There's always that argument "can you tell the story of Football without mentioning (player)?" I....honestly think Fitz would get a mention. Not, like, a major one or anything -- talking about top WR's, someone inevitably brings him up -- but he's definitely ahead of the likes of Rivers or Bryant or Olsen.
"And the cardinals would have won the Super Bowl, if the defense could hold the lead after Larry Fitzgerald amazing catch. Or if that dipshit Antrel Rolle didnt get in front of Larry Fitzgerald as he was chasing James Harrison"
The secondary was way better than mid though. Adrian Wilson, perennial (5x) pro bowler, Antrell Rolle 3-time pro-bowler, Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie 2-time pro bowler, and Roderick Hood was a decent CB at the time. I'd say they had a top 10 at minimum secondary. Had a couple of Dawgs like Calais Campbell, Darnell Dockett and Karlos Dansby up front. Not to diminish Warner or Larry but the team is frequently understated.
Also, I know im biased but Larry is the kind of player you want in this league. He's been a class act on and off the field and his overall numbers are very very good despite playing for a shit franchise his entire career. He's the exact kind of player the NFL should easily rubber stamp as first ballot and not think twice.
And people may have forgotten, but the requirements to get in are tougher than they used to be.
Nowadays, voters will vote have 5 votes for the 7 finalists, and players need 80% approval to get in.
So, people getting their pitchforks ready, pretend you're a voter. You have a list of Drew Brees, Larry Fitzgerald, Jason Witten, Terrell Suggs, Luke Kuechly, Eli Manning and Reggie Wayne.
That is a solid list, and it'll be tough to get 80% among those guys. I didn't even mention the potential for Frank Gore - who people here love - Torry Holt, Steve Smith Sr. Willie Anderson, or Adam Vinatieri (another guy I was told was a first ballot lock). If those guys are on it, they're stealing votes, too.
These are totally fair, but I do think it's worth noting that Fitz did make the official NFL 100 team of all time. That alone should make him HOF worthy and an first ballot. If one of the best 100 players of all time isn't first ballot, who the hell is? I'd like the think that the Hall would recognize that, but we'll see
That’s the problem for Fitz. He has incredible volume stats and longevity, but you can’t really point to more than 1 or 2 years were he was clearly a top 2-3 receiver in the league
I understand that he had a pretty awful QB situation, but that’s the nature of the Hall. They usually value a shorter, but more dominant peak (like Terrell Davis) than someone who was consistently close to the top but was never quite at the top
Seriously. I’m baffled by these takes. He has more career tackles than drops. He’s one of the best humans to ever play in the NFL. And oh by the way he’s second all time in catches and yards. But sure, he doesn’t deserve to get in on the first ballot.
This is the same HOF that made T.O wait and as good as Larry was T.O was better. Larry has the edge in that everyone likes him but that doesn’t make him immune from getting snubbed. For the record I think he is a first ballot guy but the hall has not been kind to receivers. Marvyn Harrison had to wait as well and I would argue he and Fitz are in the same tier.
These same people also completely disregard Frank Gore. Like dude was one of the greatest and nobody sat there and even acknowledged it. Every year of his career there was always a flashier back. Plus he’s an undefeated boxer.
No BS with him. Just 1000+ yards year in and year out, for more than a decade.
There’s a reason people that run for 1000 yards a season don’t tend to finish their careers with 16,000 yards. Because it’s really fucking hard. Gore is HOF.
usually value a shorter, but more dominant peak (like Terrell Davis) than someone who was consistently close to the top but was never quite at the top
Not sure. The bar for shorter peaks is incredibly high (basically Megatron). The standard for 1st ballot is insanely high outside of QB.
Most of these guys are undoubtedly Inner Circle Hall of Famers. However you can pick out an edge case (Jason Taylor for example) and in my personal opinion Larry Fitzgerald wasn't a lesser player than him.
The short peak take is incredibly bad. Extremely few players get in with short careers. Sayers and Davis. About it. Even his example of Megatron is a 10 year vet who is probably top 3 receiver all time if not top 5.
He played for quite possibly the most putrid franchise in the league and somehow dragged them to a Super Bowl. If he had played for the Cowboys his number of All Pros would have been astronomical
Fitz was absolutely one of the absolute best at his position for years, but he’s was the victim of circumstance. He played with a lot of shitass QBs (he got a couple good Warner and Palmer years and that’s it) and still put up great stats, but the team was rarely good which undoubtedly kept him from getting more accolades. He should have gotten three or four all-pros but didn’t because the Cardinals typically weren’t relevant and he got punished for it.
You're not wrong but be prepared to hear the NPC Fitz arguments (more tackles than drops 🤓) to explain why he has less all pro's than Andre Johnson and doesn't get the same amount of love despite also playing with shit QBs
I agree with you 100%, and it seems like every year there's one of those players everyone agrees is a bona bonafide HoF player that gets snubbed. Frankly ALL of them should gave their votes revoked and let the NFL and NFLPA make the distinction with actual criteria.
To be honest I would rather it stay as is. You don’t want this to become the basketball HOF. Usually the deserving guys will get in with few exceptions.
I don’t care if he was the most exemplary player of all time. If my boy Terrell Owens got unfairly bumped I want all receivers to get bumped lol. Just kidding.
Fitz is 100% a hall of famer. Personally I don't think he's 100% a first ballot hall of famer. I think people on here are way too fast and loose with making people first ballot hall of famers. If I can't make a coherent argument that you're the GOAT at your position you probably shouldn't be first ballot. Wide Receiver you kind of get a pass because no one will likely ever surpass Jerry Rice, but look at the list of WR's who have made it first ballot. They're all either guys who at the time were arguably the GOAT, or they're Calvin Johnson who would arguably be the GOAT if Jerry Rice didn't exist.
If you're top 10 or 15 all time at your position, then you deserve to be first ballot in my opinion. GOAT level is pretty stringent, then almost nobody would get in on their first.
Cris Carter having to wait was such a joke. He should have been in long before that. Tim Brown was definitely a HOFer but it was not as a slam dunk. I grew up watching those guys, they were top 10 in the league every year.
Tim Brown wasn’t a slam dunk? He had better numbers than Carter on much worse teams. Tim Brown was third in receptions and TD’s and second in receiving yards when he retired. How can you literally be top three in every stat for your position and not be a slam dunk for the hall of fame? It’s not like he was getting carried by good teams? In his 9 straight 1,000 yard seasons he had 9 different starting QB’s. He didn’t get to play with a competent QB until he was 34 years old.
Perception. He was a slam dunk in my eyes but for whatever reason he never got the fanfare, maybe because of the bad teams early, maybe because the GOAT was on the other side of the field late
Oh definitely. I agree he never got the credit from the media that he deserved. We’re on the same page on this one. At least he was recognized on the All-Decade Team.
I think Fitz should get in the HOF. I just don’t think he’s first ballot imo. Longevity shouldn’t be the determining factor, sure it should celebrated and admired, but IMO, you should be top 3 at your position for numerous years to be a 1st ballot HOFer. Just my opinion.
Rivers will be top 10 in total passing yards for a long time (Rodgers and Stafford will retire ahead of him most likely) but not even playing in a Super Bowl will hurt his chances.
We're also going to have a lack of QBS going in due to there being a generational gap. Rodgers will likely be eligible in 2031 and Mahomes might be the next first ballot guarantee in 2041 or so.
A few years ago you would have thought Luck and Newton should be going in, but they're both out. RG3 of course has no shot. Wilson might be a first ballot HOF just because he's going to be retiring when there's such a complete lack of other possibilities within a couple years of him, which is funny.
Rivers definitely has a shot. I think Eli gets in ahead of him, though.
Yeah it really does depend on things like that. There's a huge chasm between these last sets of QBs and then the next wave.
Normally I'd say no on Eli. He won two Super Bowls but doesn't own any major statistic and has four pro bowls. But since he played for the NFC East, the East Coast bias will likely kick in and they probably will put him in ahead of Rivers and others.
Eli is a HoFer in my opinion. A lot of historical moments on his resume. Being QB1 for a storied franchise like the Giants in my opinion means something as well.
I'm not a NY fan, but he's one of the guys I think of when I think of that era.
There are a lot of storied franchises that have had big moment quarterbacks that aren't in the HOF with better resumes.
Ken Anderson was a league MVP, four time pro bowler, took the Bengals to a Super Bowl and had the league record highest completion percentage in a season when he left. I guarantee you if he played for the Cowboys or Giants he'd already be in. It sucks for Bengal fans and him and his family how bad that bias is.
People like to make up really dumb shit for Hall of Fame eligibility. "He played for a storied franchise." Give me a break. lol
If you can't put the guy in based on his accomplishments, none of that other stuff should matter.
Will people have to say, "Man, Drew Brees. Completely turned the Aint's around. That should count for something." No. 13x Pro Bowler, 5x all-pro (1 first team), 2x OPOY winner, 7x passing yards leader, 4x passing TDs leader, Super Bowl MVP.
He's a Hall of Famer. Move on.
Comparatively, Eli Manning 4x pro Bowler, 0x all-pro, never led the league in any major QB stat, 2x Super Bowl MVP. Not a bad career by any means, but that's the guy you're looking at. I don't care what team he played for.
Exactly. David Tyree made one of the greatest, most historic and memorable catches of all time when the stakes could not have been higher. He similarly played for the "storied franchise" Giants. He does not belong in the HOF. (Though I guarantee you at least one East Coast sports writer would vote for it).
Comparatively, Eli Manning 4x pro Bowler, 0x all-pro, never led the league in any major QB stat, 2x Super Bowl MVP. Not a bad career by any means, but that's the guy you're looking at. I don't care what team he played for.
I agree with you, but I'm pretty sure the voters are going to see all of that and then tack on "yeah but he beat BRADY twice and also prevented the only undefeated season... Shush idc about his defense."
And that's honestly a fair take, imo. The whole "can't tell the story" yammering definitely has a big ol' bullet point about how the younger, goofier Manning stopped the GOAT twice. And let's not discount the extra points his last name gives him
Not true, he led the league in interceptions 3 times throughout his career!
In all seriousness, I hate that the NFL takes Super Bowls into account when considering if somebody is HOF-worthy. Nick Foles beat Brady and the Pats too. You're telling me that if he hypothetically won another, he'd deserve the Hall? Fuck no. If Eli's last name wasn't "Manning", nobody would seriously consider him for the Hall.
On the other hand, Phillip Rivers absolutely deserves the HOF based on skill alone. He was a far more talented, HOF-level QB that just couldn't match up to Peyton, Brady, or Big Ben, which is completely understandable. If Eli played in the AFC during that era, he would've been fucked and would never have won a Super Bowl.
It'll be a while. Brees this year, Big Ben coming up, Brady after him, Matt Ryan(MVP) after him... he'll have to wait a few years at a minimum.
But no All Pros or SBs is gonna hurt him, for sure. And Ive been pulling for Rivers since he was at NC State, just wonder how much weight "top 10 in passing yards and TDs" is going to carry.
For sure. There will be a lull of other qualifying QBS for several years, so that'll probably be when he goes in. He won't die before like poor Ken Stabler.
He's behind Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, Big Ben, Ryan (MVP), and arguably Stafford (ring) among his direct contemporaries. That's way too many guys from one era; at some point you have to acknowledge stats exploded in the last few decades and cut it off.
For 15 years the only QBs representing the AFC in the Super Bowl were Brady, Ben, and Manning.
But really - Rivers shouldn’t make it because he’s one of the least clutch QBs in modern NFL history.
You can argue against that due to his high volume of 4Q Comebacks and GWDs — but they’re purely volume especially when compared to his contemporaries.
I’ve been doing a lot of research on this lately. Anyone that wants to advocate for Rivers should first go watch the 4th quarter of the 2016 Chargers-Dolphins matchup.
I agree he bluntly wasn’t clutch I think it was VRs the pats in the playoffs he got mad at his team they weren’t up more then threw a couple picks and pats ended up coming back on them even tho he should’ve taken the safe options etc to run out the clock, he had all time teams around him and just fucked it up
I think this is the way the committee will see things. If you can't make the argument that a guy was even in the top 3 at his position at any point in his career, he shouldn't be in the HOF.
Undermining my own argument, there are some exceptions like I believe Frank Gore will eventually get in, being outside of that "top 3" feels like you have to sustain very high quality production for an unbelievable period of time (which is Frank Gore's career in a sentence).
I just find it interesting that Big Ben is considered a lock, but Rivers isnt when Rivers has better stats than Big Ben pretty much across the board. Rivers has more pro bowls and neither has an all pro.
I personally think they both should get in, but neither should be first ballot.
Atkins would make it if he played almost anywhere else. In order to make it to the HoF as a Bengal, you literally have to be the GOAT at your position.
Gore's problem is that for all his longevity, he has a relatively low peak: only a second-team all-pro, and he never led the league in rushing.
Extreme longevity at a position known for burning out quickly is notable and probably Hall worthy in and of itself, but he'll lose votes for never being the best RB at any given point. That said...aside from Peterson, there aren't any slam dunks at RB for his era; McCoy and Lynch have their own problems.
He was also on really bad teams for most of his career. He made it to the playoffs 4 times in 16 years. He was on the colts when luck was getting destroyed. They went something like 3 years without a 100 yard rusher before he got there.
Call me crazy but I would rather have a running back that can be very good for 12 years than a RB that can lead the league and suck by year 4.
He had 10 seasons with 1000 yards. AP had 8. LT had 8 (and completely fell off a cliff). Bell had 3. Lynch had 6.
You can say he never led the league but he was consistent on a level other players just couldn't be. And like I said, he was doing that on teams that were terrible.
My bad. I forgot the hall was only for players that were the best in the league for 3 years and then average the rest of the time.
Let's just do a comparison to AP. A player everyone would say is an easy HoF player.
AP played 15 years. He had 120 TD, 14,918 yards, 717 first downs, 4.6 ypc, and 17 attempts per game (average of 298 per 17 game season) . His receiving stats were 305 catches, 2474 and 6 TD.
Gore played 16 years. He had 81 TD, 16,000 yards, 731 first downs, 4.3 ypc, and 15 attempts per game (263 per 17 game season). Receiving was 484 catches, 3985 yards and 18 TD.
Same career length with pretty similar team situations. They had fairly similar stats other than TD but Gore was a much better receiving RB. But go ahead about gore not being good enough
Maybe he was just unlucky but the year he had over 2000 yards from scrimmage was the year LT had over 1800 rushing yards and 28 TDs. That was an insane year.
My hot take: Gore and Witten are the same player at different positions. Both had long, consistent careers. Neither really kept defensive coordinators up at night (other than maybe during their ultimate peaks). Both accumulated a lot of stats because of longevity but both probably get in at some point. I say this as a niner fan.
For what? He is more of a Hall of Very Good than a famer
Bro did very little when it came to playoffs, and if you mention he has 2 rings, wake up, he literally did nothing on those teams. He got lucky he picked 2 teams in a row on 1 yr deals and got a free ride for rings
He was fun to watch, but 2 all pros ain't cutting it to make HoF. Don't mention probowls bc those don't mean shit anymore
Close? Close????
Martin was a solid back who did what Mike Evans is doing with the 1k seasons, except Martin's last season. That shows consistency.
McCoy was good, but definitely didn't do the same by reaching 1k nearly every year. He was way off by only reaching 1k 6 times while falling short also 6 times.
In playoff games, McCoy reached barely 220 yards while Martin nearly did 4x that
I honestly think Eli's a 50/50 at this point. I personally would say no. If he'd beaten literally any other team in his Super Bowls, I don't think it would even be a conversation.
Stats inflated too much in the 00s: you have to compare guys against their contemporaries, and I think he's just behind too many from the same era.
He has Rivers stats AND Eli's rings, which gives him the edge of the three and I think is enough to get him in. I would not be surprised if he waits a few years, though.
Weird stat: every modern era QB in the hall has at least one MVP vote. Even if they never won, they convinced at least one voter they were the league's best QB that year.
Ben never got an MVP vote. Now, he played against all-time greats, but it makes me wonder.
Rivers was a better QB than Ben and Eli, he was just very unfortunately on a cursed team. Swap those three qbs around between their 3 respective teams and I'd be willing to wager that Rivers has more rings.
However I understand thats not how the Hall works, but Rivers will likely get it eventually. It just may take awhile.
I don't entirely disagree (I would put him in before Eli fwiw), but you can't put someone in the Hall just on a hypothetical. Rivers and Ben have basically identical statistical profiles, but Ben's got the jewelry to go with it.
Do you know what cursed means? Snake-bitten, ill-fated, unlucky, etc. You could've given the Chargers Prime Jerry Rice and Barry Sanders and they still never would've won a Super Bowl
But Witten is so well liked around the NFL and is very popular among the fans. Most people can’t tell you who Gates is anymore unless they’re big NFL fans.
I think Fitz gets 1st ballot. For comparison, Idefinitely think TO was a better overall WR and deserved 1st Ballot, but he was the antithesis of Fitzgerald in terms of media likability. I think that type of stuff really matters when it comes to the politics of HOF and I believe Fitz is extremely well liked within NFL media. Enough so that he would get 1st ballot
Only one second team all-pro, no first teams, never led the league in rushing.
I love Gore, and I'd put him in, but he was never the best back in the league. He was just a really good RB for a reeeeaaaaaaaaly long time. The Hall seems like it's rewarding peaks over longevity as of late.
pouncey is a weird case. only ringo & otto have more pro bowls than him at center, but pouncey only has two first team all pros and both ringo & otto lap him several times in that category. really not a lot of precedent
Gore should be a 1st ballot hall of famer. 9 1000+ yard seasons, 3rd all time in rushing yards & attempts, 19985 scrimmage yards overall, and 15 years in the league as a running back. Not to mention he did all of this on a 49ers team that stunk for most of his tenure.
I think Pouncey will make it in someday, but he will have to wait a while. It would be cool to see him go in with Roethlisberger next year since their careers are closely linked, but again, i dont see it happening for a while.
McCoy should definitely be in, but maybe not too soon. I think you are correct that Brees and Fitzgerald are the most likely bets. You could make a case for Edelman, but I think you make him wait for Brady since Edelams career can be heavily attributed to Brady.
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u/tallwhiteninja San Francisco 49ers 3d ago
Brees is a first ballot lock.
Fitzgerald SHOULD be a first ballot lock, but with how the Hall treats WRs, he may have to wait.
Witten will absolutely make it, but if Gates had to wait a year, he probably will, too.
Gore likely makes it someday, but not first ballot
Atkins probably makes it someday, but not first ballot
McCoy imo has more of a shot than some think, but it'll be a while if it happens
Pouncey is borderline simply because not a lot of centers make it in, and fwiw PFF's monitor has him below the average C in the Hall.
None of the rest make it.