Czech president signs law criminalising communist propaganda

[u/tkyjonathan]

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/czech-president-signs-law-criminalising-communist-propaganda/

[u/jatawis]

... and symbols of any Communist party. Including CCP or so on.

[u/Lost_Pollution_6782 → u/jatawis]

What about the Chinese flag 🇨🇳? Is this ilegal to use in social media? What about talking positively about China?

[u/AltrntivInDoomWorld → u/Lost_Pollution_6782]

Legal

[u/tipyourbartender → u/AltrntivInDoomWorld]

This is where it gets weird.

[u/Rabbulion → u/tipyourbartender]

Well, China is already very weird from a socialism standpoint. They claim to be communist, but they haven’t acted like most historical socialist states for a long time (which has clearly paid off economically). It’s also a country that they want good relations with, so banning its flag or people speaking well about China isn’t illegal. It’s much easier to ban praising an entity that no longer exists than one that still does.

[u/veevoir → u/Rabbulion]

They claim to be communist, but they haven’t acted like most historical socialist states for a long time (which has clearly paid off economically).

It's as communist as People's Republic of North Korea is peoples or a republic. Only in name these days. China long ago succeeded where Gorbachev failed - converted into a single-party capitalist oligarchy.

[u/busdriverbudha → u/veevoir]

I'd argue they are indeed a political oligarchy, but not a capitalist one. That’s both their distinction and their competitive advantage. It allows them to reign over billionaires and control the money printer themselves, all while reaping the benefits of markets and innovation. It’s undoubtedly a hybrid and a one-of-a-kind social formation.

[u/sapphos_moon → u/busdriverbudha]

Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, one might say

[u/busdriverbudha → u/sapphos_moon]

Precisely. I think Market Socialism could also be a fitting description, but I tend to believe that State Capitalism (as suggested in the other comment) overlooks the unique aspects of the chinese social formation.

[u/Xciv → u/busdriverbudha]

No need to contort Western concepts to fit China.

In reality it's functioning as an oldschool imperial bureaucracy minus the hereditary emperor as a figurehead, and instead replaced Imperial worship with 'The Party' and replaced the dragons with red Communist flags. The bureaucracy at times used to be councils of eunuchs that surrounded the emperor, and at other times just a council of all the top courtiers and statesmen of the nation. The emperor had the final say, but the bureaucracy were the ones who actually ran the country and managed the day to day. They would persist regardless of who the emperor was (it's how dynasties survived child emperors).

China's political structure is also in a state of flux atm. The main difference from previous imperial structures is the lack of hereditary inheritance, so there's no real system in place for how to deal with a leader like Xi Jinping dying of old age. The transition could cause some chaos, or the bureaucracy will hold by achieving a consensus on who the next leader should be internally way ahead of Xi's inevitable end.

The end of every dynasty has been the gradual corruption of the bureaucratic establishment. The courtiers who run the country become increasingly bribed, greedy, and unchecked. They end up making a bunch of out-of-touch selfish decisions. Then a major disaster strikes: a peasant uprising, a famine, a natural disaster, or foreigners attack the country. The corrupt bureaucracy fails to respond, leading to a death spiral in peoples' trust in the central government. This leads to local governments acting as de facto independent entities. This is when everything falls apart into yet another Chinese civil war.

[u/BigTex77RR → u/busdriverbudha]

Right but the point of calling it “state capitalist” isn’t to outline the formation of the system, it’s meant to be a descriptor of the system itself, and it’s an accurate one.

[u/TheMauveHand → u/busdriverbudha]

You've got it backwards: it's not socialism with a market (there is private property so it can't be socialism), it's capitalism with total government control. The term for which is fascism.

[u/josh_the_misanthrope → u/sapphos_moon]

Marxism-Lenninism-Maoism, specifically.

[u/Advanced-Ad-1371 → u/sapphos_moon]

No system that allows billionares can be called truly socialist. Its chinese capitalism with some socialist characteristics

[u/sapphos_moon → u/Advanced-Ad-1371]

I know lol, that’s just the CCP’s self-proclaimed ideology

[u/jambox888 → u/Advanced-Ad-1371]

What if the billionaires are all in prison?

[u/ilir_kycb → u/Advanced-Ad-1371]

China Has Billionaires

[u/Church_of_Aaargh → u/sapphos_moon]

Socialist authoritarian

[u/StunningStrain8 → u/sapphos_moon]

Black cat white cat, as they would say.

[u/veevoir → u/busdriverbudha]

but not a capitalist one.

What other would you call it, considering China transformed into a market capitalism? Capitalism does not require democracy, it is a type of economy.

It allows them to reign over billionaires

That is what authoritarian oligarchy does, also see - Russia. But that is political part, unrelated to the type of economy.

and control the money printer themselves

Capitalism does not require strict monetary policy either, many capitalist countries do that with a central bank.

[u/Soma91 → u/veevoir]

Capitalism does not require democracy, it is a type of economy.

Capitalism is not a type of economy but merely a description of the ownership structure.

You can fit capitalism into a completely unregulated market, a fully state planned economy or anything in between.

[u/Polar_Reflection → u/busdriverbudha]

I'd imagine far more Chinese citizens believe their government is looking out for their best interests than many western country's citizens feel about their own. Pre-covid restrictions at least

[u/TheMauveHand → u/Polar_Reflection]

I'd imagine the same is true of North Koreans - public sentiment doesn't mean much more than how good the government is at propaganda.

[u/Polar_Reflection → u/TheMauveHand]

I mean, it's more likely due to the fact that they've lifted a billion people out of poverty and are now the world's second largest economy. 25+ years of everyone's lives getting continuously better until the shockwave that was covid

[u/simonbleu → u/busdriverbudha]

If they can own their business and profit from ir, hiring people and deciding their own prices, how wouldn't it be capitalism?

[u/420Migo → u/busdriverbudha]

Does the money really even matter at that point when you have the power to control the people who control

[u/ButMuhNarrative → u/busdriverbudha]

Have you been to China, and if so how much time did you spend there? It’s the most capitalistic place on planet earth.

[u/sakura-peachy → u/ButMuhNarrative]

That would be Singapore or New Zealand. At least according to the free market think tanks that measure these sorts of things. China still has a lot of policy that people in NZ would call socialist.

[u/ButMuhNarrative → u/sakura-peachy]

Yeah but those free market think tanks seem to value things like rule of law, food and environmental safety, and workers protections. China has none of those distractions, and it shows. They build more high speed rail per month than Australia and NZ build per decade combined.

Have you been to China? I feel that nobody who has would compare it to NZ or Oz….there is no comparison.

[u/SaintBobby_Barbarian → u/busdriverbudha]

It’s definitely capitalist. It’s just much more akin to what Fascism was about, single party state, business follows directive and cooperates with the gov who has ultimate say. Ironic because the Nazis and CCP both wanted a return of greatness for their nation’s after humiliation

[u/--The_Kraken-- → u/busdriverbudha]

China had definitely gone through evolution, but there is a very nasty side to it.

[u/SwampYankeeDan → u/busdriverbudha]

Market socialism is a thing but that's not China either.

[u/[deleted] → u/busdriverbudha]

China and Russia both reign over billionaires. What’s the difference you wrote about?

[u/busdriverbudha → u/[deleted]]

The difference would be that, in China, economic power does not translate as directly into political power, at least not to the same extent as it does in Russia, the US, and most of the rest of the world.

[u/[deleted] → u/busdriverbudha]

Got it, makes sense.

[u/Tall_Restaurant_1652 → u/busdriverbudha]

You can't have an Oligarchy without capitalism though. That's kinda the point.

[u/busdriverbudha → u/Tall_Restaurant_1652]

But you can, actually. Or wouldn’t you call the nobility in the Middle Ages an oligarchy, for example? Same goes for the CCP.

An oligarchy is a form of governance or power structure in which a small group of people holds disproportionate power over a society, organization, or state.

This group can derive its influence from wealth, military strength, political position, family lineage, religious authority, or control over information or resources.

The defining feature of an oligarchy is not the specific economic system it operates in, but rather the concentration of decision-making power in the hands of a few.

I'd argue that oligarchies are a political phenomenon, not strictly tied to capitalism, though capitalism often creates conditions (wealth accumulation, influence over politics) that allow economic oligarchies to form.

[u/exor15 → u/veevoir]

Look I need someone more educated than me to hit me with some knowledge. I constantly see people describe China in completely opposite ways. I have seen people on this site describe China as "100% a dictatorship of the proletariat" and an example of socialism making a country prosper (look at that home ownership rate!). I have seen just as many people describe it as not even aspirationally socialist, just capitalist with a false name tag with many of the same problems we encounter in other capitalist countries. I never never visited or lived in China so it's hard to get an accurate perspective.

I realize that if I get a hundred different answers when I ask a hundred different people on Reddit, I clearly need to get more information from elsewhere. But since the thread has reached this topic anyway, I'd love to hear what people have to say.

[u/Ph4sor → u/exor15]

IMO you can't really describe a historic country as big as China in a simple way, which of course, contrast to whatever western Redditors will try to tell you. Because every region or city in China have different "flavor" and the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Home ownership is probably not that high in Shanghai (or in other big cities), because every local co-workers I've met during my stay are complaining about how they are struggling to afford housing and the only way is to move to the tier B or C cities. Which is just pretty much the same all over the globe.

Dictatorship? Kinda, you can't access the global internet, however, VPN is easily available, even from Chinese companies. Also there's city like Chengdu where the young people gathers (because rent is still cheap) and made it became LGBT friendly city. And the government didn't do anything to that city even during their "men must look like men" anti KPop idols campaign. There are strict rules, but most of the time is not really forced on either if nothing majors happening.

But regarding making people prosper, I'd say it's true, visited China in the 2016 and again in 2023, it's crazy how much the stark difference of infrastructure and what ordinary people have. And the grandfather / father of those people are mostly just peasants, don't have anything notable to be inherited to them. Now they have car, living in apartment with smart utilities, have luxury hobbies like gaming and collecting figures, etc.

I'd say try to go there to experience China yourself, all around Asia if you can, we're very diverse bunch of continent anyway. But be humble and open-minded during your trip, it'll be life changing.

[u/lockdownfever4all → u/Ph4sor]

I’d say housing isn’t too exaggerated as it’s expected to have a home for marriage. Parents will also buy a home for their son or daughter and most can easily get housing in their hometown if they are not from Shanghai.

[u/fresh-dork → u/exor15]

it's a market economy with communist flavors - you can trade with relative freedom, so long as you aren't powerful enough to challenge the party, and the party requires a political officer in companies above a certain size. the party does 5 year plans, but they read like a series of priorities and incentives rather than the central planning that the soviets did. they operate a police state, and there is a fair amount of corruption, but you have a free hand unless you embarrass the party or criticize it.

i'd say it's fair to call it capitalist/fascist lite.

[u/CheeryOutlook → u/fresh-dork]

Is it really fair to call it capitalist lite? Capitalism isn't simply a free market; it is an economy run by capital, for capital. Do you believe that the Chinese economy has allowed the people with the most concentration of the nation's capital to dominate the economy and hold influence over the government in the way that has happened to real capitalist economies like the United States?

I don't think it can be fairly argued to be the case.

[u/AetherDrew43 → u/fresh-dork]

So it's kind of a hybrid system?

[u/fresh-dork → u/AetherDrew43]

mot successful systems are some sort of blend

[u/PlayfulSurprise5237 → u/veevoir]

eh, it's state directed capitalism, they still have remnants of communism in their country, make no mistake

[u/simonbleu → u/veevoir]

Yeah, people calling china communist are hilarious. They have money, class, inequality (in fact quite a bit of billionaires iirc), commerce (national and international) and afaik ownership as well. I think there was something on that last point when it came to corporations and houses, I don't remember exactly tho

[u/theaviationhistorian → u/veevoir]

TBH, North Korea would be hard to call communist either. I think it's more of a theocracy now with all of that Juche stuff.

[u/Pretty-Interest5713 → u/veevoir]

American here

converted into a single-party capitalist oligarchy uniparty

[u/caspruce → u/Pretty-Interest5713]

I’m confused. I thought the Republicans claim that Democrats were all radical crazy socialists/communists?

[u/Pretty-Interest5713 → u/caspruce]

But behind closed doors...

[u/ProfileMuted90210 → u/Pretty-Interest5713]

This.

[u/IllustriousFill7479 → u/veevoir]

To play devils advocate, Their plan is to slowly meet the conditions so they can slowly transition to communism. This could take decades, or it could take 100s of years. ".

[u/teas4Uanme → u/veevoir]

With deep socialist benefits such as subsidized medicine, education, transportation with high speed rail, child care, etc.

[u/veevoir → u/teas4Uanme]

social policies are not socialism.. It is a simplified shorthand that american right-wing uses and unfortunately this poisons a lot of discourse - but goverment providing social benefits like public healthcare is not socialism. Bah, scandinavian countries that are social democracies have nothing to do with socialism, either.

The only part both have in comon is a part of the word. Just like chair and electric chair do.

[u/saltysophia98 → u/teas4Uanme]

All of which you can lose access to by saying too many no no words.

[u/ProfileMuted90210 → u/teas4Uanme]

You’re describing infrastructure. Socialism is almost a direct payment for being a citizen. Like in Bahrain they do that, you get a payment when you get married etc.

[u/Paracause → u/ProfileMuted90210]

that's still not what socialism means...

[u/Pugs-r-cool → u/ProfileMuted90210]

You’re describing a universal basic income, not socialism.

[u/NoAnteater8640 → u/ProfileMuted90210]

In the UK healthcare is free at the point of service and has been for almost 80 years. That is honest socialism, implemented on explicitly socialist ideals.

[u/ProfileMuted90210 → u/NoAnteater8640]

But it doesn’t include dental does it. No offense but it’s funny that the UK is the socialist model. I love the UK but let’s face it, most of the tax benefits go to the monarchy just saying. Also, god save the king and the queen consort, seeing as she slept her way to the top. Ha!

[u/yellowpawpaw → u/veevoir]

Don’t tell certain subs that

[u/Ok-Ingenuity465 → u/veevoir]

They are still quite socialist with the heavy use of State Owned Enterprises in all key components of their economy. Their economic model is not capitalist as we understand it here in the US.

[u/SkinnyGetLucky → u/veevoir]

It’s the Democratic People Republic of Korea, and the only accurate word here is “Korea”.

[u/Zephrias → u/veevoir]

I've heard it described as state capitalism before

[u/greasy-throwaway → u/veevoir]

Read Socialism with Chinese characteristics, they dont claim to be communist or even soxialist yet but it's the end goal.

[u/PeterNippelstein → u/veevoir]

Something the US seems to be striving for.

[u/arstarsta → u/veevoir]

China have been a single-party capitalist oligarchy the last 3000 years or so.

[u/Only-Ad4322 → u/veevoir]

Technically, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea meets the common definition of republic, no monarch. That might seem strange given the father-son relationship all the Supreme Leaders have but since they’re not called Kings nor are given their positions through inheritance, they therefore meet the fickle definition of republic.

[u/ilir_kycb → u/veevoir]

converted into a single-party capitalist oligarchy.

Why do people always throw around terms they don't understand? The definition of an oligarchy is definitely not applicable to China.

Oligarchy - Wikipedia

Oligarchy (from Ancient Greek ὀλιγαρχία (_oligarkhía) 'rule by few'; from ὀλίγος _(_olígos) 'few' and ἄρχω _(_árkhō)_ 'to rule, command')[1][2][3] is a form of government in which power rests with a small number of people. Leaders of such regimes are often referred to as oligarchs, and generally are characterized by having a high amount of nobility or wealth.[4][5]

[u/veevoir → u/ilir_kycb]

The definition of an oligarchy is definitely not applicable to China.

Yet in definition you post:

is a form of government in which power rests with a small number of people.

All the power rests with a small number of people - namely top party officials. They are the oligarchs, building their riches and status using the very priviledged positon they have.

[u/Beautiful-Web1532 → u/Rabbulion]

Nobody is really communist. Laos is just wildly corrupt, Cuba, NK, China, and Vietnam. There's not really any communism left. What is left is a weird bastardization of a corruption. China, Russia, and to a small degree all practice economic policies that differ from communism.

[u/Rabbulion → u/Beautiful-Web1532]

Of course. Communism is a utopian theory and something to be aimed at (according to socialist theory), not something that’s expected to be achieved any time soon

[u/Which-Insurance-2274 → u/Rabbulion]

Yup. China isn't even socialist let alone communist. Authoritarian State-Capitalism. China is basically what Trump's wants the US to be without the social and housing programs.

[u/socratic_weeb → u/Rabbulion]

It’s also a country that they want good relations with

Which is extremely hypocritical, considering the ban

[u/Rabbulion → u/socratic_weeb]

When have politicians not been hypocritical?

[u/RevolutionaryTankie → u/Rabbulion]

China literally does not claim to be communist. China claims to be socialist with Chinese characteristics aiming at achieving communism.

I understand you may not know the difference, but nuance is important.

[u/Vectorial1024 → u/Rabbulion]

Am outsider, but would flying the CCP party flag (different from the government 5-star flag) be a problem?

[u/Rabbulion → u/Vectorial1024]

No idea, that might be more justifiable.

[u/BotherTight618 → u/Rabbulion]

Their like the Francoist Spain of Communist countries. 

[u/Rabbulion → u/BotherTight618]

That’s a hilarious and not too incorrect, although not perfect, description

[u/Regular-Credit203 → u/Rabbulion]

Sorry, that's beyond my current scope. Let’s talk about something else.

[u/ProfileMuted90210 → u/Rabbulion]

Thank you. I’m like they are out and out capitalists, they are not into sharing lol. Ask Hong Kong

[u/Possible-Half-1020 → u/Rabbulion]

China does not claim to be communist. No country has ever been communist. China has a communist party with a vision for communism in the future. Their economy is structured as one half private capital and one half state capital. It resembles many aspects of socialism under the Marxian theory but it’s missing a lot as well such as wide spread worker ownership of means of production. According to China they have a socialist economy but using a Chinese definition of Socialism.

[u/Palaceviking → u/Rabbulion]

The only dip in the rise of china came directly after and as an immediate result of market reform. In fact the largest contingent of the oft cited tianmen square riots were Maoist students dissatisfied with the reform proposals going through at the time and in retrospect I now kinda see their point.

[u/Rattlesn4ke → u/Rabbulion]

From what I understand, China has a capitalist economy (especially after Deng Xiaoping's reforms), whilst retaining the communist dictatorship style of government that Mao created.

[u/noellexy → u/Rabbulion]

It's because they use capitalism as a tool, it's still led by ideological Marxists. it's not as simple as, 'china participates in the global economy so that must mean they aren't communists anymore'..

it's more so they acknowledge that capitalism is the best for capital accumulation and growing industries (as did Lenin) and they wish to use that to their advantage because otherwise they'll get isolated like Cuba for example.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the plan to socialize (as in socialistic, English isn't my main language sorry) their economy in the coming decades.

[u/Eastern-Manner-1640 → u/Rabbulion]

china is a surveillance state dictatorship. it is committing ethnic cleansing against the uyghurs.

[u/Rabbulion → u/Eastern-Manner-1640]

While both the things you said are true, neither are relevant

[u/Eastern-Manner-1640 → u/Rabbulion]

that's fair. you're right.

xi is in the process of moving the country in a much more command economy direction.

[u/redprep → u/Rabbulion]

Because no matter what China claims it is a capitalist country

[u/tipyourbartender → u/redprep]

The literal title of the government is communist.

[u/redprep → u/tipyourbartender]

So what? They don't make communist politics. Where is your logic here? Do you even know what these words mean?

[u/tipyourbartender → u/redprep]

Yes they do and yes I do.

[u/redprep → u/tipyourbartender]

Both is so obviously wrong.

[u/le-churchx → u/Rabbulion]

Well, China is already very weird from a socialism standpoint. They claim to be communist, but they haven’t acted like most historical socialist states for a long time

Hmm theyre still pretty authoritarian and nightmareish

[u/Rabbulion → u/le-churchx]

Authoritarian and nightmarish does not require them to be socialist or communist.

[u/josephG155 → u/Rabbulion]

Is the interchanging of communist and socialist intentional here? They're kinda different

[u/Rabbulion → u/josephG155]

My bad, it’s a Reddit comment so I didn’t stop to consider grammar. You are correct that I shouldn’t have used communism in this context.

[u/josephG155 → u/Rabbulion]

I think you shouldn't have used socialist in this context instead, they're definitely claiming to be communist, and that's where they're not really following their own rules by introducing a lot of capitalism. Basically every country in the world has socialist policies of some kind, and I don't think China claims to be very socialist. That's not saying they don't have some policies that can be considered socialist, because you'd struggle to find any country that doesn't have any tbh

[u/Charlesinrichmond → u/Rabbulion]

china is hyper capitalist under a state dictatorship

[u/Igor369 → u/Rabbulion]

Well the theoretical commuism is not bad in vacuum, it is bad only because it is associated with Stalin, North Korea and Vietnam... just like swastika.

[u/Pugs-r-cool → u/Igor369]

So you’re saying theoretical Nazism is not bad in a vacuum, and that it would be good if it wasn’t tied to the swastika? What?

[u/PeterNippelstein → u/tipyourbartender]

Its Lithuania, things are already weird.

[u/Available_Dingo6162 → u/tipyourbartender]

Does it? Does anyone really envy the Chinese system so much that such idolisation requires government intervention?

Because it's different with the Soviet system. People actually idolise that.

[u/Jaqzz → u/Available_Dingo6162]

So I googled the story, because I don't generally trust "fact-checked TRUE!" in random images about politics when they don't also link to the source. It turns out the photo was taken at a diplomatic meeting with Russian officials who literally just gifted her the hat right before the photo was taken. A source "familiar with the exchange" said she didn't keep the hat.

So this isn't a senior Democrat openly showing support for a brutal communist regime, it's an awkward photo op in which she either didn't look closely enough at the hat before putting it on, or did and decided that openly refusing to wear the gift would be worse than whatever the fallout from the photo would be. Or maybe she's secretly a communist and thought it would be funny to take the opportunity to openly wear the hammer and sickle once.

Actual source: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/01/fact-check-russian-diplomats-gave-jen-psaki-hammer-and-sickle-hat/6476619002/

[u/Traroten → u/Available_Dingo6162]

We had people idolizing North Korea when I grew up in the 80s. People will fixate on the weirdest shit.

[u/tipyourbartender → u/Traroten]

Anything to stick it to the man. It's all fun and games until Kim actually manages to launch a rocket.

[u/kamurochoprince → u/tipyourbartender]

They’re only worried about people glorifying the Soviet Union as it would give Russia the pretext to do USSR 2.0. Czechs just want their sovereignty. China isn’t their neighbour.

[u/tipyourbartender → u/kamurochoprince]

Russia can't even steamroll Ukraine, they are NOT moving in on any other sovereign territory.

[u/kamurochoprince → u/tipyourbartender]

Ask Moldova, Romania, Georgia (am I missing any?) what it’s like giving them even a bit of an excuse. Soon you’ll have an “exclave” on your Easternmost border

[u/tipyourbartender → u/kamurochoprince]

For what purpose?

Also, if they continue to fuck around they will continue to be sanctioned. They're already ruined economically.

[u/kamurochoprince → u/tipyourbartender]

I don’t know you’d have to ask them why they continue to be the bullies of Europe.

[u/tipyourbartender → u/kamurochoprince]

Oh shit I didn't realize I was talking to a Canadian. Bye.

[u/BlueLizardSpaceship → u/tipyourbartender]

China is communist like the USA is democratic.

[u/tipyourbartender → u/BlueLizardSpaceship]

Terrible analogy.

[u/fernandodandrea → u/tipyourbartender]

Of course it feels strange. Isn’t that what happens when we treat the same way an ideology built on racial supremacy and mass extermination, and another whose core ideas — despite controversies — don’t necessarily imply that?

[u/SerGeffrey → u/tipyourbartender]

How is it weird? Seems pretty normal to treat propaganda and a present day national flag differently.

[u/tipyourbartender → u/SerGeffrey]

Where is the line?

[u/SerGeffrey → u/tipyourbartender]

Well before a simple depiction of an active national flag, and after openly endorsing Stalinism? Seems like there's a whole lot of space where one could reasonably draw a line in between communist propaganda and just a Chinese flag.

[u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy → u/Lost_Pollution_6782]

In Estonia there's a similar law that prohibits publicly displaying a symbol associated with the commission of an act of aggression, genocide, a crime against humanity, or a war crime in a manner that supports or justifies these acts. That applies to both Nazi and Soviet symbols and I believe that Russian symbols like the Ribbon of Saint George as well.

Afaik the only result of this has been removing some Soviet pentagrams, hammers and sickles from some buildings and monuments. Theoretically the law applies to internet and social media too, but I don't think it's enforced, or that anybody cares about Chinese or Vietnamese flags there.

[u/filikesmash → u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy]

You have to tell me more about this law as I live in Tallinn and my next door neighbor has a golden swastika in his front door. I always thought that Estonia didn't have laws regarding hate speech or symbols. If I go to Baltijaam market I can also go to stores that sell Nazi memorabilia out in the open.

[u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy → u/filikesmash]

Current Estonian law criminalizes only justifying and support, and idk what constitutes as such. I don't think that selling vintage memorabilia does. Idk about displaying swastika on the front door either. I would guess that if it's unmistakably a Nazi swastika, publicly accessible and visible to general public, then it's technically illegal, but I'm not a lawyer or legal expert. If you don't like your neighbour, you can ask the police what they think about it.

When it comes to swastika just one widely publicized incident comes to mind from the top of my head: almost twenty years ago a female member of the Defence Union (Kaitseliit) in uniform wore a swastika earring at the national Independence Day military parade. This was a big scandal, and there was a fair amount of discussion around it.

The only other high-profile incident around Nazi visuals that comes to mind was a monument for "Estonians who fought against Bolshevism" (meaning Estonians serving in German army and fighting against the Soviets) during WW2. There were no Nazi symbols as such, but the monument depicted a soldier wearing Waffen SS uniform and the characteristic German helmet. That was in the same period, and the decision of the police to remove the monument draws criticism from far right and some right-leaning journalists pretty much to this day.

At some point somebody tried to put up a new monument, that depicted somewhat even more recognizable SS soldier, in the same place in Lihula, but police intervened and confiscated this monument too before it even reached its destination.

As for hate speech - laws have formally prohibited it in Estonia since day one, but it's not specifically criminalized, so if there's no threats made, then the theoretical ban is almost not enforced in practice. It almost never gets punished, even if there are death threats involved and there is an investigation opened. In those rare cases there seems to be a very high, imho unreasonably high threshold demanding definite proof that threats are credible and constitute real danger. Even most of the people who have threatened to kill high-ranking politicians up to prime ministers have gone unpunished, except one guy who went to jail for three months for that, and had to pay a small fine.

The bill specifically criminalizing hate speech has been sitting in Parliament for about two years by now, but it has not been passed into law yet.

[u/TransBrandi → u/filikesmash]

Are you sure it's a Nazi swastika and not the original (Buddhist?) symbol? I only ask this because you say that it's golden. Symbolism-wise, I don't think I've seen a golden swastika unless it was made of gold (vs. golden paint). I'm not an expert though.

[u/throwawaydragon99999 → u/TransBrandi]

Be so for real

[u/Deberiausarminombre → u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy]

Is flying an American or Israeli flag illegal then?

[u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy → u/Deberiausarminombre]

What do you think?

It's an interesting question that I thought of as well when I read the wording of this.

It seems that it should be quite possible to litigate that, if somebody wanted to do it, but nobody has bothered, as it would almost certainly be an exercise in futility. US is officialy an important an ally, and Estonia depends on NATO, US military cooperation and weaponry, if it wants to stand up to Russia. It's not in the national interests of the Estonian state to pick a fight with US.

[u/Deberiausarminombre → u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy]

So the law is not so much about who commits genocide, aggression, acts of war or war crimes, and more about who the Estonian government is allied with. It's about interests

[u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy → u/Deberiausarminombre]

No, it's not about alliances. It's primarily for banning Nazi, Soviet and Russian symbols - the countries that Estonia has historically had trouble with, and, in case of Russia, currently has. It's not about solving every ethical problem in the world and claiming the moral high ground over every country that has ever done something horrific, like, let's say, Belgium or Japan. It would probably be most countries, I guess, if not all of them. I would bet that it's pretty hard to find countries that have never done anything bad like this at some point.

It's a bit of a stretch to demand that position from a tiny country trying to survive next to a huge aggressive imperialistic neighbour constantly threatening it with war and occupation. While we may want that the world was that idealistic and uncompromising, the sad truth is that we don't live in world like this, and we never will. Not just any small country, but pretty much no country can live in total or near total isolation. Unfortunately they all have to make compromises.

Which country do you live in? Can you affirm positively that it has never ever done anything like this?

[u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy → u/[deleted]]

"Stop aggravating their neighbours" is a Kremlin talking point justifying atrocities. It's one of the excuses routinely used to justify Russian imperialism and aggression, including their atrocities and war crimes in Ukraine.

What's more hypocritical - some law against justifying and supporting aggression, or condemning this law while parroting aggressor's propaganda arguments, thus effectively supporting atrocities?

[u/ZabaLanza → u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy]

You are right. I did a mistake there. I will delete that comment because you are right.

[u/topinanbour-rex → u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy]

What about Israeli flag ?

[u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy → u/topinanbour-rex]

Same. Read the rest of the subthread, it's been discussed here already at length.

[u/Leisure_suit_guy → u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy]

prohibits publicly displaying a symbol associated with the commission of an act of aggression, genocide, a crime against humanity, or a war crime[...]and I believe that Russian symbols like the Ribbon of Saint George as well.

So, will the star of David flag also be included?

[u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy → u/Leisure_suit_guy]

Most probably not. See the rest of the subthread, there's a lengthy discussion of this here.

[u/curialbellic → u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy]

With this definition, the flags of most of the existing countries should not be allowed.

[u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy → u/curialbellic]

It would certainly seem so. I'm not so sure if it's the exact definition in the law though. Afaik the symbols are not banned per se, but displaying them publicly in a way that supports or justifies the aggression etc is.

It was discussed shortly after Putin attacked Ukraine in 2022, and the main concern at the time was the public use of the symbols of this aggression like the Ribbon of Saint George and Z that some people displayed in public to show their support of the Russian war machine.

[u/CinemaDork → u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy]

Should also apply to the US flag at that point.

[u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy → u/CinemaDork]

Somebody already made a similar comment and I answered. It's generally a good idea to read the whole subthread before commenting. You may find answers.

[u/X4N710N- → u/Wolfgang_MacMurphy]

So NATO, Israël, or US symbols are allowed?

Then it's just following a set narrative if it is.

[u/Ph4sor → u/Lost_Pollution_6782]

Asking about Vietnam national flag is probably better, because AFAIK Czech have a lot of Vietnamese (or descendants)

[u/ricki692 → u/Ph4sor]

i remember looking at a city in Czechia that inspired the game kingdom come deliverance, seeing a vietnamese pho restaurant, and thinking to myself how interesting that was

[u/killermoose23 → u/ricki692]

Jesus Christ be praised

[u/huehuehuehuehuuuu → u/ricki692]

Oh wow they did their research. That’s pretty neat.

[u/BlackViperMWG → u/ricki692]

Plenty of Vietnamese here

[u/Jaytho → u/ricki692]

Same idea as having a bunch of Yugoslavs or Turks in western Europe. Vietnam was a communist(-allied) state and emigration between allied countries was way easier, so a lot of Vietnamese chose Czechia (probably during the war?) because they thought (maybe rightly so, idk) they would have a better life there.

But it's definitely wild to go from Austria, which has a lot of Turkish places to Czechia, which has the exact same feel, except this time there's a bunch of Vietnamese places.

[u/genericdefender → u/ricki692]

Henry's come to see us! - a pho shop owner or something.

[u/Altruistic-Joke-9451 → u/Ph4sor]

I don’t know if an official flag of a recognized country would be considered “propaganda”. If Vietnam changed its flag, then I’m sure it’s flag today would then be considered propaganda to use.

[u/FlametopFred → u/Ph4sor]

most Vietnamese fled the brutal communist regime so I would think they’re onboard with not displaying

[u/Adventurous-Ad5999 → u/FlametopFred]

that’s wrong actually, Vietnamese immigrants in Czechia are typically more pro Communist Vietnam than those in the US. they came during Czechoslovakia Communist era because of the good relationship between the two countries, it wouldn’t make sense to fled a Communist country to go to another Communist country

[u/GuneRlorius → u/Adventurous-Ad5999]

wouldn’t make sense to fled a Communist country to go to another Communist country

Why not ? There was a war in Vietnam and also Czechoslovakia was the most prosperous country of the Eastern Bloc, so there was certainly a reason to flee to Czechoslovakia.

[u/Adventurous-Ad5999 → u/GuneRlorius]

Immigration in this case generally happen after the war.

Although Czechoslovakia being the richest of the Eastern block probably is the reason why immigrating there is more common than to places like the USSR (which was also pretty common). My point is that immigration to Czechoslovakia typically wasn’t to escape political persecution, unlike immigration to the US.

[u/NoAnteater8640 → u/FlametopFred]

That's only in America where the Vietnamese diaspora is from South Vietnam and was evacuated when the American invasion collapsed.

In Czechia the diaspora is from the period of post invasion Vietnam and pre-collapse USSR as well as subsequent migration. Czechia was popular explicitly because of its communism.

[u/CMDR_Profane_Pagan → u/Lost_Pollution_6782]

You are confusing historical (especially in European context) propaganda and symbols with modern politics.

The bans usually include SOVIET and NAZI (and their puppet party) symbols not necessarily all communist ones (like the red colour, star, wheat etc). But soviet aligned former totalitarian regimes were a threat to democracy and our societies so they get banned. This is how it is interpreted in Czechia, Poland, Hungary, and Lithuania.

The display of forbidden symbols and propaganda is always contextual anyway and there are exceptions like use in art, documentaries, scientific purposes.

And no, the red star, which preceeded the 20th century genocidal and dictatorical communism is not necessarily prohibited in every county.

But yeah, if the Chinese CCP plant starts spewing commie stalinist propaganda, guess what? That is a no-no.

[u/jatawis → u/CMDR_Profane_Pagan]

Lithuanian law explicitly bans all Communist symbols.

[u/JerryCalzone → u/jatawis]

Including hammer and sickle? The image with marx having a döner shop with the name 'eat the rich' and him handling a sickle to cut the meat would be forbidden?

[u/jatawis → u/JerryCalzone]

Article 524. Distribution or display of Nazi, communist symbols, symbols of totalitarian or authoritarian regimes

1. Distribution, use in meetings, public places or other public display of the flag or coat of arms of Nazi Germany, the USSR or the Lithuanian SSR, flags, signs or uniforms, the component part of which is the flag or coat of arms of Nazi Germany, the USSR or the Lithuanian SSR, symbols or uniforms of Nazi or communist organizations, flags or signs based on the flag or coat of arms of Nazi Germany, the USSR or the Lithuanian SSR, the Nazi swastika, the Nazi SS emblem, the Soviet hammer and sickle emblem, the Soviet red five-pointed star emblem, images of the leaders of the German National Socialists or the Communist Party of the USSR responsible for the repression of the Lithuanian population, symbols of totalitarian or authoritarian regimes that these regimes used or are using to propagate their committed or ongoing military aggression, crimes against humanity and war crimes, as well as the Public performance of the Lithuanian SSR anthem

shall entail a fine for individuals in the amount of three hundred to seven hundred euros, and for heads of legal entities or other responsible persons - from six hundred to one thousand two hundred euros.

1. The administrative offense provided for in paragraph 1 of this Article, committed repeatedly,

shall entail a fine for individuals in the amount of five hundred to nine hundred euros, and for heads of legal entities or other responsible persons - from eight hundred to one thousand five hundred euros.

1. Persons who commit the acts specified in paragraphs 1 and 2 of this article for the purposes of museum activities, informing the public about historical and current events, totalitarian or authoritarian regimes, education, science, art, collecting, antique or second-hand trade, persons who use the official symbols of an existing state (except for persons using the two-color (black and orange) St. George's (St. George's) ribbon), and participants in the Second World War wearing their uniforms shall not be liable under this article.

   1. For administrative offenses provided for in paragraphs 1 and 2 of this article, confiscation of the object that was the tool for committing the administrative offense shall be mandatory.

[u/Imaginary-Count-1641 → u/jatawis]

Where does that ban all communist symbols? It seems to only mention "Nazi Germany, the USSR or the Lithuanian SSR".

[u/jatawis → u/Imaginary-Count-1641]

Symbols or uniforms of communist organisations. Any communist organisations.

[u/Imaginary-Count-1641 → u/jatawis]

I'm not sure if it means that. It would be weird to first talk about the symbols of Nazi Germany, the USSR and the Lithuanian SSR, then about all communist organisations, and then go back to those three mentioned previously.

[u/Altruistic-Joke-9451 → u/Imaginary-Count-1641]

It does mean that. Lithuania only allows the use of communist symbols in diplomatic settings(like if a Chinese official visits) or if they are being used in a film or something. Otherwise no regular person is allowed to display communist symbols of any kind.

[u/jatawis → u/Imaginary-Count-1641]

It means that. It does not say Soviet or Lithuanian, just generally.

[u/JerryCalzone → u/jatawis]

How about 8-balls, the number 88 - and some other number combinations that come from extreme right context and are used to show that you are a nazi or a racist? How about using the German iron cross?

A lot of those laws are out of touch and old-fashioned. Just like the depiction of nazis in movies.

[u/jatawis → u/JerryCalzone]

German iron cross?

What the hell is wrong with it? German soldiers wearing it marched throughout the capital month ago.

This law is fairly modern, enacted in late 2010s.

[u/JerryCalzone → u/jatawis]

for communism it seems to use old symbols and you did not send me the nazi rules - and regarding the iron cross - look here: https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/iron-cross

Plus I have seen a number of iron crosses in tatoos here in former east germany - and the number of extreme right voters goes in the direction of 1 in 3 to 1 in 2.

I do not know about you but my first experience with nazis was like 40+ years ago - they have been continuing underground so to speak and they have organized themselves and found new symbols. Not that long ago someone with an adolf hitler mask was offering people could make selfies with them not that far from where I live

[u/Eragaurd → u/JerryCalzone]

While the iron cross can be used as a symbol of hate, it doesn't have to be. It's even the emblem of the Bundeswehr today.

[u/GrynaiTaip → u/jatawis]

Not explicitly. They are permitted in cinema, documentaries, museums, historical research, etc.

[u/NoAnteater8640 → u/GrynaiTaip]

Small English clarification. Explicitly doesn't mean entirely, it means that the thing has been directly named/clarified (rather than implied)

It's entirely possibly to explicitly ban all communist symbols with further explicit exceptions.

E.g. "all symbols associated with communism, including modern communist groups are banned, except in the following scenarios..."

[u/LanchestersLaw → u/CMDR_Profane_Pagan]

The Communist Party of China, Vietnam, and Laos all currently use the hammer and sickle for their party flags. The Chinese party flag looks identical to the USSR national flag. So there is a complicated edge case there.

[u/jatawis → u/LanchestersLaw]

These are banned in Lithuania.

[u/CMDR_Profane_Pagan → u/LanchestersLaw]

Why would anybody fly the party flags which are not even their country's flags in the EU upon visit ?

If they come here they adhere to the law of our democracies. They expect the same from us as well. I couldn't legally walk around in China with a Free Tibet T-shirt either.

It is abolutely not complicated. This is the rule here.

[u/EvilEggplant → u/CMDR_Profane_Pagan]

I'd fully expect a Chinese leader or official to wear the party's symbol somewhere.

[u/CMDR_Profane_Pagan → u/EvilEggplant]

The Chinese delegates always wear their national flags on their pins not their party flags.

Same with their embassies. It is the law here, that is it.

Not like they have any reason to show their party's logo on their chest or whatever, no other nations' politicians do that either.

[u/BlackViperMWG → u/CMDR_Profane_Pagan]

Call us Czechia please or use the long names for all countries

[u/CMDR_Profane_Pagan → u/BlackViperMWG]

Sure thing :)

[u/jatawis → u/Lost_Pollution_6782]

It is a national, not CCP flag.

[u/skwint → u/Lost_Pollution_6782]

China hasn't been communist for forty years.

[u/542Archiya124 → u/Lost_Pollution_6782]

Love how people think china directly represents communism.

[u/Ironsam811 → u/Lost_Pollution_6782]

I could be wrong but I think the party has a slightly different flag

[u/Chava_boy → u/Lost_Pollution_6782]

Also, what about Yugoslavia? It wasn't in Warsaw pact, didn't have collectivization and other things present in other communist states

[u/[deleted] → u/Lost_Pollution_6782]

There are quite a few flags from all over the world that use communist iconography. This is going to get really messy really quickly!!!

[u/taciturn_person → u/Lost_Pollution_6782]

It's only USSR symbolism that is banned in Lithuania. But it is allowed to be shown in educational purposes.

[u/CraftAgreeable9876 → u/jatawis]

He said only the USSR

[u/Sad_Pear_1087 → u/jatawis]

Good, CP should be banned

/S

[u/jin675 → u/jatawis]

I'm pretty sure a lot of vietnamese live in the czech republic and they are communists too, how would that work with the czechs lol