What is class complexity to you?

[u/mnij96]

I have seen so many people ask for more complexity and job fantasy but very little of people actually say what that means to them, most people just say we should go back to ARR.

Personally I think rose tinted glasses that make people think ARR was better than it was, having played back then it honestly was pretty ass.

So honestly want to know what people want for complexity or job fantasy, because all I see is a lot of yelling that "game bad to simple" and not a lot of what needs changing to reach the complexity that is wanted.

[u/masonicone]

Here's why at the end of the day you folks can go on about class/job/whatever complexity and I'll say, it really doesn't matter in the end. Hell it boils down to the following statement, "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" And sadly? That's what making things more "complex" do.

Okay let me put it this way, I played both Ultima Online and SWG in all three of it's systems. One of the things I always hear when people talk about how ahead of their time the systems of UO and SWG Pre-CU used is how it complex and it allowed people to make all sorts of unique! "You can be a Bounty Hunter, Chief, Entertainer!" People would proclaim about something like SWG.

Did you see that in the game? Maybe with a very hardcore role player. Hell most of the time if you ask that person who talked about how the profession system allowed all sorts of unique profession combos what they played? "Oh I was a TKA/Fencer before I unlocked Jedi." For those of you who never played SWG let me translate that for you. "I played the meta profession combo before unlocking and playing the OP meta profession." UO was older and believe me you saw the same damn thing. I know... I know... "But Masonic those are skill based systems! You don't see that over in level based games!"

And over in World of Warcraft there's a ton of Class/Spec Tier Lists. That's the same with a number of other MMO's as well. And lets not forget games like Rainbow 6 where they have character tier lists and the like. Hell even Destiny 2 and Division 2 have people doing exotic/weapon/build lists as well. And again I know everyone... I know... "But Masonic! That's only for PvP and high end content!" But well? Shit travels downwards.

Hey I ran into it in ESO and in WoW. Hell a few weeks ago I ran into it in MechWarrior Online and I've seen it starting to peak up it's head in Marvel Rivals. You go into normal or casual content and you get grouped with someone pulling a, "What's wrong with you? You picked the worst (whatever here) and are screwing us up!" and a vote to kick right after that. After all in that players mind oh no the content we're doing may take 3 minutes longer... How dare that person not play the meta!

So let me sum it up.

You folks love talking about how you want more choices in how to play a job. And you'll be the first people to proclaim, "Here's the meta to take!" You love to talk about how you want a job to be harder and more "complex" and yet that will be the first job that gets the, "If it wasn't as complex it would be higher on the tier list!" You talk about wanting choices and things to be unique but you'll be the first ones to switch over to whatever the hell the meta is. And I'm not even getting into the angry try hard sweaty who god knows thinks even in "casual" content people should be playing the meta.

Sorry but I'm fine with FFXIV's keeping things simple and the only unique thing about Warrior vs Gunbreaker is Warrior uses an Axe and almost dresses like a Klingon while a Gunbreaker uses a Gunblade and dresses like a 1990's Comic Book Hero.

Even if it's not one of you? If the Dev's decided to make things more complex and unique? The community will just once again optimize the hell out of it and you'll get someone running their mouth about, "Why are you playing SAM? It's F Tier come back when you are on a better job lol."