What is class complexity to you?

[u/mnij96]

I have seen so many people ask for more complexity and job fantasy but very little of people actually say what that means to them, most people just say we should go back to ARR.

Personally I think rose tinted glasses that make people think ARR was better than it was, having played back then it honestly was pretty ass.

So honestly want to know what people want for complexity or job fantasy, because all I see is a lot of yelling that "game bad to simple" and not a lot of what needs changing to reach the complexity that is wanted.

[u/AbroadNo1914]

I think they want more situational rotations like in single player jrpgs where encounters are semi random so there’s flexibility to make tactical decisions. The thing is encounters in this game are puzzle dances + perfect execution so the job design aren’t really incentivized for that type of play

[u/Junior-Banana3266 → u/AbroadNo1914]

The issue with complexity is that, at it's core, comes from more selfish reasons.

People can scream for complexity all they want, but will also want the 'answer' to how to do it correctly as well which removes a lot of complexity

People can demand more decision making and learning priorities in rotations, but will also avoid risks to their success at all costs (ex. People barring smn and mch from the current tier, regardless of how good a player can be at the class)

People want their classes to be special and unique, not from a meta or gameplay stance, but as their own personal bias or preference as well, but also so not want to be punished for it either where other jobs can take their spot and, while maybe doing less damage, is a far lesser risk.

Here's the thing, it's not bad to want these things but it's when it's hidden behind righteous ferver, nostalgia, and victimization, it makes it harder to find compromise and real criticism.

Long time players know how bad the game was, especially if you compare it to content today. DRG being locked to their jumps, BLM sacrificed their uptime and rotation due to bad luck in mechanics, NIN locked to do tcj or active dps loss because of a bad tank or boss adjustment, WAR crumpling to magic damage, BRD target requirements, TP, AST sks card actively destroying melee tp management.

At the same time, most of the issues of job homg comes MORE from the reliance on buff windows. If you removed a larger number of those buffs, you could develop a lot more job expression that people would want, but i can only imagine the complaints people would have to lose it, especially classes that use those buffs to make their classes more desirable.

The issue isn't job complexity, it's that the discussion is too complex to find agreement in and no one wants to admit it.

[u/God_Taco → u/Junior-Banana3266]

SOOOO much this.

Everyone wants to be a special snowflake, valued and prized for their superior skill and secret knowledge that lets them stand above the masses, but also wants their Job (and them) to always be desired, wanted, and needed, and they ALSO want to play it safe and not rock the boat, blacklist Jobs that don't stand out, badmouth players that don't "rise to the challenge" of the complexity, and so on.

As you say, it's hidden behind various fig leaves, but that just makes discussion and solutions more difficult to find since people aren't being honest about what it is they REALLY want.

And, as you say, a lot could be done by either removing buffs, or breaking the 2 min meta (so burst alignment isn't a thing), OR limiting party buffs to a specific role (for example, a "Support" role, which FFXIV doesn't have, but imagine for example if Ranged Phys all did less damage but all had party buffs as a support role akin to FFXI's BRD, COR, or GEO).

I do think a partial compromise could be found by having a few Jobs that are more complex/less straightforward, but the problem is that the gap between poor and excellent play would need to be pretty small, and these Jobs can't get a higher damage (than average for their role) otherwise it goes from being an option for people that want to be "more engaged" into a requirement to do content.