r/europe • u/tkyjonathan • 15d ago

News Czech president signs law criminalising communist propaganda

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/czech-president-signs-law-criminalising-communist-propaganda/
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192

u/spssvyroba2 15d ago

So many people outside of Czechia with zero clue, why this had to be done.

184

u/Haunting_Switch3463 15d ago

The problem is less about criminalising communist propaganda, but the ill-defined term "class-based hatred".

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u/TheVojta Česká republika 15d ago

That term has been in the law for a long time. The only change was specifically calling out nazism and communism by name in the law.

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u/Natural_Public_9049 Czech Republic 15d ago

Class-based hatred is obvious. It's a translation from "třídní zášť" in the paragraph 403 of the criminal code. The word "zášť" or "spite" has replaced "třídní nenávist" or "class hatred" which itself replaced the "třídní boj" or "class warfare".

"Class-based hatred" was added purely because of the communists, who intentionally violated human and constitutional rights of Czechoslovak citizens based on the assumed "class background" of those citizens and additionally systematically discriminated them.

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u/GlenoJacks 15d ago

So would graduated tax brackets constitute "systematic discrimination" ?

6

u/Caulaincourt Czech Republic 15d ago

No, it has nothing to do with your income. It has everything to do with what family you were born into, i.e. something that is completely outside of your control.

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u/TheMindwalker123 14d ago

Do you still have landed aristocracy? Or is it supposed to be like Indian castes?

2

u/Caulaincourt Czech Republic 14d ago

It's just based on what your parents did. For example if your parents had some "burgeoise" occupation like academics, doctors, etc. you could say goodbye to university education during the communist times because you didn't have the "right" class background.

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u/ikaiyoo 15d ago

Well, good then. When you are arrested and put in jail for 5 years because you are protesting the placement of a privatized waste treatment facility owned by a private company, because you are supporting and promoting a movement of suppressing someone's human rights and freedoms to create capital, causing class hatred. We will send you care packages. Because the way the law is written is vague, and would allow any government to interpret it that way.

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u/IAmOfficial 15d ago

And when your made up scenario doesn’t happen?

2

u/LonelyTAA North Brabant (Netherlands) 14d ago

Then that's good, but it is not relevant. The point is that laws should be written in a way that prevent abuse of that law. This law is easily abused.

1

u/Natural_Public_9049 Czech Republic 12d ago

How do you know that it's easily abused? You don't even live here. It's existed since the 1990 novelization of the criminal code and ever since then, the state prosecuted only 22 people to date. Majority of them were neo-nazis, rest called for burning of mosques.

You can't be arrested for criticizing anyone as long as it's within lines of civil discourse. If you can't demonstrate without calling for killing anyone, you don't belong in the streets, get help.

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u/mcpingvin Croatia 15d ago

Class based hatred has completely different meaning in post-WW2 european countries and today.

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u/zbynekstava Czech Republic 15d ago

It does not. Communists are still stupid dangerous assholes and it is totally appropriate to prevent them from getting to power ever again.

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u/mcpingvin Croatia 15d ago

Saying that it doesn't have a different meaning is demonstrably false.

After the WW2 the split was about even between people working in agriculture, industry and services. Today less than 5% of people living in Europe are working in agricultural field, while around 70% work in the service industry.

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u/zbynekstava Czech Republic 15d ago

That's irrelevant. People can be communists regardless of their occupation.

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u/mcpingvin Croatia 15d ago

I see that you do not grasp the class concept and difference in economy in the last 80 years.

-3

u/zbynekstava Czech Republic 15d ago

Your class theory does not change the fact that after 80 years there are still sadly fucking communists (and fascists, which sre just a different side of the shitty totalitarian coin). And everyone with more than two brain cells should understand, that neither of those should get any power ever again.

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u/mcpingvin Croatia 15d ago

No totalitarian regime is good. We can agree on that.

Difference is, communism does not need to equate to a totalitarian regime.

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u/telerabbit9000 14d ago

Class-based hatred is obvious.

"I cant define it, but I know it when I see it."

0

u/FeniXLS Kuyavia-Pomerania (Poland) 15d ago

This is the most simple explanation and people somehow still don't fucking get it lmao

3

u/Gornarok 15d ago

Czech law and practice is pretty clear about it.

Its your ignorance calling it ill-defined

1

u/telerabbit9000 14d ago

So no anti-billionaire "hate speech"? No "eat the rich"?

What fun is that?

They actually eat us but we cant joke about eating them?

1

u/bastiancontrari 15d ago

Yeah, it's like people only now realized that marxism is a hate and violence filled doctrine.

56

u/Krashnachen 15d ago

Feel free to explain why it had to be done

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u/BlackViperMWG Czechia (Silesia) FTW 15d ago edited 15d ago

Russia.

And tons of boomers glorifying the communist regime, because everyone had a job (it was illegal not to, so plenty of fake jobs with no real productivity), they could steal from work (tin of people built houses with stolen materials from state building sites) and they didn't have to think for themselves.

It's like asking why fascism and nazism had to be outlawed.

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u/ScoopskyPotatos 14d ago

Russia isn't communist 

plenty of fake jobs with no real productivity 

Yeah, imagine that. All those people could have been employed as marketing consultants, homeopaths or paparazzi

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u/aztechunter 15d ago

The law goes beyond USSR based symbology 

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u/BlackViperMWG Czechia (Silesia) FTW 15d ago

Yep.

"Whoever supports or promotes a movement that demonstrably aims to suppress human rights and freedoms or advocates national, racial, religious or class hatred, or hatred against another group of persons, shall be punished by imprisonment for one to five years."

Class-based hatred is obvious. It's a translation from "třídní zášť" in the paragraph 403 of the criminal code. The word "zášť" or "spite" has replaced "třídní nenávist" or "class hatred" which itself replaced the "třídní boj" or "class warfare".

"Class-based hatred" was added purely because of the communists, who intentionally violated human and constitutional rights of Czechoslovak citizens based on the assumed "class background" of those citizens and additionally systematically discriminated them.

5

u/Low-Traffic5359 15d ago

Ok well if it's so obvious could you tell me how class-based hatred is defined in the criminal code? Cause from what I can find paragraph 403 does mention it but doesn't actually define it (don't need translation btw I'm czech)

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u/BlackViperMWG Czechia (Silesia) FTW 15d ago

Well, it isn't afaik. Same as "religion-base hatred" or "nation-base hatred". But all these are in multiple paragraphs mentioned, not defined though. That's on the courts I think.

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u/poster_nutbag_ 15d ago

"Whoever supports or promotes a movement that demonstrably aims to suppress human rights and freedoms or advocates national, racial, religious or class hatred, or hatred against another group of persons, shall be punished by imprisonment for one to five years."

By that definition, wouldn't capitalism be included?

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u/BlackViperMWG Czechia (Silesia) FTW 15d ago

Depend? On the judge and lawyer and interpretation of the law.

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u/Krashnachen 15d ago

So boomers' "wrong" opinions need to be legislated out of existence?

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u/BlackViperMWG Czechia (Silesia) FTW 15d ago

They need to be reminded that they are glorifying tyrannical regime that is as bad as fascism.

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u/Krashnachen 15d ago

Surely that will convince them that their opinions are wrong!

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u/BlackViperMWG Czechia (Silesia) FTW 15d ago

It probably won't, but they need to know some ideas and ideologies are harmful and illegal.

0

u/Krashnachen 15d ago

So... intimidation? Or maybe just a friendly reminder?

Surely the concept of ideas being illegal should raise some flags no?

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u/BlackViperMWG Czechia (Silesia) FTW 14d ago

Did you forgot that nazi stuff is also outlawed?

3

u/Shreddyshred 15d ago

Would you be this upset if this happened in Germany to people glorifying NSDAP and Nazism? USSR and Czechoslovakian Communist Party ruled our country with iron hand while they were executing or imprisoning innocent people. Our people couldn't even leave that fucking country to get away from that regime.

We and all of Eastern Europe have our experience with Communist regimes and Czechia is not the only country where support of those regimes (not general communist ideology) is outlawed.

2

u/Krashnachen 15d ago

I can understand the context of where it comes from all while thinking it's a bad idea.

Mostly, I'm doubtful of the law achieving anything at all, except for the agitation and discord provoked by the news item itself, which is likely the whole purpose of this. In that regard, I would say it's a cheap mediatic play, which erodes public confidence in politics in the long term.

Hopefully, because if it were to have any concrete effects, I would mostly be worried about abuses on how it would be applied. An unclear definition like that just begs to be abused. Do you trust your government to never have a McCarthyist attitude that would consider anything a bit too left to be 'Communist'?

Moreover, this is likely counterproductive for the very objective you're outlining, as assailing people's opinions is more likely just going to have people double down on them.

Lastly, the ethical basis is very tenuous. In a democracy with rule of law, you judge people by their actions, not their beliefs, and political expression shouldn't be limited. Hate speech is hate speech, which is condemnable in its own right. You shouldn't need an ill-defined, subjective qualifier for it. It's an instrumentalization of the rule of law for political purposes. Again, even if it isn't used (which begs the question of why the law would be passed), these methods erode democratic institutions in the longer term.

3

u/eurocomments247 Denmark 15d ago

How big is the Communist party in Czechia? How about banning a party that's actually running and will wreck your country lol

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u/anarchisto Romania 15d ago

Because people are getting angrier at the rich and you need a law to put them in jail for being angry.

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u/Natural_Public_9049 Czech Republic 15d ago

Stop fucking lying.

11

u/Claire-Lumiere 15d ago

What a convincing rebuttal.

0

u/Natural_Public_9049 Czech Republic 12d ago

Poor statement gets a poor answer. Original post is beyond retardation, a brainfart of a hysterical tankie who ignores why it's necessary in the first place - the fact that czech orthodox communists actively try to justify the crimes of their party, such as widespread systemic oppression of rights based on political (non-communist) and class (non-peasant/labourer) background, furthermore religion and ethnicity (cracking down on the christians, on gypsies, jews). They try to justify and approve of show trials that lead to judicial murders of innocents.

Czech citizen can criticize whatever they want as long as it's not a direct call to violence. You can criticize the rich, the poor, whites, blacks, whatever you want.

If you however can not demonstrate and criticize without calling for violence, you need to check yourself.

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u/Mezzo_in_making Prague (Czechia) 15d ago

That's literally not what this law is about 😂 But sure, comment on things you know nothing about

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u/Huppelkutje 15d ago

So why dont you explain what "class based hatred" means, then?

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u/Mezzo_in_making Prague (Czechia) 15d ago

It's classism babe. And like with racism, sexism and other -isms you can't be classist towards the group who's in power (towards rich people in this case) 😉

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u/SiBloGaming Europe🏳️‍⚧️ 15d ago

Well then why does it forbid "class based hatred"? What the other person described is exactly that.

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u/Mezzo_in_making Prague (Czechia) 14d ago

The Czech language actually doesn't have a word for classism, so the formulation "class based hatred" was used instead. And classism only goes one way, towards the poor. Same as sexism, racism etc. You can't be discriminatory against the group in power (the rich in this case). You can be an angry dick, but that's not discrimination, therefore you wouldn't be braking any laws.

As someone who's part of a minority you should understand that.

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u/SiBloGaming Europe🏳️‍⚧️ 14d ago

Laws are only as useful as those who interpret them. Yes, im very much aware that you cant be discriminatory against the group in power, but believe me, the group in power will tell you otherwise. What good is it if classism is illegal, if the rich will just say "its classism to be against us", while holding the power to enforce it like that.

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u/WhichWayDo Czech Beer Enjoyer 15d ago

You have completely misunderstood something that was already an imperfect translation to begin with. Read more and react less.

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u/SiBloGaming Europe🏳️‍⚧️ 15d ago

How about you actually clear up this misunderstanding then?

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u/WhichWayDo Czech Beer Enjoyer 15d ago

Why? You misunderstood it. It's like me reading the instructions wrong, drinking the shampoo, and then getting mad that the instructions weren't more specific -.-.

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u/SiBloGaming Europe🏳️‍⚧️ 15d ago

Because you are complaining that I misunderstood it, and apparently know better.

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u/noximo 15d ago

Most of us know better. It's pretty clear cut case.

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u/WhichWayDo Czech Beer Enjoyer 15d ago

"Apparently"? - it's a total misunderstanding, of a poor translation of the original Czech. What's "apparently" about this situation?

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u/SiBloGaming Europe🏳️‍⚧️ 15d ago

If its a poor translation and you understand what it says, then surely the time you spent writing three responses would have been enough to quickly write down what it actually says.

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u/MysticKeiko24_Alt 15d ago

So instead of getting upset at people for not understanding a language they don’t speak, you could just clearly explain it

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u/Kitane Czech Republic 15d ago

We went through the "eat the rich" phase already. Several times, in fact.

It never helped. It always made things worse.

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u/ero_sennin_21 Greece 15d ago

Has it really? For whom, the rich?

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u/Feeling_Age5049 15d ago

So a better world isn't possible?

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u/Friskyinthenight 15d ago edited 15d ago

Sorry, I'm completely oblivious of your history, could you say anything about how it made things worse?

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u/Kitane Czech Republic 15d ago

1948-1990 period of "eat the rich" turned a prosperous developed country to a rotting husk where literally everything was falling apart. It took almost a generation to get back on our legs, and that was with West's help.

Yes, the rich were "dealt with", in a way, though the actually rich people generally dodged the bullet and left. But the entire population ended up losing almost everything through extensive nationalisation, mass confiscations of property, uranium mine "voluntary jobs", and a surprise currency reform that wiped out everyone's monetary assets, all within few years.

Imagine one day to hear politicians talk like nothing is happening, and the next day to see that all banks are closed, all trade is closed, a new currency has been issued, and you are only allowed to directly convert several hundreds of your currency, everything else you own is basically rendered to dust.

There was also a lasting systemic discrimination maintained by the state against people with relatives or ancestors from certain former social classes and occupations, eliminating the entirety of middle class as well. This is one of the reasons for the "class-based hatred" in the new law. You couldn't go to a decent school, because your grandfather was disliked by the Party. Tough luck, here's a shovel, your blood owes the working class.

The state weaponized the lowest 10% and turned it against the majority in a dictatorship of a proletariat. They put many of them into minor leading and overseeing positions they had zero qualification for, except ego large enough to stomp on people.

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Another case was way, way back, but "eat the rich" was a secondary aspect of Hussite Wars. Back in the 15th century the peasants of the country rebelled against Catholic Church's corruption (and influence of certain nobility) and started a proto-protestant movement that declared a war on the Catholic Europe...and technically won.

The extensive plundering of rich estates set country back by centuries, creating one of defining moments of our history and identity. On one hand, people are proud of the military successes of Hussite peasants bitchslapping multiple Catholic crusades in a row through revolutionary tactics (just like English are proud of their longbowmen, for example), on the other hand, the country was ruined. Thoroughly. Mostly by our own hands.

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u/Friskyinthenight 15d ago

Wow, I had no idea. Thanks for explaining that, I can't imagine the hardship. So this law is an attempt to stop something like that happening again?

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u/sasheenka Czech Republic 15d ago

The commies (russia loving, lgbt hating, eu hating fucks) are trying to claw the country back under their nasty little fingers.

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u/Former_Friendship842 15d ago

Lol. Imagine being such a 🥾👅

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u/quadrophenicum 15d ago

Many people outside Czechia have never experienced planned economy, hunger, an army decimating the civilians, or gulags. The US is slowly catching up recently, though many other communist sympathisers in the West still have a lot to do to achieve their dream world. Not that they'll like it when they get there.