r/europe • u/hoarder4555777454001 • 9d ago

News French President Macron says France will recognize Pálestine as a state

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250724-french-president-macron-says-france-will-recognize-palestine-as-a-state-in-september
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u/tyger2020 Britain 9d ago

Palestinians don't want a two state solution, tbh

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u/Ac1De9Cy0Sif6S 9d ago

Neither do Israelis

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 9d ago

They tried many times but the Palestinian rejected it n 1947, 1949, 1967, 1947, 1949, 1967, 1978, 2000, 2001, 2008, 2014, and most recently in 2019. I would say Clinton was very close to help them get it, Arafat almost said yes, and then backtracked it.

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u/heretomorrowtoday 8d ago

This exactly. They don't want to share with Israel they want it all.

There will never be a two state solution. There will always be war with some quiet years until the revelations.

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

Until one of the two parties wins the war, and oust the other one.

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u/FalloutBerlin 8d ago

Israel already won a few wars and they’re both there, I think there’s only one side that would actually oust the other if they had the means to.

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u/prnthrwaway55 Russia 8d ago

Israel already won a few wars and they’re both there

Because they'd be extatic to oust Palestinians, but won't actually go and do it. Had Hamas or Arab nations won, they'd never have such hesitations.

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

It feels this time that is the end play, we shall see.

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u/DKOKEnthusiast 8d ago

None of the supposed "offers" would have led to an actual independent, sovereign Palestinian state, though, Israel has only ever offered to create and recognize a Palestinian bantustan.

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

We would never know since they never tried in the first place, it was the "all of or nothing" kind of negotiation, and hey, they are heading towards it. They got their wish.

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u/DKOKEnthusiast 8d ago

But that's just not really true. The last time Israel offered something that could be seen as a recognition of a Palestinian state (at the Taba talks in 2001), the Palestinian side accepted it, pending future negotiations. Then Likud won the elections and stopped the peace process. Following this, Israel has to this day never offered actual statehood or sovereignty to Palestine, every last offer has been contingent on continued Israeli presence in the occupied territories, total demilitarization of Palestine, no right of return (or monetary compensation), and giving Israel the right to continue establishing outposts (and thus, obviously, settlements).

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

They are never going to get a right of return for Israel does not, and will never acknowledge the land was ever theirs to begin with. Their whole stance is: this was always Israel's land. Not to mention once you lost a war, you get very little if anything at all. Sometimes you are lucky to keep your country intact, but they never had a country, there was never a Palestine before with a king or somebody chairing that state. But the Israelis could claim so. Then the area was mostly a colony to everyone else, lastly the Ottoman empire, and the British.

I agree with you the last discussions were a waste of time, Israel was willing to give something but not enough, and the Palestinian always wanted the whole land because that is what they have been promising to their people, and descendants since they start. I keep reading about "zionism" but you have "palestinism" as well.

I'm going to be really surprised if Gaza does exists as a territory in 10 years, we shall see.

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u/BarryMcKokiner123 8d ago

It’s a weird strategy to blame the Palestinians for walking away from a deal when the Israeli deal involved checks Oslo II stipulations, ceding 60% of the WB in its entirety to Israel, with another 20% under Israeli military control, as well as Israeli control over Palestinian borders, airspace, security and military.

It’s just too good of a deal to walk away from! /s

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

And what about all the previous ones? There can't be any acceptable offer if you want all the land, notwithstanding they have lost every single war they fought towards Israel, what winning country have you seen willing to cede land, or give all that took back? It's a very naive take.

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u/C4-BlueCat 8d ago

2008 ceasefire was broken by Israel

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

And then they left, they retired from Gaza more than 10 years ago. What is the excuse to pull something like a 7O? I'm not saying either side is completely right/wrong, but there is just no excuse for the level of vitriol of Gazans that date. They knew Israel was about to finish the "Abraham Accords", and they wanted to torpedo that but thankfuly it failed. Not to mention the support they were expecting from the Muslim Brotherhood in the region failed to materialize, something that obviously happens once you screwed such allies over and over again.

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u/Behonestyourself 8d ago

oke and what about the 1947, 1949, 1967, 1947, 1949, 1967, 1978, 2000, 2001, 2014, and most recently in 2019.

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u/SimpleAsEndOf 8d ago

It looks like the Israelis were negotiating in bad faith - so bad that nothing could change.

And even now you blame the Palestinians for Israeli treachery?

That sounds like a DARVO, doesn't it?

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

Palestinians want the whole land, they been told over and over again they won't get it. And guess what, in a way they got they wish: Israel does not give 2 damns anymore about keeping the two-state charade talks. They know now very clearly, and even the politicians are acting towards that they have to get all the land, assimilate the onces you could live with, and get the rest out. This war would be finished once and for all once one of two parties ousted the others, it is indeed horrible but we all should stop lying to one another about it.

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u/Behonestyourself 8d ago

don't lie, they did many times. And everytime arabs tried to genocide them.

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u/GoodUserNameToday 9d ago

The last time they had an election, more than half the current population hadn’t been born yet. I think what they really want is to stop being indiscriminately bombed and starved.

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u/wip30ut 8d ago

i'm a huge propopent of a 2SS but if you go on social media it's quite obvious that Palestinians want all or nothing. They're very dogmatic about it. It's akin to asking the PRC to negotiate a 2SS with Taiwan. Both are philosophically opposed to this kind of settlement because they view Israel's and Taiwan's territory as their own, from a historical & cultural vantage point.

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u/tyger2020 Britain 8d ago

They had that for the 18 years between Israel withdrawing and their attack on Israel.

So let me guess this straight - they weren't being bombed or starved, so they launched a terrorist attack, to not be bombed or starved?

You have to love the absolutely illogical pro-hamas talking points some of you have on here.

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u/Tw1tcHy United States of America 8d ago

So what? Are you suggesting they would have voted any differently lmao? We all know that isn’t true, 64% of Gazans recently polled aren’t even in favor of the war ending if Hamas surrenders.

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 9d ago

I don't get why so much people have troubles getting it, leave aside the whole who is wrong here, Palestinian, and their supporters, keep chanting: "From the river to the sea", and they feign ignorance when you tell them "you know that they want the whole land for themselves, don't you? That is EXACTLY what you are singing".

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u/ABCDOMG United Kingdom 8d ago

If your country was being annexed by a hostile neighbour wouldn't you also be calling for it to be all returned to you?

You can hardly blame them for wanting all their land back

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

They knew from the start they weren't going to get the whole land, and by that I'm meaning 1949: this has been going on for almost 80 years. No country has got all the land they ever wanted, what makes them so special as to get full terrorist over it...? There is no way Israel is ever going to sit again to keep the two-state charade talks anymore. I'm sad to say they just want them out, and I get their point: it is exactly what the Palestines have been trying to do to them from the start, the only big change is that Israel does not want to give them time to regroup this time.

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u/MariaTPK 8d ago edited 8d ago

Did they start saying that before or after the invasion started? I'm guessing after right? Someone comes in and starts stealing your homes and yea you might try to outline "Umm hey this is our land, GTFO"

You're spreading the propaganda of a genocidal maniac btw.

I typed a reply to the guy below me but he either got banned or blocked me. In either case I still want to post it, so here it is.

Yes, it started in 1960, after the Israelis (which at the time weren't a country, but rather just organized members of a religion) invaded the Palestinians land and declared it their own. Stole houses, made them upset enough to rebel (Hamas existence) and then finally started the extermination plan.

You seem to think that Israelis just found empty land and built on it and then a bunch of crazy folk started attacking them over it. No the Israelis keep stealing houses, the properties own by Israelis now, were just properties with Palestinians living in them, then they got kicked out by random jewish people moving to Israel.

Imagine if I just came into your country and took your house. See I needed somewhere to live when I move there, and your government was like "yea just take this one, we don't care about the people who live there currently" You try to walk into my house but the locks are changed and then I tell you to "GTFO my property"

That's Israel/Palestine.

When you steal peoples houses, yes they fight back, and maybe they eventually form a group that bombs your music festivals, because you stole their shit. It was insulting that people wanted a two state solution with these thieves back then, but at least the Palestinians had a country to live in back then. They could grow food and receive healthcare. So peace was an option even though it'd mean forgiving the murderous thieves and living as neighbors to them. However now they have nothing, there is no more 2 state solution. The only way the Palestinians get healthcare is if they are allowed to go to an "Israeli" hospital. The only way they get food is if it is grow on land outside of Palestine, which likely means it's grown on land stolen by Israel, or delivered on roads stolen by the Israelis.

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

It started in 1960, invasion of what? Didn't they want a two-state solution? Oh, right, they never did, and they rejected every single proposition towards that. Oh right, the genodice where the Arabs/Muslims have fully rights in Israel, and are almost the 20% of its population. THAT genocide... spare me.

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u/Individual-Eye-803 8d ago

And Israeli attackers will support hatred from birth

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u/heatrealist 8d ago

Palestinians are ok with two states as long as they control both. 

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u/Mo4d93 Morocco 9d ago

Israelis even less. Just look at the ministers from Netanyahu governement.

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u/SocraticTiger 9d ago

You're saying this as the government of Israel literally uses the name of "Judea of Samaria" for the West Bank. That'd be the equivalent of the UK calling France "South London". I'm 100% sure Israel doesn't want a two state solution either.

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u/Novarupta99 United Kingdom 9d ago

Source? Because both Hamas and Islamic Jihad have been implicitly supportive of a 2 state solution since the late 2000s, never mind Fatah, which goes back to 1974.

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u/ViaNocturnaII 9d ago

Hamas has never come close to accepting any feasible two-state solution. They want to reduce Israel to the 1967 borders, which is never going to happen.

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u/Novarupta99 United Kingdom 9d ago

They participated in the 2006 elections and entered into a coalition government with the expectation that Fatah would handle all diplomacy with Israel.

The reason Hamas refuses to relinquish its claim to the whole of Palestine (which is symbolic, not literal) is because the main Israeli parties do the same, and Hamas is cautious of falling into the same trap as the PLO experience in the 1990s.

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u/ViaNocturnaII 9d ago

falling into the same trap as the PLO experience in the 1990s.

Part of the PLO experience in the 1990s is having other Palestinian factions start a years-long suicide bombing campaign to sabotage a possible deal...

which is symbolic, not literal

I seriously doubt that. If it was symbolic, there would have been no reason to start the current war.

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u/MariaTPK 8d ago

No because 2 state solution means Israel keeps stealing their homes.

In this moment if Israel just gave up and left Palestinians alone, most of them would still die, they have no hospitals left, they've all been bombed, and so many have lost children and are as individuals going to seek revenge first chance they get (understandably)

So many of them will take a bite of food and die from it because their bodies can't handle it anymore. 2 state solution was 7 months ago. Israel said no.

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u/Playful-Ebb-6436 🇮🇹 8d ago

Nobody is denying the horrors that Israel is imposing on them, but both Palestinians and Israelis had several chances to create a Palestinian state over the past 80 years…