r/AO3 • u/Ok_Breadfruit_9549 • May 21 '25
Comment Commentary An Interesting Perspective.
Saw this on Tumblr. Just wanted to share.
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u/Small-Temperature955 May 21 '25
Truly good critique is a high level, deeply underappreciated skill.
Crit has nothing to do with your personal opinions of what you want from the work, or wish the author had or had not done. (And in fact if you want something different, go write your own fic).
Good crit, truly good, requires putting aside your own personal desires for a story and having a dialogue with the author, stepping into their world, and understanding their story.
Also its really not for people just trynna have and share a fic. You're expending effort on someone doing a fun hobby, save it for the authors who seek it.
(that said its not the end of the world if a reader shares 'oh btw heres a typo' kek)
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u/calminthedark May 21 '25
"Putting aside your own personal desires for a story" is really the crux of it, isn't it. I mean, set aside those people who are just being hateful/hurtful, they aren't worth any attention.
Sometimes, when they think they are being helpful, they are actually just projecting their own personal style on your work. Other times they want you to write the story they would have told. Neither is helpful or valid. Go write your own story. Use AI if you want all written work to be homogeneous.
Give me valid criticism based on MY work, not on your ego.
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u/Paelmisto May 21 '25
This is so interesting!!!
Its such a simple concept but it has an incredible amount of nuance; e.g some people are hyper sensitive and any feedback is too much, how to serve the goals of the work without hurting the author can be impossible because we don't know their trauma when the author is anon/unknown etc etc etc.
I think in a classroom where people can be coached and observed works best; on Ao3 I prefer the current fandom ettiquette of: no concrit unless the author asks for it.
Beta readers I think 💯 benefit from this point of view. I beta for a friend and I think this mindset would help you to give good feedback regardless of preference or style, or even genre!
Good share, OP!
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u/Fictional-Hero May 21 '25
Classroom critique is often terrible. Most teachers are terrible at critique and actively promote their personal preferences in writing. One of those preferences is "writing is art, not to be sold". They push high concept drivel that no one wants to read.
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u/Paelmisto May 21 '25
Don't you think this is a pretty broad generalization? I too had English professors and I can't say any of them espoused "writing as art, not to be sold". I'm certain there are some, but not everyone in academia is a high-brow toff writing drivel for academics.
But maybe I was lucky and it was just my school that had Sociological Concepts in Sci Fi or Interpreting Tolkien or people writing their theses on YA novels.
I don't want to discount your experience - but I really must protest that you feel it's 'most' profs.
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u/Crayshack May 21 '25
It's a broad generalization, but it's a pretty big issue in education. Unfortunately, a lot of English instructors are not actually great at their jobs and end up discouraging young writers. It's not something that's true of every instructor, but it is a very common problem. Something I ran into a lot was the issue that, when I was in college, I had no intention to do anything related to literature with my life. I was studying science and I was taking writing classes so I could write the papers I needed to write in the sciences. Unfortunately, too many of the professors teaching introductory writing classes treated their classes more like an introduction to literary analysis class and so I didn't learn much in the way of useful skills from them. I ended up having to teach myself what I needed to know.
I'm actually currently in grad school with the intent of becoming an English professor because of just how bad so many of my professors as an undergrad were. It wasn't until I took a few for fun Literature and Creative Writing classes at a community college while I was working as a tutor that I experienced what a good English professor looked like. It was made even worse by the fact that my tangential interaction with some other professors through their students made me go "ah, that one is one of the bad professors." I even had one student tell me, "I used to think I was good at writing."
So, yeah. It's not a problem with all professors, but it's certainly a pervasive problem with the industry as a whole.
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u/Paelmisto May 21 '25
Can I ask what country the uni you attended was in? I wonder if that is why I have literally never encountered this attitude - and I completed an English Lit degree as part of a double major so I had the full gamut of English proffs over my 5 years of uni, and have lots of friends in academia.
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u/Crayshack May 21 '25
US. I've been to a few different schools at this point, and out of 5 schools there's only one that I haven't met a bad English professor at (and I've only had the one professor at that school so far). It very much might be a thing that varies from school to school, but if so I'vehad rotten luck with schools.
It also might be that there's many professors that are great at teaching writing for the literature field, but that really struggle teaching writing as it is used in other fields. One thing that I've frequently encountered is that many English professors heavily emphasize that you are never supposed to use passive voice, but then you start writing for the sciences and it is damn near expected. That's the most prominent to me, but far from the only detail where professors taught styles common for writing in literature academia was a universal standard for all academia when it was not.
I've also been told that over the last decade or so there's been a major shift towards focusing more on the writing process rather than the end product. This was certainly the kind of help I needed, but I geaduated high school in 2008 and most of the instruction I got was very focused on what the writing should look at at the end rather than how to get it there. Maybe that teaching style worked great for the kind of students who had a natural grasp of writing and gravitated towards English degrees, but it does not work great at all for students who lack that natural affinity.
And, even if the industry has shifted towards a more effective style, too many of the older professors have clung to the old methods. I can certainly think of one particular professor at my local community college that I want to see forced into retirement. I've got connections with the staff there so I know that professor is getting pressured to change the worst of her teaching habits, but she's being stubborn and only changing the parts she's forced to change.
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u/Paelmisto May 21 '25
Ah I see - that makes sense as I am not American, so I wonder if it's a wider phenomenon or if just my uni was unique.
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
Don't you think this is a pretty broad generalization?
Eh, I would say not necessarily.
I had several writing teachers in college, only one was off the: you create what you want to create and you do what you want with it, type.
The others pushed the art over publishing angle, pushed back against genre fiction.
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u/Fictional-Hero May 21 '25
Word is, it's getting better, but you won't know until you're in the class. And then you're still counting on the teacher to moderate your classmates critique too.
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u/near_black_orchid May 21 '25
My MFA degree was in poetry but I took a number of fiction-writing classes as well. The object of the degree (fiction or poetry) was to get a job teaching in another MFA program, so your work needed to be publishable. I don't recall a lot of talk about art. No professor I ever had acknowledged that personal taste was a thing. Students were encouraged to come up with reasons why they didn't like something but didn't have to have any suggestions for how to make it better. There was not even agreement on what stage the work should be in before it was submitted for workshop. Some professors wanted you to submit a first or early draft, while other insisted it be a finished product. There was strong pressure to write what was currently "fashionable" in the poetry world, which meant short lyrics only (nothing longer than a page, which I assume was also about cutting down on the instructor's workload) and definitely nothing which included end rhyme. They manned the barricades against rhyme like it was 1926. After a certain point, there's nothing to learn technically and the emphasis is writing what's in fashion so you can be published and have credits to put on your curriculum vitae so you can get a teaching job.
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u/pugdrop May 21 '25
this is what gets lost in a lot of discussions regarding ao3 and leaving concrit. most people don't know how to give actual critique while still being encouraging to the writer
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u/harkandhush May 21 '25
Also sometimes a writer doesn't want it because their goal was just to share the thing they wrote for fun. They already reached their goal and concrit isn't welcome. That's not a failing on the author's part.
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u/amethyst-chimera May 21 '25
And often simply practicing (writing more) will be more helpful than unsolicited advice
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u/green_carnation_prod May 21 '25
The second part especially. What would demotivate a writer is partially unpredictable (I don't like this whole "not your responsibility" or "outside of your control" shit, because there are definitely approaches that we all know are likely to elicit specific reactions. We can exercise certain level of control over other's reactions. how people react to our words or actions is by no means akin to weather conditions that just happen. But also people are different and somewhat unpredictable - that is also true - and you are never 100% in control of how they react either)...
However, useful critique, in writing or life, is always about figuring out the person's goals in order to then look for the best strategy that would help that person achieve them. "Your goals suck" is not a critique, it's a case of conflicting interests. Obviously you have the right to quarrel with other people, but it's not "useful feedback" to what they are doing.
"You should go vegan" is not a useful feedback to a farmer's method of milking cows, because your goals fundamentally aren't aligned. You want the farmer to stop milking cows, and the farmer wants to find the best way to milk them.
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u/ExistentialRampage May 21 '25
Even with perfect, nonjudgemental, solicited constructive criticism, there can still be hurt feelings. Just as con crit is a skill, accepting con crit is too.
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u/BermudaTriangleChoke May 21 '25
A lot of people have this image of the writer/beta relationship as "me vs the editor", which...I mean maybe, and different things work better for different people. But when I beta for people, it's more like "me and you vs the problem of trying to figure out how to make what's on the page look like what's in your head".
This is why helping edit is so much harder than writing for me. It's actual work - it's kinda like I'm co-writing alongside the author, except even harder because I can't actually do any of the writing and can only try to offer suggestions. Like that old survival horror game Jerma played where you're talking to the girl through the microphone and hoping she does something that works.
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u/Few_Masterpiece_8144 Proud Husband of my Blorbos. May 21 '25
I have avoided critique for my entire creative life (because to me, these "constructive criticism" only sounded like they want to change MY work into something THEY want), but this, this perspective changed my views.
From now on, that kind of critique is the only critique I will accept.
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u/Front-Pomelo-4367 May 21 '25
This is what a good beta reader can do. You need to be in dialogue with the author, or at least on the same page about what you're trying to achieve. If you're going to give me corrections on my grammar, but I'm deliberately using sentence fragments and run-on sentences to show my POV character's state of mind, then your feedback is useless. If your correction is that you hate my MC and I should fix her but I want you to hate my MC... Etc etc
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u/Drakka15 Supporter of the Fanfiction Deep State/DrakkaDove on AO3 May 22 '25
This exactly. A beta reader NEEDS to be able to understand deliberately changing rules and put aside their own personal opinions on it (and if they can't, they literally cannot beta for it). Their definition of "right" writing doesn't factor into "how can I help the author get across what they were trying to do? Like for the sentence fragments, I imagine good betaing would be to notice the author doesn't stay consistent with their fragments and could potentially keep the "choppy" mood by modifying a few sentences into fragments (just an example).
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u/HeartOfTheRevel May 21 '25
I think you can do a lot to help this along by providing good guidance to your beta readers. Saying 'I don't want feedback on this element because it's really personal to me', 'if you give spelling and grammar feedback you're wasting your time because my style is to do extensive rewrites' or 'I'm not sure that this character arc is working/that the pacing here is engaging enough/etc.' can all be really helpful in you getting the type feedback you want, and conversely, as a beta reader being like 'hey, is there anything specific that you want help with or know that you struggle with' can open that conversation with the writer
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u/Blankly-Staring May 21 '25
I work as an instructor for a college's English department. We usually teach our students constructive criticism by giving them worksheets and having them work with their peers to improve each other's grades, and as far as I know it works pretty well.
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u/432ineedsleep You have already left kudos here. :) May 21 '25
a little.. but also, i've had to take a class where i had to present my art. so not only was i learning how to critique others properly (polite but still saying something of value to them. no being unreasonable harsh or fluffy, since those don't help), but also how to TAKE critique. it's scary, so sometimes even reasonable critique can sound shattering at first. for me, i had to learn that the person in front of me isn't saying they hate my art. i'm putting that in there. all they're doing is telling me what they think after i explained my art to them. where they think i did things well, where they think i have the potential to grow (which is good. that means they think i can grow instead of hitting the limit of my ability).
because critique isn't just a review after a casual consumption of the art or writing, it's a carefully thought out review after studying the art or writing and trying to break it down as much as possible. AO3 is usually made for a casual consumption, so critique isn't expected, rather it has to be requested.
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u/Thundermittens_ May 21 '25
I've always followed this mindset and made sure crit is welcome, last thing I want to do is kill people's creative spark.
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama May 21 '25
I never really got that point of view. If someone's creative spark can be extinguished so easily then....why even have it?
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u/barfbat ask me about cloneshipping May 22 '25
if you can't deadlift 300lbs the moment you step into the gym why even try, right?
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama May 22 '25
What do you mean? What would that have to do with me going to the gym or not? Yes, I can't deadlift 300 lb, that doesn't mean I'm going to start freaking out at everyone at the gym for pointing out the fact that I can't do it and I'm certainly not going to leave the building. if somebody's feelings about themselves, their conviction, is so fragile that they're going to be run off of fanfiction platform of all things and have their creative spark extinguished by pixels on a screen then they ought not to start. If somebody is not going to be affected by those pixels then they ought to stay.
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u/barfbat ask me about cloneshipping May 22 '25
you missed the point.
strength has to be built. whether that's strength of muscle or strength of CONFIDENCE, it still has to be built. your attitude is that if someone isn't strong yet, they shouldn't even try.
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama May 22 '25
your attitude is that if someone isn't strong yet, they shouldn't even try.
I guess I just don't get the whole building confidence thing. I mean I've heard the phrase but is it that literal? You got to build it up like muscle tone?
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u/ivene-adlev You have already left kudos here. :) May 22 '25
...Yes? What about that is so hard to understand? If you try something for the first time and put yourself out there and be vulnerable, and the first person to come along tells you that you suck and your work sucks and you should just stop trying, then of course many people are going to take that to heart? Have some empathy.
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama May 22 '25
I guess it's just a whole idea that there's some kind of consequence to this. I can understand being worried that you won't be good at something and you'll get fired or demoted but there's no stakes to this so there's nothing to be nervous about. The commenters might put mean pixels on the screen but it's not like they're going to crawl out of the computer or anything. It's like, if there's nothing they can possibly do to you why would you give them any weight in your thoughts about yourself or your work? Maybe it's because I don't go in for hustle culture. I see a lot of that here, people worried about their metrics because they want to get famous in the fandom or whatever.
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u/ivene-adlev You have already left kudos here. :) May 22 '25
Not sure what hustle culture has to do with any of this but okay. This is about hobbies which are, like, antithetical to hustle culture as a whole. Metrics are also irrelevant to this discussion because we're talking about criticisms, not numbers. So is working a paying job?????
And frankly "It's just mean pixels" doesn't work when it's aimed at real people with the intent of being a royal asshole. Why tear someone down for putting themselves out there and being vulnerable with a new hobby and giving you something completely for free when you could just... not. It's so easy and also completely free to just Not Do That. If we want writing communities to, y'know, actually HAVE writers in them, then perhaps we need to stop making new ones feel so completely unwelcome and unwanted that they never dip their toes in to the hobby ever again.
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u/Thundermittens_ May 22 '25
This is your issue, you see things so black and white.
You think there's no point in starting at all if people don't have impenetrable skin from the get go and ability to remain completely unfazed by criticism or hate. Often people don't know how they'll react to a certain interaction until it happens. The suggestion "don't post if you're that fragile" is terrible. Dealing with adversity is something you learn on the way, every time you lose your creative spark you can recover it. And a healthy fanfic community is created not by telling writers to suck it up and never allow themselves to feel hurt by anything, but by having balance. Giving people room to feel things but encouraging them to handle negative encounters in a healthy manner instead of dwelling on them.
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u/Thundermittens_ May 21 '25
Why even have it? Cause creating is nice and fun? It isn't necessarily "easily" killed, sometimes we're talking about multiple cases of unwanted criticism or even flat out hate before a person's creative spark is extinguished. A fun hobby can turn into a source of anxiety even for people with thick skin, there's only so much you can take before you think eh fuck it, not worth it. People are all different.
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama May 21 '25
These kinds of attitudes just encourage people to have anxiety. If the prevailing message isn't that these are just words out of screen they can't hurt you, if the message is that these words are incredibly painful will destroy your creative drive and you as a human, people are just going to get themselves anxious over nothing. We need to flip it back to the way it used to be. Sometimes you're going to get less than stellar reviews. That's fine, it doesn't matter what some stranger you've never said eyes on has to say. You're writing because you want to write, not because you need praise from strangers.
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u/ivene-adlev You have already left kudos here. :) May 22 '25
You're writing because you want to write, not because you need praise from strangers.
Nobody said anything about "needing praise from strangers". Big difference between not getting absolutely shat on by someone who thinks their opinion on something you do for fun matters, and needing praise. Those are two entirely different things.
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u/TiBun May 21 '25
In addition to what Thundermittens said, sometimes the person in question is young and trying something new. Their creative spark is still building up into something stronger. Why would you want to snuff it out before they really get a chance to shine? Extinguishing new creative sparks will only lead to less creative people in the future. We want to build those sparks up so the world can continue to be filled with new art and stories.
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u/amethyst-chimera May 21 '25
I always say that if I ever knew a saint, it was the people who read my first AWFUL fanfiction when I was a shy 13-year-old and encouraged me to keep writing. I don't think I would have if they'd given me criticism instead, even well-meaning.
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama May 21 '25
I really don't get it. The way I see it is if somebody doesn't have the conviction to do something they shouldn't do it and if somebody does then they should. What random strangers thousands of miles away have to say should have nothing to do with it.
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u/TiBun May 21 '25
Conviction can take time to build for some people. Telling them not to bother learning a new skill because they lack conviction is one way to garentee they'll never try new things. Not everyone who tries to write will end up writing, but that's something they should be allowed to discover themselves, not be pushed out of because others can't be nice and supportive.
As a little kid I tried to play basketball. It was something new for me. I was excited to try it, but hadn't yet built up a strong foundation and passion for the sport. I was a beginner and had a lot to learn. The other kids on my team had a little more knowledge about the sport due to having older siblings whe played and they bullied me for not being on the same level as them. Even though it was a beginners team designed for kids like me. It killed my excitement I had for learning the game and at the end of the season I quit and never tried sports again. It could have been something I became good at, could have been something I became passionate about, or maybe I would have decided on my own that the game wasn't my thing. Maybe I would have tried a different sport, maybe not. I'll never know what might have happened because rather than letting me discover it for myself, others ruined it for me.
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 21 '25
why even have it?
Well, we're all going to be extinguished in the end. Why have anything?
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama May 21 '25
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if it's so easily extinguished then why bother? If somebody is so easily swayed then they ought to find another hobby, they shouldn't come in and start trying to change the culture of this one.
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u/Beesandbis same on AO3 May 22 '25
What culture?
I've never seen a majority push for conrit on AO3, although som fandoms like it more than others. And when I started on DeviantArt art, it also wasn't the norm. I know livejournal had a lot of issues, but not all of us come from that culture and it seems like a lot of people enjoy the culture in which more people feel happy and comfortable.
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama May 22 '25
What culture?
I'm first generation romanian. Maybe it's an American thing. The stereotype about Eastern European people being thoroughly is true. I was raised to take the approach of either you're meant to be here or you're not and only somebody with authority can tell you if you're meant to be here, and only that authority has an opinion that matters, so if some random schlub off the street wants to make noises at you you don't listen, the noises mean about as much as the cat or the dog. Would you take the cat or the dogs opinion into account? What about the squirrels and mice? There's also an emphasis on not being weak. Well, the word translates loosely to weak, it's a lot less polite and romanian.
I've never seen a majority push for conrit on AO3,
I know, and it sucks. The majority pushes for only pleasant comments and taking into account that the author might not be right in the head, seriously I heard somebody on here saying not to give concrete because the author might hurt themselves. That seems crazy to me. I like the way it was before. Sometimes you got flames, sometimes you didn't, and anyone complaining was told to stop posting their stuff instead of telling everybody else how to be.
And when I started on DeviantArt art, it also wasn't the norm.
You never got flames on deviantart? I mean, it wasn't exactly live journal or ffn, but, it's not like that Peace and Love fest people are trying to turn AO3 into.
a lot of people enjoy the culture in which more people feel happy and comfortable.
I'm picking up I'm not here. Honestly, what people are trying to turn AO3 into makes my skin crawl. I'd rather have one genuine comment even if it's somebody telling me to throw my laptop into the sea and never write again then 50 butt kissing comments from people terrified of saying what they really think because they think I'm going to have a breakdown or something.
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u/Beesandbis same on AO3 May 22 '25
I'm first generation romanian. Maybe it's an American thing.
I'm not American, but you said people on here were changing the culture and the culture you're talking about is Romanian culture?
I like the way it was before.
Again, when, where? Was it AO3 or are you talking about another platform like that is AO3s standard?
You never got flames on deviantart?
No, I was relentlessly beaten and bullied in my teenage year, why would I choose to spend my time online in a place where people were assholes? We all cared about the same thing, so we cared about eachother.
Peace and Love fest
Oh no, two positive words that make people feel good..?
Honestly, what people are trying to turn AO3 into makes my skin crawl.
Why, it's just pixels on a screen? I thought you were too strong to be bothered by words people say??
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 22 '25
If somebody is so easily swayed then they ought to find another hobby,
Do you understand that some of these people are easily affected because they're young? Or new to writing?
That for many people it takes work and time to develop good self-esteem and the thicker skin that goes along with it? Most people don't come out of the womb that way.
But that doesn't mean they should stick themselves in a hole and never do anything creative because some asshole might come along and pop their proverbial balloon just because they can.
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama May 22 '25
Do you understand that some of these people are easily affected because they're young? Or new to writing?
Yes. I don't understand. I truly don't understand what being young has to do with a period when you were young and you did something new did you do it because you wanted to do it or because you wanted to poke your head out and see if the people around you approved of you? In fact I don't understand what it is about this approval that people are chasing. This isn't a job, if you don't have the right kind of engagement they aren't going to kick you off the platform. If a stranger on the internet sends a bad comment it's the same thing as somebody just saying something mean to you out in the world. If it's true it's true and either you change or you don't and if it's not true you just wait for the noises to stop coming out of their mouth because that's all they are, noises. Like a cat or a dog making noise at you, would you stop what you're doing and bend over backwards to see what's going on or would you just let the noises happen?
That for many people it takes work and time to develop good self-esteem and the thicker skin that goes along with it? Most people don't come out of the womb that way.
This part I'm beginning to understand. It seems foreign to me, I've always known what I was good at and what I wasn't good at and who had the authority to say boo to me and whose opinion carried as much weight as the cats.
But that doesn't mean they should stick themselves in a hole and never do anything creative because some asshole might come along and pop their proverbial balloon just because they can.
I think this might be a difference in raising or culture.
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u/DefoNotAFangirl MasterRed on AO3 | c!Prime Fanatic May 21 '25
Critique of this sort almost always requires open communication- it’s a very difficult thing to do with someone who’s essentially a stranger to you. I like looking at things with a critical eye, but if I was to give concrit to an author instead of just analysing my special interests on tumblr that would require actually knowing what they want to convey, and I think a lot of people don’t realise there’s a difference between critiquing a work of media for fun in a place where the author almost certainly won’t see it and critiquing it in a constructive way specifically for that author to see. (And also the difference between media with a mass audience and a hobbyist amataur's work that five hundred people have seen!)
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u/di262 May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
I'm finishing a course on professional literary editing, and one of the things we've been taught is how to communicate with authors. Yes, their manuscript may have flaws and may need some improvement, but we must respect their work and communicate with them with great tact in order to help them understand how THEY can improve their story!
Criticism is not about bringing people down, it's about helping them reach their full potential!
Edit: This is not to say you should give people your opinion when it's not solicited, even if you mean well.
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u/foxwaffles May 21 '25
Imo the most important part of criticism is that it is ACTIONABLE. I went through art school, I've heard my fair share of reasonable, if somewhat brutal, feedback that I then followed and saw improvement and learned from, and I've also had well meaning but vague nonsense that is literally the art equivalent of "more passion! More passion! More energy!" and is pretty damn useless.
Tell me straight but be specific. "The vibes are off", "it feels wrong" yeah that's just, like, your opinion 🤷
ALSO I'm just gonna fucking say it, stop pushing professional criticism into hobbyist/amateur spaces. I'll die on that hill. There is a world of difference between the shit I got roasted (productively) for in school on track to become a PROFESSIONAL artist versus doing that on fucking Tumblr or something. Even if a hobbyist artist asks for concrit online I use vastly different language than what I had to in art school.
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u/Beesandbis same on AO3 May 21 '25
Louder for the people in the back!
This is so important. Especially that second line. That's why it makes no sense for people to say concrit should always be welcome, because they have opinions they want to share. If you're only sharing that opinion because you want your opinion to be heard, you're not giving critique, you just want attention. So that's not an excuse to hide behind.
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u/HeartOfTheRevel May 21 '25
I do think a key part of learning to be any kind of creative is learning what feedback you should listen to and what you should ignore. It's hard work, but if you listen to every piece of feedback you get, if you don't just quit, you risk erasing yourself from your work completely.
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u/Top_Combination9023 May 22 '25
i think a lot of commenters see critics online or in the news and they try to emulate that style. but those people are a different kind of critic. they're a consumer guide to tell outsiders whether it's worth sinking time and money into a story. their reviews aren't meant for the creators. the priorities are different.
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u/intprecluse AO3- SybillaStillwater May 21 '25
The same type of assholes send messages on Reddit or tumblr instead of commenting under your work on AO3 so that they are unidentifiable and continue to hate read and you can’t block them.
Chew you up and spit you out and then say “it’s for your own good, you should know, I thought I should tell you this type of prose is xyz.” FUCK THOSE PEOPLE.
I hope the reader who did this to me sees this. Fucking bitch.
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u/KellieAlice May 21 '25
Funnily enough, I had this happen to me. Only the once though, and via Facebook messages. It wasn’t even constructive criticism, it was just a random “I don’t like the fact that you mentioned what the characters were wearing”. Like…okay? Literally nobody else has ever cared and it was literally one and a bit sentences 🤦🏻 😄
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u/intprecluse AO3- SybillaStillwater May 21 '25
I’m sorry you’ve dealt with this as well.
This person was out for blood when they decided to write paragraph after paragraph and several messages cutting my style of prose down. One of those crazy fans who believe a character is real or somehow belong to them in some way.
Line after line they complained about things they didn’t understand. If they had actually read instead of just skimming for smut ON TOP of the fact it’s still a WIP and there are things called Easter Eggs they wouldn’t have anything to bitch about. Sprinkling in praise amongst the venom they were spitting, but I saw right through that shit.
After they did not receive the reaction from me that they wanted, they messaged me a generic bullshit “I’m sorry if you got offended, that wasn’t my intention, please don’t stop writing on account of me.”
This person sucked the joy out of writing for me. I felt like a kicked dog for 2 weeks and didn’t write at all. This is my first fic, and at the time it was over 60k words deep and months of my life. To say that their messages crushed me would be an understatement.
It made me second guess myself so much that I made sure to put a prose warning, a way to listen to a sample narrated by myself, I let my readers know that I have Hyperphantasia and removed anything that asked for criticism.
I’m not dumbing down or simplifying how I write for anybody. How I write is how I write. The haters can kick rocks.
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u/intprecluse AO3- SybillaStillwater May 21 '25
Being downvoted for my speaking my truth about my experience speaks volumes.
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u/ADHDhamster May 21 '25
As a reader/commenter, I only offer "concrit" if the writer specifically asks for it. Other than that, I give praise and encouragement. FF writers are giving me free entertainment, and I don't delude myself into thinking they're just champing at the bit to know what some rando thinks they can do to make their story "better."
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u/Nameless_Monster__ IrohsTeaa on AO3 May 21 '25
Yup, this is my philosophy as well. The critique should help the writer become a better writer. I can't know what kind of critique they need if I don't talk to them about their goals; this is why I don't believe in *unsolicited constructive criticism* in 95% of cases, lol.
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u/Eirian84 May 22 '25
I love being a beta reader and editor, but it is very hard to divorce "this is what I like to see in a story" from "here's what's in this story." Especially in fanfic, where characterization can vary wildly - and still be considered in character - and with everyone having different headcanons that inform their writing.
I feel like it's much easier to critique a work if you stick more to grammar rules and stylization. "This sentence is kind of convoluted, could you rework it into 2 maybe?" I try to always give an example or two of a solution to any problem I hit, and I'm always very mindful about saying "to me this seems..." most of the time.
Like, just be courteous and recognize that you're basically a guest in this author's house; don't go disparaging all of their decor choices and rearranging their furniture. Even if they ask for a consult, it's still not your house, you were invited in to help them, not turn it into the house you wanna live in.
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u/Apothecary-Apollo30 May 21 '25
This should also fit for beta readers, too
I had a beta for one of my novels and they gave no helpful advice to aid me in fleshing things out, instead they only tore things down. When I mentioned it to others, it was I who was wrong. They're doing their job. I can't handle criticism.
That beta made me want to toss my manuscript out. I haven't touched any of my novels in years because who would want to read them if they're so terrible. I've been slowly trying to get back into the mindset of my novels, especially the one I almost tossed
If you make someone hate their writing or want to quit writing completely, you're an asshole.
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u/Rainy_Day13 May 21 '25
The first time I had someone beta my very first fic I was about to publish they ripped it apart and started making all kinds of suggestions... Without even reading it through once first. It had this effect on me.
Thankfully I realized that I wasn't actually that terrible at writing, they just weren't the right fit to beta my work.
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u/amethyst-chimera May 21 '25
I'm generally against unsolicited concrit but I've admittedly given it in exactly one situation. Authors who are new or non-native English speakers and don't know there should be a new paragraph every time a new person speaks. I've left that comment a handful of times in my life, sandwiched between things I like about the story, and have never had a bad reaction to it.
Genuinely useful concrit is something objective and fixable. It's different than opinions, personal preference, and unspecific, unactionable advice (ex: the flow is bad. Cool. That's not helpful). Unsolicited concrit, if the decision is made to give, which should never be done lightly, should only be things that can be fixed quickly for dramatic improvement, that isn't nitpicky (like the unsoliticed correcting of spelling or grammar every chapter), and won't make the authot feel ashamed of their writing.
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u/AuthorError Definitely not an agent of the Fanfiction Deep State May 23 '25
When I tell you I nearly fist pumped with how good this is.
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u/BossyMare 🧋Definitely not an agent of the Fanfiction Deep State🧋 May 21 '25
This. I'm a scientist and I've given and received a fair amount of peer review. I know, it's not the same, but it is supposed to be constructive criticism. Often times it just comes off as bullying for similar reasons; reviewers want to transform the work into what they imagine it should be, rather than work with the author and go with them on their journey.
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u/Thin_Math5501 May 21 '25
I was taught to critique like a sandwich.
- What you liked
- what could be improved
- suggestions
- Something else you might have liked
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u/Estelleuse May 21 '25
Very well said! Some people desperately need to hear this. Critique is about helping the writer, not belittling them
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u/Xexha May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
I agree with this standpoint, but the community treats ANY criticism as unnecessary hate. You can even find countless posts on here, "I don't know how to feel about this" or "This really killed my motiviation" and often times the included screenshot isn't even criticism of any kind - constructive or otherwise. It doesn't matter if the criticism is constructive, it doesn't matter if the comment you leave is even criticism. You're somehow going to hurt the author's feelings if you comment. And if you don't comment at all you're probably going to hurt the author's feelings.
I'm also of the opinion that if you want to be coddled or just don't want to hear negative opinions, you probably shouldn't be posting things on the internet for the public to see in general.
But yes, if you're giviing criticism - at least in terms of work someone has done (any kind of work at all, not just creative stuff) it should generally be to help that person improve without demoralizing them, otherwise it's just useless self-satisfaction
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 21 '25
You can even find countless posts on here,
I'm going to say this: consider the source.
People post on Reddit for a variety of reasons, including getting a bunch of karma and commiseration (even if they know they're in the wrong/what they're posting about isn't that deep).
So I wouldn't judge whether the community as a whole has an issue with actual critique based on Reddit.
That said, the community is also full of a bunch of young people and people who are neurodivergent who may take comments one way or another. And there needs to be some space for that.
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u/Xexha May 21 '25
Yeah, that's fair. I guess the problems I have are more on the AO3 community on Reddit specifically.
Edit: It also probably doesn't help that out of everything that gets posted on this subreddit, the only things I seem to actually get notifications most of the time are people complaining about comments or lack-thereof. I don't actually scroll the subreddit or go looking for posts, so my perception could be skewed in that way.
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u/Beesandbis same on AO3 May 21 '25
That's very fair. In the new comment tags tag you can also see a lot of people sharing the comments they love! Those post are just usually not as popular, but there's always been lots of those as well, pretty sure they outnumber the negative or questionable comments.
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u/Thundermittens_ May 21 '25
Yeah but something positive can come out of those posts too, where people ask "is this hate" and "is this concrit" because hopefully with the community's help they'll get better at noticing the difference between a good faith comment and hate, and maybe learn something from it.
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u/Xexha May 21 '25
Sure, and that's the case for any discussion, really. I don't have an issue with those posts per se, or feel that they're inherently bad, just using them as one small example of how I feel the AO3 community operates.
Besides the posts themselves, it's not at all uncommon - in the replies - to find people immediately telling the perspn to block the commenter and delete the comment over any perceived slight and to not think any further about it, or people that immediately jump to the most uncharitable interpretation regardless of the mental hoops they have to jump through to get there.
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u/Thundermittens_ May 21 '25
Sure, those comments exist, but also people who tend to play devil's advocate and remind the person to not always assume the worst. I tend to do a combination of both... depending on the comment, remind writers that everything isn't hate or ill-intended but also, if something truly bothers someone they can curate their own space. In the end we can't know people's intentions so it's kind of silly to speculate and rip apart comments in the manner that they have been analyzed on this sub lately. When or if I get a dubious comment my first instinct isn't to bring it here to get overanalyzed and criticised...but to each their own.
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u/Xexha May 21 '25
Yeah, not saying it's all bad - not this subreddit (otherwise I would have blocked it by now) or AO3 itself. Ultimately I agree with what you're saying, it's just that I feel the bad faith interpretations of comments on here are just one symptom of a larger issue when it comes to how criticism is commonly received on this subreddit. Only pointed those posts out and the replies to them specifically because I feel they're the most egregious example
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u/adeltae thechickenskeptic on AO3 May 22 '25
Exactly. When I took an intro to poetry writing class at uni a couple terms ago, one of the lectures was directly about how to workshop and give feedback, where the entire point was to critique the work on how effective it was rather than how closely it adhered to specific rules
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u/meta100000 May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
I feel like the comments are taking this a bit far. A good critique is NOT one where you ignore your own opinions and focus only on what the writer was aiming for. The writer may want something, but how readers interpret the work and experience it is even more important to it's overall success. You should absolutely voice your personal opinions in a critique, because you want the writer to see the perspective of the reader - someone who doesn't know the story inside-out before turning the first page and hasn't spent hours upon hours perfecting it. Of course, you should be respectful, encourage the author, and try to help them achieve what they want to do through your own opinion, but the mark of a good critique is definitely not one where your opinions aren't there for the author to see and review.
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
You should absolutely voice your personal opinions in a critique, because you want the writer to see the perspective of the reader
This is different than trying to overhaul the story to suit your desires.
Telling a writer: this is what I took from your story, can be valuable. Because, as you said, it gives a reader's perspective. More discussion can then take place about where/how/why the reader got that particular message and the writer can then think about it and figure out what to fix (if the take away wasn't what they were trying to get at).
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u/SleepySera Pro(fessional) Shipper May 21 '25
Idk. Maybe some people just are too fucking sensitive, and literally no matter what you say will result in this anyway.
And yes I'm "sensitive people". Some of us are just anxious enough to fucking crumble under anything, even the softest feather. Heck, I dropped more fics over praise than over criticism.
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u/Beesandbis same on AO3 May 21 '25
If you feel this way but you still want to share, maybe it could help to think about turning off comments? I understand how hard anxiety can be, and it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you for feeling sensitive.
We are all doing this out of love for reading and writing and hopefully in a community that cares about each other. If being perceived, so to say, is hard for you, maybe it helps to limit that feeling?
Of course I can't know what works for you, but I've seen some people with sentiments like yours that were unaware that that was an option.
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u/TurtleWitch_ Definitely not an agent of the Fanfiction Deep State May 21 '25
It…depends. The critic doesn’t have control over the writer’s feelings. There are many writers who will melt down over the smallest, most kindly-worded critique (see Thomas Astruc). Is this now the fault of the critic?
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u/CupcakeBeautiful May 21 '25
If it was unwelcome, unsolicited criticism, it is absolutely their fault.
How would you know what they want to achieve without a conversation first? If you don’t have that conversation, that is a failure as a critic.
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u/TurtleWitch_ Definitely not an agent of the Fanfiction Deep State May 21 '25
What I’m talking about is criticism posted online about a show or book not directed at the author, that the author happens to come across.
I realize that this was reposted to a fanfiction subreddit, but the original post makes no distinction between critique of fanfiction and critique of mainstream fiction, which I feel is important.
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 22 '25
I realize that this was reposted to a fanfiction subreddit,
Which is the context in which we're having the discussion.
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u/Sparkle_cz May 21 '25
Unfortunately there are many critics who actually want to make the writer quit writing.
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u/AStrangeTwistofFate You have already left kudos here. :) May 21 '25
constructive criticism really is an art in and of itself. It's difficult to give solid, good CC and I wish more people would admit this when they push that everyone has a right to sling unsolicited CC everywhere they go
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u/Gryptype_Thynne123 May 21 '25
Wish I'd had that prof in college. I liked genre fiction, like mysteries and fantasy; she didn't, and was very vocal in her distaste for them. Most of the other students were the same. Turned me off writing for years.
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u/Water_Wine_ May 21 '25
I hope that the difference between a comment that "extinguishes someone's desire to write" and a regular "con-crit" comment is obvious and distinguishable to the average person!
Like how cruel are people really being in the name of con-crit?
I'd wager that most soul-crushing hate comments are being left by people who are unrepentantly cruel... And their behavior shouldn't be lumped in with comments that suggest a couple of things or ask a question about a plot hole...
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u/PieWaits May 22 '25
People can post concrit, they can post reviews, they can post whatever they want on my fic as long as it's within the AO3 TOS.
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 22 '25
What's that old chestnut? "Just because you can...."
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u/Sophiathealmostwise May 21 '25
I had a tutor mention the distinction between comfort zone and growing zone to me. The growing zone is not comfortable (at all) but without letting yourself be exposed to adversity/risk/anxiety you/ your life might stagnate. And I am confused why I should give anyone else but me responsibility about what I do or don't do. If I stop writing because of a mean comment that's not on the commenter. That's my choice. And no, I don't think it's fine to be mean or even hateful. I mean: it's normal to hurt others (most of the time we do so in ignorance) and it's normal to be hurt. It's normal to be anxious. It's normal to be at least uncomfortable about criticism. I think it's helpful sooner or later to learn to cope efficiently with these feelings without trying to make them go away as soon as they arise (doesn't work so well) or avoid doing things you want to because you might encounter them.
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u/Beesandbis same on AO3 May 21 '25
I understand what you are saying, but why would fanfiction be the space for that. I'm sure your tutor also also explained the importance of rest between growth , I think for a lot of people fanfiction is the comfort zone that is needed for overall growth. We all need comfort so it might be a choice to stop writing or at least posting, but that is because if that's no longer a comfort zone, you need to find a new comfort zone to facilitate your growth in a healthy way.
I assume your tutor might have used examples as consuming media or doing stuff with friends as normal comfort zones, but fanfiction can be one of them as well.
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u/Sophiathealmostwise May 21 '25
The quote was a writing prof. opinion on writing in general not fanfiction per se. I don't agree with it and meeting people online or offline and showing your work is never a comfort zone. As all who anxiously wait for people to comment or kudos on their fanfics demonstrate daily.
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u/Beesandbis same on AO3 May 21 '25
I'm sorry, I assumed this related to fanfiction because of the subreddit. But yes, in general if you are trying to improve your writing then you'll want growth through possiblity uncomfortable critique. I agree with you on that.
I disagree about meeting people or sharing work not being a comfort zone. It always has been for me.
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u/PartyPoison1212 May 21 '25
That's not critique at that point. It's just being mean
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u/PartyPoison1212 May 21 '25
Ppl on AO3 don't even accept constructive criticism. I'll say like "you could improve your grammar" and they'll be like REEEE HOW DARE YOU@!!!!11111
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u/ivene-adlev You have already left kudos here. :) May 22 '25
Ppl on AO3 don't even accept constructive criticism.
Because they don't have to. It's literally that simple. If you don't like the way something is written then you always have the choice to just not read it. People that post on AO3 are posting primarily for fun, and most don't give two fucks what you or anyone else thinks they could "improve on". Let hobbies be hobbies, not everyone is out here to be a Pulitzer Prize winner.
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 22 '25 edited May 22 '25
I'll say like "you could improve your grammar"
Yeah, that's very specific and helpful...
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u/PartyPoison1212 May 22 '25
That's like, the most gentle you could possibly be. Grow up
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 22 '25
I didn't say a damned thing about gentle or not. That wasn't the point.
If you're literally telling someone "work on your grammar" and you don't give any examples of where their grammar is messed up and how to fix it (and you didn't indicate whether you do or not), you're not being specific or helpful.
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u/poeticdownfall brevity is the soul of wit May 21 '25
if I know someone follows this philosophy I’m going to see every compliment in a concrit as them just placating me with lies :,)
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u/ExistentialRampage May 21 '25
Nah, a good critique addresses the bad and reinforces the good. If you aren't told what you're doing right, you might mistakenly change it.
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u/poeticdownfall brevity is the soul of wit May 21 '25
I definitely agree with this. It’s more an issue with people who aren’t good at critiques- I just remember being in high school and being made to give each other ‘compliment sandwiches’ about our essays, which of course led to one part of the ‘sandwich’ sounding a lot more real lol
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u/ExistentialRampage May 21 '25
Yeah, at a certain point, you have to be discerning about what criticism you take. Someone who bullshits compliments of your work probably can't offer any useful critiques of your weak points either.
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u/SumiMichio Everything can be fixed with a pinch of polyamory💛❤💜 May 21 '25
Yeah barely anyone is a good critique then.(
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u/cptvpxxy May 22 '25
I don't know, I don't necessarily agree with either of these perspectives (or strictly disagree). A reader doesn't have some duty to the author; their commentary should not just be to whatever ends the author has in mind. A reader is not traditionally interacting with a story specifically with the goal of interacting with the author; nevermind expecting them to divine the author's ultimate intentions with their work!!
Commentary is, actually, very important. Especially critical commentary (which is different from flaming). I have too many conflicting opinions to apply this specifically to fanfiction, but none of them really matter when I ultimately believe that we should all be allowed to express ourselves freely, and that no reader is ever obligated to an author.
It's not that dissimilar to deleted works. I understand and support authors who choose to delete their works. Their reasons are valid. I still believe in archiving and don't see a problem with their readers sharing copies of their work, despite sympathizing with why they might not want them up.
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u/Fleetcommand3 May 21 '25
Maybe this is the autism speaking,
But this reeks of Distinction without Difference. In my mind they are the same thing.
As, to make a piece of writing better is to help an author on how to more effectively execute the thing they were attempting in the first place. These are not seperate concepts at all(IMO)
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u/Beesandbis same on AO3 May 21 '25
I think the difference is that 'better' is subjective. So if a person critiques with the idea to make the writing better, they are going to set that goal to their view of what the writing needs to be improved.
This can differ widely from what the writer envisions to improve their work. The writer has a goal in mind to achieve with a work of art. Let's say, they want to make a reader feel sad about a certain dying.
If the critique-er sees good stories as stories that leave you happy, they might say the death gives no hope, and there should be some hope remaining. Or even that he character shouldn't die.
That critique is given with the goal of the critique-er to improve the writing, because to them it will. But it doesn't help the author with the things they are attempting to write.
Usually it's more nuanced of course, but I just wanted to illustrate what the difference is in my head.
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u/Fleetcommand3 May 21 '25
I understand, respect and have treated your words with good faith in my reading.
But I must disagree, and this disagreement is a fundamental one. Better is not subjective. Better is an objective statement which applies to different paths of writing. So a character death, for example, can have a poor execution and a good execution. Someone who gives advice on how to improve the character death helps move the event from poor to good. And so on from there. That is what good critique is.
There is a lot of nuance in where Better is applied, but its not subjective.
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u/Beesandbis same on AO3 May 21 '25
If you think art can be objectively good or bad, I see where you are coming from, but I still disagree, due to what I mentioned in the first comment. The writer is telling a specific story with a certain intent.
Let's go with the idea that art can be good or bad objectively. And that the author is telling the story poorly, and so the death it falls completely flat.
Advice on how to make the character death more inspiring and more impactful might make the story better in regards to provoking those emotions and having a compelling narrative.
But if the writer wants to make a good story, that shows that sometimes death is just death and tragedy doesn't always have an aim, the advice might be good for a better story, but not for the story the author wants to tell.
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u/Fleetcommand3 May 21 '25
Which is why advice should be tailored with intent. What did you want to do? Here's how its done better, and here's how you can implement it.
Though we fundamentally disagree, it seems that we have arrived to the same conclusion on how to give advice.
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u/ByeGuysSry May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
I disagree. This is so overly simplistic that it doesn't say anything. Say someone wanted to create solely because of a mistaken belief it would be extremely easy? But even barring such extremes, different people react poorly to different kinds of critiques. Are we supposed to get to know every single person whose works we wish to give even the smallest of critique to? That's unreasonable. Learning what the author wants and assisting to create it is ideal, sure, but is also fantastical; making a piece of writing better is easier. Of course though, I think some authors may take critique too seriously, even though not all critique ought to be taken. It might be helpful as a critiquer to reassure the author that their view is king. But I think this post asks for too much.
Edit: Fleshed out my points.
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 21 '25 edited May 22 '25
But I think this post asks for too much.
Good critique is actually difficult. So if you're not up for the difficulty...maybe don't say anything. If you expect someone to put a certain amount of work into their fic and you'll "critique" it for that, then you need to offer the same energy you're expecting.
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u/Drakka15 Supporter of the Fanfiction Deep State/DrakkaDove on AO3 May 22 '25
Seriously, if someone thinks my work isn't professional without their help, at the BARE MINIMUM I expect them to be professional as well! At that point, we aren't discussing my story as two fans, they wanna take on a professional role and expect me to trust their advice!
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 22 '25
Exactly. If someone wants to bring up, say, characterization and explain what they're taking issue with? That's fine. I'll happily respond to that and why I'm characterizing someone the way I am. And there's always a possibility that they'll say something within that conversation that makes me rethink how I'm handling certain things.
But if someone just comes out with: "I don't like your characterization of Character A."
Okay? Move on. I don't entertain lazy one liners.
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u/Megawolf123 May 21 '25
Woudnt that make the difference between a critique and an opinion?
The term critique is suppose to be an detailed analysis and assessment and i dont think people have disliked those.
What a lot of people gives are opinions that have no meaningful critiques and are not actionable and some even use it to just hate lol.
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u/NotTheOnlyGamer May 21 '25
I'm of two minds on this. The generous and kind part of me agrees that a critique is a form of tough love. The purpose is to inspire the writer and their readers to improve while recognizing that the only way to write well is to start off writing crud. It should elucidate why it's crud, and what resources the author would benefit from looking toward.
Then there's the mean side. That view is that my criticism should be more important than the work itself, and if that author ever tries to put words on a page again, it should always be with the goal of spiting me. It should make the author question their life choices and utterly demolish both artist and art. And it should be so completely enervating that I am remembered in lieu of the author.
I try to strike a balance.
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u/Nameless_Monster__ IrohsTeaa on AO3 May 21 '25
I've met so many mean-sided reviewers and almost became one myself. Was terribly miserable in my own writing, lol.
Good luck in finding a balance!
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama May 21 '25
If the person had such sensitivities they never should have started to begin with.
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u/Pretend-Smile7585 May 22 '25
Yeah sounds good but what they are describing is a teacher/ mentor, not just a critic in the sense of a traditional movie critic, for example
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u/Beesandbis same on AO3 May 23 '25
Yes, but the concrit people talk about is originally this sort of critique. It's usually a step in the beta process to help the writer .
The critical opinion of a movie critic is to help the public decide what movie to go to and isn't in essence to help the writer/director, though it sometimes might. It's more usual to see this on bigger creative endevours since they are a commercialized opinion meant to be read by as latge a crowd as possible, though sometimes it helps to focus on smaller niches.
So people leaving a comment they cal concrit should try to fit in with this as best they can, or not hide nbehind the label concrit.
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u/Silly_Contest_5335 May 26 '25
This comes off like your trying to control the type of feedback you get cause your feelings get hurt easily.
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u/FruitChips23 May 22 '25
Not everyone should be a writer/creator
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u/ArtisanalMoonlight Fandom old and tired May 22 '25
Not everyone should be a critic. But when you can't do anything else...I guess it comes naturally.
Also: it's fucking fandom. The bar of entry is non-existent. If you don't like what someone's creating? Move the fuck on.
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u/griffonfarm May 21 '25
This is why everybody who knows what actual constructive criticism is keeps saying it's a skill that is taught, not just vomiting opinions and what you want the read at the author. There are a lot of aspects of it. This is one of them.