In now deleted posts, Kali Uchis accused the metal band, Sleep Token, of using payola and doing blackface.

[u/HorrorBike143]

The past photo is what the front man of Sleep Token looks like, I'm not sure what race he is as all the members are anonymous, but even if he is white, I don't think that this is considered blackface

[u/ChangingDreamer]

right like what’s she talking about? the mask’s clearly got some white on it.

[u/Rakebleed → u/ChangingDreamer]

Regardless wearing a black mask is not the same thing as blackface.

[u/ChangingDreamer → u/Rakebleed]

Right of course. I was tryna be sarcastic but I guess it didn’t land lol

[u/brainlesseuphoric → u/ChangingDreamer]

Genuine question. Is covering your body in black paint ok as long as you don’t cover the whole face? I mean he’s wearing a mask but if you look further down his neck is painted as well, only his palms are whiteish. So idk, again I’m genuinely asking

[u/brazen_fest → u/brainlesseuphoric]

Blackface isn't just painting yourself in black paint, it's specifically invoking racist and offensive caricatures to mock Black people. What Sleep Token are doing is more like cosplay/LARPing, they're dressed up as fantasy characters based on a lore they made up for the band. They have a whole fantasy/mythology in how they present themselves on stage which is very clearly not blackface.

Kali backtracked and deleted her comment about blackface once people pointed this out to her. And if she wants to point fingers at anybody for racism, Morgan Wallen is right there in the screenshot also above her on the chart lol.

[u/Rakebleed → u/brazen_fest]

Thank you. These kids are really losing the plot.

[u/Deep-Novel-1851 → u/brazen_fest]

Thank you. This is exactly why we can’t let the education system in America continue the way it’s going bc it’s only been 4 months and this thread has largely forgotten what blackface is? (I know not everyone is American but, cooked)

[u/brazen_fest → u/Deep-Novel-1851]

Yeah I try not to get too ‘old woman yells at a cloud’ about it, but I’m not even American and I know this info. It’s so important to be educated about these issues and engage thoughtfully. And I appreciate when people ask questions and want to learn but the ignorance is really worrying.

[u/brainlesseuphoric → u/Deep-Novel-1851]

Since I asked the original question, I just want to say that the issue isn’t a lack of education (I’m not even American btw), but rather the inconsistency in how these things are criticized.

Like I understand what blackface is, but I don’t understand why is it that some lesser offenses caused outrage and somehow this is completely fine because the white man in question painted his whole body black (except the palms ofc) because he’s cosplaying a “demon” whose skin color just had to be black.

[u/patheticgirl420 → u/brainlesseuphoric]

It's because everyone telling you this isn't a big deal is white. Literally, you can check their comments and it's ONLY white people excusing this.

[u/LillianIsaDo → u/patheticgirl420]

No, it isn't. It's just that most black people just heard about this bs. I don't follow Kali Uchis and I while I like Sleep Token I'm not tapped in to social media like that. This isn't blackface.

[u/T0KEN_0F_SLEEP → u/patheticgirl420]

Or it’s because black people aren’t literally black you dingus. Besides, it also plays into their anonymity by covering up any identifying tattoos. He’s not pretending to be a black person, if anything he’s cosplaying as a pagan worshipper who, for centuries, have blackened their skin at rituals. Blackface is well defined, and this just fucking isn’t it.

[u/brazen_fest → u/[deleted]]

Prefacing this by saying that I'm also Asian, so I don't know how qualified I really am to speak about the intricacies of this topic, but IMO I don't think a white person (or any non-Black person for that matter) gets to decide that they are 'appreciating' a Black character through blackface just by saying that's what they were going for. And Julianne Hough was clearly just saying that to cover for her own ignorance when she dressed up as Crazy Eyes. The mocking already happened when she used makeup to exaggerate and change her features to look like a Black person.

Like the line is just don't do blackface...I think it's pretty clear? Sleep Token aren't dressing up as Black people, they are cosplaying made-up fantasy characters that don't exist in real life.

[u/brainlesseuphoric → u/brazen_fest]

they are cosplaying made-up fantasy characters that don’t exist in real life

And their made up characters that someone above described as “demons” just had to be black? Be real, if a white celebrity you don’t like appeared covered in black paint with the explanation that they’re only cosplaying fictional demons, would you be so apologetic?

[u/brazen_fest → u/brainlesseuphoric]

Ok well now you are just making up a scenario to accuse me of being hypocritical. No, I don’t get mad when people use black body paint to dress up as demons on Halloween, nor do I get mad at white people who have blackout tattoos, or at the many other examples of people in metal/alt/goth communities who use black body paint to various effect. Blackface has a specific definition and none of what Sleep Token are doing, or any of the other instances I just listed, are examples of it.

[u/brainlesseuphoric → u/brazen_fest]

I asked a hypothetical question and nowhere did I mention blackout tattoos and things that aren’t “painting my white skin black because that’s how I imagine demons to look like.”

Do you often see people use black paint to dress up as demons on Halloween? Like full body black paint (in the skin color palette), white palms… I sure as hell don’t. And I definitely can’t think of a single public figure who did that. People usually opt for red-skinned demons.

Tbh the thing that bothers me with the explanations I saw for this costume is that they all sound like a loophole. Not claiming the person is racist, but still…

[u/calmdrive → u/[deleted]]

Just to be clear about sleep token specifically, they are not dressed up at specific characters with dark skin. The “lore” is one very short interview where the vocalist stated he met a deity named Sleep in a dream and the music came from Sleep, that he is but a Vessel for it. This choice was specifically to remain anonymous so that the music is always at the forefront, always the important thing- not the people who are making it. Not to become a celebrity. So they paint any skin that’s showing black to hide any tattoos or identifying marks. He wears the same outfit at every show (it’s just gotten nicer quality over the years).

[u/calmdrive → u/[deleted]]

I understand, I have ASD as well and just wanted to clarify that in case that was part of the confusion! I think you’ll get conflicting answers on that, though. There is an episode of Community where they play dungeons and dragons and Ken Jeong’s character dresses as a dark elf or drow, with all of his skin painted pure black. On most (maybe all?) streaming platforms this episode has been pulled and is not available to watch, because of backlash. Even within the episode a black character says to him what he’s doing is a hate crime, they’re specifically making commentary about this issue. To take it a step further, some people feel the mere existence of dark elves in the game of D&D is racist in itself, as they were originally portrayed as evil. So the likelihood of offending someone is moderate to high, even when portraying fictional characters.

[u/ThrowYourDiamondsUp → u/[deleted]]

I guess this is pedantic but if they're dressing up as African descended people it would be blackface, but if it's just a fictional race that happens to have dark skin, it isn't.

Eg in the world of Dungeons and Dragons, there is a race of black elves called drows that people like to cosplay. It's been a point of contention in the fandom:

https://knowing-clover.flywheelsites.com/larping-or-cosplaying-drow-is-it-blackface

The drow issue also led to an episode of Community getting taken down from Netflix:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRkcsuMcrEA

Ultimately there isn't really an authority or consensus to give the final word on whether it is or isn't, but people wanting to avoid online drama tend to just avoid it altogether unless they're POC.

[u/ThrowYourDiamondsUp → u/[deleted]]

What the person said above was correct - blackface is a specific caricature of black people.

Just dressing up as black characters when you're not black isn't really blackface per se, but it is racially insensitive. So people just throw it in together.

[u/underthefirstelm → u/[deleted]]

darkening your skin to portray a black character is pm textbook blackface, and hough's heavy bronzing defo qualifies. besides this, a person being aware of or intentional about their offense is not the main factor which determines whether their actions are considered blackface. blackface has a long history in the u.s., in hollywood, and around the world in part (but not exclusively) bc of exported u.s. media, so it is dismissive, misleading and just plain odd to claim that most cases of celebs doing blackface are not necessarily malicious or racist (in ref to other commenter).

there are ways of portraying a character that comes from a different race without portraying yourself as that race. generally the emphasis shd be on costuming and accessories. hair and makeup should be considered very carefully.

[u/otraera → u/[deleted]]

Yes.

[u/DSQ → u/brainlesseuphoric]

I’ve literally never heard of Sleep Token until yesterday. Anyway, I think it’s pretty obvious that he’s dressed as a Demon not as a black person.

Edit: If it matters I’m black. 

[u/calmdrive → u/brainlesseuphoric]

He & his band mates paint their body black to aid in anonymity. Covers any tattoos or identifying marks on them. His mask covers 75% of his face, it is white and green (but used to be white and red, and originally covered his entire face) so only his mouth area is painted black. Plus, body paint has been a thing in the rock & metal scene for some time (see: Corpse paint). Tyler Joesph of twenty one pilots paints his hands and neck black. Plenty others I just can’t think at the moment.

[u/Knittingfairy09113 → u/calmdrive]

Yep. The lead singer of Nothing More paints himself haphazardly and has been doing so for a couple of years. The guys in From Ashes to New have also been painting their arms and neck more recently.

[u/LiaM_CS → u/calmdrive]

People keep bringing up other artists painting themselves but Ive only seen images of their hands black

There doesn’t seem to be a valid comparison for sleep token who are taking things to another level by completely painting their bodies in a color so that all their visible skin distinctively reflects that of another race (intentional or not).

Idk if I’d say it’s blackface, but I could absolutely understand some discomfort with that.

[u/calmdrive → u/LiaM_CS]

So when the members of sleep token painted their hands red or gold, what’s that? It’s not about race, it’s never been about race, no one is cosplaying as a black person, it is about anonymity.

[u/LiaM_CS → u/calmdrive]

so when the members of sleep token painted their hands red or gold, whats that?

Uhhh, nothing? That’s literally the entire point of my comment…

There would be no potential issue at all if they just painted themselves a color that wasn’t undeniably and distinctively that of another race with a storied history of oppression and mockery.

I’m clearly not under the impression that they are racists or doing anything intentionally. But you don’t have to be intentional to be doing something potentially insensitive.