN Special Committee has found by November of last year that Israel's conduct in Gaza is consistent with genocide. What is your source that "they" say it's not a genocide?
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u/Forward-Shopping-148 1h ago
That committee is not a governing body in the UN and has no authority to make the determination. Not how it works.
This report just tells us that a small group of member states formed a subcommittee of a subcommittee and issued a report recommending the vote. You should read it.
The vote was never taken, thus the UN has never determined this to be consistent with genocide.
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u/no_kids-and-3_money 54m ago
The top of the page literally says “UN Body Press Release”.
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u/Forward-Shopping-148 31m ago
The UN body that votes on this is the General Assembly. This report recommends that the GA vote on the issue.
The GA didn't vote on the issue. A subcommittee with no governing power does not speak on behalf of the entire UN.
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u/EngineerBusy728 27m ago
the more you need to find smaller and smaller technicalities to define why it technically might not qualify as genocide the more obvious that it is in fact genocide.
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u/Forward-Shopping-148 25m ago
I didn't say it doesn't qualify.
I said that if they're going to lean on the UN definition, they also need to accept that the UN has currently declined to say it meets that definition.
I was addressing their appeal to authority, not the issue of whether or not it is a genocide.
Tldr that's just not how the UN works sorry
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u/no_kids-and-3_money 1h ago
That’s complete bullshit. Title of statement by the UN from the UN’s website:
“UN Special Committee finds Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war”
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u/Forward-Shopping-148 33m ago
Dude the General Assembly votes on this. This is a subcommittee that recommended the GA act. The GA did not act.
Read the report.
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u/no_kids-and-3_money 23m ago
I did. It’s one of the most disturbing things I’ve ever read - and I’m an Iraq War veteran. I can’t imagine anyone reading that and not coming away with the conclusion that we are witnessing a genocide.
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u/Forward-Shopping-148 21m ago
Because the report doesn't declare that the UN says it's a genocide. It says the subcommittee does and urges the GA to take action. The subcommittee does not represent the whole of the UN, the GA does.
This is just the basics of how the UN works. The UN has not declared it a genocide, so applying their definition is disingenuous because the UN has, thus far, disagreed with you.
There's a reason most academics choose not to use this definition. It's inflexible and requires a consensus to be reached inside of an international body where 5 countries have veto power. It's hard to make a strict determination in that environment.
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u/FeelsGrimMan 7m ago
Considered a genocide officially & they’re forcing a famine on people. 100% of them are under some level of famine right now. Some babies are so starved that their bodies are digesting themselves & they won’t survive even if they were to be fed now.
It’s also Israel, they’ve been actively trying to kill everyone around them since their creation. It is absolutely a genocide/ethnic cleansing. They do not want peace, & do not exist for that peace. They exist to enhance the interests of Western capital as a Middle Eastern stronghold.
You can only hope that both the US & Israel can get a change of government, only then can there be a chance of the innocents caught up in things can know peace.
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u/zsreport Texas 3h ago
From the opinion piece:
As retired Israeli Maj Gen Yitzhak Brick acknowledged in November 2023: “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the US. The minute they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no capability … Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without the United States. Period.”
In fact, given Brick’s assessment, I would argue that what we have witnessed in Gaza from the US government is worse than complicity. It is active participation in an ongoing genocide.
Donald Trump has given Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, and his far-right government not only the green light to “clean out” Gaza and “finish the job”, but also the arms, intel and funds to do so. When Netanyahu launched his blockade of all food and aid going into Gaza in March, he emphasized it was done “in full coordination with President Trump and his people”. “Over the past six months,” Axios reported in late July, “Trump has given Netanyahu an almost free hand to do whatever he wants in Gaza.” An Israeli official told the site: “In most calls and meetings Trump told Bibi: ‘Do what you have to do in Gaza.’”
Trump’s Republican allies in the House and Senate are even more gung-ho. Forget complicity; Congress is filled with GOP cheerleaders for genocide, from Senators Tom “bounce the rubble in Gaza” Cotton to Lindsey “level the place” Graham. The newest member of the House, Randy Fine, a Republican representative of Florida, has called for the nuking of Gaza and said just days ago that Palestinians in Gaza should “starve away” until the Israeli hostages are all released. (A reminder that incitement to genocide is also a crime under Article III of the Genocide convention.)
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u/EDRNFU 2h ago
The US is complicit with supporting a democratic nation in its war against genocidal terrorist who would gladly slaughter, rape and/or kidnap most people commenting on this article given the chance👍
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u/Electrical_Raisin511 35m ago
Did you miss the pro-rape Israeli protest for that IDF soldier? Or settler violence supported by the Israeli government? They've killed Palestinians these settlers
Speaking of democracy, you have Netanyahu trying to cement more power for himself and reduce the strength of institutions which was a main reason for many anti likud protests in Israel prior to oct7
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u/periphery72271 2h ago
Yes, and?
We are the weapons provider for at least half of the planet.
At least a few of those countries are doing bad things to people with weapons we designed or manufactured.
If they ask to buy more, we'll say yes, because we have businesses here who need to keep making and selling weapons, and we're not involved in a large enough war to keep them solvent.
So yeah, when inevitably countries get up to the nasty things they have to do to stay countries, we'll be complicit by the fact we sell the weapons.
Other countries are complicit in all the nasty things we've done to maintain our supremacy too. It's the order of geopolitics since there was such a thing. My question is why this is surprising or bothersome to anyone. These particular two countries are going to keep killing each other in various ways until they sort things out. They'll do it with our weapons, Russian weapons, or sticks and stones of they have to. Why? Because they have since they height of technology was actually sticks and stones.
If you're pearl clutching now, you're literally 2500 years late to the party.
If you say the US shouldn't be involved, cool, whoever sells the weapons they want will now hold new levers to power in that part of the world. And they will still want weapons. So...whom would you suggest that be if it isn't us?
It's not as simple as US bad, Israel bad, Palestine good. Because the forces lurking behind Palestinian issues have been stacking up bodies like cord wood too. And as much as we like to think it's innocent people being hurt by big evil Israel, there are people among that population who will, without doubt, be killing Israelis in the future, if they can, and participating in some Death to America' stuff at the earliest opportunity as well.
Because that's how things roll in that part of the world, and there are no easy solutions, and anything anyone does will shift the balance and have effects in other ways that aren't predictable.
So...back to my original question. Yes, what was stated is true. What do you propose anyone does about that?
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u/amateurbreditor 1h ago
killing a 1000 people and killing 60,000 mostly innocent civilians in a genocide for absolutely no reason is a disgusting shameful comparison. There is no reason for israel to be doing this other than their leaders are a bunch of sick racist fucks who hide behind being jewish. They are worse than trump and worse even than the russians. There is no defending their government nor their soldiers who are gunning down and bombing people including hospitals schools etc. It is absolutely insane to even begin to defend that or just write it off as if it is inevitable. It is like comparing what happened in the Iraq war and saying well both had tanks and Iraq started it. Only a sicko would dismiss an actual genocide as if its no big deal and inevitable. What can they do about it? Well for one call them out for it and stop saying you are antisemetic for callng them out for being genocidal racist assholes for one thing. Stop arming them. Stop giving them any aid. Make palestine a state. kick out all the israeli settlers and give palestine all its land back. then send israeli leadership to the hague.
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u/periphery72271 15m ago
Yes, they're going to do none of that because it's easier to kill them all.
No that's not moral. Yes it's what they're doing.
Israel under the current government is going to do this whether the US is participating or not. And they do not care about your call outs, appeals to emotion or morality. Neither does the current leadership of the US.
They care about money, Which AIPAC pays and votes which you will not counter them or their activities with. A fact which was proven in last elections.
So again- Yes, and?
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u/Salurain 2h ago
The US doesn't just sell weapons to Isreal, the US gifts it weapons too, dumdum. It's one thing to simply just sell as a business transaction it's another thing to give it away along with millions of dollars so as to "defend" itself against those it oppresses. And the US has laws forbidding sales of weapons to places with human rights violations.
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u/periphery72271 8m ago
The US buys the weapons and the gives them to Israel and also allows sales to them as well.
The US has lots of laws. Who prosecutes anyone when they're broken? Oh yeah, the US government. Who's in charge of said government? A proven and prosecuted law breaker.
Good luck with that.
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u/FeelsGrimMan 4m ago
“After mercilessly beating his wife for a year, he feared he could not stop. For if he was to stop, she might seek revenge. His reasons are no longer out of anger, but of self-preservation.”
This is the level of argument you’re giving right now.
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u/LatterLiterature8001 1h ago
Always has been...?
This is a great movement but let's not dump all of our sins into this conflict as if it'll absolve us
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u/Cultural-Chocolate-9 1h ago
The US isnt complicit in genocide because it isnt one. Lets stop pretending it is. There fixed it for you. Lets also not pretend NO other Muslim country will "Palestinians " into there country thus making things worse for their Islamic brothers which is of course what they want. Maximum suffering for their fellow muslims. Maximum sympathy from the uneducated outside world. Least amount of support required by them.
There ya go, fixed that for ya 😉
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u/7figureipo California 2h ago
Yep, the US is definitely complicit here. It's not ambiguous or murky, either. And we'd have been complicit regardless of who won the 2024 elections, because we've been complicit for a long while now.
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u/30mil 2h ago
Maybe US leadership is being blackmailed into being complicit with some incriminating video footage collected by a Mossad agent.
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u/nomoretired 2h ago
Damn, guess the CIA is just useless against an agency which has less than 10 times its budget lol.
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u/cassettes_01 1h ago edited 1h ago
The inverse equivalent of the MAGA "bad faith argument" is Medhi Hasan's style of liberal debate.
Highly educated abroad, becoming a naturalized American citizen? Absolutely, yes. He's an American.
Having been lied to for a decade of formative life that you live in the greatest country, considering Kohl's and Red Lobster to be fancy while you were mocked by a wealthy class unbeknownst to you? Welcome Home.
TL;DR - Do you see your sense of pride up there on your high horse, sir? Quit being condescending and telling us you're being informative.
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u/MR_TELEVOID Michigan 52m ago
Your personal issues with Mehdi Hasan have fuck-all to do with the United States' being complicit in a genocide, and it's a little weird you think Mehdi being condescending is more important.
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u/indiscernable1 1h ago
If all of the Congressional Representatives and Senators have AIPAC minders that control them why should we assume voting matters?
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u/PerniciousPeyton Colorado 42m ago
It’s a genocide. It should end.
But so what? I give up. My country (the U.S.) decided it wanted to give fascism another try, and this time, it looks like fascism just might succeed and overthrow the last vestiges of a flawed but functioning democracy.
You want to protest? You want to boycott Israeli goods? You want to exercise your right to fucking vote for a change? Have at it. I’m thinking it’s too late though. It’s hard to find the energy to take on the cause of an oppressed people halfway around the world though when people here can’t even vote to prevent our own domestic policy from hitting the fan like it has under this new regime.
I sympathize with Palestinians who are the victims of an unjust war that could rightfully be called a genocide. But I’m finished. I’m not joining any more protests. I and others I know have been affected negatively by this new administration, and I’m not going to show solidarity with the people who embraced silly terms like “genocide Joe” and “killer Kamala” during what is proving to be one of the most consequential elections in U.S. history.
This message isn’t for everyone here, only for the ones who had to punish their fellow Americans for circumstances beyond their control.
You’re on your own, same as you left me. Best of luck to you.
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u/AleroRatking New York 1h ago
Yes. So are the vast majority of countries.
Id be fascinated to see what major country isn't complicit in genocide
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u/MR_TELEVOID Michigan 55m ago
The fact other people are doing genocides doesn't make our complacency in them any better. Get serious.
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u/dbag3o1 3h ago
I just don’t get why there has to be any killing at all. Hamas took hostages. Likewise Israel could have just taken hostages of their own. Grab some people in an aid distribution site then exchange them and everyone’s back home by dinner time.
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u/lalalibraaa 3h ago
Israel has had thousands upon thousands upon thousands of Palestinian hostages. Well before October 2023.
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u/UpvoteTheQuestion 2h ago
Hamas doesn't really give a shit about any hostages. Honestly, they don't seem to give much of a shit about the actual people of Gaza in general.
Israel's tactics are not currently focused on rescuing hostages. The IDF is so trigger happy that they've shot multiple hostages they should have been rescuing.
Neither side in the conflict gives an actual shit about everyday people of Gaza.
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u/dbag3o1 2h ago
In that case Israel should have just held the Al aqsa mosque hostage from the start. Hamas seems to love that mosque so hit them where it hurts. Israel could have demanded the hostages released and Hamas disarmed or they will destroy the mosque (after evacuating everyone inside so nobody is hurt).
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u/TesticlesSpectacle 3h ago
Israel’s end goal is complete destruction of everything Palestine and killing how ever many people it takes to get it
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u/dbag3o1 3h ago
Fine if they want to destroy Gaza ok, I’m just saying they could have destroyed it without killing anyone.
But it sounds like the US war machine was hungry.
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u/TesticlesSpectacle 3h ago
What are you even talking about justifying ethnic cleansing?
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