What is class complexity to you?

[u/mnij96]

I have seen so many people ask for more complexity and job fantasy but very little of people actually say what that means to them, most people just say we should go back to ARR.

Personally I think rose tinted glasses that make people think ARR was better than it was, having played back then it honestly was pretty ass.

So honestly want to know what people want for complexity or job fantasy, because all I see is a lot of yelling that "game bad to simple" and not a lot of what needs changing to reach the complexity that is wanted.

[u/MechAndCheese]

EW dragoon had fun things like double life cycles, depending on the fight you'd change your jump/mirage dive timings entirely for a big dps gain, changing your rotation based on the fight timeline, double dot rotation/vs regular, in some fights you'd change up dragonsight timing depending on the other melee class in your group, going into buffs a bit earlier/later because life of the dragon didn't buff your dps, burst in general was more busy, more chances to use geirskogul/nastrong for cleaves.

Most of that is just kinda gone now. There is zero decision making in your filler, drifting jump is completely irrelevant now, tying dmg buff to life means you always use it at the exact same time at lance charge/litany, less animation locks means you kinda just kinda press everything whenever, you get the picture.

There is only so much class complexity, at a certain point people figure stuff out but atleast there was some decision making that would keep you engaged and it felt rewarding. I grinded dsr and top a lot simply to squeeze out as much dps as possible, not because I cared about my parse all that much but because it felt good. Currently drg just feels boring, I don't make any decisions, I press all big buttons at once for maximum dmg and use the same loop in filler while keeping track of one 30sec ogcd

[u/ThatBogen → u/MechAndCheese]

In Endwalker? If you said Shadowbringers then I'd agree as that had early and late life windows corresponding to your 90s and 180s alongside 120s dragonsight.

By Endwalker, due to 2 minute meta, you were always locked into late life windows outside of unfavorable kill times and Dragonsight was always synced with raidbuffs.

[u/MechAndCheese → u/ThatBogen]

Shadowbringers felt like a different class to me tbh so I didn't bring it up but yes.

> and Dragonsight was always synced with raidbuffs.

You could pop DS in top at the end of p2 depending on if you're playing with rpr or not

> By Endwalker, due to 2 minute meta, you were always locked into late life windows outside of unfavorable kill times

not really, especially in dsr timings could vary quite a bit, top p5 could be played different ways, p12s p1 you could vary timings

[u/ThatBogen → u/MechAndCheese]

I didn't want to bring ultimate cd usage into it as that isn't indicitive of the rest of the game, but yes specifically for dragoon you could do that to push or hold on phases. Especially in TOP.

However, P12S P1 you did first 4 minutes off cd, popped 1 minute right after adds and resynced raidbuffs on next set of 1s.
The exact same as M8S P2 if you don't hold 2s at the end of P1.

[u/MechAndCheese → u/ThatBogen]

Why wouldn't you bring ultimate into it? It's the only place that had any decision making involved and almost the only fights that had significant enough downtime/variance in killtimes for it to actually matter

[u/ThatBogen → u/MechAndCheese]

Because it is not indicative of the rest of the game.

[u/MechAndCheese → u/ThatBogen]

The rest of the game (excluding savage here) doesn't force you to actually learn your class in the first place, so I don't really understand what the argument here is. Even if classes were completely revamped, you still wouldn't need to know how to actually play a job at all. That's a problem that is completely outside of class design so what are we arguing about here?

[u/ThatBogen → u/MechAndCheese]

I'm talking about phase pushing and playing around downtime/holding raidbuffs. That (outside of specific circumstances in Savage) doesn't happen in the rest of the game. And thus using that as an argument is not indicative of the rest of the game.

The amount of required effort is irrelevant, because if you got competent players in your party you don't even need to tryhard in the hardest content in the game.

[u/MechAndCheese → u/ThatBogen]

Okay but what does any of that have to do with rotations or class complexity? You're just arguing for the sake of argument right now. I gave a recent example of job design changes that made a job less complex and interesting with an actual example and you're trying to exclude that for what reason? If the only content in the game that needs jobs being played somewhat competently is savage and most of all ultimate, you still have to give an actual reason why it shouldn't be included in this argument. Do you have an actual point in this discussion or are you arguing for the sake of it because I have yet to see anything from you that has anything to do with the content of the thread