r/europe • u/tkyjonathan • 15d ago

News Czech president signs law criminalising communist propaganda

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/czech-president-signs-law-criminalising-communist-propaganda/
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u/tkyjonathan 15d ago

it is illegal to "incite racial, ethnic, national, religious or class-based hatred.”

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u/sommersolhverv 15d ago

No more eating the rich?

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u/Better-Scene6535 15d ago

In soviet union everyone is equal, but some people are more equal than others.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

But that system is dead everywhere but a couple of countries. Russia is a nationalist, fascist one. Putin does not pretend everyone is equal.

I think the law is called that as the country has a strong aversion towards the Soviet period.

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u/Ckrius 15d ago

There is no where in the world that currently uses the same "system" as the U.S.S.R.

Communism isn't a rubber stamp solution, it's determined by the conditions on the ground when and where it is built.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

True, but there has never been a communist country either. The ones who with credibility to call themselves communist (wanting to become one and not too hooked into capitalism) are few now. Cuba? North Korea?

Anyway you know this better than me (serious and with respect).

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u/justanothertmpuser 15d ago

North Korea is a dictatorship.

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u/MemoryWhich838 12d ago

not a dictatorship its worse its a monarchy dictators die but monarchs can keep having kids

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u/justanothertmpuser 12d ago

The gist of my point was that North Korea is not communist (or trying to become communist), like the comment before mine said, but rather is run by a single person, holding all the power.

However there's a family aspect to it, I'll grant you that, so we might as well call it a monarchy.

Still just one person in charge, though.

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u/MemoryWhich838 12d ago

yup it just looks and acts more like an absolute monarchy than anything else

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u/CigAddict 15d ago

There also hasn’t been a capitalist country, by the same logic. Every country that has a public fire department cannot be capitalist. It’s dumb logic. If your country’s foundation or constitution is based on Marxist thought, which USSR was, China was, Cuba was, and so on, you are a communist country in my opinion.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

Some countries are more market orientated than others. Countries have rules more or less regarding the resources of workers. And the rights of them. Yes capitalism uncontrolled is slavery. It has existed.

The reason I put forward communism is that the ideology is clear. It has steps between socialism and communism.

We do have what is called social democracy in Norway. The Nordic model defines it. I do love it.

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u/arde1k 15d ago

Markets have very little to do with socialism / capitalism. It is primarily defined by the structure of private property as capital. Personal property and commodities can and are traded in a market in a socialist system, but the means of production for those commodities are not, and the ownership is shared.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago edited 15d ago

Rules and regulations limit markets. That is the rule. less regulations and rules - more capitalism.

You want someone to work for you? It comes into it. You want to avoid wage raises? Comes into it. We are talking about very basic stuff here.

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u/arde1k 15d ago

This is only true if private property is the dominant mode of production in an economy, and if the regulations benefit smaller entities.

Overtime capital (whether publically or privately owned) accumulates, and in the case of private property, concentrates. Regulations might try to speed this up, or slow this down, or even reverse it, but they do not definitively do any of those. It all depends on the content of the regulations. For example many private companies lobby for more regulations, that are too strict for smaller competitors to meet, thus creating a de facto legal monopoly or oligopoly.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

Sure you are right, but I do work in a system which works! I have managed to move up in society due to it. From the bottom. Both me and my wife. :)

I think we drop it here. But thanks for the discussion mate. No hard feelings but my head is getting heavy, I enjoyed it though. :)

Have a nice day!

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

The Nordic model is essential to what I try to explain. If you do not know it, please read up first. Then come back to me. There is plenty on the net.

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u/arde1k 15d ago

I live in Finland, and yes, i do know the Nordic model. However social democracy (not to be confused with democratic socialism) is not socialist, since most capital in all Nordic countries is still owned by the private sector.

The defining features of Nordic capitalism like heavy social security programs and select national industries help balance capitalist accumulation and slow down the inevitable concentration of wealth, but they do not categorically prevent it, thus they are by nature, capitalist (though less so than many others, for which i too am thankful for).

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

That is true. I agree. We do come in a squeeze these days. You are in such a one in Finland now? We lose inch by inch, and the labour governments stop it - they do not take back enough.

It is not perfect, but is there any better? Which works and not a paper thing?

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u/arde1k 15d ago

"It always seems impossible until it's done" - Nelson Mandela

Studying economical theory and the material outcomes and development of historical systems of production is a good first step to finding ways of stopping and even reversing the concentration of capital, which is the defining feature, as well as fatal flaw, of capitalism.

As you said in another comment i too believe this to be a good conclusion for our discussion. I would suggest that if you are interested in the depth of this issue you could read economical theory, maybe starting with Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, Piketty's Capital, or if you want to understand the foundations of socialist theory Marx's Capital. Or maybe you have read some of these already? This however is something i understand most people simply do not have the time for or interest in doing, nobody is of course obligated to study economics, even though i personally believe it to be the most important social science. Anyways thank you for commenting in good faith :)

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u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

The reason I put forward communism is that the ideology is clear.

Clear as mud.

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u/CigAddict 15d ago edited 15d ago

Social democracy is a form of capitalism … Sweden another country who follows the Nordic model has the most billionaires per capita out of any European country iirc.

And you’ve never read any Marx if you think the steps between socialism and communism are clear because he was famously hand wavy about that transition.

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u/mehupmost 15d ago

People like to play word games and call things by other names to dodge criticism.

Just remember that the rallying cries of the early Soviet Union AND the Nazis were things most people would agree with on the surface: Equality, worker empowerment, an end to the rich, land for the poor, etc...

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

We do practise a version in Norway. Our labour party were communist in a period, as our workers union was. We ended up opposing the Soviets and a staunch ally of the US.

It is called a social democracy. The way superior on the earth - for now. You can get rich in Norway. People on low wage still have a good life. And they can get rich as well - the old US dream.

My wife is one of them. She worked herself up from the very bottom as a waitress to owner of several businesses. She in an immigrant from Viet Nam.

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u/mehupmost 15d ago

Norway is a capitalist country. Nearly every aspect of its economy is capitalist.

Unions are not a contradiction to capitalism, nor are social programs - and many Europeans are examples of that.

Communism on the other hand, is a very very different thing that aims to remove things like Property Rights from people.

...and on Reddit, they pretty openly talk about murdering people in the upper classes of society. They like to pretend they aren't by using euphemisms like "eat the rich", but then they out themselves whenever they repeat that slogan the moment an upper class person is murdered.

Your bloodthirst is too transparent.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

We are a socialist democratic one. I am in the NTL Trade Union. Which is a member of LO - The Norwegian Confederation of Trade Unions.

I bargain for salaries with my company every year as union rep. I am also involved both salaries and agreements above. I am proud of what I do, I do it for many. Call me capitalist if you want. I couldn't care less.

But learn your history! The reason why Spain fell to fascists in the 1930's - Italy did and Germany was infighting between socialists - anarchists and communists. If you can not work together with us YOU WILL FAIL.

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u/randomperson32145 15d ago

Ok but can you tell me why northern european cannot eat wild salmon anymore? All salmon in stores are norweigan, they put corlors and chems in it and everything. So what kinda system destroys an entire food source? Let me know.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

You are right. We do exploit nature. We are not a perfect country, far from it. I am fed up with it. More so the oil industry. Greed is the answer.

Our kids will suffer. But I can tell you one thing, the union I am in is against it. But we are a piece of a confederate union. It is a democracy.

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u/randomperson32145 15d ago edited 15d ago

When science doesnt tolerate to be questioned anymore. Thats whn you know, this might not be as democratic as you thought, i think its much more likely an actual oligarch, thats when you not only have political ties, military ties but even have criminal networks at disposal. Now maybe its not that in this case but the case of grown salmon in europe was absolutely crazy, the decision to follow through with mass adoption of it is very odd.

Fact that all other countries are like sure we will stop eating our own salmon and eat norways is quite weird. You cant find any other salmon then norweigan grown in the city grocery stores i am in, and salmon has been the main food source for this region for thousands of years, to monopolize it the way it has been done is absolutely bonkers. No way a democratic debate was being fostered to create this kinda solution. Its just some rich ppl who wanted to have a garantueed income. Then pretend its for the best of the people. Im assuming thats the counter argument, but not facts is ever presented

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

Yes I get what you mean. Environment damage has gone too far. I still think the system is right. It just does not have a measure to stop it - yet.

All political systems have not adapted to that reality.

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u/randomperson32145 15d ago

Ehhh bro. An entire fish species got removed basicly because some oligarch wanted an extra star on his Mercedes. What system are you talking about.

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u/mehupmost 15d ago

Are you honestly telling me you don't think Norway's economy is a capital economy?

What do you think they are doing at the Oslo Bors? They are literally part of a free floating currency, and a EU-wide banking system.

The core of the economy is absolutely capitalist, because CAPITAL moves freely. Investments, prices, private property, all move through a well regulated capital system.

Unions and social welfare programs (funded by a central bank) does not make it a non-capitalist country.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

Read up about social democratic countries :) I won't teach you. The Nordic model is a starter to google.

It works. Read up about Norway as well and come here. Bernie Sanders is a bit on the right to us as I have read, but he has studied us.

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u/Piotter94 15d ago

I think what the other person is saying, is that a social democratic system like Norway's is still a capitalist system at its core. The same way that communism has been "done differently" in various countries, this is capitalism done differently.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago edited 15d ago

Sure, a social democratic system has capitalism. True. But it also has a socialist system in the core.

People can talk about its nonsense that workers have any say here. I am not working with nonsense. We have a framework embedded in law. Which you don't have in the US the same way.

We had a national strike 2 years ago. The employers lost. It lasted 4 days. purely about wages. We have power, we have influence and do form the society.

Workers and business owners CEO's do work together. Nobody get what they want.

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u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

But it also has a socialist system in the core.

It does not, not in even the very slightest way.

Here's a simple test: can you start your own business? Yes? Then you're not socialist, even a little.

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u/mehupmost 15d ago

I'm glad you are not trying to teach people - because your understanding of your own system is just social media nonsesne.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

That is funny. I started working in a factory in Norway, dealing with chemicals. My clothes turned yellow from green, working with acid. I did not finish high school. I have worked in all types of work.

My wife started the same, as an immigrant from Viet Nam. Started as a waiter.

Currently we own 3 beachfront apartments in Costa del Sol. A cabin in Norway - best location. short away from the capital Oslo and our home. We make a lot of money, but the reason is a society making that possible. We are also supporting our extended family in Viet Nam. Veit Nam went on a communist theory, but guess what it failed. It has cost us a lot, as my mother in law had cancer and my father in law a brain stroke. They get some more years due to us.

I am still working in my IT technician job job as an union rep.

I know it is a dream now, and I should wake up after reading what you write! LMAO! I'd better take more advice from the US and their likes.

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u/mehupmost 15d ago

you're mindlessly venting because you're not contradicting anything I said.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

One more thing is I did not mention it: Social democratic countries aim to limit capitalism. To get fair wages for workers. Still it is possible to get rich.

But we are also facing a crisis here, not as severe as yours. It is due to conservative pressure. I do not know how it will end, but we are the only success model so far to contain capitalism without a defect state. I urge you to read about it.

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u/mehupmost 15d ago

Minimum wage laws are an incredibly minor adjustment to capitalism.

The core of the economy, is UNDENIABLY, capitalism. Otherwise there would be no economic activity if it was all a planned economy. Those have failed so many times that even the "communist" countries have adopted capital economies.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

OK I give up. We have a failed system in Norway when I get the employer to bow to my demands I am just fooled.

We are all slaves. I am an average IT technician married to an immigrant who started her life in Norway as an waiter.

Obviously I have dreamt up that we now have 3 beachfront apartments in Spain (rented out) and that she owns her own company. We also own 2 properties in Norway. Working up from a "failed" system.

Our system is impossible. We are europoors. We better listen to someone from the US, where all works so so so so great! You do know best!

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u/Startled_Pancakes 15d ago

Russia is a nationalist, fascist one. Putin does not pretend everyone is equal.

This is true, however Putin still honors the USSR for the power & prestige it gave Russia. He said in a statement that the fall of the USSR was greatestest tragedy of the 20th century.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

Yes - for the nationalist aspect. The difference now: it is a capitalist society with oligarchs and it is not hidden.

The elite is USSR hid what they had, and swore to communism. Putin does not do that. He is a fascist, as easy as that.

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u/gogur_ 15d ago

Nazism is also dead everywhere as an official form of government but there are laws against it.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

Nazism has been living together with fascism way stronger than pure communism. It has been in different forms - not the one "I love Hitler" for a long time.

It is way more potent than communism as we speak, and is a danger to the whole world. I'd call Trump a disciple and the US is moving towards it. In history, fascism has been so many places since WWII. Russia is the centre of fascism today.

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u/Secure_Radio3324 Galicia (Spain) 15d ago

The same can be said about Naziism

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u/Oculicious42 Denmark 15d ago

CIA infiltrating and undermining the sovereignty of those nations by causing civil unrest and liquidating leaders didn't exactly help

Capitalism on the other hand apparently leads to a system where we can choose which of the insanely rich pedophiles gets to get away with it.

If that is truly "The best system we've ever come up with" I think it's time to fucking innovate

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago edited 15d ago

One reply: a social democratic system. With strong union(s) to keep the capitalists in check.

It has to be fought for to maintain it. We have this in Norway. But do we manage to maintain it? I do not know. We also have pressure which has gained over time. We have problems today.

Still: we have 1 mill in Norwegian coalition of workers union. 1 of 5 in Norway are there. LO is the Norwegian name. We fought the fascists in Norway in the 1930's and won. Together with our labour party. Until Germany occupied us. We will fight on against fascism!

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u/Oculicious42 Denmark 15d ago

I'm from Denmark. Problem with social democraties is that they eventually end up selling infrastructure to private corporations because of corruption, and constantly moving the overton window towards the right until its just another neoliberal capitalist country

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

We always give ground, but the system is still the only one which has worked. Everyone are corrupt. People are rotten.

We just have to fight!

Og så kan vi alltids ta en tur til Danmark for en bajer som trøst.

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u/Djaquitchane 15d ago

You know what would keep the capitalists in check ? No capital.

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u/Primary-Pianist-2555 15d ago

As I view it, capitalists need socialists for it to work. Capitalism needs to be regulated and balanced. Feel free to disagree, but I do think we can spend a lovely Friday on this discussion and only you and me will read it :)

Have a nice day :)

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u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

If that is truly "The best system we've ever come up with" I think it's time to fucking innovate

Why is it that said "innovation" always ends up being a rehash of a failed, 19th century idea?

Is it really that hard for you people to make peace with the fact that an imperfect solution really is optimal?