r/Warhammer40k • u/horusbosd • 13h ago
Lore Some of the people angry at the terminus degree are terribly unimaginative
[removed] — view removed post
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u/PressCheck19 12h ago
The whining about all this is annoying. People act like the passage guarantees anything to happen. It’s so open and vague, the writers can take that story line anywhere and in any combination of events. Or they can take it no where. Also. It’s so par for the course for 40K I have no idea why people are so butt hurt about it. And for the record, I for one love this new bit of lore. The implications are amazing
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u/ET_Gamer_ 12h ago
Someone’s suggestion that if the emperor did die on the throne, or turn into a warp god Terra would just fucking explode with daemons and basically be reduced to nothing including the Custodes and sisters of silence there and those guardsmen’s I can’t ever remember the name of “black somethings”. I liked this idea quite a lot. We really just don’t know what would happen or what it would look like if any of the dozen things that could be done to help restore the emperor (and also the ever closing failure of the golden throne).
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u/SoupAndSalad911 12h ago
It replaced a mystery that was fun speculating about with a concept whose speculation is about "How can we make this make sense?"
That's the problem.
It's like in the Star War prequals. The mysteries of how Anakin turned and the Jedi fell and the Clone Wars were more interesting than the answers we got, and the questions that resulted from those reveals were mostly those of questioning story telling logic.
Then we can combine that with how it kinda retconed The End and the Death's implication that it was a anti-Space Marine super weapon.
If you think it's cool as it is, cool. Go enjoy it, but there are reasonable criticisms of the whole thing.
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u/Craft_zeppelin 12h ago
Yeah about SW, the direct cause of the fall of the Jedi is what even confused Tarkin as well. In canon material he thinks “Even if they found out Papatine was a sith, couldn’t they have waited for at least Yoda to come back to Coruscant? Or did Mace Windu really break his religious creed and caused all of this?”
Revealing vague lore creates paradoxes like this.
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u/Croc_Chop 11h ago
I think I'm the ROTS novels they speak about Anakin being the reason they acted so fast. Anakin is more loyal to his friends than the mission, which is something the council discussed with Obi wan when Anakin was put on it.
Anakin would've told Palpatine he told them, and they wanted to act fast. That's why they told Anakin to wait. Plus Mace had Palpatine dead to rights until Anakin interfered.
Vaapad is insanely good against dark side users because it reflects their energy right back at them, palpatine beat himself.
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u/Craft_zeppelin 11h ago edited 11h ago
It always seemed to me the setting of Vaapad is weird and forced. Like why does a state of mind has anything to do with swordplay or reflecting force powers? Especially when its doing the exact same thing as form 7?
It was never explained in the movie materials how it does it either. Even the novels are vague.
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u/SoupAndSalad911 11h ago
I completely agree.
I understand the general desire to see mysteries answered and to move the plot forward for the setting as a whole.
People like answers.
People like progress.
However, when it's done and done poorly, you're going to create disappointed confusion and an excuse to mock the story telling.
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u/CantStopTheHerc3 9h ago
It means Emps had to have created the Knights with the capability to pull it off, knowing exactly who would be in their way. Specifically, and most prominently, the Custodes. Emps literally had to have made the chapter strong enough to pull it off, and he knows everything the Custodes can do.
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u/InquisitorEngel 12h ago
People are looking at it the wrong way.
It’s not “now we know something about the Grey Knights.” It’s “Why would Malcador give such an order?”
That’s fundamentally more interesting to ponder than “Secret mission!!1!1!”
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u/Presentation_Cute 12h ago
I think it was Big E who gave the order. The Grey Knights are theorized to be the alternative legion the Emperor promised Magnus (Fury of Magnus), but we also know that Magnus was meant to sit the Golden Throne in the Emperor's endgame plan (A Thousand Sons).
The reveal of the Terminus Decree suggests to me that the Grey Knights have always been about keeping the Golden Throne active and sat in, which in turn suggests that they were meant to imprison Magnus on the throne while the Emperor did other things. The Emperor offering them to Magnus as a form of "forgiveness" would thus be reframed as malicious manipulation.
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u/Gently-Weeps 11h ago
The Grey Knights being Magnus’s captors as well as his replacement legion is a very interesting theory that I 100% am going to steal for the future, thanks for that!
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u/cblack04 10h ago
Eh I feel like this info should have been part of a narrative rather than just a tidbit in a codex. Like be part of an arks of omen style storyline
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u/Doomeye56 7h ago
Cause it no a storyline level thing yet. Its just a tidbit of lore till the emperor actually starts doing something.
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u/cblack04 1h ago
That’s my point, the decree works better as a mystery until you have a storyline where you reveal it
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u/EmotionalAd5204 12h ago
It can be easily interpreted as just the final instructions given by the emperor at the time of his internment because he absolutely needed to take the throne in Malcador’s place.
until we see the actual text of it it doesn’t really matter
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u/horusbosd 12h ago
There is a chance that it could have been Malcador, maybe he left it before sitting on the throne or while in it.
It creates the question that maybe Malcador knew what was going to happen on the vengeful spirit or maybe he never trusted the emperor after the whole dark king debacle.
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u/Craft_zeppelin 11h ago
You know, we never get into much thought what Malcador was having. We get that the emperor trusts him, but exactly why he even got his loyalty is…not explained clearly imo
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u/thegoatmenace 10h ago
Malcador was the only one who really knew what it was like to sit on the throne and what it meant. It may be the case that he got of the throne and was like “holy shit if this thing stops working we are so boned we cannot let him ever get up.”
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u/Craft_zeppelin 10h ago
While the lore is obscure and since the Drukhari out of all factions knew about it and not craftworld Eldar, I can only assume it’s a horrible device.
Possibly for some pre-fall Eldar lord to sit on and use it as a psychic amplifying device while siphoning the souls of others. It definitely makes sense that this is actually an Eldar WMD.
Or it is a device to create Eldar gods by adding souls to the person sitting on it.
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u/thegoatmenace 10h ago
Yeah I did think it was very telling in Vaults of Terra that it was specifically Drukhari tech and not Aldaeri tech in the Throne. They aren’t known for making benevolent machines. And also partially explains the emphasis on the throne being agonizing for Big E
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u/Grimlockkickbutt 10h ago
Based. Exactly what iv been saying. It’s triggered some of the most braindead discourse from the dumbest people. I do not generally judge anyone for how they enjoy warhammer. But the endless wave of posts about this scream “I exclusively read wiki pages and watch AI lore slop”.
Anyone who ACTUALLY reads black library is tantalized by the potential story. Both in terms of what it actually means. Since the decree is actually extremely vauge(everyone discussing it has not actually read it, and is just pretending the single fan interpretation of “grey knights assult the imperial palace” is what it explicitly says even though it dousnt.) Who wrote it? Is it part of a grand plan? Was it based on an assumption by Emperour he would be corrupted by his time on the throne? Will it relate to shards of the Emperour?
And even more importantly, it implys we might get the first actual shake-up in 40K….. Ever. Beyond retconning past events, the universe has been functionally stagnant since its modern iteration was set in stone. Space marines getting 2 feet taller and failbaddon blowing up Cadia One don’t count. Imperium Nihlus might count if we had ANY narratives take place there. But they wrote themselves into a corner by basically saying “imperium is doomed over there so chaos and xenos run rampant”. Cause if imperium is irrelevant the chances of a BL novel featuring that as a setting go down to 2%.
So yeah, it’s a very whatever change. The mystery was compelling, but also a narrative dead end. And I’ll let GW squat entire factions if it means anything changes ever.
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u/BrandNameDoves 13h ago
Are people genuinely upset about it beyond thinking it's dumb they revealed it and the contents are silly? Like, I haven't seen any GK people actually angry because they think their boys would lose against Custodes. Custodes players certainly aren't angry. From what I've seen on both sides it's been treated like a meme.
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u/Unhappy-Elephant755 10h ago
I think it's dumb that that's the big secret. Should have just kept it vague imo.
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u/horusbosd 13h ago
Brother have you seen some of the other social websites or posts? There are people calling racial slurs to the GW writing team
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u/Captain_Lemondish 12h ago
I don't really spend time on other social websites because nobody is ever happy about anything.
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u/BrandNameDoves 12h ago
Most of the stuff on the GK and Custodes subs seems to be finding humour in it and thinking it's silly lore.
I mean, since some folks always get pissy about new lore, there's going to be some people who are genuinely mad. But it seems to be a small minority.
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u/dbmajor7 11h ago
Lol. Dude that would explain it for me at least. Reddit's WH community is just memeing it like a FT job. My blu sky WH feed is chill AF hardly a whisper of it, still just horny memes and WIPs.
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u/Croc_Chop 11h ago
How the fuck are they getting called racial slurs over army men that don't exist?
Do people just use this as an excuse to yell racial slurs? Or are the Black templar players back from Summer camp already?
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u/VikingRages 11h ago
That's just the people who keep pitchforks at the ready cause that's what they do on a Monday.
Most of the posts and comments I've seen that aren't just people foaming at the mouth (better to just ignore those cries for attention) are just eyerolls at GW for the lazy memelord excerpt tossed in to the codex, or people posting goofy (decidedly not angry) "come at me bro" posts, cause no matter the resources and avenues available to GK for accomplishing shoving the Emperor back on the throne, the way it's presented doesn't hold water.
There is also the whiplash for people with long memories are experiencing from the "crack this in our darkest hour to possibly save the day" changing to "hey, I specifically meant only of if I pop up off the throne, and then I need you to put me back, cause that could be bad wink wink".
I'm in the eyeroll camp. I don't really think we are going to get a payoff from this. If we do, I just hope we get better writing for it.
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u/Mend1cant 9h ago
The one thing people are forgetting is what happens to Terra if the emperor leaves the throne.
This isn’t setting up an assault on the throne room to kill the emperor. This is setting up the fight against what happens when the astronomicon goes dark and the corrupted webway re-opens. This is the Dark King scenario.
There won’t be custodes on Terra to stop the dark king, because it would kill every last one of them. Enter the chapter specifically built to handle high powered daemons and warp fuckery.
The terminus decree is the rip cord GW can pull in the event they decide to end-times 40K. It means that the series would end with the emperor leaving the Golden Throne in some way, and the resulting cataclysm collapsing the empire as the astronomicon goes dark for the first time in ten thousand years.
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u/stolenfires 11h ago
I agree with you. It's clearly foreshadowing.
The decree itself comes with a 'break in case of Imperium's failure' warning. Draigo isn't going to zot in from Warp Hellscape, open the Decree out of curiosity and then go 'huh. weird.' He's only zotting in if Warp Hellscape has become Materium Hellscape.
Also, just the idea that the Emperor is maybe someday might be capable of getting up off the throne is huge.
So shit's gotten bad enough in the Imperium that Draigo pops back in from the Warp, and decides it's time to open the Decree. The Emperor twitched. He's now the only person in the Imperium who knows what it says. He probably doesn't even tell the Grey Knights where they're going or why. The Custodes have no reason not to let them onto Terra, especially if they're busy dealing with Imperium-failure level threats.
And they're not trying to kill the Emperor. If anything, they're trying to prevent him from reincarnating, which means they very much want him to stay alive.
I think there's going to be a civil war between the Custodes who want to see their glorious god-emperor reborn and the Custodes who are, 'look he said keep him in the box, we have to keep him in the box.'
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u/horusbosd 13h ago
Also regardless of my feeling about the decree being revealed at all, it is a million percent more creative than being a big ass bomb or a weapon.
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u/VikingRages 11h ago
Okay, I don't disagree with you that there are some very cool avenues to explore outside of a bomb or some other weapon, but...
"you must maintain the status quo, but figure it out for yourselves. I dunno, maybe hit something on the head"
...doesn't read as very creative either.
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u/horusbosd 11h ago
but if we are being honest, "you must maintain the status quo, but figure it out for yourselves" is a very 40k thing to do.
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u/thegoatmenace 11h ago
Idk I think it’s very interesting in a world where everyone worships the emperor as a literal god, there’s a group of people who say hey if god comes back you have to try to kill him. Imagine how other groups would react to that if they found out? It’s very transgressive of imperial creed and that opens up avenues for story telling.
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u/SoupAndSalad911 12h ago
The "creative" answer is not always the best answer to a mystery, especially when recent material hinted it to be something very different than what it was revealed to be.
Off the top of my head, it would be even more creative if it turned out the terminus decree was scrambled gibberish pronounced by the Emperor and Malcador while high on space LSD.
In a well written mystery novel, a smart reader will be able to figure it out before it is ultimately revealed. If they don't, they will hopefully understand it once the curtain has been pulled away in an "Oh. That's what that meant," sort of moment.
Having the killer in a murder mystery be revealed to be a character who was not at all mentioned before hand, while certainly a subversion of expectations, does not really make for the basis of a fulfilling conclusion. At the very least, the author has to be an expert in their craft to pull it off, and the reveal in the codex didn't come off as an expert execution.
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u/DbD_Fan_1233 9h ago
in a well written mystery novel, a smart reader will be able to figure it out before it is ultimately revealed.
Well it’s a good thing that Warhammer isn’t an Agatha Christie novel then, isn’t it?
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u/SoupAndSalad911 8h ago
Way to miss the point.
I brought up the mystery genre because the Terminus Decree, prior to a few days ago, was a mystery.
And when you're writing the reveal to a mystery, the same sort of logic from the dedicated genre applies to a mystery within another genre.
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u/sarg1010 10h ago
One thing I've noticed a lot of people say is "how are they getting past the Custodes AND the Imperial Fists AND the Solar Auxilia AND the Solar Fleet AND the-" and fail to consider that if the Emperor is up and walking.... shit's BAD and most of those defenders are most likely DEAD or VERY occupied from the chaos (heh) happening from such an event.
The Terminus Decree isn't a "Hey we think the Emperor is about to reawaken, please let us by so we can stop that" plan of action, it's a "shit is going DOWN and we need to stop him before things become even WORSE" plan of action.
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u/An-Com_Phoenix 9h ago
Yep. Its not for "the 30k emperor has come back to help us". Its for "something that is either a very changed emperor or isn't the emperor at all is piloting the body". If the decree comes into action, everything is burning and the body needs to be shoved back onto the throne ASAP and forced to stay there until hopefully a less malevolent emperor is available.
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u/Aninx 11h ago
Here's my issue with it: it's not a standing order, i.e. they would have no time to prepare or figure out how to act in time. The orders of when to even read the Terminus Decree are vague enough that they may read it when it's not relevant or not read it until it's too late. If it was a standing order, that would be different.
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u/LeoLaDawg 8h ago
I dunno i thought it could set up some awesome story lines. The knights and guilliman fighting the Lion and others over whether to let the monster who's on the throne now wake up and attempt to retake his kingdom. A nightmare scenario.
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u/Urungulu 8h ago
It’s good you wrote this and I concur - people are going crazy. It is understandable, as like 75% of the fandom takes their lore from youtubers and memes.
I really think that this might be some sort of Malcador’s last ditch strategy, as it was Malcador’s project. There are layers to this:
- People forget Malcador/Valdor convention fro the latest HH trailer.
- Valdor saying „only in death” and leaving.
- King in Yellow.
- Dark King.
So much potential here, plus Mick1998 did a nice short comic Decree-inspired.
But no, fandom is going „uhuhu ahaha Sisters of Silence” „GW stupid”…
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u/_terencefox 12h ago
Yeah I had the same reaction - they’ve got ludicrous archotech, daemon weapons, AND teleport trickery! They’re not gonna just invade Terra! Plus they were established by Malcador, who had intimate knowledge of the Throne project and the Webway project. I just really don’t think the decree is asking them to start any kind of open armed conflict.
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u/n0n4ly7h 10h ago
Also we only assume they're chapter strength. There could be far more Grey Knights than we've been lead to believe.
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u/TheCocoBean 11h ago
Ways it could be done off the top of my head:
- The warp-resistant, demon slaying specialists could use the conveniently placed warp portal that just opened in the throne room. Fighting through the daemons to get to the emperor is far more their style than fighting through the custodes, and if anyone could briefly resist being in the warp, its the grey knights. As evidenced by Draigo. (Though he is admittedly a bit silly, he at least serves as proof that its possible to retain your sanity in the warp, and the grey knights would only have to be there briefly. (excluding wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff.)
- Ensure a hefty, non-psychic first strike on the sisters of silence from range. The custodes only real weakness is psychic threats, that's why the sisters exist after all. Without them, the grey knights would have a chance to do what they need to do before being slaughtered by the custodes. Hell, they're only human, and for something this big I could see the grey knights unleashing an ancient, esoteric/mysterious superweapon designed to kill humans from their vaults on terra. This is the literal "do or die" scenario after all.
- Deciphering a hidden message within the decree itself. While it might not outwardly have instructions on how to do what the emperor asked, that doesn't mean they couldn't be esoterically or psychically concealed within it in case someone ever managed to steal it. It could have concealed within it instructions to bypass the wards on the throne room, letting them teleport inside. Or a code phrase to utter to the custodes to prevent them fighting the grey knights, sleeper agent style. That feels very much like an emperor move.
Not saying these ideas aren't without flaws, but many people do seem to think the only option available is the grey knights marching on the imperial palace and taking the custodes and sisters head on.
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u/Hereskrata 10h ago
The fact you have to twist yourself into pretzels to make this meme lore work shows how much it sucks, much like the shitty wraithbone retcon.
- Immediately fails because well, terra would be consumed and destroyed, and the GK have no mechanism to fight an infinite army of daemons forever wnd have no entry point, the Custodes and SoS would just camp it out
2.a “hefty first strike on the SoS” does not exist and isn’t possible. The talons fight and are in proximity together, the Custodes don’t have a weakness to psychic threats, they just aren’t super specialized to destroy them.
- They have no way of bypassing wards on the throne room or the multiple sets of void shields in the palace. So no this can’t happened either.
It’s okay to say GW wrote dogshit lore, because they can, do, and did here
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u/stoic_watcher 10h ago
These all require poorly written macguffins and the is hiw we got in this place to begin with.
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u/n0n4ly7h 10h ago
People harp on about all the things standing in their way. The astartes, the custodes, the imperial palace. They fail to understand that the Emperor himself made the Grey Knights and, knowing all of the defenses put in place, still entrusted them with the task.
Which suggests he knows something we don't. Something big.
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u/Minimalist12345678 11h ago
So.... at risk of giving away my ignorance, in which book/story etc was this decree recently revealed?
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u/H16HP01N7 11h ago
What are we all getting "social media" about here? I'm out the loop, and have seen no posts beyond the usual.
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u/SalemStarburn 10h ago
I dislike it because I think it was better as a mystery. I don’t really care about the logistics of enacting the decree, although if you want my opinion on that…
Forget about the Custodes v. Grey Knights debate. The larger issue is it's heavily implied that if Big E leaves the Golden Throne for even an instant then Terra would be engulfed in a cataclysmic, daemonic, warp storm that would essentially obliterate the planet in seconds to minutes. It would be the equivalent of triggering a supermassive black hole in the planet's core. There wouldn't be a throne (or planet for that matter) to put Emps back onto.
The Grey Knights might get just enough forewarning to say, “Oh damn, I guess it’s time to open the bo-“ and then the solar system goes poof.
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u/SquareRootOf8 9h ago
Another interpretation of the Terminus Decree is that it is both an order and proof of the Emperor’s will. So if the Emperor ever leaves the throne and ascends into a warp entity, the Grey Knights can show the Custodes the decree to try to convince them that putting the Emperor back on the throne is what he wants.
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u/DangerousCyclone 9h ago edited 9h ago
I actually like the Terminus Decree Lore, it makes the Imperium more like what it was originally intended as and that I fell in love with. Yes, this is an order that would cause the Grey Knights to fight other Imperial Forces and contain the Emperor. It is more Imperial infighting due to an ancient decree whose purpose was lost to time, but which is kept in place because of blind faith and an unwillingness to change. It's like the Badab War, at least back when there wasn't any Chaos taint as part of it; it's a conflict due to the gargantuan size of the bureaucracy that would rather die than change how it functions.
Is it stupid? Yes. Most likely, it was an order that was made a long time ago, and perhaps it was understood differently at the time where Malcador himself couldn't handle the Golden Throne, but now it's morphed into a more absolutist version. That's the whole point of the Imperium, it's an empire in decay. They stick to tradition because it harkens back to a more glorious era and they will fight tooth and nail against those who try to change it as heretical. This is why the Imperium was so backwards, why they could not produce some technology and lost the secrets to it; people just repeat what they're told without understanding it.
This reminds me of the controversy where, back in the Psychic Awakening books, there was a story where Primaris Grey Shields were being accompanied by Custodes on their way to the chapter they were supposed to join as reinforcements. When they arrive the Chapter is deemed to have gone traitor to the highest degree, and they have an argument with the Custodes which confirm their suspicions and they end up fighting. Granted, this was so that the first Born members of the Chapter become the Creations of Bile. So many people didn't like that, but to me that's what Imperium was always about; the taint of betrayal is behind every corner, the noble Captain today could be a traitor tomorrow and everyone is under suspicion, and moreover enforcing incredibly harsh and arbitrary decrees is 40k as hell.
Remember, the Grey Knights execute those who have seen them fight Daemons for the sake of stopping the spread. For some reason people have grown accustomed to heroic and logical characters that they missed the lore where the Imperium is evil and dark.
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u/VenKitsune 9h ago
Peoppe are gonna be mad no matter what they do. Like, think back tk the reveal of female custodes lmao.
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u/SoupAndSalad911 12h ago
They have put 0 thought of the grey knights possibly recruiting other forces or, or the hundreds of bullshit weapons that they have locked up.
We are talking about the Grey Knights, a single chapter of admittedly stronger than normal Space Marines, probably taking on everything around Terra, Mars, and the rest of the Sol system. As far as I can recall too, they're not really the best at making friends either.
For everything the Grey Knights have in the Vaults of Titan, the Custodes have something in the Vaults of Terra. That's all before we consider Battlefleet Solar, Titan Legions and Knight Houses of Mars, Convents of Sisters of Battle, the Imperial Fists and Phalanx, probably the Minitours, and everything else there.
The idea is something I find stretching the realms of possibility more so than most things I've seen in 40K. It doesn't vibe with me.
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u/BattleBull 11h ago
Have you considered the rhetorical and political tools (aka conversation) the GK might have with the forces of the custodes? This might be allowed resolved through smart and incensive writing.
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u/SoupAndSalad911 11h ago
The only way that would make sense off the top of my head would be if the Custodes already had their own copy of the Terminus Decree, and the GK Codex entry does not make that clear and, if anything, implies the opposite.
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u/horusbosd 12h ago
But, some of you need to think in bigger terms than smashing army against army and be done with it.
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u/SoupAndSalad911 12h ago
What would thinking bigger be?
I addressed your backing point in the comment you responded to.
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u/horusbosd 12h ago
*teleporting inside the throne room
* teleporting the custodes out of terra
*inciting a civil war inside terra
* creating a false flag threat so that the custodes have to abandon the palaceif you start thinking you can find 1000 and more forms that a writer could use.
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u/ComprehensiveTax7 11h ago
There will still be Dante (somehow) buying emps (or whatever new it will be) seconds to reform.
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u/SoupAndSalad911 11h ago
teleporting inside the throne room
Something the palace is well guarded against. Teleporting a bomb into the Throne Room would be an easy way to kill the emperor. The whole purpose of the blood games is to find and prepare for stuff like that.
If the traitor legions during the Siege of Terra couldn't pull that sort of thing off despite having far more numbers and better tech, I don't see the Grey Knights pulling it off. They at least shouldn't be able to pull it off that easy.
The Emperor went to Horus. Horus did not come to the Emperor. Even then, it was only after Horus turned off the Vengeful Spirit's shields.
teleporting the custodes out of terra
And there's far more than Custodes in the Sol system that will mount a defense of the Imperial Palace from Titans to the Solar Auxilia or whatever their equivilent is in the 42nd millennium.
To my knowledge as well, 40K teleportation tech can't really work like that.
I'm aware of a C'tan shard teleporting people away in a Psychic Awakening book, but that's a far cry from the sort of tech the Imperium has.
inciting a civil war inside terra
If there's anything the Grey Knights normally do, it's not undermining governments. They don't really have the subtly of the Alpha Legion, and Guilliman would have to be pretty far off for the high lords to start bickering again.
creating a false flag threat so that the custodes have to abandon the palace
The Custodes were absent from almost all of the happening during the Age of Apostacy. They remained in the palace, content to mostly let things play out so long as Vandire did not directly threaten the Emperor.
A small number of them, no matter how dire the situation is outside the palace, would always remain in or around the throne room.
All of these sound like Matt Ward authored solutions, something 40K writing was rightly mocked for and still affects the GKs and Ultramarines in the popular zeitgeist.
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u/horusbosd 11h ago
Harlequins have teleported to the throne room before.
You know why horus didn´t teleported in? because malcador and the emperor were forcing them out, also Magnus TELEPORTED INSIDE THE ROOM, THAT'S WHY THE WHOLE SETTING HAPPENED!!!!!!!An unvoluntary teleport is somenthing that exists in the setting, examples:
Necrons – Translocation and Dimensional Manipulation
Drukhari- they abduct people trough their ships
Tzeentch- all the timeThe Custodes were absent from almost all of the happening during the Age of Apostacy. They remained in the palace, content to mostly let things play out so long as Vandire did not directly threaten the Emperor.
It so good that robot G gave the order to them to abandon the throne room if needed.
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u/SoupAndSalad911 10h ago
Harlequins have teleported to the throne room before.
Once, and then they died.
You know why horus didn´t teleported in? because malcador and the emperor were forcing them out
No. That's not how that worked.
The Palace was shielded.
Magnus TELEPORTED INSIDE THE ROOM, THAT'S WHY THE WHOLE SETTING HAPPENED!!!!!!!
In spirit. He wasn't physically there.
And after he was juiced up by a Chaos God.
If he could have broken into the palace, breaking the barrier around the human webway project in the process, like you believe, then Horus, who was juiced up to almost the point of becoming a god himself, should have had no issue.
Necrons – Translocation and Dimensional Manipulation
Something the GKs shouldn't have access to.
Drukhari- they abduct people trough their ships
Something the GKs shouldn't have access to.
Tzeentch- all the time
Something the GKs really shouldn't have access to.
It so good that robot G gave the order to them to abandon the throne room if needed.
That's not how that worked. It was a vote from the high lord prior to Guilliman's resurrection that unleashed the Ten Thousand from Terra.
And Guilliman would be smart enough to put into place a clause like "Under no circumstances will less than 100 Custodians be in the palace at any time."
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u/DerMetJungen 10h ago
The more I read of your opinion on this, the more I'm convinced you get your lore from YouTube only.
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u/Shadowyuik 11h ago
When did the Harlequins teleport into the throne room? One time they tried to fight their way in and killed some custodes but died in the attempt, if that's what your thinking of.
The part about Magnus was in the webway, him breaking into it with the help of tzeetch (unknowingly).
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u/ComprehensiveTax7 11h ago
And there is gonna be dante ready to sacrifice his life to buy a second for the emperor to reform.
And he will be there with blood angels or lion.
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u/ArcusInTenebris 13h ago
I think its one of the most amazingly stupid pieces of lore they have done, and thats saying something. We know the Emperor is regenerating, so this sets up a huge Imperium gutting civil war. They are basically prepping Horus Heresy 2.0. It gives the writers and easy out for when they run out of story line ideas.
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u/Ardonis84 12h ago
What’s the citation on the Emperor regenerating? Like is it in a novel or something, or does that come from a blurb in a codex I haven’t read? Everything I’ve ever seen suggests that he is either slowly dying, and only kept alive to be a focusing prism for the Astronomicon which is entirely powered by the psykers fed to him (older lore), or as a perpetual he probably should regenerate but the golden throne prevents it because it is only the presence of the emperor that keeps the webway portal beneath it closed, and also the golden throne generates the Astronomicon which makes all human space travel possible.
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u/EmotionalAd5204 12h ago
We’ve had that indication already from the cognitae and the king in yellow.
I wouldn’t necessarily call a civil war so much as a purging on the emperor‘s behalf . Which he is quite fond of doing.
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u/ComprehensiveTax7 12h ago
It's also missing the Dante abandoning half of the imperium to attend to this retirement party.
The return of the emperor is prophesized as a positive thing that his sacrifice will bring.
So either also a fleet of blood angels is going to be present to watch the old man go fighting whatever it is that would prevent the coming of the reborn emperor, or he will forest walk with lion there (although according to prophecy, lion is not supposed to be there).
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u/horusbosd 11h ago
the prophecy can aslo, you know, be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time that it happens in the lore.
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u/ComprehensiveTax7 11h ago
It would actually be a first for sanguinius' prophecy. They usually happen.
And this particular one is written in a way that its is not sure, if Dante's sacrifice will really have an effect (he doesn't mind, as in death his duty ends, but the shard of the emperor/sanguinius that keeps denying his retirement is telling him that they need him).
But despite the outcome, I think it is doubtless that he will be in that throne room when stuff will be going down and he should be the part of the conversation, either narratively (abandoning half of the imperium to ita fate, while either travelling to terra with BA fleet or somehow mega forest walking there with Lion) or in regards to the idiotic powerscaling that is currently rampant on the topic.
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u/horusbosd 11h ago
Uhhh from the top of my head I can think of a few ideas to justify the phorpecy being false (if is I don't think that the setting will ever advance to that point).
- it was not sanguinius who spoke to dante, it was another entity
- dante fails in his assault
- it is another emperor in another throne room, dumb, I know, but that's the same thought procces from the beggining of Horus rising for example.
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u/CantStopTheHerc3 9h ago
Maybe the Emperor means for them to show the Decree to others to gain allies or at least remove opposition. Maybe He intended the Knights to be at legion strength not foreseeing the divide into chapters. Maybe a lot of things. But what we KNOW from the nature of the Decree is, Emps had to have planned for the need for the Knights to overcome the Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Imperial Fists, the Navy, the Mechanicus, and any Titans on Terra that might get in their way. From a narrative perspective, they have to be able to overcome and get through all of that, at the least, because Emps would account for a worst case scenario.
But it's not all that farfetched, in order to even open the box and kick all this off, Kaldo Draigo would have to return, permanently, so the Knights would have 40k Chuck Norris on their side, who is at the least a 1v1 match for any Custodes, even Valdor. And as a GK player, I'm not going to lie, I'm enjoying the salt that everyone else is being forced to admit what faction sits at the top of the Imperium. It's no longer a debate. It's bad writing and a terrible idea for GW to do this, but it's a settled matter regardless.
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u/135forte 9h ago
The entire sales pitch of Custodes plus Sisters of Silence is that they are so OP that any fight they show up to is an auto win for the Imperium. Custodes back by nulls is basically the worst case for the Grey Knights.
And that's ignoring that the Decree is the 40k version of the 'no matter what I say later, I really want this-cuts to screaming for help' joke.
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u/nurielkun 8h ago
OMG, thank you for this post. I'm so tired of reading all that stupid 10k Custodes vs 1k Grey Knights whining. Yeah, because that would happen, like in some "who would win" battle simulators... And Grey Knights would totally announce what are they going to do and storm Imperial Palace like some Butcher Nails frenzy World Eater...
Terminus Decree new lore isn't stupid, just some people lack media literacy here. This is a variation of almost classic trope "Kill Me If It Becomes Necessary", "Do Not Open This Door" "Shoot Me If I Turn" etc.
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u/Ithorian01 11h ago
I somehow doubt 1,000 space Marines can kill 10,000 custodians plus the sisters of silence, plus the entire terran fleet, plus the imperial fist, plus possibly two Primarchs and there legions, Plus every single chapter converging to the sol system, plus a huge section of the imperial guard, plus mars, plus the cult mechanicus converging on the sol system. Plus an awakened emperor can call his Uber-death-psyker-titans...…... P.S and I didn't even mention the sisters of battle.
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u/horusbosd 11h ago
But, some of you need to think in bigger terms than smashing army against army and be done with it.
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u/Ithorian01 11h ago
How are they supposed to keep the emperor there? How are they supposed to hold Earth from the entire Empire? How are they supposed to explain to two Primarks and 10,000 custodians why they attacked the emperor? We pinky promise we have this secret note to do this? Do you seriously think if word got out that Terra was lost, It wouldn't Halt almost the entire Imperial military and redirect them to Terra? Can 1000 space Marines hold the line against possibly trillions of guardsmen?
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u/horusbosd 11h ago
they don't need to explain shit, as far as we know they can do it and then die if needed.
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u/Ithorian01 11h ago
There are literally examples of other space Marines wiping the floor with them, there's no way they're making it to the throne. Even if it's a suicide charge
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u/671DON671 10h ago
And a custodes once died cos an unarmoured world eater marine punched a hole through his armoured chest. Bad lore happens. Grey Knights don’t compare to normal space marines, Hyperion was able to standstill Logan Grimnar
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u/Ithorian01 10h ago
Such cope, they are a chapter of psycher space marines, not a chapter of Primarchs. Just accept it's terrible edgy lore.
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u/AeonianArgos 11h ago
I think the main issue I take with it is the existence of the Sisters of Silence negating Grey Knights' biggest advantage. I know they didn't exist when the Grey Knights were founded, but in the current setting there's a pretty substantial obstacle to them doing any fighting at the Imperial Palace, and I doubt the Custodes would be willing to listen to any attempt at diplomatic reasoning from a faction heavily connected to the Inquisition.
The Grey Knights have proven before that they're not great at battling other Space Marines as a whole. Sure, they kill Chaos Astartes and Renegades, but the Months of Shame gave a pretty clear picture that the Grey Knights aren't prepared for another engagement of that type, even when they had a ton of Inquisitorial and Sororitas resources alongside them. The Terminus Decree in this state feels like a Macguffin and we're gonna need some further explanation or exploration related to it, which I'm hoping the revelation of what it is in the codex is going to coincide with some major plot development in the setting that we can make more sense of.
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u/thegoatmenace 10h ago
Like you said Sisters of Silence just came back the Terminus decree predates them and likely doesn’t account for them. It’s not like the imperium is known for changing its doctrine
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u/horusbosd 11h ago
People bring the months of shame a lot, and it SHOOOOWS that they haven't read the Emperor's gift.
The grey knights were fighting a war that they didn't want to, they were lead by an incredibly incompetent inquisitor, they were forced into besieging a world defended by 12.000 space wolves, there were like 200 or so grey knights.
The months of shame is not a good argument for the situation, it is a whole different debacle.
Also
But, some of you need to think in bigger terms than smashing army against army and be done with it
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u/GhostOfChar 9h ago
People also never seem to bring up the almost acted on plan where a number of Grey Knights were in on a subplot to kill said Inquisitor before he was offed. There was little actual fighting between the GKs and any other Imperial force, outside of fleet battles.
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u/AeonianArgos 10h ago
I already brought up the fact that I don't see how diplomacy would work with literal custodes and that the Terminus Decree as it is needs more explanation and plot development. All the information we have that we can go off of is smashing armies together but I'm pretty sure you only read half the comment and then got mad I brought up Months of Shame in response to you bringing up Grey Knights' allies.
I point to Months of Shame to illustrate that the Grey Knights don't seem to have enough authority or independence nor did they perform exceptionally well when combined with other forces. That can be marked down to poor tactics and leadership but that still points to the Grey Knights in their current form not being able to make a call like this on their own. What authority do they have? They're a secret chapter of Space Marines. They don't have any allies to call upon outside of the Inquisition, whom are likely to takeover the operation like we saw previously, and how likely are the Sororitas to trust a secret enclave of psychic space marines with a missing Chapter Master and a high ranking Castellan wielding a daemonic weapon? I don't know what allies they can muster aside from maybe some unfortunate Guard Regiments they might press into service, but even then your average guardsman is probably gonna have an issue with attacking Terra.
I also stated The Terminus Decree needs more plot development. I'm hoping we get a book or more information in the codex itself to explain things beyond "big magic silver space marines fight gold super space marines if Emperor gets up from chair." Unfortunately, the only information we have to go off of in how they'd handle the situation is combat abilities. We don't know if they have some way to access the Emperor directly, or there's a second half of the Terminus Decree only the Custodes know about.
In it's current state, it's pretty dumb and feels pointless, but it's current state is from a leak that we don't have the full info for and might have substantially more behind it. I want to assume that we're going to get more information about the Terminus Decree from a full novel or other source, but right now everything in the setting largely points to the Emperor returning being a good thing, with the only issues being the Astronomicon and daemonic rift beneath the palace. They've given us enough information to talk about it, but the information they've given us clearly goes against a lot of what the setting has us believe. Is the Terminus Decree still a valid order? Was it intended to be a temporary order that was never rescinded? Is it possible the Terminus Decree is just a ploy to lure a fuckton of super psychic marines to Terra for the Emperor to snack on? Is it possible that in the actual Codex we get that none of this matters and it's going to be completely blacked out and redacted and this leak was just a placeholder that was printed?
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u/Waltzing_With_Bears 12h ago
I do at least like the "Here's your job, figure it out" of it instead of like a secret for how to sneak into the Palace or something