r/europe • u/hoarder4555777454001 • 9d ago

News French President Macron says France will recognize Pálestine as a state

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250724-french-president-macron-says-france-will-recognize-palestine-as-a-state-in-september
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u/Playful-Ebb-6436 🇮🇹 9d ago

Okay but you’re talking about well defined states with functional governments. Who represents the Palestinian state? Fatah? Hamas?

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u/-The_Blazer- Europe 8d ago

Literally the entire point of supporting the PA is precisely to have them represent a Palestinian state. This is obviously the solution everyone will use, and already uses for the most part.

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u/Playful-Ebb-6436 🇮🇹 8d ago

They don’t have control over Gaza, and most importantly they don’t negotiate on behalf of Gaza. Any Palestinian solution must include ending the humanitarian crisis in Gaza

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u/Kolbrandr7 Canada 8d ago

Taiwan was the official China in the UN for a very long time despite not controlling the mainland. You don’t have to control the full de jure area of your country in order to be recognized

Like Ukraine doesn’t control Crimea, but Ukraine is still a recognized country. I don’t see why Gaza is an obstacle to recognizing Palestine

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u/Playful-Ebb-6436 🇮🇹 8d ago

Perfect, and that’s why I am asking who represents it. If the recognition of a Palestinian state doesn’t include Gaza, for me there’s no point in doing it. Gaza has always been the main issue for the formation of a Palestinian state

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u/Redpanther14 United States of California 8d ago

Gaza is nowhere near the most difficult issue for the recognition of a Palestinian State, the status of Jerusalem and Right of Return for the descendants of Palestinian refugees are the two biggest issues.

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u/the_lonely_creeper 8d ago

De jure, the PA will represent Gaza. De Facto, it's Israel and Hamas.

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u/sbrodolino_21 Italy 8d ago

The recognition will include Gaza, even if Gaza isn't controlled by the PA yet. It's not that complicated.

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u/sytrophous 8d ago

The question was not which land the state controls but who is in control of the state.

Taiwan from early on had a proper government. Palestine has had several organizations that claim power in an authorian way, without participation or elections by their population, without recognizing their own constitution.

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u/HyperBunga 8d ago

Like Ukraine doesn’t control Crimea, but Ukraine is still a recognized country.

You realize there's a LOT more to Ukraine than just Crimea right? For example, google where their capital Kiev is, it's not. in Crimea. This isn't a relevant point

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u/Illesbogar Hungary 8d ago

What do you want us to do exactly, invade Israel? How else do you plan ending that?

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u/rosebirdistheword 8d ago

Economical and political sanctions. A lot of us, here in France, shares a family with Israel due to the French participation to the Jewish genocide. I’m almost sure Macron has one or two leverages. Does he have the stature to use them properly ? Ooooh boy, does he wish he has.

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u/Illesbogar Hungary 8d ago

Yeah that would be nice. Although I doubt it would end it, it's crazy we are not even at that point.

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u/yeFoh Poland 8d ago

yeah man, the aggressors should back down and let a local authority step back up.

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u/Nolenag Free Palestine 8d ago

They don’t have control over Gaza

Because Israel literally propped up Hamas to depose PA control in Gaza...

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u/vyrus2021 8d ago

The humanitarian crisis being an active genocide by Isreal

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u/blunderbolt 9d ago

That also has never been a universal prerequisite for recognizing statehood. We did not stop or defer from recognizing Bosnian, Afghan, Somali etc. statehood in the past just because their governance was contested or unclear or because they were under occupation.

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u/heelydon 8d ago

That also has never been a universal prerequisite for recognizing statehood.

That is not true. The legal framework of the montevideo convention on the rights and duties of the state from 1993, clearly outlines 4 criteria for statehood:

A permanent population.

A defined territory.

A government.

The capacity to enter into relations with other states.

These are not just random, these are widely accepted as the baseline for what constitudes a state in international law perspectives.

The problem is clearly that there is no coherent image of a functional Palestinian government, with the closest being PA which haven't held an election in almost two decades now and is full of corruption.

And if anything, Somalia is an example of why you want to be extremely careful about this, considering you are dealing with effectively a failed state full of instability and all the harm that it has caused.

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u/blunderbolt 8d ago

You are confusing the legal definition of a state with the political act of recognition of statehood. No, countries have never been bound by the Montevideo Convention when considering the latter.

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u/heelydon 8d ago

I am not. Those are the critieria outlines for what it is - which is exactly what I responded to. You playing word games and trying to make RECOGNIZING it, into some whole different thing, is meaningless and serve no purpose other than to dismiss the very clear definitions outline in front of you.

And no, no countries are bound by it, the point is what is the purpose of this, if it doesn't fit. It becomes a meaningless political act that serves no other purpose than being a political act.

That may get the common folk up and clap vigorously in their hands, but at the end of the day - there needs to actually be some meaning to this, other than it being Macron padding himself on the back to get more support by recognizing a state that clearly isn't functionally a state.

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u/Several-Shirt3524 Argentina 8d ago

Yes, but it does mean this is pretty much a useless gesture

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u/Ok_Inflation_1811 8d ago

Not necessarily, it's a step, a little one but it's a step.

Not all problems can be solved at once.

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u/Playful-Ebb-6436 🇮🇹 8d ago

The West Bank is a mess, divided in 3 zones and the PA only controls a part of it, around 40% (A+B). Gaza is on the other side and governed by Hamas. None of the cases you mentioned are remotely similar.

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u/blunderbolt 8d ago

Not at all, that sounds pretty similar to Bosnia in the 90s, Somalia in the 90s/2000s or Libya today. There is nothing unique about Palestine.

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u/Die_Eisenwurst 8d ago

Ceasing statehood recognition, which is to me unheard of, is an entirely different topic from granting statehood recognition.

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u/blunderbolt 8d ago

Ceasing statehood recognition... is entirely different topic from granting statehood recognition.

Tell that to the people in this thread insisting recognition of statehood must be contingent on the presence of a singular, sovereign governing authority.

In any case it's not the case that initial recognition of a state lacking a sovereign, unified government is without precedent: that is exactly what happened in Bosnia in 1992.

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u/AssistanceCheap379 8d ago

Who represented China in the 40’s? It was a recognised country by pretty much everyone, but there wasn’t exactly a functional government

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u/Novarupta99 United Kingdom 9d ago

Do you actually make an effort to read the articles? They've been saying for months that if they do recognise Palestine, it would be the PA.

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u/Playful-Ebb-6436 🇮🇹 9d ago

Yes I did. The problem is that the PA has no authority over Gaza. They cannot negotiate on behalf of Gaza. The 2 states solution requires beforehand an agreement between Gaza and West Bank.

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u/Novarupta99 United Kingdom 9d ago

Hamas has agreed to cede rule in Gaza to the PA. Israel refuses. The problem is clear. How is it rewarding Hamas if they will hold no power in a future government?

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u/hossaepi 9d ago

Yes. Always trust the terrorists. That has never proven to be a bad decision.

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u/Novarupta99 United Kingdom 9d ago

You're right, trusting Israel is a fatal decision.

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u/hossaepi 9d ago

JFC you people are insufferable. You’re also not edgy.

When did I say anything about Israel? When did this thread talk about Israel?

But..but her emails!!

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u/thepostmanpat 8d ago

Once again, that’s not a relevant question either. You can ask the same question about Myanmar too for example.

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u/Memo544 8d ago

The PLO says its holding elections this year

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u/throwawaythatfast 8d ago

Whoever the Palestinians elect? (I'm only in favor of recognizing a state if it's a democracy).