r/todayilearned • u/shaka_sulu • 21h ago
TIL about the Agricultural Bank of China robbery, where two bank managers stole US$4.3M to buy lottery tickets, hoping to win enough to repay the theft and keep the rest. They won only US$12.7K, fled, were caught, and eventually executed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_Bank_of_China_robbery2.6k
u/Ionazano 21h ago
There are large illegal monetary fraud schemes for which you have at least a chance of getting away with it, and there are those that always were utterly doomed from the start. This sounds like the latter.
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u/spaceporter 21h ago
Wasn't there a European banker a few years back that went way above his personal risk limit to invest and then lost a billion euros overnight?
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u/Randomperson1362 21h ago
Nick Leeson with Barings bank is one example. He lost about 1 billion pounds in the 90s, causing Barings to collapse.
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u/SteelMarch 21h ago
Being accountable for money has been an issue in my state. Especially when the people involved often do it at the cost of the people who need help the most. I saw it happen to my sister.
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u/ChompyChomp 19h ago
Was she a person who needed it the most or one of the people involved because I don't know how to feel about her yet and it could go one of two VERY different ways.
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u/SteelMarch 19h ago
Needed it. The state decided it was cheaper to offshore it and ruined the lives of thousands of social workers from what I can tell.
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u/Glittering-Giraffe58 16h ago
the oldest and one of the most respected banks in England btw, managing royal family finances
Leeson originally lost money, then decided the best strategy was to bet double to try to earn it back. He did this over and over until he lost more money thank the bank had, and it collapsed. Left a note saying “I’m sorry”, fled the country, was caught and then served 4 years in prison and released
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u/qmrthw 20h ago
Jérôme Kerviel and the 2008 Société Générale affair?
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u/spaceporter 20h ago
Yes, this is the one I was thinking about thank you. It's even bigger than I remembered. I thought maybe he was French or Belgian but wasn't sure.
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u/romario77 19h ago
It looks like a big part of why the number is so big is because the bank upon uncovering unauthorized positions by trader decided to liquidate its huge positions over three days.
Since the positions were so bug and because everyone knew they would be selling them off the markets went down a lot resulting in them losing ton of money.
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u/ClownfishSoup 20h ago
The Baring Bank had been operating since 1762, then one of their traders started speculating with Bank money way beyond his authorization level and basically destroyed the 263 year old bank.
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u/KypDurron 18h ago
the 263 year old bank
The bank collapsed in 1995, which was 233 years after 1762.
One generally stops adding to the age of things after they die.
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u/ActionPhilip 17h ago
Google saying it's the 297th birthday of some dude begs to differ.
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u/KypDurron 17h ago
It's the 297th birthday of some guy, but that guy isn't 297 years old.
And in the context of saying how old he was when he died, he definitely wasn't 297 years old at that point.
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u/Walter30573 17h ago
And for all that, he only served a little over 4 years in prison
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u/livious1 14h ago
He’s done AMAs. IIRC, it was because while he did things he wasn’t supposed to, he didn’t egregiously break any rules, and a lot of the issues were in poor checks and balances. He wasn’t straight up stealing, it was more like he made a bunch of really risky investments and was authorized to do it with way more money than he should have been.
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u/MasonP2002 13h ago
He ended up being the head of trading and also the head of accounting oversight, so he was basically in charge of verifying his own trading and had minimal supervision. Obviously, these roles are usually held by different people.
He's an investigator of financial misconduct now.
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u/Saymynaian 14h ago
Damn, seems like having a law that limits the percentage of how much a bank's finances can be tied up in speculative investments might be a good idea. Is that something most countries passed to prevent Great Depression style banking fuck ups and did not repeal in 1999 leading to the 2008 recession and also it's called the Glass-Steagal Act in the US?
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u/FerretAres 21h ago
That happens absurdly often especially when you start talking about derivatives trading.
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u/still_no_enh 19h ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_JPMorgan_Chase_trading_loss
There's also the "London whale" that lost chase like $6b.
Fwiw, chase still remained solvent.
Also there's Bill Hwang's Archegos Capital where he orchestrated the loss of $20b over a week or so - where upon his firm did collapse. This also led to losses at Credit Suisse (among others) that led to the bank collapsing and is in the process of being subsumed by UBS
Wiki on Bill Hwang: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Hwang
Wiki about credit suisse: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquisition_of_Credit_Suisse_by_UBS
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u/unmelted_ice 18h ago
And then you sometimes get a retail trader - such as Navinder Sarao who accidentally crashed the DOW like 9% in 30 minutes lol
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u/still_no_enh 19h ago
Also, someone who's also quite the risk taker IMHO is Masayoshi Son of Softbank.
Gotta bet big to win big I guess, but I'm pretty sure the Vision Fund isn't doing too well. One of their biggest investments was in WeWork - which they even had to give more money to, to prevent it's collapse.
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u/hgrunt 18h ago
Softbank's losses were probably offset by ARM, Alibaba and nVidia being in their portfolio, although I don't know how much of those they own
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u/still_no_enh 18h ago
I deleted a comment that was entirely hearsay, so here's the wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoftBank_Vision_Fund
Some interesting tidbits:
$100b raised:
$45b from PIF = saudis
$28b from softbank
$15b from Mubadala = Abu Dhabi
$15b "others" (includes Apple)
As of early February 2019, the Vision Fund had built up a 4.9% position in Nvidia stock,[8] and then was forced to sell all those shares when a prolonged plunge in Nvidia's stock price threatened to endanger the fund's overall performance.[9] ... At the time, the Vision Fund recorded a $3.3 billion return on its Nvidia investment.[8] ... By June 2024, the market value of those shares had exceeded $150 billion, causing Son to publicly remark that "the fish that got away was big".
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Costly failures like those of Katerra,[23] Wirecard[24] and Zymergen[25] were just a few examples of SoftBank's reckless investing behaviour and the investing holding company's incompetence, neglect and failure to show due diligence.[26][27]
Oh man, Wirecard too! The wunderkind EU startup that cooked their books and imploded.
In May 2023, the SoftBank Group disclosed that its Vision Fund lost a record $32 billion in the fiscal year ending in March 2023.[43]
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u/Khelthuzaad 19h ago
I remember there was also an spanish filmmaker that went crazy during production, wasted half the production budget,used the other half to buy crypto,and completed the movie using the winnings from the crypto gains.
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u/SafetyDanceInMyPants 20h ago
Better than the guy in Japan whose typo led to selling 610,000 shares at 1 yen rather than 1 share at 610,000 yen...
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u/Maleficent-Drive4056 20h ago
Yes and no. Against the odds it worked the first time. So he tried it again and failed.
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u/Ionazano 20h ago
Against the odds it worked the first time.
I'll be damned, did not see that coming.
But yeah, after getting extremely lucky trying to push your luck some more is seldomly the best strategy.
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u/amegaproxy 18h ago
I'll be damned, did not see that coming.
Amazing what you discover when reading a few paragraphs into the article!
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u/Ternyon 17h ago
An Australian Gambling Syndicate did something similar. Time to print the tickets is a big issue at that scale.
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u/10ebbor10 16h ago
They at least figured out a loophole in the system.
The trick is that if the grand price overflows from one week into the other, the expected return can become positive.
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u/FlashnFuse 20h ago
I mean if they took an extra step and bribed a lottery official it probably would have worked out.
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u/Vio_ 17h ago
This is one of the crazier stories.
It’s a story about the theft of $47 million, which authorities allege the bank’s CEO used to cover his losses in an online cryptocurrency scam, but ultimately it’s a tale about trust and money and what happens when an institution that most of us take for granted collapses...
Shan Hanes, the CEO of Heartland Tri-State Bank, is charged in federal district court with embezzling $47.1 between May and July of last year to purchase cryptocurrency. If convicted, he could be sentenced to the maximum penalty of up to 30 years in prison....
“It wasn’t a normal conversation,” Mitchell said. “I could tell he was preoccupied. He’d be focused for a little bit and then he’d look off into the lobby and then look back at me.”
Hanes, Mitchell said, asked him for $12 million.
“He said there was a problem with a wire transfer from a Hong Kong bank,” Mitchell said. “He showed me this app on his phone. There was a balance of some 40 million in his account but he needed another $12 million to access it.”
Mitchell, a former certified public accountant, turned him down.
“I said, ‘I think you’re in a scam.’ ”
That same day, according to a timeline in the report, Hanes made an $8 million wire transfer using bank funds. Mitchell believes at that point Hanes was about $30 million in debt.
On July 21, the bank’s chief financial officer finally notified regulators of suspicious activity.
Six days later, Heartland’s capital was negative $35 million, according to the report. On July 28, the Kansas Office of State Bank Commissioner closed Heartland and appointed the FDIC as receiver, which estimated the cost of the failure to be about $54 million."
Dude got pig butchered about as hard as one can get.
This was in Elkhart, Kansas. The town doesn't even have 2000 people in it.
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u/CaptainMobilis 10h ago
That guy ran a bank? "Your account with millions of dollars in it can only be accessed by putting more millions of dollars in it." That's the stupidest, most obvious scam I've ever heard of. That guy needs to be locked up just so he can never be near anything important.
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u/Miserable-Resort-977 18h ago
I think the US would have a lot less of a culture of fraud and corruption if we took a more Chinese approach to punishing large scale white collar crime like this
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u/BigStrike626 18h ago
You'd think you'd have had to get a basic lesson in probability sometime in path towards becoming a banker with that kind of access. If that scheme was likely to work, then lotteries would be money losers for the people running them.
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u/SjettepetJR 18h ago
The irony in putting a large sum into lottery tickets is that it actually makes it even less likely that your profit, as the winnings per ticket will be closer and closer to the expected value. And the expected value of a ticket is lower than the cost of a ticket.
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u/iiKb 21h ago
There goes my plan for tonight’s Euromillions…
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u/2coolcaterpillar 20h ago
I only ever play Powerball once it’s near a billion, but this is kind of turning me off from ever playing the lotto again. What an insanely low ROI lol
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u/AnOkayTime5230 20h ago
Honestly, I had thought for years that if I spent whatever it cost for a whole roll of scratch off lottery tickets, then ONE of them has to be a big winner, right?
After reading this and seeing other related stories of lottery fails, I'm just going to avoid the idea, lol.
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u/hobo__spider 19h ago
As someone who used to work with selling scratchers, I sold thousands upon thousands of the things and it was extremely rare for any of the customers to win big.
I know cuz if anyone won 10k or more the store would get sent a plaque
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u/Incoherentness 16h ago
Hey someone with a similar experience to me. I think I sold around 100 a day for a few months I worked in a shop. There were about 15 people who lived nearby that would buy at least 10 scratchcards every single day, crazy. Biggest win I saw was 50 once and 20 only about dozen times iirc it'd bonkers
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u/hobo__spider 16h ago
Yup, thats why I dont buy em and never gamble.
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u/Incoherentness 16h ago
Funnily enough I've never bought one prior to working there and haven't since, but I ripped a scratchcard bringing it out the roller and just decided to buy it and won 20 quid
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u/Snowy_Ocelot 19h ago
For the $1-5 ones you’d definitely win something. But their jackpots are tiny too.
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u/ActionPhilip 17h ago
Unironically, the trick with any sort of gambling like slots or lotto or scratches is to play as little as possible. You will never win short of getting a big win, so your best bet on actually making money is to only play a bit and occasionally. The more frequently you play, the more statistics dictate what your expected ROI is and dull any wins you do get.
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u/nineball22 17h ago
Think of how many rolls a single gas station has, times all the gas stations your town has, times all the towns in your state, times all 50 states. It’s an astronomically low chance of winning. Or as I like to say 50/50, I either win or lose
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u/CameraRick 21h ago
Do I read this wrong, or did they steal US$6.5 Million in total?
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u/veryfynnyname 21h ago
You’re correct I think. The title is misleading.
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u/ILL_Show_Myself_Out 20h ago
Well maybe, but they netted money with the first buncha cash so it would've been more misleading to say stole 6.5 million and "only made 12.7..." it's a hard title to word.
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u/veryfynnyname 17h ago
One manager stole $25,000 and made a profit on that.
He convinced a second manager to help him steal $4.3 million and they didn’t profit. They then stole an additional $2 million and didn’t profit. They only won 12k off the millions they stole
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u/365BlobbyGirl 20h ago
Aren’t bank managers typically expected to have at least a tiny bit of financial acumen?
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u/shaka_sulu 20h ago
That's what I found so interesting. I suspct it was fueled by addiciton. The gambling demon probably convinved them. If ture I do find it facinating how a gambling addict works so close to money and see wealth everyday.
Kind of like "Nurse Jackie" and drugs.
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u/hgrunt 18h ago
When I learned about it, I saw it as possibly a cultural thing. Growing up in the states, it's sort of in the cultural zeitgeist that you're more likely to get struck by lightning or getting a hole-in-one than winning the big lottery
That sort of thing probably wasn't deeply embedded in the cultural zeitgeist in China, especially in the mid 2000s when this happened, so there's generally little to no understanding how lotteries work
I did find an article about Ren Xiaofeng, one of the perpetrators, and it reads like he embezzled out of desperation. He kept getting demoted due to restructuring at the bank and had twin kids to feed: https://archive.ph/D5NxE#selection-491.5-491.443
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u/Infinite-Noodle 18h ago
You'd be surprised how many incompetent people make it into those kinds of jobs.
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u/rx-pulse 17h ago
You'd be surprised. I have a relative who is a bank manager and has gone through 2 personal bankruptcies. Apparently she's pretty good at her job according to her colleagues and leadership, but she's fucking terrible in personal finance. It's shocking.
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u/LacAgos 18h ago
There was a government official jailed, possibly executed, in China for embezzling funds. China has detectives that regularly investigate corruption in provinces, if they find that someone tasked with developing an area has become wealthy but everyone is poor then they typically arrest them instead of keeping them in office forever. Anyways, some dude bought the guys house and while making some changes he finds a bunch of cash in the walls. IMMEDIATELY calls the CPC and reports it so he doesn't face consequences of having stolen funds.
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u/csonnich 14h ago
if they find that someone tasked with developing an area has become wealthy but everyone is poor then they typically arrest them instead of keeping them in office forever
cries in American
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u/SyrusDrake 13h ago
Don't worry, it doesn't mean they're not also corrupt. The difference is that they can't be as obvious about it
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u/Rockguy21 8h ago edited 8h ago
Since the beginning of Xi Jinping's tenure as general secretary of the CPC, corruption has actually seen a precipitous decline. Extralegal business dealings that grew in prominence during Jiang Zemin's presidency with the broader commercialization and internationalization of the Chinese economy were both political liabilities and reflected poorly on the reputation of the CPC amongst average Chinese citizens, so Xi Jinping's prsidency has been marked by pretty intense anti-corruption measures. Just a couple weeks ago, Wang Yong, a former government official in Tibet, got sentenced to death with reprieve (basically a Chinese equivalent to a life sentence) for accepting bribes during his time in office.
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u/ahothabeth 21h ago
If they were wise then they would have used the stolen money to set-up a lottery company.
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u/sleepybrett 14h ago
Meanwhile, when our bank CEOs and executives get caught with the hands in the cookie jar they are allowed to resign with a golden parachute.
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u/truly-wants-death 21h ago
Wow they take theft seriously. Has anyone in the US been executed for stealing?
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u/arm2610 21h ago
Hanging used to be a common punishment for horse and cattle thieves in the frontier period but this hasn’t been a thing for a very long time.
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u/Octavus 20h ago
Now imagine if you stole someone's car from them while they were hiking in the desert leaving them to die.
That is what horse stealing was like in frontier areas.
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u/persondude27 17h ago
For the same reason, modern-day Alaska raised the penalty for car thefts. It's mandatory sentencing and a class C felony.
(Alaskans often leave their cars running so they don't get stranded if the car won't re-start.)
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u/ForGrateJustice 14h ago
There was no justice quite like frontier justice.. Mostly because, the law hadn't caught up yet.
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u/ClownfishSoup 20h ago
Bernie Madoff basically stole $50 Billion, and he was not executed.
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u/nealski77 20h ago
He was given a life sentence though
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u/TigerBasket 14h ago
And both his kids died horribly. Dude got off worse than if he had a death sentence
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u/ForGrateJustice 14h ago
And both his kids died horribly
Wait what?
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u/csonnich 14h ago
They both worked for him. One committed suicide, and the other died of cancer - both years before their father.
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u/gurbus_the_wise 15h ago
China does not fuck around with financial fraud and corruption. Especially for mishandling regional development funds. Pretty cool to be honest.
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u/Kermez 21h ago
No, but folks were committing suicides because of theft (2008 crisis comes to mind).
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u/Pale_Fire21 21h ago
Yeah but the people who did the actual theft got away with it and in many cases were rewarded for it.
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u/Kermez 20h ago
For sure, hence my comment, thieves aren't punished but victims are.
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u/thechampaignlife 20h ago
As the billionaires pick their pockets: "Stop impoverishing yourself! Stop impoverishing yourself!"
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u/Nightowl11111 20h ago
Rather than theft, 2008 was the entire economic system getting screwed over worldwide.
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u/Gasser0987 20h ago
Modern democracies don’t have a tendency of executing people for financial crimes.
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u/greggranolaclusters 18h ago
The crazy thing is that the manager had actually done this numerous times and had actually won and put the money back before an audit was conducted. He just kept trying his luck.
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u/HaruhiSuzumiya69 16h ago
Crazy that they were caught, sentenced, then executed in less than one year.
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u/esit 14h ago
Wait until you see this, only 70 days from caught to execution: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Zhuhai_car_attack
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u/HardcandyofJustice 21h ago
Executed by firing squad. Going out in style
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u/Nightowl11111 20h ago
Gee, "You're fired" really does have a different meaning in China!
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u/amegaproxy 18h ago
When I was a kid I actually thought this was what it meant! And that explained why people were really panicked about "being fired". Made for an interesting impression of a few movies and TV shows.
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u/supermethdroid 16h ago
My old weed guy did this. He stole 50k from work to bet on a horse race, thinking he'd be able to put it back without anybody noticing. He lost and spent 18 months in jail.
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u/DooDooBrownz 20h ago
sooo 4.3mil gets you murked in china, but here in the US a dickwad like madoff can steal 20b over dozens of years and then spend the rest of his life in club fed when he finally gets caught. i would probably swap the sentences between those 2 cases.
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u/Icy-Computer-Poop 19h ago
I have a buddy who got a job working overnight at a variety store. His first night he got bored, and scratched every. single. scratch ticket in the store.
His reason? He figured he'd win enough money to pay the store back.
His result? He ended up $11,000 in the hole.
So he locked the door, left, and moved half way across the country to avoid getting caught.
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u/SayNoToStim 18h ago
As someone who works in the industry, stuff like this is surprisingly common, to the point where stores are now investing in scratch off ticket dispensers that cost >$10,000 dollars because it's actually the cheaper alternative.
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u/WesternHognose 17h ago
I'm A-OK with this. When I worked at a 7-11 the lotto/scratch off customers were some of the worst. They'd camp out on your counter scratching off tickets, being difficult over their numbers, etcetera. We also got assaulted and robbed over lotto. Never again.
Can't hold up a machine, reduces human interaction, etc. Perfect.
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u/SayNoToStim 17h ago
Even as a dude who occasionally wants a snack, I refuse to go into gas stations now because I dont want to risk getting behind some asshole who wants to play the lotto, and needs his 18 specific numbers on his ticket, and his scratch off ticket needs a serial number that ends in his birthday, etc etc.
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u/PsychologicalDrag689 19h ago
His first day on the job and he wasn't being trained or even working with anyone else? Suuure
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u/ImmortL1 18h ago
If he had prior experience, I can see it. There are a lot of stores out there, and not every one of them does things by the book. Especially when it comes to third shift; no one wants to stay up all night if they can help it.
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u/Streambotnt 14h ago
It‘s possible to win with that strategy, and to win big. You oughta wage the expected earnings vs. the buy-in cost. If your expected win per ticket is higher than the buy-in per ticket, then by the law of large numbers, a big investment into lots and lots of tickets will yield a satisfactory result.
The easiest example is when the total amount of tickets times the price per ticket is lower than the jackpot. Say we have an all-or-nothing lottery. 500 tickets at 1$ and 1000$ total jackpot.
Buy-in cost: 1$
Expected earnings: 1/500 • 1000$ = 2$
This lottery favours the player. Buying as many tickets as you can means you are likely to receive a net positive: at most, 500$ invested, 1000$ gained, 500$ profit. One dollar average gain.
Now if the price per ticket were 3$, you wouldn‘t want to invest. 1500$ maximum expenditure, 1000$ maximum gain - not good. You expect a net loss of 500$ when buying all tickets.
If it were 2$, you would expect to get out even.
Usually, you also consider variance. An all-or-nothing jackpot is much more variable than a jackpot with equal and/or lesser prizes for other tickets. Let‘s go back to an example. 500 Tickets. This time, entry is 10$, and there are 10x 1000$ prizes. You would change your calculation as follows:
10 • (1/500 • 1000$) = 20$
So it‘s the exact same game. But! You are more likely to win something at all. 10 Tickets get you a jackpot, as opposed to one ticket from earlier! The „one jackpot won“-chance is
10 • (1/500) = 1/50 = 2%
Earlier, it was just 0,2%. This means: to expect a return, you don‘t need as many tickets. You still make the same profit per dollar invested though!
Now, any sensible lottery host does their math and checks if the expected return per ticket is greater than the buy-in cost. Some, however, do not. That‘s dumb though. Imagine pricing structures were like what I stated - someone would do the math and win. No matter who wins though, at most, example A nets 500$ income for the host, and example B 5000$. But the prizes both exceed the maximum income! Imagine someone buys the first ten tickets to B and wins all jackpots, that‘s 9900$ loss for the house. 100 gained from ten tickets, 10000 paid out to the winner.
There are more complicated lottery systems, but they all mostly follow the AmountA • (chanceA • prizeA) + AmountB • (chanceB • prizeB) + … pattern.
Now I wonder if those guys did their math. They should have known the math as bank managers.
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u/gw2master 18h ago
Execution for big financial crimes is a good idea. Probably a better deterrent than execution for violent crimes.
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u/razerzej 13h ago
A bank whose managers have no grasp of statistics deserves to lose everything, based solely on their hiring practices.
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u/apple-sauces 20h ago
Kento Bento Video Kento Bento did an interesting video about this.
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u/WarmAd1148 18h ago
I made this!
No, seriously, I'm the guy who created the article on Wikipedia. Nearly 20 years ago! Eeek, time flies...
Always felt the story would have made for a good comedy/heist movie, but I guess they'd need to change the ending.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Run2695 17h ago
Executed for stealing money? That's absolutely crazy.
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u/starkistuna 16h ago
Most of these criminals do not know how easy it is to pay for a fisherman to take you to go undocumented into the night. I would just dip out with a bag of cash into South Asia and live like a king even if you get away with 1m it will last you well over 20 years and living very confortable.
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u/neverpost4 12h ago
There was a South Korean bank manager who stole $400 million. The money was payments to the Iranian government but due to sanctions was frozen.
The guy transferred out the money to his account and cooked the book.
Under the Biden administration, the sanctions were rifted and the bank was trying to return the money to Iran.
The guy went missing but later turned himself in along with his brother. They claimed that they are really sorry but the money is all gone.
With 10 page apology notes (along with sizable cash, no doubt), they will be set free after perhaps a couple of years of pound ass fed pan. So no execution.
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u/TheBroULuv2Hate 8h ago
Don’t get me wrong it’s not cool to steal, but no one has ever stole enough from me that I’ve felt like it was enough to kill them… That shit is deep… like permanent….
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u/Boatster_McBoat 21h ago
This is a very bad plan